There is historical proof. A Jewish historian called Josephus wrote about Jesus. In one of his writings he admits hearing of the wonderous works of Jesus. He had not seen them personally, but was hearing from witnesses who had. It appears he was never a follower and was writing about what he had heard.

Warrior said [quote]Discernment is not judgement. I discern that lack of a moral compass is untrustworthy./quote]

I agree with almost everything Warrior posts, but not this. I think it is completely unfair. No disagreement that lack of a moral compass is untrustworthy. It's your apparent judgement that I don't have a moral compass because I don't believe the same things you believe regarding a supreme being that I have issue with.

EdP, read some of the post the people that are judging you have posted and see what kind of moral compass they must have.

I never cease to be amazed at the world we live in and the universe. If I look up into the sky, I ask myself: "Where does it end?" "Where did God come from in the first place?".
I don't know and pretty sure no one else does either. I was told as a kid that God "just was". Blows my mind.

I still have half a bag of popcorn left...... please continue

As Christians, we are called to spread the Good news. But not in a forceful or mean spirited way. That easily turns people off to everything we are trying to accomplish. We must be kind and understanding. And if we are denied we shall pray and move on.

Was reading an article posted by an atheist who became a believer over the span of time and his commentary is laid out very well. Here's a snippet of it that helps us to remember that all of us were once far off, and in that remembrance we find a more humble heart....

"After going to church, I realized I’d done to Christianity exactly what I’d accused religion of doing to the world. I oversimplified and misrepresented it because I missed a key piece of data: “There is salvation in no one else” but Jesus (Acts 4:12). The most controversial yet fundamental claim in the Christian faith is that Jesus alone has accomplished everything necessary for the salvation of all who believe in him. For this reason, he must be trusted. This doctrine separates Christianity from every other worldview, and it unites every other doctrine within our faith. What’s the Ground for Morality? Before I became a Christian, I had a strictly physicalist worldview that left no room for objective moral principles. My biggest objection to such principles was that they’d require some absolute standard that transcended the physical universe. In conversations with people who believed in transcendence, I found no one who had a sufficient basis for believing in objective moral standards. Among the few religious friends I had, none could give a good reason why some people go to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) and others go to heaven. I concluded that the reason they drew the line between “good” and “evil” where they did was to convince themselves they were on the “good” side."

The doctrine of Exclusivity in Christianity does separate it from all other religions and for that we Praise God.
The lost call it unfair.
The redeemed call it grace.

Blessings,
Mark

What are you saved from? Your gods wrath if I understand it correctly? If your unable to believe he sets you on fire? Nothing crazy about that I guess.

Good question danny. The Heck fire preaching era of the later 1800's and early 1900's trying to get those darn folks back into church who bought into Darwinism of the 19th century is long gone.
It was a preaching effort to bring 'em back! It didn't work then and it doesn't work now, but some still try to use it (regrettably most today say).
It was a not so good idea by good folks trying their best (we can imagine).
But, it's not the true Gospel Hope however.. these heck fire preachers calling people to repent and be saved from the inferno Lake of Fire.

Scripture depicts the Gospel Hope being an eternity with God.
The opposite camp is an eternity apart from God.

Blessings,
Mark

NOT finding the treasure.

I somewhat disagree with you Mark. I think the full story is necessary. One must not only know of the the Lamb of God but also of the Lion of Judah. All I know as pertaining to your question Danny is that "God is light, and there is no darkness in Him." So I reckon we are being saved from ourselves.

I agree with you JS but the Western theology, especially in America, is so fully immersed in Salvation (justification) that the rest of God's story gets lost on us.
Wrath? God's wrath? The doctrine of human depravity and the consequences of it. I'm all in.

But danny usually posts about the fire and the lake and the torment and such, so my comment wasn't meant to diminish the story of the Lamb returning as the Lion, but rather how those who teach and preach and evangelize should approach those who are far off.

"In Him was life and the life was the Light of men" (Jn 1:4) is my go to verse most often for those I meet with and who are far off. Their life isn't going very well, and it seems pretty dark, and the heck fire approach some I've been with use (with those far off) is off-putting as I watch discussions unfold. I can't land that plane as they say. I'm a Light casts out the dark preacher I guess.

Blessings,
Mark

I post about fire because you post constantly about salvation. Salvation from "writhing in the pit of fire". The pit of fire according to your book, your god created so that you need salvation from it.

Im done now. just get sick of being told I am second rate for not being able to believe something so ludicrous.

Danny, I must have missed that post, can you point it out for me? Thanks.

Hobbie, I like reading your stuff so I will reply. refers to every revival preacher I watched as a kid putting on his show

You seem to be a decent man Danny. As a believer myself I wish I could get you to take more time to look at Christianity. I don't think I am any better than you are though. If I am correct you were kinda scorned by past Christian educators? This is why I said we as Christians can't be pushy and high and mighty with spreading the word of God.

Wasn't there a thread on Revelation recently? What's the gist of the book? Flee from the wrath to come. If anything, modern evangelicals have watered down the message to the point you have more tares filling the pews than wheat.

Yes, it's true, God is love. But Got hates sin and it's not the sin that's thrown into the lake of fire, it's the sinner.

What is the beginning of wisdom?

This is my favorite response thus far, so I'll humbly offer my services to your cause.

I'll admit that I didn't watch any of the videos, and I didn't read the thread very thoroughly. Sorry if that puts me off base on anything I'm saying. This thread seemed mostly contentious and unproductive, and I didn't see a way to help it along, so I'd been leaving it alone. The issue that got me interested is below, but, regarding the original premise (as far as I can tell having not actually watched the videos), I suppose one could agree with the premise on a strictly philosophical level. It seems to me that this premise is actually how almost everyone in the world operates, and it's precisely what Jesus (and the Scriptures) are warning us against. Within ANY worldview, there is a definition of what is good and what is evil. Anyone operating outside the realm of good (as defined by my religion/worldview/life philosophy/politics) is operating in the realm of evil. WE are the good guys, THEY are the bad. THEY should be eliminated. Christianity does acknowledge God's definition of good and evil as the only standard, but it is opposed to the us/them moral dichotomy. It posits that EVERYONE has been corrupted BY evil, and God's desire is to rescue ALL of us FROM evil. The dichotomy isn't between good people and bad people. It's between all people and God, and this God would rather heal and forgive than eliminate and destroy (though that's not to say He won't). He would rather invite people into the realm of good than destroy them because they aren't already there. With that out of the way, I'll get to the comment I actually wanted to address:


First, a caveat, everything I'm going to say here is necessarily, and unfortunately, an oversimplification. If you want the complete picture, you have to read the book and try to understand the context and significance over and over and over again, ideally with other people too. Some of what I'm about to say may make some believers uncomfortable as well. Sorry. Don't take my word for it. Read your Bible, and if you still think I'm wrong, then let's talk.

What are we saved from? There are several right answers: death, sin, wrath, (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), ourselves. In the Bible all of these things are interconnected, maybe nearly synonymous. It sounds like you want to address the issues of HelI and wrath, so I want to briefly throw out some misconceptions and throw in some biblical concepts to replace them. First, HelI. We think of Heaven and HelI as the primary biblical dichotomy. It's not. The Bible very clearly starts with a unity (not a dichotomy at all) of Heaven and Earth. Humans, in their realm of responsibility (Earth) rebel (with a mysterious evil being) against Heaven (God's realm), thus creating a dichotomy: Heaven and Earth. HelI is a human creation. It's the reality that we create on Earth apart from Heaven. It comes much later in the story, and is actually (don't freak out) a metaphor. The word literally denotes a valley outside of Jerusalem. You can get a plane ticket and tour the place today. HelI is an English transliteration of the Greek "gahenna" which is a transliteration of the Hebrew "ge hinnom" meaning the Hinnom Valley. Saying it is a metaphor does not mean it isn't a real thing. Rather, it is an strong image that is used to describe a real thing that is too strong for plain language. In the Hinnom Valley, the kings of Israel sacrificed their children and burned their them on altars to Molech. Those events were so horrific, so horrifying, that the prophets used the idea to describe what would happen to the people who committed those and similar acts. I don't know how detailed we can get here today, but the basic idea is that when humans chose to set up their own kingdoms apart from Yahweh, and often with other gods, those kingdoms become HelI. It's not where God punishes, burns, and kills us. It's where we punish, burn, and kill each other. The interesting thing about God's wrath in the Bible is that most of the time (not all, but most), it is simply God handing humans over to their own destruction. God doesn't send people to HelI. He offers them a way out, but allows them to stay there if they'd rather. There is often fiery and fantastic language around God's wrathful events in the Bible, but if you read closely, it's usually God staying out of the way when it comes to human business-as-usual. Just one example: When Babylon falls, you read poetry about a darkened sky, earthquakes, stars falling from heaven, but if you were alive at that time and saw it, it would simply look like a Persian army. Or in the same way, when you read the Revelation, the four "horsemen of the Apocalypse" are conquest, war, famine, and death - just another day among the kingdoms of this earth. HelI and wrath are simply life apart from God's rule, and the hope is that in the end Heaven and Earth will be reunited and that HelI will be contained so it can no longer corrupt and destroy God's good world. Death will not have the last word. That's the image in the end of Revelation. The source of evil and those who would rather serve him don't get to participate in the Kingdom of Heaven. They get to continue building and living in their own kingdom, and that looks like a fiery death, just like we saw way back in Hinnom.

PS - if any of you are motivated enough to read about HelI in your Bibles, always check the original Hebrew. Several modern translations have, unfortunately, used the English "helI" to translate the Hebrew "Sheol". Sheol is simply the grave, or the realm of the dead. It's very different from wrath-and-judgement HelI.

jrt did an excellent job laying out the answers and if we're gonna dive in a bit deeper, I'm game. Topics like this relate to those vital and real things in life and it's great so many have chimed in.

As to
I usually munch bag with butter and no salt but some people prefer salt and not butter. You see how some times the individual preferences and opinions can rally around a theme of "popcorn is delicious" while realizing delicious has variances based on people's preferences. Same with theology. God is the standard. Humans are God's creation. With that as our compass point, we aim to figure things out the best we can in community. There's more Scripture surrounding fellowship and unity of the believers in the Bible than passages about Heaven and Hel_.



Jrt's comments were again very strong in answering danny's questions with biblical truth. And we can take another angle from the eyes of the secular world and “Imagine there’s no heaven, it’s easy if you try,” John Lennon sang, “no (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) below us, above us only sky.” This world famous song imagines a world with no religion to divide people or national borders to defend against other folks.... all with a beetlemania assumption that unity and peace would result "if" religion and borders were banished for good.

Why does Lennon, an atheist, dream of not having any heaven? It seems, according to his song lyrics, he yearned for the “The world to be as one” and as good, but John Lennon found out in a horrific example of how the world isn't always unified and it sure isn't always good.

So the Christian can imagine a place of gladness and serenity not interrupted by evil and human sin, but believers have to know a few things, according to God's Word and how things are laid/spelled out to put it all in formation.

First, if heaven exists, we’re not presently in it. The world we live in is characterized by life and death, love and hate, laughing and crying, dancing and mourning, peace and war (Eccl. 3:1–8). Good things come and then good things fade away quite often. It's how the world is, and how the world will continue to be. No politician, no beatlemania, no new law, or any Christian organization for that matter can make the world come together as one.

Second, if heaven exists we’re not fit for it. There's never been a person who never grew old, got along with everybody, never have a violent thought or lazy attitude, or didn't try to cheat someone outta something. Every person on earth will experience joy and love, and peace, but also anger, guilt, regret, and fear. The interruptions live around us and effect us as much as they live inside of us.

Embracing the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ awakens us to the truth that we’re not fit—physically or spiritually—to experience what our hearts can imagine, and in that realization we can reflect on how Jesus brings good news to troubled hearts.

The Lord Jesus said:

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going. I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:1–6)

So danny's question is a really good question and one that's been pondered by every person who's ever heard the name Jesus. It's not what God plans to do to us as much as what God has already done for us with the ultimate life line.

"Imagine there's no heaven, it's really sad if you try," is how I view John Lennon's song lyrics, knowing that putting all your eggs in the human quest of Utopia on earth simply gets you more of the same old same old.

There are only two destinations in the biblical narrative.
One is an eternity with God and the rest of the saints.
The other is an eternity apart from God along with those who are not saints.

Blessings!
Mark