Atheism is inherently evil in both definition and

https://www.theblaze.com/news/sam-h...ACTIVE%20LIST%20-%207%20Day%20Engagement

Its a belief in nothing.

What if you believe in something and it turns out not to be true.

Atheism is not a belief in nothing, or the belief that there is no God. Atheism is the denial of the existence of God.

Big difference.

You'd have to believe there is a God to deny existence, no?

Sam is right IMHO. They are taking what he said out of context, as usual. Of course he wasn't hoping more kids died. And he's right about Trump.
Blaze media, just another conspiracy website.

No. We just want proof. In 2,000+ years that hasn't happened yet. A book of fairy tales doesn't count as proof.

Exactly. Now you're on the right track.

This would be a good phrase for the oxymoron post.

Of course the oldest and most reliable history book ever written that has been proven accurate with thousands of other historical documents and written testimonies of eye-witnesses is just a book of fairly tales.

If you want proof, look deep into your heart of hearts. You know he exists, you really do! Guaranteed. You can spend your life and energies denying it, and get angry towards anyone who calls you out on it, but it's there. All the proof you ever needed is there you just need to stop fighting it.

The dude literally said we were unlucky not to have kids dying from covid so he could impose his will on others in regards to the proven to be ineffective and proven to be harmful "vaccine".

He also is on record as saying bodies in Hunter Biden’s basement is fully acceptable as long as any method, including known lies, is used to take down Trump.

You God haters are just as evil. But that's right you deny the existence of even the concept of evil. For if there is no Supreme Good then it's counter must not exist.

Yes, it would!
I am a believer, but mostly keep it to myself and am quiet about it. That's what I'm comfortable with. I reckon everyone else can do it their way too.

I have net opened the link you started this thread off with. My response is just to the quoted sentence of your.

I find it pretty impossible to hate something that does not exist. One does not have to believe in an invisible friend to know the difference between good and evil.
How much hatred and frustration do you have pent up within yourself to make what are quite frankly reasonless accusations about people that you clearly know nothing about painting them with such a broad brush.
I find it quite easy to do good for people without believing in a religion of any form.

When I encounter a bad situation I don't have the option to sit back and either say ( its gods will or pray a but to hope it gets better ) I have to either live with it or actively do something about it as I can't just put the blame as it were on some imaginary being.

There is nothing evil about that approach to life in my book, your milage is obviously different and I feel sorry for you to be honest.

Humans have, and I expect always will, attribute to a supreme being that which they cannot understand. Its a stopgap to retain sanity instead of falling into the abyss pondering the mysteries beyond understanding. It is also comforting to think there is some way out of our personal troubles beyond what we can make happen. I have a friend who repeatedly makes my point when we discuss whether or not a supreme being exists.
He says "well if God didn't create the universe, what did?" I can't think of a weaker argument for the existence of a supreme being. I prefer to be satisfied with saying "I don't know how the universe was created. I, like everyone else, do wish there was some way out of my personal troubles other than what humans can provide, but I just don't believe there is. I was happy that when a good friend was dying from cancer at 45 that he and his wife were comforted by the belief that it was "God's will." I just think he got screwed by fate. Why is that evil of me? I have adopted the Judeo-Christian moral doctrine but don't believe in deity worship. How does that make me evil?

That is exactly my point and it does not make us evil. And do not let anyone make you believe otherwise.
I for one am very suspicious of people that say that I am evil without even knowing me. Just because I don't believe in their invisible friend. If someone tries that route, they can peddle that BS at someone else's door, because it just does not fly with me. I can't help but feel sorry for them but will not go down that path to argue the facts with them. Just not worth it to be honest.

Where's the like button when you need one

So:

• how many religions are there?
• how many g(G)ods are there?
• Which of these religions and/or gods is the correct one?

I think mine is correct; making you evil if you refuse to comply.

Well, OK, I really don't give a rat's butt what anyone else thinks, you believe what you want and let me believe what I want. I ain't too sure but I think this country has some kind of document giving us the right to believe, or not, as we choose.

Now your getting it ! Honestly when Christiana start doing this it makes of no different to most other religions. That or when a non believer asks whats the proof the Bible is true and we just say " well the bible is proof that it's real" like.....yeah.....makay.

Truth is when the Word and the Deed (history and actions) become one. Many gods have tried it, but peculiarly, they seem to not have the ability to see into the future.
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob does and has proven it again and again. We can deny it all we want, but that don't make it not true.

Atheism is a religion.

This country has "Freedom of religion."

Anyone that does not respect that is un-American.

I can agree to that, problem being some seem to think it's freedom from religion...

Psalm 22 gives a very clear representation of Jesus' death on the cross and His crucifixion. It was written by King David way before Jesus was born. It even starts out with the same cry.

Coincidence or Truth?

Everyone has completely skipped over my original premise.

Denial of a Supreme moral good always inevitably results in the amoral thoughts and actions as displayed in Sam Harris' comments of wishing for dead children in ends justifies the means thinking.

What's stopping folks of that belief pattern from going further?

Guys, I fully respect your right of conscience to deny God but none of you will ever share a foxhole with me. You can not be trusted without a moral anchor.

I wouldn't quite agree with that statement. It is a belief in Humanism. It believes that humans are the pinnacle of knowledge and authority. It worships mankind and the notion that man is in charge. It has led to the deaths of scores if not hundreds of millions of people in the past hundred years or so; mostly through Marxist/Humanist ideology. Think; Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Castro, etc..

Thanks for that, Chancey. My brother is at a conference where Paul is speaking tomorrow night. I listen Washer's sermons quite often.

I read your link Warrior. Sam Harris lives for the world; as do many people that have convinced themselves that they are more intelligent than the majority. I don't think for a second he is an atheist however; he lives and serves the god of this world.

A little too judgemental for me. There are people I know and trust completely, and I have no idea what they believe or don't believe when it comes to religion. Never thought to ask because it doesn't matter to me.

There are no atheist in fox-holes period.

Your welcome Posco, I really like his teachings. He spits the truth and don't care if it offends some; even Christians.

Gotta love it when someone claims to know what you really think

The insults get old. If you want a great used pickup buy it from the dealer with crosses on the wall and bible verses. (sarcasm)

Atheos is the Hellenistic (Greek) word used for 1000's of years meaning; one who walks without god.
Since the Enlightenment Era (aptly named by those who elevate the human psyche), "atheism" has increasingly positioned itself as the leading voice in all matters theology. People like Sam Harris and evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins are the two leading names in the sphere of those who walk without god, and they are both incredibly bright guys.

Walking without god doesn't mean there isn't one.

Blessings,
Mark

If there was no God there would be no such thing as atheism

A bit harsh with the no sharing of foxholes there bud.
Kind of harkens me back to a bumper sticker I once saw.
"Lord, Please Save Me
From Your Followers."

Wow. A peacetime foxhole. spooky.

So, which god is yours? And who dug that foxhole, anyway?

X2 and I know a lot of believers that wouldn't trust as far as I could throw them.

If you believe someone has to believe in god to be a good person, then I don't think you're a good person.

I'm so glad the military knocked alot of this type of dogmatic thinking out of my head

If you need the threat of some all knowing being watching your and judging your 24/7 to stop you from being a horrible person then.....like I'd say you have some problems. I mean their where Christians in the SS walking naked women in fields and shooting them in the back of the heads while they where holding their babies so.....if Christian= good then....yeah no just no sorry..
And again if you can't think something like idk rape or pointless murder ,is bad and you shouldn't do it without religion ..like.... Idk what to tell you

So now I am in the same club as Hitler, Lenin Pulpit etc. and apparently have no moral compass and can't be trusted.
I don't know how I sleep at night.

Sure glad I don't have your problems. In your eyes the world must be an evil place with a person like Lenin at every street corner.

Warrior. Ellie Mae is a way better judge of character than you will ever be

You are a good man, Michael. You love this country, work hard, help lots of people in many things.

The point of many in depth thinkers of humanity, is to reach out and help others, to treat others in kindness and thoughtfulness. Their treatment of others sets them apart as taking the lead in good example.

I think frustration of these days allows some to speak in very generalized terms ….I’d like to think they surely don’t mean any of that judgment to you, or others they know , who aren’t like them, but are good people regardless.

Lots of us regard yourself with respect and high esteem.

As a believer, I know I'm as evil as they come.

Absolutely. Only God through His Son could have revealed that.

Understanding the evil within ones self is actually a pretty old concept that I'm pretty sure predates Christianity..... Also carl yun talk about it as "the shadow" alot apparently

The way I see it, I start out with compassion towards others unless the situation demands otherwise.. Time then separates the wheat from the chaff.

No one has judged here.

You are falling for a common fallacy of not understanding and misuse of scripture.

You would have that to say that a Christian should not tell a child not to play in traffic as that would be judgemental that the child is doing wrong when it is not being judgemental. Rather it is saying none of us can condemn as that is reserved solely to God. So all are welcome to the grace of God. We are instead to proclaim the gospel and call out wrongdoing.

I was thinking the same thing there ADC. And with that I am out of this thread.

Good idea. I'm out too.

Discernment is not judgement. I discern that lack of a moral compass is untrustworthy.

What makes you so evil? I am a believer and I am not evil. If you are truly evil then you shouldn’t be admitted into the pearly gates. Actually, I wouldn’t want to be around evil people.

A wise old man told me long ago……”Don't argue about religion or politics. You’re not changing anyones mind about those two subjects”.

I really don’t see the purpose of such topics.

I can answer that, just read some of our posts. There are obvious times some are thinking of taking another's life, needing it or not, we debate. That makes us no different than the abortion doctor in the eyes of God.

JS, I know I'm one of the no one is righteous, no not ones.

Blessings,
Mark

HT hit the nail on the head. Martin Luther, the Father of the Reformation, noticed that he couldn't go an hour without sinning and yet there he was in a monastery type setting studying God day in and day out to be a priest.... so back to the confessional he'd go. Time after time after time. Each time he found himself sinning.
His study mates actually viewed Martin as being lazy and trying to get out of daily chores because of all the countless times he went to confess. The priests even began to be irritated at this young man admitting so many sins.
One time, Martin wrote, he had just finished confessing, and as he walked out of the confessional..... a woman walked by him...... back to the confessional he went.
It great reading! Real life stuff.

Then slowly as Luther read through (according to his writings) Roman 1:17 again and again and again;
"For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

And he read through Paul's letter to the Romans 3:24 again and again and again:
"being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;"

Luther came to realize it's only God who can even be righteous and that it's by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone that we can be viewed to God as righteous.
God alone judges the good and the bad although we as people have our own definitions we like to use. God gave the first people (Adam and Eve) a conscious and we're all descended from them so we all have a conscious to so we realize most times what's proper and what's not.

The Reformation is another miracle of God's workings and we thank God for men like Martin Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, and Bucer who took on the corruption of powerful men in the church at that time.

Blessings,
Mark

I catch a Sam Harris podcast every once in a while. I'll also listen to a Brett Weinstein (the other guy referenced with the counter-view) podcast from time to time. I don't listen to either hoping we agree on anything and very often we don't.

Regardless, both are very intelligent and thought provoking--way smarter than the OP or some idiot internet author at the Blaze looking for clicks.

As for "believers" vs atheist, there are plenty of rotten people on this earth. A lot of them quote scripture and claim to be Christian--including the dude on here shopping for other like-minded dudes to share his foxhole.

There is very likely a similar percentage of rotten atheists.

Agreed BC.
I enjoy listening to topic discussions such as Richard Dawkins and John Lennox who both hail and teach/taught at Oxford in England.
There are MANY MANY intelligent people who sit on both sides of the theological fence.
Here's a well known example.



I'm of the theological camp that we're all atheists or agnostics or whatever we call ourselves until God says we're not, because we're all coveters at heart.... so it's best to be an example of the Light as best we can with everyone.

Blessings,
Mark

Thanks Mark. I clicked on the video--dang, it's long. I'll listen it on my drive home from work tonight.

There is historical proof. A Jewish historian called Josephus wrote about Jesus. In one of his writings he admits hearing of the wonderous works of Jesus. He had not seen them personally, but was hearing from witnesses who had. It appears he was never a follower and was writing about what he had heard.

Warrior said [quote]Discernment is not judgement. I discern that lack of a moral compass is untrustworthy./quote]

I agree with almost everything Warrior posts, but not this. I think it is completely unfair. No disagreement that lack of a moral compass is untrustworthy. It's your apparent judgement that I don't have a moral compass because I don't believe the same things you believe regarding a supreme being that I have issue with.

EdP, read some of the post the people that are judging you have posted and see what kind of moral compass they must have.

I never cease to be amazed at the world we live in and the universe. If I look up into the sky, I ask myself: "Where does it end?" "Where did God come from in the first place?".
I don't know and pretty sure no one else does either. I was told as a kid that God "just was". Blows my mind.

I still have half a bag of popcorn left...... please continue

As Christians, we are called to spread the Good news. But not in a forceful or mean spirited way. That easily turns people off to everything we are trying to accomplish. We must be kind and understanding. And if we are denied we shall pray and move on.

Was reading an article posted by an atheist who became a believer over the span of time and his commentary is laid out very well. Here's a snippet of it that helps us to remember that all of us were once far off, and in that remembrance we find a more humble heart....

"After going to church, I realized I’d done to Christianity exactly what I’d accused religion of doing to the world. I oversimplified and misrepresented it because I missed a key piece of data: “There is salvation in no one else” but Jesus (Acts 4:12). The most controversial yet fundamental claim in the Christian faith is that Jesus alone has accomplished everything necessary for the salvation of all who believe in him. For this reason, he must be trusted. This doctrine separates Christianity from every other worldview, and it unites every other doctrine within our faith. What’s the Ground for Morality? Before I became a Christian, I had a strictly physicalist worldview that left no room for objective moral principles. My biggest objection to such principles was that they’d require some absolute standard that transcended the physical universe. In conversations with people who believed in transcendence, I found no one who had a sufficient basis for believing in objective moral standards. Among the few religious friends I had, none could give a good reason why some people go to (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) and others go to heaven. I concluded that the reason they drew the line between “good” and “evil” where they did was to convince themselves they were on the “good” side."

The doctrine of Exclusivity in Christianity does separate it from all other religions and for that we Praise God.
The lost call it unfair.
The redeemed call it grace.

Blessings,
Mark

What are you saved from? Your gods wrath if I understand it correctly? If your unable to believe he sets you on fire? Nothing crazy about that I guess.

Good question danny. The Heck fire preaching era of the later 1800's and early 1900's trying to get those darn folks back into church who bought into Darwinism of the 19th century is long gone.
It was a preaching effort to bring 'em back! It didn't work then and it doesn't work now, but some still try to use it (regrettably most today say).
It was a not so good idea by good folks trying their best (we can imagine).
But, it's not the true Gospel Hope however.. these heck fire preachers calling people to repent and be saved from the inferno Lake of Fire.

Scripture depicts the Gospel Hope being an eternity with God.
The opposite camp is an eternity apart from God.

Blessings,
Mark

NOT finding the treasure.

I somewhat disagree with you Mark. I think the full story is necessary. One must not only know of the the Lamb of God but also of the Lion of Judah. All I know as pertaining to your question Danny is that "God is light, and there is no darkness in Him." So I reckon we are being saved from ourselves.

I agree with you JS but the Western theology, especially in America, is so fully immersed in Salvation (justification) that the rest of God's story gets lost on us.
Wrath? God's wrath? The doctrine of human depravity and the consequences of it. I'm all in.

But danny usually posts about the fire and the lake and the torment and such, so my comment wasn't meant to diminish the story of the Lamb returning as the Lion, but rather how those who teach and preach and evangelize should approach those who are far off.

"In Him was life and the life was the Light of men" (Jn 1:4) is my go to verse most often for those I meet with and who are far off. Their life isn't going very well, and it seems pretty dark, and the heck fire approach some I've been with use (with those far off) is off-putting as I watch discussions unfold. I can't land that plane as they say. I'm a Light casts out the dark preacher I guess.

Blessings,
Mark

I post about fire because you post constantly about salvation. Salvation from "writhing in the pit of fire". The pit of fire according to your book, your god created so that you need salvation from it.

Im done now. just get sick of being told I am second rate for not being able to believe something so ludicrous.

Danny, I must have missed that post, can you point it out for me? Thanks.

Hobbie, I like reading your stuff so I will reply. refers to every revival preacher I watched as a kid putting on his show

You seem to be a decent man Danny. As a believer myself I wish I could get you to take more time to look at Christianity. I don't think I am any better than you are though. If I am correct you were kinda scorned by past Christian educators? This is why I said we as Christians can't be pushy and high and mighty with spreading the word of God.

Wasn't there a thread on Revelation recently? What's the gist of the book? Flee from the wrath to come. If anything, modern evangelicals have watered down the message to the point you have more tares filling the pews than wheat.

Yes, it's true, God is love. But Got hates sin and it's not the sin that's thrown into the lake of fire, it's the sinner.

What is the beginning of wisdom?

This is my favorite response thus far, so I'll humbly offer my services to your cause.

I'll admit that I didn't watch any of the videos, and I didn't read the thread very thoroughly. Sorry if that puts me off base on anything I'm saying. This thread seemed mostly contentious and unproductive, and I didn't see a way to help it along, so I'd been leaving it alone. The issue that got me interested is below, but, regarding the original premise (as far as I can tell having not actually watched the videos), I suppose one could agree with the premise on a strictly philosophical level. It seems to me that this premise is actually how almost everyone in the world operates, and it's precisely what Jesus (and the Scriptures) are warning us against. Within ANY worldview, there is a definition of what is good and what is evil. Anyone operating outside the realm of good (as defined by my religion/worldview/life philosophy/politics) is operating in the realm of evil. WE are the good guys, THEY are the bad. THEY should be eliminated. Christianity does acknowledge God's definition of good and evil as the only standard, but it is opposed to the us/them moral dichotomy. It posits that EVERYONE has been corrupted BY evil, and God's desire is to rescue ALL of us FROM evil. The dichotomy isn't between good people and bad people. It's between all people and God, and this God would rather heal and forgive than eliminate and destroy (though that's not to say He won't). He would rather invite people into the realm of good than destroy them because they aren't already there. With that out of the way, I'll get to the comment I actually wanted to address:


First, a caveat, everything I'm going to say here is necessarily, and unfortunately, an oversimplification. If you want the complete picture, you have to read the book and try to understand the context and significance over and over and over again, ideally with other people too. Some of what I'm about to say may make some believers uncomfortable as well. Sorry. Don't take my word for it. Read your Bible, and if you still think I'm wrong, then let's talk.

What are we saved from? There are several right answers: death, sin, wrath, (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman), ourselves. In the Bible all of these things are interconnected, maybe nearly synonymous. It sounds like you want to address the issues of HelI and wrath, so I want to briefly throw out some misconceptions and throw in some biblical concepts to replace them. First, HelI. We think of Heaven and HelI as the primary biblical dichotomy. It's not. The Bible very clearly starts with a unity (not a dichotomy at all) of Heaven and Earth. Humans, in their realm of responsibility (Earth) rebel (with a mysterious evil being) against Heaven (God's realm), thus creating a dichotomy: Heaven and Earth. HelI is a human creation. It's the reality that we create on Earth apart from Heaven. It comes much later in the story, and is actually (don't freak out) a metaphor. The word literally denotes a valley outside of Jerusalem. You can get a plane ticket and tour the place today. HelI is an English transliteration of the Greek "gahenna" which is a transliteration of the Hebrew "ge hinnom" meaning the Hinnom Valley. Saying it is a metaphor does not mean it isn't a real thing. Rather, it is an strong image that is used to describe a real thing that is too strong for plain language. In the Hinnom Valley, the kings of Israel sacrificed their children and burned their them on altars to Molech. Those events were so horrific, so horrifying, that the prophets used the idea to describe what would happen to the people who committed those and similar acts. I don't know how detailed we can get here today, but the basic idea is that when humans chose to set up their own kingdoms apart from Yahweh, and often with other gods, those kingdoms become HelI. It's not where God punishes, burns, and kills us. It's where we punish, burn, and kill each other. The interesting thing about God's wrath in the Bible is that most of the time (not all, but most), it is simply God handing humans over to their own destruction. God doesn't send people to HelI. He offers them a way out, but allows them to stay there if they'd rather. There is often fiery and fantastic language around God's wrathful events in the Bible, but if you read closely, it's usually God staying out of the way when it comes to human business-as-usual. Just one example: When Babylon falls, you read poetry about a darkened sky, earthquakes, stars falling from heaven, but if you were alive at that time and saw it, it would simply look like a Persian army. Or in the same way, when you read the Revelation, the four "horsemen of the Apocalypse" are conquest, war, famine, and death - just another day among the kingdoms of this earth. HelI and wrath are simply life apart from God's rule, and the hope is that in the end Heaven and Earth will be reunited and that HelI will be contained so it can no longer corrupt and destroy God's good world. Death will not have the last word. That's the image in the end of Revelation. The source of evil and those who would rather serve him don't get to participate in the Kingdom of Heaven. They get to continue building and living in their own kingdom, and that looks like a fiery death, just like we saw way back in Hinnom.

PS - if any of you are motivated enough to read about HelI in your Bibles, always check the original Hebrew. Several modern translations have, unfortunately, used the English "helI" to translate the Hebrew "Sheol". Sheol is simply the grave, or the realm of the dead. It's very different from wrath-and-judgement HelI.

jrt did an excellent job laying out the answers and if we're gonna dive in a bit deeper, I'm game. Topics like this relate to those vital and real things in life and it's great so many have chimed in.

As to
I usually munch bag with butter and no salt but some people prefer salt and not butter. You see how some times the individual preferences and opinions can rally around a theme of "popcorn is delicious" while realizing delicious has variances based on people's preferences. Same with theology. God is the standard. Humans are God's creation. With that as our compass point, we aim to figure things out the best we can in community. There's more Scripture surrounding fellowship and unity of the believers in the Bible than passages about Heaven and Hel_.



Jrt's comments were again very strong in answering danny's questions with biblical truth. And we can take another angle from the eyes of the secular world and “Imagine there’s no heaven, it’s easy if you try,” John Lennon sang, “no (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) below us, above us only sky.” This world famous song imagines a world with no religion to divide people or national borders to defend against other folks.... all with a beetlemania assumption that unity and peace would result "if" religion and borders were banished for good.

Why does Lennon, an atheist, dream of not having any heaven? It seems, according to his song lyrics, he yearned for the “The world to be as one” and as good, but John Lennon found out in a horrific example of how the world isn't always unified and it sure isn't always good.

So the Christian can imagine a place of gladness and serenity not interrupted by evil and human sin, but believers have to know a few things, according to God's Word and how things are laid/spelled out to put it all in formation.

First, if heaven exists, we’re not presently in it. The world we live in is characterized by life and death, love and hate, laughing and crying, dancing and mourning, peace and war (Eccl. 3:1–8). Good things come and then good things fade away quite often. It's how the world is, and how the world will continue to be. No politician, no beatlemania, no new law, or any Christian organization for that matter can make the world come together as one.

Second, if heaven exists we’re not fit for it. There's never been a person who never grew old, got along with everybody, never have a violent thought or lazy attitude, or didn't try to cheat someone outta something. Every person on earth will experience joy and love, and peace, but also anger, guilt, regret, and fear. The interruptions live around us and effect us as much as they live inside of us.

Embracing the Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ awakens us to the truth that we’re not fit—physically or spiritually—to experience what our hearts can imagine, and in that realization we can reflect on how Jesus brings good news to troubled hearts.

The Lord Jesus said:

Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going. I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:1–6)

So danny's question is a really good question and one that's been pondered by every person who's ever heard the name Jesus. It's not what God plans to do to us as much as what God has already done for us with the ultimate life line.

"Imagine there's no heaven, it's really sad if you try," is how I view John Lennon's song lyrics, knowing that putting all your eggs in the human quest of Utopia on earth simply gets you more of the same old same old.

There are only two destinations in the biblical narrative.
One is an eternity with God and the rest of the saints.
The other is an eternity apart from God along with those who are not saints.

Blessings!
Mark