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Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8112264
04/01/24 06:43 AM
04/01/24 06:43 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 14,871
Greene County,Virginia
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run Offline
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Greene County,Virginia
Thank you for the pictures!


wanna be goat farmer.
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8112300
04/01/24 08:00 AM
04/01/24 08:00 AM
Joined: Apr 2022
Posts: 3,815
Wisconsin
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Guss Offline
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I have a feeling that building the bridge is gonna be a money pit.

Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8112369
04/01/24 09:45 AM
04/01/24 09:45 AM
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,148
NC - Here there and everywhere
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coondagger2 Offline
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Morning fellas.

I'm a civil engineer with a good bit of structural experience and I also happen to work for the government.

Cleanup should be quick, but design and construction of this bridge will take many years.

The sheer size of the scope of this project does not lend it to being rebuilt quickly. As stupid as this sounds, when things get political like this, the aesthetics of the new bridge are just as important as the structure.

They could build a simple prefab bridge fairly quick, but that won't cut it

This bridge will have to be impressive

It'll take at least a year to design it, maybe longer. Then construction will take years. Just look at the Harbor Bridge project in Corpus Christi. It is similar in length to the bridge in Baltimore. They started construction in 2016 and should be done by spring of 2025. That's 9 years of construction.

Just remember, in government work the lowest bidder wins


Gotta live up to the nickname...
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: coondagger2] #8112422
04/01/24 11:47 AM
04/01/24 11:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 5,015
MD
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DaveP Offline
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MD
Originally Posted by coondagger2

Just remember, in government work the lowest bidder wins



In my experience, the politicians and their friends and families win...

Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: trapdog1] #8112461
04/01/24 01:43 PM
04/01/24 01:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 19,719
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hippie Offline
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Originally Posted by trapdog1
Originally Posted by River Birch
I have spent many hours on the water, before Covid I was operating vessels on the Hudson and East Rivers. I even posted many pictures from the harbor…

I do have a few theory’s pertaining to the bridge collision.

The Jones Act has lots of information here is just some…

The Merchant Marine act of 1920 was designed to create a safe network of merchant mariners within the U.S. after World War I, in reaction to the U.S. fleet being destroyed by the German navy. The Jones Act requires all goods shipped between U.S. ports to be transported by U.S. vessels (and operated primarily by Americans).

It calls for providing the nation with a merchant marine that can transport goods between U.S. ports, increase national security during war times, and support a U.S. maritime industry. This nearly century-old law has been amended several times, most recently in 2006.

While much of the current attention on the Jones Act is focused on foreign shipping regulations, the law also contains important information about the maritime industry’s responsibilities regarding safety and well-being of crew. It safeguards the rights of sailors from being exploited, requiring compensation for injuries due to negligence by their employers. It requires employers to maintain safe environments and provide medical care, and also sets standards for vessel maintenance, safety equipment such as lifeboats, and crew qualifications, training and licensing. And, this all-encompassing law has something to say about the environment too, requiring all U.S. ships to comply with EPA regulations.

The Bottom Line
The Jones Act is a 1920 law that limits how cargo is transported by sea. It requires any cargo shipped between U.S. ports to be carried by U.S. ships, with American crews. Originally intended as a measure to support the strategically-important shipping industry, it is now considered a classic example of protectionism.

I absolutely loved your photos, btw.


Yep, great photos of your work River Birch!

Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113157
04/02/24 04:42 PM
04/02/24 04:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,912
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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williamsburg ks
https://www.thetrucker.com/trucking-news/the-nation/thousands-of-bridges-are-in-poor-shape-across-us

I have spent many hours driving over bridges, Some are flat out scary. Just a couple years ago they found major structural problems with a bridge over the Mississippi river at Memphis. A barge captain spotted it. D.O.T. blamed it on the contractor hired to inspect it.

Last edited by danny clifton; 04/02/24 04:43 PM.

Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113217
04/02/24 05:58 PM
04/02/24 05:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,302
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline
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S/W Wisconsin
Riverbirch, I have a question. I have been a brown water sailor for over 40 years. On the rivers I have navigated I have seen many many protection cells in place to protect bridge piers and any thing else that's best not to be struck by a boat or barge. With that said I have 0% knowledge of Bluewater navigation. The first thing i noticed after seeing this disaster is why in world didn't they have protection cells in place to stop or at least minimize the damage to the bridge? This to me makes no sense whatsoever. Is this normal where you work?


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Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: rpmartin] #8113426
04/03/24 04:25 AM
04/03/24 04:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 880
WV Fla
River Birch Offline
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WV Fla
Originally Posted by rpmartin
Riverbirch, I have a question. I have been a brown water sailor for over 40 years. On the rivers I have navigated I have seen many many protection cells in place to protect bridge piers and any thing else that's best not to be struck by a boat or barge. With that said I have 0% knowledge of Bluewater navigation. The first thing i noticed after seeing this disaster is why in world didn't they have protection cells in place to stop or at least minimize the damage to the bridge? This to me makes no sense whatsoever. Is this normal where you work?



rpmartin from my experience I’d say less than half the bridges have protection. On the river I have seen and used “defenders “ ( they are big steel piling’s with rubber rollers to help protect other vessels or structures) The weight and inertia of that large cargo ship I’d doubt it would have saved the bridge from the direct hit it took. Possibly they would have helped a glancing mid ship hit. That being said the Verrazano narrows bridge, which I used to cross under often has such a large span, and I have seen many many cargo ships go in and out. They have no reason to go anywhere near the pillars on that bridge once again, if I could figure out how to post pictures, I can post some really cool ones of the Verrazano. ….
I appreciate your question and hope that I answered it. If not, let me know. I’ll try again. Thanks.


Lifetime Member NJTA...WTTA Caught the bug in 1979
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113461
04/03/24 07:25 AM
04/03/24 07:25 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,302
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline
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S/W Wisconsin
Thanks RB for your well thought out reply. I'm thinking we both know that given enough time there is no bridge standing that cannot be hit. I did a little research and found out that this bridge was struck by a ship in 1980 but no harm was done. Should have been a wake up call maybe??? Hind sight is always 20/20! If anyone would like to read this click FSK bridge then click Wikipedia, scroll down to history. If someone could copy a link here thank you. And while your at it copy a link of the sunshine bridge history also very interesting and informative.
Please don't laugh too hard at my artistic skills but this is basically what I'm talking about. One more thing to remember, the bridge pier stopped the ship right. So these protection cells would be just as big and strong or stronger than the bridge piers. Make sense??
[Linked Image]


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Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113463
04/03/24 07:29 AM
04/03/24 07:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,670
Georgia
warrior Online content
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I'd say a combination of dropped anchor and bridge pinning it to the bottom are what finally stopped it.


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Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113494
04/03/24 08:06 AM
04/03/24 08:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,912
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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Navigating under the Verrazano might be roomy but herding 40 tons over it is not. I would do it at 3-4 in the morning. Lanes are so narrow you have a steer tire literally ontop each of the painted lane dividers. Lots better than the traffic even that time of morning on the GW. Leaving the city in the morning the GW is fine.


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113497
04/03/24 08:11 AM
04/03/24 08:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 29,912
williamsburg ks
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danny clifton Online content
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williamsburg ks
Bottom line our interstate system needs a LOT of upgrades. More traffic than it was designed for now along with many aging bridges. I can see how the momentum of heavy ships can take out a bridge support. Accidents happen. Guardrails dont prevent every major accident. But they sure enough prevent a huge amount of fatalities. We have money for foreign aid but none for the U.S.? How did that happen?


Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113499
04/03/24 08:16 AM
04/03/24 08:16 AM
Joined: Mar 2018
Posts: 2,238
Missouri
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HayDay Offline
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Missouri
As big bodies of water go, the Chesapeake is shallow. There are channels to bays and coves that are marked on both sides with navigation aids and even in boats with 5 to 6 foot draft, get out of the channel and you will run aground. Some of these channels may only be 10 feet wide. There are points on some of the river basins that are so shallow you can be 2 miles from shore and run aground in 4 feet of water. From the mouth at Norfolk all the way to Baltimore, there is a narrow, marked shipping channel. Big boats like the Dali get out of it, they will run around. The deepest part of it only 80 feet or so. A lot of 30 to 40 feet water even in the open bay......out of sight of land. That is pretty much the condition that exists on the entire bay.

To even make it to that bridge, the boat had to have control and steerage to stay in the 50 foot deep channel, which it did. Reports are it was favoring the red marker side (red, right, returning), then swerved to starboard to aim at bridge pillar on green marker side. Had it been on green side and swerved to starboard, it would have run aground before it got there.

Have yet to hear the crew's account of what happened. Search for crew reports and you will find there were 22 crew on board, and still are.......the poor dears.....reporting is sympathetic to their plight being stuck on the ship. No reporting on how they screwed up. They all know what happened, at least from their view. They were on the boat.

I'm in the camp that still believes this was no accident.

Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: warrior] #8113582
04/03/24 10:40 AM
04/03/24 10:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,302
S/W Wisconsin
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Originally Posted by warrior
I'd say a combination of dropped anchor and bridge pinning it to the bottom are what finally stopped it.


I knew they dropped an anchor. Do we know for sure it helped slow it down?


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Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: rpmartin] #8113596
04/03/24 11:12 AM
04/03/24 11:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 880
WV Fla
River Birch Offline
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WV Fla
Originally Posted by rpmartin
Originally Posted by warrior
I'd say a combination of dropped anchor and bridge pinning it to the bottom are what finally stopped it.


I knew they dropped an anchor. Do we know for sure it helped slow it down?



I don’t think the anchor helped, kinda like trying to stop you car dragging your feet. And I was told the brake in the anchor chain wasn’t applied?

Last edited by River Birch; 04/03/24 11:13 AM.

Lifetime Member NJTA...WTTA Caught the bug in 1979
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113603
04/03/24 11:27 AM
04/03/24 11:27 AM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 880
WV Fla
River Birch Offline
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WV Fla
When dropping anchor it’s typical to leave 7’ of line per foot of water. With chain it is less due to the weight of chain, the brakes on an anchor chain is quite scary when the anchor is first dropped. Watch a few YouTube videos it’s crazy…


Lifetime Member NJTA...WTTA Caught the bug in 1979
Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113605
04/03/24 11:32 AM
04/03/24 11:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 3,302
S/W Wisconsin
rpmartin Offline
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Thanks RB, I was wondering about that.

I should also add that the protection cells are filled with stone then 10 or 20 feet of concrete on top of that. They are as big as a house, sometimes bigger or smaller. It depends what they are protecting and weight and speed of what they are trying to stop. Engineers take care of that, way above my pay grade.


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Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113644
04/03/24 12:28 PM
04/03/24 12:28 PM
Joined: Apr 2022
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Wisconsin
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They just need a bridge ther nothing fancy that cost billions.

Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Guss] #8113651
04/03/24 12:43 PM
04/03/24 12:43 PM
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MD
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Originally Posted by Guss
They just need a bridge ther nothing fancy that cost billions.


Planning, inflation, union wages, graft and corruption.
Couple billion here, few billion there, pretty soon, you're talking serious money, lol.
I mean, not a fraction of what we're giving away, or worse, spending to actively destroy our own country, but still, a pretty nice chunk.of change.

Re: Francis Scott Bridge collapse [Re: Foxpaw] #8113657
04/03/24 12:50 PM
04/03/24 12:50 PM
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Sandhills Nebraska
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The design engineers piece of the pie is a percentage of the total cost of the structure, so they like to make it as expensive as they can get away with. I've seen some mighty nice buildings in a danged sewer plant.


Life ain't supposed to be easy.
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