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Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077678
02/15/24 09:03 AM
02/15/24 09:03 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,599
Timmins Ontario
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gibb Offline
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Timmins Ontario
That's my point a $10 fee on the back end on a $30 dollar otter average is 33% of the hammer price which is directly taken out of the trappers pocket.

$2.00 handling $8 CITES fee

Fha is the biggest middleman in the industry.

Take away the fees and the hammer price would go by supply and demand.

Padding the bottom line with fees kills the industry. They look great on a spread sheet on a financial report but kill the business.

Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: Boco] #8077743
02/15/24 09:47 AM
02/15/24 09:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 2,298
PA
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lumberjack391 Offline
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PA
Originally Posted by Boco
They got a big list of buyers registered for the auction-no need for pt most likely why they cancelled it.
More buyers than fur available.

OK, If you read that kinda fast it sounds like the next fur boom is here. Boco I admire your optimism.

Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077751
02/15/24 09:50 AM
02/15/24 09:50 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,708
north Idaho
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wissmiss Offline
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north Idaho
I’m not following your thinking.

Hammer price on a $30.00 otter. Buyer pays an additional.$12.46. Buyers cost is $42.46 and the otter hasn’t even left the FH building.

Or are you talking about fees the seller pays??


www.usedtraps.com

Please check out my updated inventory of Native American books.

Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: gibb] #8077765
02/15/24 09:59 AM
02/15/24 09:59 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 802
Labrador, Canada
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crosspatch Offline
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Posts: 802
Labrador, Canada
Originally Posted by gibb
Where excessive fees really make money is in the regular commerical goods.

Not hard to shallow all the extra fees on the top end goods when you look at the overall cost to purchase.

Where it hurts the shippers is the buyers know exactly what the cost are and I believe CITES extra fees are not in the discussion but never the less hurt the trapper for example low otter averages.

Fees isolate the auction company from the hammer price as the money is not legtimately made off a auction commission.

Instead of working harder to get the best possible price for the trapper they rely on extra charges on both ends of the auction process.

Averages are given to the trapper before all the extra fees are deducted.

For example a $40 marten average is bullsh-t after you factor in the drumming charge $1.50, in are case here in Ontario $2.60 royality fee, 11%commission $4.40 shipping $15. magazine charge $10.

A $40 gross average becomes a $30 net average

Add the effect of buyer charges and you have packing fees and commission fees that while the trapper doesn't think they pay the buyer has to account for this charge so the hammer price is dropped.

Fees are killing the industry.


Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077778
02/15/24 10:08 AM
02/15/24 10:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 802
Labrador, Canada
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crosspatch Offline
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Labrador, Canada
Not sure of the maths Jim. Around here a $40 hammer marten, after 11% commission and .75 drumming gets u $34.85 not $30. Ontario royalty fee only comes off for Ontario origin fur and, to the best of my knowledge, comes off regardless of where the fur is sold not just FHA. $15 shipping fee, regardless of how much fur u ship, is a deal compared to Post Office or commercial carrier. And no shipping fee deducted on less than $100 worth of fur shipped is good for the little guys/beginners. The magazine, and the $10 charge for it, were dropped a couple of years now.

What have I missed?


Last edited by crosspatch; 02/15/24 10:20 AM.
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077781
02/15/24 10:11 AM
02/15/24 10:11 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,599
Timmins Ontario
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gibb Offline
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Timmins Ontario
Nancy you know exactly what the extra fees cost you so you bid accordingly. If all the extra fees added on were not there you could bid more.

The laws of supply and demand would up the hammer price and the trapper would receive more for their catch.

It is not really a commission base auction anymore.

Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: crosspatch] #8077786
02/15/24 10:15 AM
02/15/24 10:15 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,599
Timmins Ontario
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gibb Offline
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Timmins Ontario
Frank if you are happy with the deal good for you.

No where on their site are drumming fees listed.

On their website it shows $10 for the magazine maybe if they update the site they could communicate with the trappers better.

Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077791
02/15/24 10:20 AM
02/15/24 10:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,217
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Armpit, ak
Fee loading definately incentifies fha towards clearance


Who is John Galt?
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077793
02/15/24 10:24 AM
02/15/24 10:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 802
Labrador, Canada
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crosspatch Offline
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Labrador, Canada
Not a matter if happy w the deal or not Jim. The $40 marten is worth $34.85 not $34. Drumming fees listed in catalogue for each sale which is publicly posted before the sale.

Good point about updating website - not their strong point but couple of years now since $10 fee and magazine existed.

Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: gibb] #8077803
02/15/24 10:31 AM
02/15/24 10:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,583
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
Originally Posted by gibb
That's my point a $10 fee on the back end on a $30 dollar otter average is 33% of the hammer price which is directly taken out of the trappers pocket.

$2.00 handling $8 CITES fee

Fha is the biggest middleman in the industry.

Take away the fees and the hammer price would go by supply and demand.

Padding the bottom line with fees kills the industry. They look great on a spread sheet on a financial report but kill the business.


Why didnt you get rid of those fees when you were on the board and worked at FHA,and when you were on the board of directors at Nafa.
You are a disgruntled ex employee,and now a competitor is why you changed your spots.

Last edited by Boco; 02/15/24 10:31 AM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: gibb] #8077809
02/15/24 10:37 AM
02/15/24 10:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,583
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
Originally Posted by gibb
Nancy you know exactly what the extra fees cost you so you bid accordingly. If all the extra fees added on were not there you could bid more.

The laws of supply and demand would up the hammer price and the trapper would receive more for their catch.

It is not really a commission base auction anymore.


This is not true,people buy what they want and any costs are passed on to those who buy from them.
I know this well with the increase in tanning costs.I dont tan any less but I did have to increase my prices to cover inflation.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: Boco] #8077815
02/15/24 10:41 AM
02/15/24 10:41 AM
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 8,604
Henderson, N.Y. Jefferson Co.
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walleyed Offline
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Henderson, N.Y. Jefferson Co.
Originally Posted by Boco
Originally Posted by gibb
That's my point a $10 fee on the back end on a $30 dollar otter average is 33% of the hammer price which is directly taken out of the trappers pocket.

$2.00 handling $8 CITES fee

Fha is the biggest middleman in the industry.

Take away the fees and the hammer price would go by supply and demand.

Padding the bottom line with fees kills the industry. They look great on a spread sheet on a financial report but kill the business.


Why didnt you get rid of those fees when you were on the board and worked at FHA,and when you were on the board of directors at Nafa.
You are a disgruntled ex employee,and now a competitor is why you changed your spots.


OUCH !!!!

True Dat !!!!! laugh

BOCO just hit the nail squarely on the head.

However,

The skin game is the most corrupt, crooked, & diabolical
industry in North America and that's putting it mildly.

All the major players have dirt on their hands.

walleyed


"Provisional/Interim" member of NYS Trappers Association
Jefferson Co. Fur Harvesters

I Support Non-Resident Trapping



Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077823
02/15/24 10:54 AM
02/15/24 10:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,217
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Armpit, ak
If you back calculate what the buyers are actually paying for pelts, then you can estimate what the mark up the local fur buyer is getting for his pelts selling to the same end users. I'm not sure FHA is the biggest middleman?

P.S. I'm not going to ship them $40 marten. Just so they know. smile

Last edited by Dirt; 02/15/24 11:01 AM.

Who is John Galt?
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077832
02/15/24 11:04 AM
02/15/24 11:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,583
james bay frontierOnt.
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Boco Offline
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james bay frontierOnt.
Pretty sure your marten would do much better than that dirt.
But not as much as you get hawking them to the cruise ship tourists.

Last edited by Boco; 02/15/24 11:05 AM.

Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: Boco] #8077837
02/15/24 11:09 AM
02/15/24 11:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 11,217
Armpit, ak
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Dirt Offline
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Posts: 11,217
Armpit, ak
Originally Posted by Boco
Pretty sure your marten would do much better than that dirt.
But not as much as you get hawking them to the cruise ship tourists.


What do I get hawking them to cruise ship tourist? Where do you come up with this stuff? I'm aware of FHA's marten strategy this year.

BTW How do you know gibb did not advocate for getting rid of fees when he was on those boards and maybe nobody listened to him?

Last edited by Dirt; 02/15/24 11:14 AM.

Who is John Galt?
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077840
02/15/24 11:16 AM
02/15/24 11:16 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 16,708
north Idaho
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wissmiss Offline
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north Idaho
Crosspatch - drumming fees listed in the catalog???

Really? I’ve never seen them listed in the catalog and I’ve seen lots of FH catalogs over the years. Why would they be listed? Buyers don’t care what fees the sellers pay and the catalog is for the buyers.

Packing/handling fees are listed in the catalog because the buyer needs to know what he will be charged.


www.usedtraps.com

Please check out my updated inventory of Native American books.

Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: mud] #8077843
02/15/24 11:20 AM
02/15/24 11:20 AM
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,142
sseMinnesota
blackhammer Offline
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sseMinnesota
Their website is a joke. Little Mom and pop stores have better. Oh yes be patient and eventually you’ll get your check, results, grading . I suppose but customers don’t like it but I’m getting of the opinion they don’t want a lot of fur or customers . Heck of a way to run a business.

Last edited by blackhammer; 02/15/24 11:20 AM.

Ah,for the life of a millionaire,say some,but just let me stay a trapper. Bill Nelson
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: wissmiss] #8077898
02/15/24 12:43 PM
02/15/24 12:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 802
Labrador, Canada
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crosspatch Offline
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Labrador, Canada
Good point Wissmiss - why would buyers care about drumming fees. Saw them somewhere. Must try and find out where. Thanks for the correction.

Did some looking under FHA site and closest can find is under "Shipping to FHA" are "Conditions of Sale". Conditions list 11% commission and drumming fees but do not list those fees. Contacted Cheryl at FHA and asked her to send me what they are. If I get them will ask her to post under "Conditions of Sale".

Last edited by crosspatch; 02/15/24 01:44 PM.
Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: blackhammer] #8077916
02/15/24 12:59 PM
02/15/24 12:59 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 12,592
South Ga - Almost Florida
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Swamp Wolf Offline
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South Ga - Almost Florida
Originally Posted by blackhammer
Their website is a joke. Little Mom and pop stores have better. Oh yes be patient and eventually you’ll get your check, results, grading . I suppose but customers don’t like it but I’m getting of the opinion they don’t want a lot of fur or customers . Heck of a way to run a business.

This^^^ is what I don't understand about FHA.


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Re: FHA preliminary offering [Re: blackhammer] #8077983
02/15/24 02:35 PM
02/15/24 02:35 PM
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,477
MN
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walleye101 Offline
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MN
Originally Posted by blackhammer
Their website is a joke. Little Mom and pop stores have better. Oh yes be patient and eventually you’ll get your check, results, grading . I suppose but customers don’t like it but I’m getting of the opinion they don’t want a lot of fur or customers . Heck of a way to run a business.


If you don't like the FHA website you could try NAFA. They have had a great website and live auction broadcast!

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