FHA preliminary offering

Just saw it..

Good number of beaver.
Should be some good competition for that amount.

Says no,PT sales after the last hammer on the 24th. Unsold goods will be reoffered in June. Interesting.

What about PT sales while the auction is going on??

PT sales: I would guess yes, simple by the verbiage.
Perhaps adding some pressure. It will be a good move if there is some demand.

What ?

They weren't able to get an accurate count on the number of skunks
that they are going to offer for sale this go-around ?

What's up with that ?

Doesn't bode very well for the skunk tamers !!!

w

The sale is over a month away. They are pulling numbers out of a hat. Grading and lotting isn’t close to being finished. They have no idea how many pelts of each species will be offered. They have to put numbers out there to remind folks about the auction. Shippers are getting nervous

Agree withy Nancy, it just propaganda !

Not saying they are not wags, but receiving agents should know exactly how many pelts they have and what species after LRD. Or they should. Just add up the totals on the receipt and let HQ know.

Exactly what they do.

But being the first sale of the year, there might not be enough of a certain item - say black possums or spotted skunks - to put up a decent offering, so they will hold the items for the next, in hopes of more of that item coming in.

Now your numbers are off. Receiving agents say they have received 2487 possums. 18 of them are black, so there will only be 2,469 possums actually offered on this sale.

I still say they pull numbers out of the air based on receipts and past sales.

Right down these preliminary numbers are see how close they are to the actual catalog. I dare you!!

Obviously the numbers are rounded off.
Not meant to be exact numbers at this time.
Why its called preliminary.

About time! That PT room was bad for anyone selling fur.

PT sales while the auction is going on??? You got to be joking!!

No,the PT is good for selling fur in a down market.

I can’t believe I’m going to say this - for once I agree with Boco. Mark the occasion on the calendar because it doesn’t happen often.

Let the PT battle begin!!!?

Ya it’s good for selling fur cheap and screwing trappers.

Why not only opening private treaty a week or two after close. buyers would have gone home by then?,and added costs
may sway their thinking? Being more inclined aggressive during sale?

What part of NO do you not understand?

I can buy fur at FH via PT sitting in my living room in north Idaho. In fact, I did so back in November. Picked up 100 eastern coyote, 2x and 3X, # 2s. They were left over from the May. No need to go to North Bay to buy or even look at the goods.

It is sold for what it is worth,not cheap and not expensive.At market value.
The only way it would ever sell cheap is if buyers colluded on the auction floor,and that is highly illegal with jail time involved,
Several would have to collude to make it work and it would only take one rat to sink that ship.

It’s not hard to understand the more buyers at the auction needing fur the higher the prices will be. Too many Nancy’s sitting at home waiting to make a little order whenever they see fit.

If they want to make crafts out of fur come get it! This isn’t skip the dishes.

Seems like not a lot beaver to me? Maybe the May sale will have more

The cost to travel to North Bay to buy 100 coyotes is cost prohibitive.

If some one (any one) wanted those 100 coyotes they would have bought them at the May sale. Given the state of the coyote market, if I hadn’t bought them in November, they would still be there after the upcoming sale. The lots I bought had been through at least 3 auctions. Maybe FH should have taken them out and burnt them.

What does the auction house have to gain by giving the fur away?

Why even entertain PT on beaver? Before, during or after makes no sense in this beaver market. Makes no sense for the trapper.

Maybe FH should have taken them out and burnt them.

Yep

I’m getting the popcorn out, I see this thread degrading into another FHA bashing thread. Jesh if you don’t like how FHA operates don’t send fur there . I talked this morning with the buyer that bought most of the beaver at the recent Herkimer, NY auction, and he told me he sent several hundred beaver to FHA. So I don’t understand why so many would rather sell to a middle man at local auctions that also charge a commission, than sell direct to FHA ?

Who said anything about PTing beaver?

FH needs to make money to stay in business.

They don’t make money by burning goods or by letting pelts sit in their warehouse.

They made over $350.00 on the 100 coyotes I bought. May seem like chump change but it all ads up in the big picture.

Looks like beaver numbers are up about 14,000 more than last year's March sale.

I'm going to give the scenario. FHA sets a minimum offering price at the Auction to start the bidding process. Nobody bids. After fur has been offered at this price and nobody bid and it did not sell, the fur is offered PT for 10% more than it was offered by Auction. How is this selling fur cheap? And how is this bad for the trapper?

Assuming your scenario is actually what happens. Seems like a win win for every one.

But if PT sales weren’t allowed, those pelts would sit there for another 3 or 9 months. Who knows what the market would do in that time. Could go up. Could go down. Could stay the same. Perhaps a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

With PT sales, shipper gets his money. FH makes their commission and empties space in their warehouse. Win win.

I fixed it for you, Nancy !!!

w

How do buyers steal the pelts and shippers get robbed?????

According to dirt’s scenario, the shippers got 10% MORE than FH wanted in the auction room.. if anything, the buyers over paid!!

Is that 10 percent negotiable ,..meaning, sure it was offered at such. Does that step down?,..I don't know.
From a buyer perceptive I would feel better if I lost in initial bidding and could recoup private treaty sales.

Take the flippin’ PT room away and people will be bidding. Duh

I agree with you Squash. I see it the same way. I wish I could have got my beaver onto the FHA sale but with no agent in our area and shipping not feasible I'm forced for now to sell via local auctions.

Have you ever listen to one of the sales . Most times there is very little bidding going on. Most fur is bought, it appears, at the minimum offering price. If there is real action, nothing ever goes PT.

lets try this scenario. I am a manufacturer of bobcat coats. So I got enough inventory to last me thru the selling season .Nancy runs the fur dept. at a high end store in Beverly hills. September a couple very rich men come in the store and they say to Nancy we want to buy ten bobcat coats for Christmas gifts. Now Nancy calls me and says I got these rich buyers who want 10 bobcat coats. I say Nancy I do not have enough inventory on hand to make the 10 coats. Nancy says to me, I will give you a 100 grand on top of the price to get it done. So I call up Mark at Fur Harvesters and say I need 100 good bobcats. Do you think for a minute he is gonna say sorry I can't sell them to ya till next March. If you owned the bobcats would you rather Mark hold them until next march auction or sell them at a strong market price now?

I disagree. If the buyers do not want or need the goods they will not bid. Unless they can set the price, which FH will not allow them to do. FH sets limits and sticks to those limits most of the time.

When I went to buy my 100 eastern coyotes in November - 6 months AFTER the May sale - they had over 5,000 eastern coyotes for me to choose from. Plus who knows how many western and central coyotes. Those coyotes were NOT bid on at the May sale. No body wanted them. I’m willing to bet that the bulk of the unsold coyotes from the May 2023 sale will be on the upcoming sale in March. And again, unless FH lowers the value, no one will want them again. So they continue to sit.

Squash - you don’t sell TO FH. You sell through FH. They are a middle man.

If you want to eliminate the middle man, sell directly to the manufacturer. If you can find him and if you have what he needs.

Bidders flying to North Bay to sit there and not bid on fur. That’s a problem!

Why are they there then? To buy fur in the PT room. That’s not an auction at all.

And why wouldn’t they bid on fur when it’s being offered? That’s what they’re there to do right?

These guys are drinking coffee and BS’ing with the other buyers, then when the sale is over they buy their goods in the PT room. Pat the workers on the back and see you later.

You havent been around long enough.JP.
Lots of times things get hot on the auction floor.
There is nothing left for PT so those that snooze lose.
The PT room is good in a down market to move some fur that is not in high demand

If you really want a lot and don't want to bid and wait to try to get it PT for min plus 10%, how do you guarantee somebody does not buy it ahead of you PT? What if lots around it get bid way up to the new valuation: it will be more than min plus 10% in the PT room.

I like to use this example when supporting PT sales.

You live in remote northern Alaska. You can go to the grocery store only two (2) times a year once in March and once in June. You have to do all your provisioning for the entire year on those 2 occasions. Everything you need - sugar, flour, salt, bullets, chewing tobacco, EVERYTHING!!

If you misjudge and run out of sugar in January, you are out of luck until March. No 7-11 to go to. No bush plane to bring you supplies. Nothing.

To my way of thinking, that is exactly like not having PT sales. A furrier has 2 chances to buy pelts. Tough if he doesn’t anticipate a last minute order like in Slick Pan’s scenario.

When I’ve used that example in the past, people have told me it’s not the same. Some one please explain to me why my grocery store scenario is not the same as no PT sales at FH.

I’m waiting…………

And again, unless FH lowers the value, no one will want them again. So they continue to sit.

And for that reason FH PT them and some will want them.

I can buy sugar from my neighbor who also shopped twice a year, but has extra inventory. Of course my neighbor will sell that sugar for more than he paid for it. Another middleman.

I suggest you buy more than you think you’ll need. Plan ahead, right?

If you buy more than you need, and you get a couple surprise orders and end up selling out. You’re rich!
Buy more on the next sale.

They got a big list of buyers registered for the auction-no need for pt most likely why they cancelled it.
More buyers than fur available.

I’m sure with no PT room, and if FHA holds true to that for years to come, someone or many will start a small business to sell fur on the side.
Buying the fur at the auction than selling it here and there.

Heck, they can name the business The PT Room.

That sounds good.

I think when we have that low of numbers and the prices at the levels they are some firms, buyers, brokers whatever we choose to call them can have a broker they know who is going bid and buy for them. If there is a firm that would hope to buy 2 million or so in fur and they will spend 30K traveling. What is it to them to buy say 20,000 more rats for someone else? They have the money and there is less overhead in the purchase. Sure they will pay a premium to the attending buyer but that door can swing both ways.
One can sure see the coon market is off with 15,000 coons on the sale!! 300,000 rats is more than I had thought they may offer, but it sure will let us know the price and the demand. High clearance would be more important to me for the future then say and added 50 cents or so on more limited numbers.
PT to me provides other options within that auction house that I feel are an advantage overall for me. With the auction house living on commissions they can only earn revenues when items are purchased or shipped or handled etc. I have only had 1 time when the PT sales were quite a bit below the auciton prices for similar fur. I have trusted financial planners and firms with my retirement funds for decades. There service to our family has returned us very well indeed. Some costs are investments. I sure don't get too bothered by a firm holding onto a few hundred dollars of my fur for a few month to a year or so.
Bryce

I think the rats are 3 years worth?

Mark, where to heck is my 100 bobcats I need ? Mark said sorry we cannot sell them to you we only have 5000 on hand and we are gonna hold them till March. But Mark, I said I would give you an extra 50k for those bobcats and you can split that with the seller. What do you suppose the seller is gonna say when Mark tells him, sorry we are not doing any private treaty sales now you will have to wait till the next March sale and your check will be mailed in May if we can get them sold then.

High clearance would be more indicative of a rising market,..that sounds good also.

After the sale if you call FHA you should get an automated answering machine. Next sale in 6 months, see you there!

I can 150% guarantee Mark is selling those 100 bobcats to me PT.

There you go! No need for capitulation. You want the fur,..buy it!

Didn't know FHA had a monopoly? Maybe groeny can oblige?

The thing is I have ways to contact Mark and so does every buyer who needs fur. There will be no see you in March when I want to buy $150,000 worth of cats.

Maybe you should of bought them on auction?

I would suggest you start at the being of my post with Nancy the store owner and read the whole scenario. If you can't get the point then well god help us all!

I remarked to the post above and will say,.if you want the fur buy it!

I have no reply

That works if you have unlimited capital or a rich relative or an understanding banker. But some buyers have limited financial resources, especially smaller buyers.

Another option is to buy fur on credit with FH. You pay 35% by prompt date, then finance the rest at 18% interest. Not sure of the exact repayment terms because I don’t do that. I stay within my budget.

If you finance with FH and don’t keep up your end of the bargain, FH will eventually resell the goods, take their commission and the money you owe them and you get what is left. A good way to get out of the fur business.

Keep in mind - once prompt date arrives, the shipper gets paid even if FH hasn’t gotten paid by the buyer. I’m sure Mark Downey could tell you some horror stories about that.

Has any of the buyers heard if they are running the online auction again like last sale?

For those that did not see/read about it, they had the catalogues up on a buyers login. Buyers could put in max bid's online for a lot. When that lot came up they started it at the auction house estimate and the room bid against the online bid. To clarify they did not start at the max bid unless it matched the auction houses lowest amount they would take. Bid's on the floor where taken and when there was no more if the max bid was higher the auctioneer would call out he had the bid at the next amount. A fair amount of time it added some value to the lot. If there was a tie it went to the bidder on the floor.

Think it was a great way to get some of the smaller/medium production customers into the game.

What kind of company puts out a news release DURING CHINESSE NEW YEAR and expect it to be read by 75% of the buyers that are going to be there with money ?
and taking away the PT room.....something is fishy

are not most of the cats sold in the last auction of the year as well...

Nancy it was good that you bought the crowd down at FHA Christmas pizza with that 350$......are things not to be paid out at year end on sales I ask.

And cutting off internet sales 2 days before the hammer falls...when did that come into play

rotten fishy

I vote JP as their new CFO

You are incorrect , Obviously I do not sell to FH, they are only the auctioneer. I never said that sending fur to FHA is selling to them. But why would someone sell to a local buyer who then turns around and sends fur to FHA auctioneers ? Except as beaverpeeler points out if shipping costs are unfeasible.

Greony's Canadian shill? Definitely noticing a pattern.

Man, I'm gonna be rollin in dough!!!!!

Im not sure I understand.....PT is fixed prices, right? The only battle I could see would be bidding at auction.

What if they sold out of cats during the auction because some buyers took the “no pt sales” seriously?

The higher end cats are expensive. The buyers have orders before the sale starts. They will not be buying any extra. They will fill the orders they have. The private treaty sales on cats usually occur if there are are orders later after the June sale. I have been watching the cat market for a very long time. They NEVER have sold out due to the minimums. If the buyer wants to buy latter private treaty there will not be any negotiations on price on the smaller lots because FHA will tell them they will hold them to the next sale. Almost all the higher end cats in the FHA are owned by a very few sellers. If FHA comes up with an order after the June sale the owners are contacted to see if they wish to negotiate the price if needed but if you own a couple cats yours will not be included in the sale, they will be held over.

Because you are paid now. If you own 5 rats are you gonna send them to fur harvesters and wait for your money? Not unless you hope you will win a top lot hat

Check the past sale you will see how many cats are sold in June

Just so you know the FHA is owned by trappers. Now maybe NAFTA was like that but as you can see they are no longer in business.

And you know this how??

The auction is over a month away. I’m willing to bet most buyers haven’t registered yet. The registration email hasn’t even been sent out yet.

I would say it is a fixed flexible price. I know for a fact FHA has called buyers making offers for them to buy PT fur. The more they take the cheaper it is per head. It is called cleaning the floor.

You would understand the "PT battle" comment if you knew or dealt with Oscar at NAFA.

I’ve dealt with Oscar multiple times. You needed a strategy to be successful. A system of “give and take”. Worked for me once I figured it out.

I think Nancy was talking about the battle on here. That is how I took it anyway. The battle with Oscar is dead and gone. The PT room is a great way to clean the floor, if you are a big enough buyer and they think you may have interest, they will call and play "lets make a deal"

Northof50 - addressing 2 questions you raised.

Internet bidding ends 2 days before auction room bidding starts. I think the reason for that is the technology to have live internet bidding at the same time as room bidding is too expensive (maybe too complex) for FH system. An all internet bidding worked fine during COVID but isn’t necessary now. But for us small buyers, it is nice to be able to bid online without have to travel to North Bay.

Shipper accounts are settled 3 times a year (at least that is my understanding). 3 weeks after the first sale, 3 weeks after the second sale, at the end of the fiscal year (some time in late October). Since I bought those coyotes in November, those shippers will be paid along with the sellers at the March sale. Make sense???

I'm still confused about this Chinese new years problem and who the heck NAFTA was?

Many folks confuse NAFA with NAFTA. After all, they sort of sound alike.

And you wonder why they don’t understand how fur sales work………….

I think I've got it: Nafa went away because Trump couldn't get Mexico to pay for the wall.

understandable

I think I have a pretty good idea how they work.

NAFTA Certificate of Origin
Key Tips:

The exporter is responsible for filling out the NAFTA Certificate of Origin, not the importer.
Once an exporter has determined the product qualifies for NAFTA, the exporter needs to fill out a NAFTA Certificate of Origin UNLESS the product going to Canada or Mexico is valued at LESS than $1,000 USD. In these cases, the exporter simply needs to make a written declaration on the commercial invoice stating that the product is NAFTA qualifying.
Once the Certificate is completed, the exporter needs to send the original or a copy of the Certificate of Origin to the importer. It is recommended that a copy of the Certificate of Origin is also included with the shipment. The exporter is required to keep all documentation of NAFTA claims five years from the date of importation or such longer period as a Party may specify after the completion of the transaction.

I was down there talking to everybody.

Boco:

"I was down there talking to everybody."

I am sure you must be wrong. Nancy seems to have a better handle on the market and none of us should know more about it than her.

but their year end is 31 Dec and all accounts are to be paid out
under Canadian banking laws they have to pay interest on moneys owed....but that is another bag of worms
they sure charge interest on advances given in past years

I am not familiar with Canadian banking laws. I will defer to your knowledge of that subject since you are Canadian.

I’m not sure what the “year” is called but I am quite sure one of FH’s “years” ends the last part of October. That is when they send out “year end” statements to buyers for shipping charges and misc money owed to FH. Has been that way for a number of years.

Wissmiss as a fur buyer,has a lot of invaluable information that she shares on here.
A great asset to T-Man.

In Nancy's scenario, FHA made considerably more money than the trapper who caught the coyotes did. That is probably going to rub more than a few trappers wrong, possibly?? What is the current drumming charge per coyote? It sounds like several buyers are pro-PT room, and several trappers are anti-PT room........ go figure both sides have raised some good points

According to her no one knows more than her not even boco so that must be the case. I am sure you were never there and did not talk with anyone. Probably fabricated the truth to make yourself look good.

I sell quite a bit of fur outside of the auction house and not to the raw fur market in the summer months
The two things that is important to me,the seller is clearance and price.
I set my price based on my supply.If I sell too cheap everything will sell out and I am left with no inventory for future sales until I can go get more on the line for next season.If I have a high inventory and want it to clear,I will have to drop my price.Conversely if my inventory is low I can raise the price so it will take longer to sell.In either case my inventory will be cleared preferably right at the end of the selling season.You wind up losing customers when you run out of inventory because they will find somewhere else to acquire what they want.
If my prices are too high I wont sell enough and will have inventory left over and more coming next year.
When selling a commodity it is a balancing act you have to basically juggle your price up and down to meet the market and clear all your inventory by the end of the season before the goods come in for the next selling season.Lots of times you adjust up or down as you go.
No different for selling commoditys anywhere at any scale.basic laws of supply and demand.

Trapped4ever - in your post, you said FH made more money off the coyotes I bought than the trapper did. How do you know that.

I did not mention what I paid for the coyotes. FH has to make money to pay their bills and stay in business.

On any given pelt, FH charges 3 fees, in many cases, 2 additional fees may be charged.

The 3 set fees are -

11% commission charged to the seller based on hammer price.

8.2% commission charged to the buyer based on hammer price.

Packing/handling fee charged to the buyer, varies by species
Muskrat 50 cents per pelt
Coyote $3.50 per pelt
Grizzly bear $100.00 per pelt.

Possible additional fees -

Shipping fee charged to the seller. $15.00 per shipment in most cases for US shippers. This is a per shipment fee no matter the number of pelts. If you send 5 muskrats, you pay $15.00. If you send 500 muskrats you pay $15.00. There is a provision that if the total of your goods sold is less than $100.00, the $15.00 fee is waived.

Drumming fee - charged for all long hair fur - coyote, bobcat, fox, marten, wolves, etc. the charge varies by species. Last time I checked, the coyote drumming fee was $1.50. It may have increased.


Let’s compare the figures. For simplicity sake, I have not factored in the seller shipping fee because it is a big unknown

If FH sells a coyote for $100.00, they make $24.20. Shipper gets $87.50

If FH sells a coyote for $5.00, they make $5.96. Shipper gets $2.95.

Note - I double checked the math but I’m sure some one will let me know if I made an error.

Wissmiss,
I misunderstood your earlier post, I looked back at it and realized you are stating FHA MADE $350, NOT that that is what you paid. I thought you bought some cheap/ junk fur as in coyotes at $3.50 each....
Your $5 coyote scenario showed exactly what I was attempting to refer to, as an example of how much higher of a percentage of the money generated, that FHA retains on the lower value furs.

Trapped4ever - I agree with you 110% about the high percentage that FH makes on lower value fur.

That is one reason FH has a problem selling low value fur. And why they discourage trappers from shipping low grade fur. The handling fee is greater than the hammer price. 50 cent handling on a 10 cent ermine. Doesn’t pencil out for the trapper or the buyer.

The charging of handling and packing fees only started in the early 1990s (or their abouts). Up to that point it had been strictly a percent commission. It was about that time that the fur market tanked big time. And the folks at NAFA were “losing money”, so they started charging a packing fee, so much a pelt based on species. FH followed suit.

The packing/handling fees at FH are set in stone (to the best of my knowledge), when bidding on and buying Section 3 goods, I’ve mentioned the relatively high fee compares to pelt price and every time, I’m told “nothing can be done about that fee.

Where excessive fees really make money is in the regular commerical goods.

Not hard to shallow all the extra fees on the top end goods when you look at the overall cost to purchase.

Where it hurts the shippers is the buyers know exactly what the cost are and I believe CITES extra fees are not in the discussion but never the less hurt the trapper for example low otter averages.

Fees isolate the auction company from the hammer price as the money is not legtimately made off a auction commission.

Instead of working harder to get the best possible price for the trapper they rely on extra charges on both ends of the auction process.

Averages are given to the trapper before all the extra fees are deducted.

For example a $40 marten average is bullsh-t after you factor in the drumming charge $1.50, in are case here in Ontario $2.60 royality fee, 11%commission $4.40 shipping $15. magazine charge $10.

A $40 gross average becomes a $30 net average

Add the effect of buyer charges and you have packing fees and commission fees that while the trapper doesn't think they pay the buyer has to account for this charge so the hammer price is dropped.

Fees are killing the industry.

Gibb - not sure on the sellers end but on the buyers end, the fee for CITES paperwork is included in the packing/handling fee. For what it is worth. I think packing/handling on otter and bobcat is $10.00.

That's my point a $10 fee on the back end on a $30 dollar otter average is 33% of the hammer price which is directly taken out of the trappers pocket.

$2.00 handling $8 CITES fee

Fha is the biggest middleman in the industry.

Take away the fees and the hammer price would go by supply and demand.

Padding the bottom line with fees kills the industry. They look great on a spread sheet on a financial report but kill the business.

OK, If you read that kinda fast it sounds like the next fur boom is here. Boco I admire your optimism.

I’m not following your thinking.

Hammer price on a $30.00 otter. Buyer pays an additional.$12.46. Buyers cost is $42.46 and the otter hasn’t even left the FH building.

Or are you talking about fees the seller pays??

Not sure of the maths Jim. Around here a $40 hammer marten, after 11% commission and .75 drumming gets u $34.85 not $30. Ontario royalty fee only comes off for Ontario origin fur and, to the best of my knowledge, comes off regardless of where the fur is sold not just FHA. $15 shipping fee, regardless of how much fur u ship, is a deal compared to Post Office or commercial carrier. And no shipping fee deducted on less than $100 worth of fur shipped is good for the little guys/beginners. The magazine, and the $10 charge for it, were dropped a couple of years now.

What have I missed?

Nancy you know exactly what the extra fees cost you so you bid accordingly. If all the extra fees added on were not there you could bid more.

The laws of supply and demand would up the hammer price and the trapper would receive more for their catch.

It is not really a commission base auction anymore.

Frank if you are happy with the deal good for you.

No where on their site are drumming fees listed.

On their website it shows $10 for the magazine maybe if they update the site they could communicate with the trappers better.

Fee loading definately incentifies fha towards clearance

Not a matter if happy w the deal or not Jim. The $40 marten is worth $34.85 not $34. Drumming fees listed in catalogue for each sale which is publicly posted before the sale.

Good point about updating website - not their strong point but couple of years now since $10 fee and magazine existed.

Why didnt you get rid of those fees when you were on the board and worked at FHA,and when you were on the board of directors at Nafa.
You are a disgruntled ex employee,and now a competitor is why you changed your spots.

This is not true,people buy what they want and any costs are passed on to those who buy from them.
I know this well with the increase in tanning costs.I dont tan any less but I did have to increase my prices to cover inflation.

OUCH !!!!

True Dat !!!!!

BOCO just hit the nail squarely on the head.

However,

The skin game is the most corrupt, crooked, & diabolical
industry in North America and that's putting it mildly.

All the major players have dirt on their hands.

walleyed

If you back calculate what the buyers are actually paying for pelts, then you can estimate what the mark up the local fur buyer is getting for his pelts selling to the same end users. I'm not sure FHA is the biggest middleman?

P.S. I'm not going to ship them $40 marten. Just so they know.

Pretty sure your marten would do much better than that dirt.
But not as much as you get hawking them to the cruise ship tourists.

What do I get hawking them to cruise ship tourist? Where do you come up with this stuff? I'm aware of FHA's marten strategy this year.

BTW How do you know gibb did not advocate for getting rid of fees when he was on those boards and maybe nobody listened to him?

Crosspatch - drumming fees listed in the catalog???

Really? I’ve never seen them listed in the catalog and I’ve seen lots of FH catalogs over the years. Why would they be listed? Buyers don’t care what fees the sellers pay and the catalog is for the buyers.

Packing/handling fees are listed in the catalog because the buyer needs to know what he will be charged.

Their website is a joke. Little Mom and pop stores have better. Oh yes be patient and eventually you’ll get your check, results, grading . I suppose but customers don’t like it but I’m getting of the opinion they don’t want a lot of fur or customers . Heck of a way to run a business.

Good point Wissmiss - why would buyers care about drumming fees. Saw them somewhere. Must try and find out where. Thanks for the correction.

Did some looking under FHA site and closest can find is under "Shipping to FHA" are "Conditions of Sale". Conditions list 11% commission and drumming fees but do not list those fees. Contacted Cheryl at FHA and asked her to send me what they are. If I get them will ask her to post under "Conditions of Sale".

This^^^ is what I don't understand about FHA.

If you don't like the FHA website you could try NAFA. They have had a great website and live auction broadcast!

Dirt makes an excellent point. All the extra costs of running routes, additional handling, CITES fees, + profit margins are built in to the price payed by local buyers, just not itemized for everyone to complain about.

Go shop at Montgomery Ward buddy Just lucky they will have auctions attitude ?

Safe to say you really don't know what you are paying, as the drumming fees are not transparent on the web site.

Magazine according to their web site;

https://furharvesters.com/publications.html
The Fur Harvesters Magazine
The Fur Harvester is published annually to promote a better understanding of Canada's founding industry. Articles within the magazine should not necessarily be viewed as official FHA policy. If you are not a shipper but would like to receive our magazine, please send us a cheque or money order in the amount of $10.00 and you will receive the next two issues of The Fur Harvester.

If that is not the case anymore do you think they may need to work on updating the site?

At the end of the day if you are happy good for you.

Feb 14 -17
Auction offer
Sojuzpushnina offers wild and farm furs.



Catalogues of February auction
Joint catalogue

Sable wild raw

AC Sojuzpushnina catalogues

Sable farm raw

Baum marten raw

Mink farm raw

Fox, blue fox

That fee and magazine gone for a couple of years and yes website needs work. Communications not FHA's strongest point for a while now.

It's as if it was a bunch of trappers own and run this place!

Know a few trappers with great computer skills. I am glad we have FHA.

we should all be happy we have FHA

FHA drumming fees.

Marten, fisher and fox .75. Wolf and yote 1.00 and lynx and bobcat 1.10. Fees have not changed in years.

That wasn't my point. As far as people complaining about fees. You want the agent (FHA) to be dependent on price to make their cut. If the agent 's cut is a only a percent of price he will have more incentive to get higher prices. If the agent will be making most of his money off fees, price won't be that important to him, clearance will be. I want the highest price at 90% clearance. IMHO if they sell 100% most times they sold too cheap.

They sold beaver 100% last year. Did they go too cheap?

Was there bidding?

Lets just say the bidding was spirited.
I believe they sold some for quite a bit more than they were worth.

I have forgotten how the lot and string stuff works? I would appreciate it if Boco or Wissmiss or gibb or anybody in the know would explain how high bidders on one lot can somehow get the whole string? I may have this wrong?

You have it right. The high bidder can take one lot in the string, multiple lots or the whole string.

If he or she doesn't take them all the rest are offered at the hammer price. If they all aren't taken the remainders are auctioneer again.

Yes

Thank You Steven

I doubt if you will see the lesser goods selling way overvalue this year,like last year.
The better goods will bring premiums and the lesser goods will sell accordingly,which is how it should be,but you never know when the bidding gets stupid like last year.

String lots are more complicated than that. Some times you need a white board with XS and Os to follow the action.

I’ll go into more detail when I have time and feel like typing. It all has to do with timing and the drop of the hammer.

Thank You! wissmiss

Always appreciated Nancy

About 1/3 of what I sent up 3 years ago are there.

walleyed has around 3 fall and/or
spring season's rats still up there.

Bug dust !!!

w

Frank where on their site does it say shipping fee is waived for small shipments?
I see Labrador is $17 not $15?

String Lots

If a buyer bids up a string lot they can take the whole string.

If they only take a few lots in the string it goes back to the next bidder

They normally ask for a drop in a big string, you will hear the auctioneer either agree or not, a lot of times the auctioneer will drop a buck or two on the last string lot not the sample lot.

If the demand is strong a drop can lead to another buyer bidding up what is left in the string to take control and buy the rest of the string.

Sometimes when the market is soft you have multiple buyers in on string lots which can be very confusing for the auctioneer and anybody listening to the auction.

Sucks to be the trapper most times in the last lot of a big string.

Sometimes when you listen to the auction the auctioneer will say no drop either the demand is really good or the price is so low the auctioneer will not drop the price anymore.

Chinese buyers always ask for a drop in a weak market and a lot of times you will hear the auctioneer say no drop.

Fun to listen too a strong market and you hear the hammer drop for all the lots no so much when the market is weak and there are multiple drops.

Gibb has given you a simplified version of string lots. It can get much more complicated and some times politics gets involved.

A bidder can “drop” “out” “up”. All timed to the drop of the hammer. Unless otherwise stated by the auctioneer, the hammer drops for each lot as it is sold. That can happen very fast!! That is why you will see different prices for various lots in the string.

I would post an example but I think for most of you it would be too confusing. And you would ask too many questions.

What Wissmiss said in her post P. 5 1:15 AM this thread. Heard it before too but do not recall where. Does not appear to be on FHA site and again some clarity there would help.

Here is a link to the pick up schedule for the State of New York.

https://www.furharvesters.com/pickups/edwards.pdf

If you look at the very bottom there is a note about shipping fees. And the fact they are waiver for less than $100.00 of fur.

Maybe it is a US thing

The note is different on the Canadian pick up schedules.

I looked through all of the 19 listings for US pickups. Every one is the same $15.00. No fee under $100.00.

Not sure what else to say. I know what I saw. No fee if goods sell for under $100.00. Not sure what else to say.

Crosspath every prov has at the bottom a listing of the charges. BUT_BUT if you drop off at a depo there should be no charge

till they mess up your name with someone else and it takes 3 months for the glitch to be settled been my personal experience

Well this clears something up. I have never had this shipping charge that people post about on here, because it is really a pick up charge.

Nothing on Canada pick up scheds re waiver of shipping fee for less than $100 shipment that I can see. Think it exists though but can not find.

No shipping charge Canada for fur dropped/delivered to collection depot. Shipping charge only for fur picked up by shipping agent. Charge $15 or $17 depending on which area/agent. Canada

Just another example of a money grab from Canadian (Ontario)shippers, I guess we are both right in this cause a good example of another Fha indiscretion to it's Canadian shippers, one of the biggest complaints I get from trappers is the shipping cost, many have multiple licenses and family members who ship small amounts of fur to keep their points going for the registered trapline system we have here in Ontario.
None of the Canadian routes have this caveat.

On a positive note I am hearing that the Russian Sable sale is up 20% from December.

Great news for Marten trappers.

Maybe not, if they already sold to a furbuyer. There is next year.

With the lack of international fur sales and the late sale dates for the only one left, the season is over before anybody knows what the market is.

I get a real chunkle out of someone bragging they set the market lol.

Ya they set the market for next year.

Hard for trappers to know where to put the effort into during the trapping season.

It's an educated gamble.

Everybody knows BOCO sets the market in the Province of Ontario !!!

When the Canadian Super Trapper talks........the fur market listens !!!

BOCO is the E.F. Hutton of the fur industry world-wide !!!

w

Looking through the sold catalogs, it appears whatever the first lot in a string is bid to that basically sets the price for the string? A few drops and few increases in later lots.

-------------------------------------------- 3 ---------------------------------------------------------------
[ 19.00] |*** S O L D ****
104 - 10260 STR 70 LG SELECT SEMI BRN | |
1 | |
STRING CONTINUED NEXT PAGE
BEAVER PAGE: 126
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- CON'T
EASTERN [ 20.00] |*** S O L D ****
| |
104 - 10261 ... 70 | |
2 | |
[ 28.00] |*** S O L D ****
104 - 10262 ... 70 | |
3 | |
[ 28.00] |*** S O L D ****
104 - 10263 ... 70 | |
4 | |
[ 28.00] |*** S O L D ****
104 - 10264 ... 70 | |
5 | |
[ 28.00] |*** S O L D ****
104 - 10265 END 7 ** 357 ** |

The way I read this. Is the first lot was bid to $19. Somehow the next lot got bid up to $20. Then the third lot got bid up to $28 and the rest of the lots sold for $28

BTW this was an unusual one. Looks like some" ups"?

Does not normally go this way, indicative of a strong market demand, last year was the perfect storm very little supply and all of a sudden a demand exceeding the supply.

When lots get bid up the market is rising a good thing.

You are kidding about not knowing, right??

It was a rhetorical question. However, no way for me personally to know. I don't listen to the auction. They may have just raised valuation and everybody took those beaver at minimums. I'm a long way from North Bay and I don't sell beaver there and most likely never will. I have different markets.

You got that right.
I'm a glass half full man.

Not a glass half empty like Gibb and Dirt.

Boco
Better known by trappers in Ontario as our token "Post Turtle"

This post seems somewhat flaming & derogatory !!!

w

this post seems somewhat true!!!!

HA HA nothing new from the gibber,lol.

What's a post turtle?

something to keep this thread going....just think the auction is only a month away
and only 9 pages with 9K views
these old threads use to have 3 times the views....

oh by the way Rat Masterson seems that Gibb did a Sheldon Bazinga

RIP NAFA.

Post turtle is someone whose slow to respond…..LOL. No, I had to search it.

“An old rancher pinched his hand in a squeeze gate to the point of needing stiches. While his doctor was stitching him up their conversation came around to politics, when the doctor asked the old man what he thought of the current President.
The rancher responded by saying he thought the President was no more than a "Post Turtle."
He further explained, "When you're driving down an old country road and you come up upon a turtle balanced on a fence post, that's a post turtle."
Noting the curious look on the doctor's face, he realized that the doctor still did not understand, so he continued, "You know he didn't have the ability to get there himself, he has no idea how he got there or what he's doing, he has no natural ability to accomplish anything from there, and you can't help but wonder what idiot put him there. You can only pity him, for the injuries he'll receive when he falls from that post."
Pretty dang funny right there!

Thanks, that explains some of what went on last auction. I could hear bidders asking if they got past lots, and the auctioneer saying no. Some lots in the same string getting a few bucks more that the one previous. Bidder confusion and missing out before the the hammer drops.

HA HA,I didnt know what he was talking about
The gibber fell off the post twice,lol once at FHA and once at NAFA,lol.

this question is for all the post turtles and those select few that know:

what is the percentage of fur consigned by individual trappers to FHA? by fur buyers to FHA ?

Slick, I have about 1% of the rats offered, does that help.

Actually Post Turtle is not the best description of Wahbush; After going to a meeting one time and meeting him, a really good friend of mine looked at me and said " That's the smartest dumb guy I ever meet"

That happens when a number of buyers have the same bid on a lot, a really good auctioneer knows how to feed the room the late Kevin Douse was the best I ever seen at this. He made sure all the buyers bought fur, a bad auctioneer hammers down all the goods to one buyer and that is really bad for the trade.At times you will hear the auctioneer pause trying to sort this out, can be very confusing and chaotic.
There can be a lot going on during an live auction and most folks don't always understand what is going on.
A really good auctioneer will call out the bidders # not the bidder's name.

That is a start. Not knowing you except your occasional post do you buy them to resell or do you trap them ?

I am in hopes those who claim to know like Nancy, Boco and Gibb could give us a better understanding of exactly what's what.

I am not going to be any help on this question. Hesitant to even take a guess.

I think gibb would have some insight because he has worked behind the scenes at both NAFA and FH.

It is a very interesting question though.

The majority of the fur will be intersorted trapper goods, small time buyers would also be intersorted,

Bigger buyers aka dealers with enough goods to put up on their own will have limits and if you listen to the auction you will hear the auctioneer offer them out at the limit or if the auction is going badly simple state those lots have limits.

Most big time dealers have direct contacts into the trade to move goods, where they ship to auction is mainly but not only, species they don't have buyers for.

When you buy directly from the trappers you sometimes buy drips n drags that you may not have a home for. Say you buy a few dozen otter from beaver trappers they may ship the otter to auction.

Bigger players will sell at auction making prearranged deals on commission and limits.

The auction house much preffer intersorted trapper goods because they can sell them freely into the market and make their money on packing and other fees.

Gibb stated it very well.

If you study the catalog, you can usually tell which lots are intersorts and which lots are dealer. Intersorts come first, then dealer lots with limits, then goods that were bought back at previous sales.

Since goods from small dealers are intersorted with trapper goods, not sure you could get a breakdown of those 2 groups.

I take that as a compliment compared to what your ex co workers say about you,lol.

I am not a fur buyer.

It is a sad day indeed when the Canadian/ Ontario Dynamic Duo
of the Great White Northern fur industry are at loggerheads
due to their larger-than-life, super sized, triple extra large egos !!!

Can't we all just get along ?

w

Gibster,

Are you now confirming that the trapper, "Formerly known as BOCO"
and permanently banned from the Canadian trapping site is now
masquerading & lurking as WAHBUSH to avoid further expulsions ?

Too funny !!!! lol, lol, lol.

w

Careful Walleyed or the gibber wont send you a free Groeny magazine,lol.

Unfortunate that this thread has turned in to a name calling personality bickering contest.

It would be nice if just once an informative thread could stay on tract.

The days of a fur buyer in every town are done, what is left on the landscape are dealers who mainly have contacts right into the trade.

The odd trapper starts buying but is quickly wiped out by the cost involved, there is no margin in putting up carcass goods at todays prices.

More folks getting out of the fur business than getting in.

Just compare the numbers of pelt being offered to what was being offered 10 years ago.

In Ontario back during the 1980's we produced an average of 150,000 beaver per year, the latest data 2022 under 30,000.

So I take it no one has the numbers ? I do know that at one time the majority of the western cats were dealer consigned. Which makes sense because at the higher price level most trappers would sell in the country rather than hold and ship.

I think if the true numbers were know you would be surprised at the high amount that is dealer consigned be it smaller or larger dealers. I am sure there are a very few larger dealers that have some connection in the trade but not all buyers want every cat or beaver produced for example so there are orders for a certain # and that may be all they can sell.

I agree with Slick Pan about western bobcats. In fact , I could name names but won’t. When NAFA went belly up, one western cat dealer flew to Toronto picked up his cats and drove them to North Bay. Not sure if they are still there or not.

SP makes a very good point about goods dealers don’t really want but are “forced” to buy them to get what they want. FH is a good way for them to sell those unwanted goods.

A buyer goes to a trappers house and wants to buy only certain items. Many trappers want to sell the entire collection. What is a buyer to do with 7 possum and 3 raccoon when he came to buy beaver and otter. Send the possum and raccoon to FH.

Creditor Name Address1 Address2 City Province/State Postal Code Country Amount ($)
VAN ANSEM PARTICIPATIES BV HAZENHUTSEDIJK 11 DE RIPS NL-5764 RP THE NETHERLANDS 9,305,394
BROS TR DITSIOS & CO SA (SPECIAL - SEE ALSO 2703) (DEPOSIT ACCOUNT) DISPILIO KASTORIA 52057 GRC 1,762,414
JONI MINK VAN ANSEM SP.J. J. & N. VAN ANSEM GOLENIOW 72-110 POLAND 1,654,014
SPRINGBROOK FUR FARMS LIMITED 1561 BERLETTS RD ST AGATHA ON N0B 2L0 CANADA 1,374,581
MUELLER FLESHING & SUPPLY 19309 COUNTY ROAD 141 KIMBALL MN 55353 USA 1,349,721
AG RONECO FARM SRL BRASOV STR. MATEI BASARAB, NR 12, APT 3 BRASOV ROMANIA 1,330,064
W BROWN FARM LTD 45622 207TH ARLINGTON SD 57212 USA 1,257,475
GEBR-A DO NOT MAIL POLAND POLAND 1,032,912
MICHAEL'S FURS/MONTANA FUR TRADERS MICHAEL PAPPAS 2270 WEST WASHINGTON BLVD LOS ANGELES CA 90018 USA 972,852
W.P.C HEIJDEN FINEST FURS MARIAHOUT THE NETHERLANDS 685,265
V.O.F. VAN GOG-RELOU-COLLATERAL LAREN 4A 5763 PB MILHEEZE THE NETHERLANDS 62

My guess somebody on the list who's dad's name was Ted?

Western bobcats is a very niche market and yes a lot of end up at the auction.Not sure about today's volume, keep in mind a lot of the really good cats sell late in the season.

I am speaking in more general terms about the main three, beaver, raccoon and muskrats.

Mr, George was a real piece of work.

A lot of us use to wonder out loud why so much time was wasted on so small a volume, takes hours to sell them for little return.

Two days I have been waiting for the sojuzpushnina auction results to be posted online. TWO WHOLE DAYS!

Who do I call to get the ball rolling here?

Up 20% from their December sale.

Mind you I don't trust anything a Russia says.

Now I know who to call. Yep, that is what I'm looking for. Thank You!

Best I can figure from Tatiana's results and the Feb 2023 results that are in Russian and the May 2023 results in English with only about 50% clearance in May is prices are up about 10 percent from Feb. 2023. Better than down.

I just knew I should have studied Russian language
when I was in grade school, high school, and university !!!

Russia: "A riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma" !!!

w

Gibb, you used to be the poster boy for FHA even calling NAFA the evil empire.

Then you went to work for the EE and saying negative things about FHA.

Now you shill for Groenwold and run down auction houses.

Geeze!

Waffle much? Where is the credibility?

Fees or no fees I am very thankful for the international auctions. Otherwise we'd never see the true value of our fur.

Not known as someone who will tell you what you want to hear.

Been very fortunate to have been involved with a number of organizations.

I am telling you something is wrong with all the fees, if you are happy good for you.

And your contribrution to anything in the fur trade is?

My contribution this year will be more beaver this year than yours will be.

I don't like the fees, I also don't like how route buyers like Groenwold et al help to keep prices depressed.

I should be close to a hundred this year,


Different trapping system then what you have.

100%. There is no incentive to push prices. Add insult to injury, speak candidly on how it’s not a concern if trappers prosper.

Better to be silent and thought a fool than speak and leave no doubt. Not a fan.

However in today’s world I’m not sure FHA is up to the challenges. Sad reality.

Raccoon and muskrats harvest numbers are pretty low due to less demand so trappers and fur buyers may send them. Beaver numbers at auction should be lower because fur buyers can move them into the market and they do not need a middleman.

And that is the reason that trappers get less for their fur than dealers (normally) do. It's a dealers job to separate fur and sell it to who wants to buy certain items, that's what the auctions do. The analogy I like to use to explain this to trappers is, if you went into the grocery store and HAD TO BUY everything on a shelf to get what you want you'd want to pay less or go elsewhere. Same with the fur business, you get more by selling people exactly what they want/need and find markets for everything. I don't think there will be a market for early, not quite fully prime, or late past prime fur for a long time. With the exception of beaver for the hatter market, for as long as that holds out. High quality shearing beaver will sell for much more at FHA than the hatter market will pay for them, they were a good item at retail this year and manufacturers are searching for these quality skins.

Good points Wy Wolfer. M Downey told me a similar story/ the high end mid winter heavy beavers are getting a premium over the hatter goods. Important for the long term survival of Beaver market. Underice trappers like myself should get rewarded on at least the top end pelts. Surprised at low harvest numbers- would increasing prices even help that much? Beavers are hard work for all - especially if you don’t have proven handling skills … so many big beaver trappers are long gone - or getting old. The guys that caught hundreds every season/ not 15 and 40 etc. still happy to see beaver prices advance (while ignoring what was vs inflation)

Yep^^^

Those that continue to trap beaver may have a few more to put on the market, but there are no "new" beaver trappers producing beavers just because of this increase in prices. Ain't happening.

Looks like ole Trapper Ron's system where you use $60,000 worth of equipment to catch $5,000 worth of fur.

Yep that's about right.

Dirt you are well aware that Trapper Ron was put up in North Bay with a collections site just to be a thorn in FHA ( Gibbs) side and pull fur from them.

What am I suppose to make of that?

A hundred is a good catch, a lot of work goes into it.

You are correct, our systems are much different.















What levels are we talking? 80 dollar basis for shearable blanket beaver? That's USD, not CDN. If not you guys are just blowing smoke. If so, i've put together probably the best collection of beaver I ever have. None taken before Dec 1 and 2/3 taken in the last month with traps still in the water. If anyone is interested they will be for sale shortly. '

Boy howdy there is a lot of truth in that statement. I cringe when I hear from a buyer that 30 dollar beaver or 5 dollar rats is good money. Lets see how long the buyer produces them at those levels.

Five dollar rats,..that seems so foreign aside from a one or two adjustment.

I'd take 5 average for spring rats on the carcass.

I would too straight across.

I think he is pretty sure of himself among Kevin Bacon ( Thank you sir! May I have another? ) trappers.

That about sums it up

Just so this does not go to page 2 and nobody sees it
Just a month away 22 March 2024
a little reading
https://www.truthaboutfur.com/chang...e%20Changing%20Fur%20Auction%20Landscape

Good article,but he forgot all about the Russian fur auction houses.

Boco, dirt, gibb and any body else “in the know”, do you agree with the second paragraph - about most North American fur being sold at public auction.

Not looking for a fight - just opinions. Thanks.

Most North American fur is ranch mink.

Please define “most”. Number of pelts? Dollar value? Some other parameter? Just curious.

In terms of current production, how many ranch mink are produced in a year in North America?

AMERICAN MINK EXCHANGE TO OFFER 1.1 MILLION MINK IN THE MAY 2024 LIVE AUCTION.
INSPECTION DATES: MAY 12TH - 14TH
SALE DATES: MAY 15TH - 17TH

Here's 1.1 million multiplied by 30 bucks equals 33 million dollars.

I'm sure there are more.

Mink pelt production in the United States in 2021 totaled 1.44 million pelts, up slightly from 2020. Wisconsin, the largest
mink producing State, produced 579,460 pelts. Utah, the second largest producing State, produced 319,690 pelts.
The number of pelts, by color class, as a percent of the total United States production in 2021 is as follows: Black at
59 percent, Mahogany at 13 percent, White at 9 percent, and Sapphire at 6 percent. The remaining color classes accounted
for 13 percent.
Value of pelts produced during the 2021 crop year was $59.9 million, up 23 percent from $48.6 million the prior year. The
average price per pelt for the 2021 crop year was $41.50, up $7.80 from $33.70 in 2020.

Source: USDA/ Fur Commision USA

2017

About two-thirds of furs produced in Canada (and as much as 85 percent worldwide) come from mink and fox farms.
In Canada, approximately 1.7 million mink pelts are produced by fur farms annually.

Source CMBA

It is probably down from 2017.

For those folks who like to play with Stats here is a link to the production in Canada,

Starts in english at page 19


https://fur.ca/wp-content/uploads/2...DA_-2010-11_2021-22_BILINGUE_Jan2024.pdf

Quebec and Ontario produce most of the fur in Canada.

Numbers are dwindling.

80% of Canadians are in Ontario/Quebec

12 pages of interesting reading mostly related to a company that keeps it's shippers always confused about what lot sold for how much $$, if their pelt was in that lot, and when do they get their check.

Owned by trappers, ran by trappers, etc, etc...but not tech-savvy enough to upgrade their website to keep their shippers better informed.

I have never been confused what pelt my lots sold in, how much they sold for, or roughly when the check was going to show up. Before the internut, all that information came with the check. Still does. Even now I can find out earlier, but it won't change the end game. Only thing that has been confusing, has been NAFA's/FHA's piece of the action and what buyers actually pay for the pelts.

FHA has made strides in these down fur price years to improve their information flow via the internut. I'm not sure why, since money has to be tight. Ask NAFA and ALC.

Other than just Sables, do you know how much wild fur and other ranch goods the Russian fur auctions offer? A pittance.

Waiting to see how many pages of shipper questions there are a day or 2 after the next sale....

Tatiana could answer your question.