First, up front, I've never served, my eyes were generally too bad without corrective lens. The only thing I could do without glasses would be to look at aerial photos about 8 inches away from my face. My brother did, going from private to full colonel over time doing 3 different jobs in the Army; mechanized anti-aircraft artillery, helicopter pilot, and physician. I also knew a lot of guys from the SDANG over time. And finally, I've been reading military history for 50 years.

When I knew most of the SDANG guys, it was mostly transportation and artillery that these guys were in. Self-propelled artillery was the only direct combat arms units that were in the state. Most of the units in the 1980s were using M109s that were carrying a 155m (basically a 6 inch'er) cannon. My college roomate's unit was actually still using the non-turreted self-propelled but in 8 inch howitzer. Supposedly, at least for the M109s, we used to hear them say in press releases, they could poke at targets up to 20 miles away. The 8 incher howitzer range may have been a bit less, can't remember if I ever heard and I haven't looked it up.

Here's my point for tonight. We hear in the MSM (including FNC here) that the Rus are about 10 miles "from" Kiev, whatever that means, is that downtown city center or just somewhere in a metro of 3 million people, although I think their pop density is higher with more people living in apartments than single-family residency houses so perhaps Kiev's physical footprint is smaller than a 3 million metro in the USA or Canada. Anyway, have heard 9 to 10 miles away for Kiev for a while and now the Rus have dug in. But the media and the experts/sources that are feeding them this info (because most tv media don't know squat about military weapons or tactics) see that as a sign of weakness that the Rus aren't pounding Kiev constantly with artillery. There is sort of an implied notion that 10 miles out is still too far for artillery fire.

Really, 10 miles is too far for Russian self-propelled 150 mm class cannons...? Maybe it is but if we were told that the older American stuff could do possibly twice that range, something doesn't seem "right". Maybe the Ukes have been so successful using near-real time U.S. satellite imagery being supplied to them (acknowledged this week) that they can hammer the Russian individual pieces before the Rus can move them. Then again, the U.S. was employing counter-battery radar back during Desert Storm so I don't think a Russian artillery battalion or even company set up in a tactical situation wouldn't have at least 1 counter-battery radar operating so as soon as the Ukes unleashed their fire, unless they could take out the whole company (several batteries each) or the whole battalion (several companies each) at once, the Ukes would probably get some back in return. Again, maybe I'm all wrong but its another thing that "doesn't smell right".

Anyway, I'd love to hear from former artillery guys on what they think of those ranges and why the Russians really haven't lit it up with their big guns.

Worked in conjunction with arty guys on their Paladins. There's are a 155mm gun but we watched them make hits on a mountain range that was 15mi away for a few volleys and they said after it wasn't very hard for them.
The Russians being a 150 it wouldn't surprise me at all if their making hits @10mi. My question is are they making accurate on target fire or is it just saturation fire ?


Aslo it would depend on the models I guess. Seem Russia is fielding a few different self propelled guns and most seem to be 152mm .

You, this is me, firing mission over??? See which of you all can finish it.

Waiting on you Wolfie!

rounds complete?

Firing mission out?

A good infantryman should know how to call for fire. Its been nearly 30 years for me. I think I could still bring some WP down on some Ruskies! Plus it helps to have a few cold ones in you as well.

Hay I was just on my 88 in case they needed a tow. I was 91hotel attached to infantry for there recovery needs ,I did try taking class on infantry stuff like calling for fire,DMR classes , javelin classes ect but I got shut down by my platoon sgt 2/3 Times

Wolfie, I believe they didn't have javelins when I was in. Had TOW's and the old stuff. We used to cross train with the mortar men a lot. If all else fails just call for a MOAB! Next time I come down to Starkville, if you'll come up, I'll take you out and let you buy me dinner??

Scout1, were you a cav scout by chance? My kid is a cav scout now.

I was the Ammo Team Chief on a M198 Howitzer. 155mm.

It would be childs play to take out a 55 gallon oil drum at 10 miles as long as the FDC had their stuff together. When I was in, we could hit something 30 miles away with rocket assisted rounds and red bag powder charge. Now the tech is even better. Assuming the reds have the tech I had then, they could devastate a city. There is a reason we are The King of Battle.

If I don't have to work ,Sounds like a plan old timer

BTW if you ever really wanna get a mortor team mad ask em if their the tranny's of battle , you know queens trying to be kings with with their little bloop tubes .....may or may not have gotten into a few fights messing with my buddy's over that didn't help my team was usually hookin up to their broke down track with the 88 when we'd ask

NonPCFed: You are asking some good questions based on critical thinking.

To answer a question with a question: Is our media any more trustworthy today than it was a few weeks ago? Put another way, is our media still driven by an agenda?

You have already identified one of the big inconsistencies in the media's story. The implication that artillery cannot hit a city-sized target from 10 miles away is nonsense. If you doubt this, you need look no further than WW2. Russian artillery could and did destroy entire cities from 10 miles plus 70 years ago. You stated "There is sort of an implied notion that 10 miles out is still too far for artillery fire". You are correct, this is untrue.

You also stated:
"But the media and the experts/sources that are feeding them this info (because most tv media don't know squat about military weapons or tactics) see that as a sign of weakness that the Rus aren't pounding Kiev constantly with artillery."
Reading between the lines of this quote, I see two possible narratives.:
1. The media and experts think heavy bombardment of a primarily civilian area is a sign of strength.
2. Russia may be trying to limit civilian casualties.
With these two possible narratives I ask again: Is the media giving an objective narrative of current events or are they trying to persuade public opinion? Is Option #2 talked about it the news you are watching? Option #2 is a reasonable explanation as to why and is what the Russians claim they are trying to do, but might run counter to an agenda.

Propaganda is not the sole domain of the Russians. Our media does it too. Headlines "Major Ukrainian Victory 50 miles from Kiev", "Victory 30 miles from Kiev", "Victory 10 miles from Kiev" are not describing victories. They are blunting defeats.

For anyone interested, you might research into ukraine/russia/nato/eu/us relations prior to the past few weeks, especially since the end of the cold war and 2014-2022. The current situation may well have been easily avoided. Pretty much every senior US advisor on Russia, including the guys who helped facilitate the fall of the Soviet Union, warned this would happen and advised on how to avoid it.

It is almost as though our media/government want to convince the American people to engage in a major war as a means to distract us from issues here at home or something.

I spent 12 years in Marine Corps artillery. 10 miles is well within range of 155s or their Russian 152 equivalents. Believe nothing what you hear from the media and half of what you see. Precision guided artillery rounds(M712 Copperhead)are available for high value targets these days and they are effective to 10mi. RAP rounds (rocket assisted projectiles) are good out to almost 19mi. We shot several thousand rounds into Fallujah during Phantom Fury in 04/05. MACS charges supplanted the old style green bag, white bag, red bag (stick) charge system. No more cutting increments or having to dispose of leftover increments. MACS is a much cleaner burning and configurable system. Yes, my hearing sucks. Lol

Just 11B

Been wondering myself about Ivans guns. It seemed we were always told that Ivan was particularly proud of they're arty and to expect all attacks to be proceeded by rolling barrage.

I think this is about right on.

Thanks for all the input. Thanks scotts for the compliment. Although its not related to the current war, I find the same issues arise in my field of inquiry where certain narratives are pushed and get published in peer review journals and more balanced, less "sexy" analysis get "no thank you, we're not going to send this out for review". This actually happened to me recently over the course of about a year. My lead author work finally got published but it took the 5th try (3 were "no thank you, we're not going to send this out for review"-- of course those where from journal/publishing groups that hold themselves up as "premier" because they publish only a low percentage of the manuscripts sent to them). So it goes, its part of the "game" of peer review. At least I don't deal with things that can get people killed by being published...

Warrior- I told one time by an academic who said if he could choose a composite army in the WWII ETO it would have been British infantry, German armor, Russian artillery, and American logistics. Even back to Napoleon days, the Rus have liked their cannon!