Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Wanbli]
#6453661
02/07/19 12:01 PM
02/07/19 12:01 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 915 Northern Virginia
Jarhead620
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 915
Northern Virginia
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Hey Finster, Your turkeys bounced back because they had good food, pheasant chicks! When they brought turkeys here they ate our pheasant, grouse, quail and woodcock chicks and we now have none!! I would love to see a viable reference citation on this one. As a Biology and Zoology teacher I have never heard of this before and I don't for a second believe it to be true. Turkeys eat seeds, grasses and bugs. Period. If there is a trusted source for this information I would sincerely be interested in reading it if you could share it. Thanks. X2 Jarhead
"Just as the deer herd lives in mortal fear of its wolves, so does a mountain live in mortal fear of its deer." Aldo Leopold
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: bass10]
#6453674
02/07/19 12:20 PM
02/07/19 12:20 PM
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,500 PA
PAskinner
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trapper
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,500
PA
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First couple days after they are released, you can see big flocks of them sitting on the back roads. Guess they are waiting for the food truck. Dumb as rocks. Really no different than releasing chickens. I don't get the appeal myself. You have to pretty much kick them in the butt to get 'em to fly.
I raise about 100 birds every year for release, never had any problems with them flying well. If raised right with high flight pens they do well. Never had the loose ones flock up. They are not as tough as wild birds but I love watching my lab work. If its not for you then so be it but its a lot of fun with my son and dog. [/quote] I run into them all the time when trapping, usually they just run away instead of flying. But I'm not a dog.
Right now I’m having amnesia and déjà vu at the same time. I think I’ve forgotten this before.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Finster]
#6453687
02/07/19 12:38 PM
02/07/19 12:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,060 Fredonia, PA.
Finster
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,060
Fredonia, PA.
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Well, in my area it's not uncommon to have standing corn all winter. I just passed some this morning. Plenty of cover around here otherwise. Dense creek bottoms, overgrown fields that haven't been mowed in years overgrown fence rows, patches of wild raspberry bushes border every field regardless and when the corn is all mowed, there is plenty missed on the ground with about 8" stocks leftover. Seems like the perfect habitat to me. If I was a pheasant, I'd have a condo. Still..... no birds
I BELIEVE IN MY GOD, MY COUNTRY AND IN MYSELF.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Finster]
#6453700
02/07/19 12:51 PM
02/07/19 12:51 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132 SWMo.
tjm
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132
SWMo.
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Well, in my area it's not uncommon to have standing corn all winter. I just passed some this morning. Plenty of cover around here otherwise. Dense creek bottoms, overgrown fields that haven't been mowed in years overgrown fence rows, patches of wild raspberry bushes border every field regardless and when the corn is all mowed, there is plenty missed on the ground with about 8" stocks leftover. Seems like the perfect habitat to me. If I was a pheasant, I'd have a condo. Still..... no birds Are those farmers using herbicides and pesticides at all?
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: tjm]
#6453711
02/07/19 01:00 PM
02/07/19 01:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,060 Fredonia, PA.
Finster
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,060
Fredonia, PA.
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Well, in my area it's not uncommon to have standing corn all winter. I just passed some this morning. Plenty of cover around here otherwise. Dense creek bottoms, overgrown fields that haven't been mowed in years overgrown fence rows, patches of wild raspberry bushes border every field regardless and when the corn is all mowed, there is plenty missed on the ground with about 8" stocks leftover. Seems like the perfect habitat to me. If I was a pheasant, I'd have a condo. Still..... no birds Are those farmers using herbicides and pesticides at all? Sure but there are plenty of bugs left over, if that's where your going. Unless the pesticides are hurting the eggs, bugs for food are not a problem.
I BELIEVE IN MY GOD, MY COUNTRY AND IN MYSELF.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: ~ADC~]
#6453715
02/07/19 01:04 PM
02/07/19 01:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,707 S.E. Ohio
M.Magis
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,707
S.E. Ohio
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There were predators when we had high populations of pheasants here. The difference is the farming practices. In the 80's we had lots of CRP, lots of small trees in ditches, fence rows, there was even grass growing the corn and when it was picked there was still cover in the fields. Now all ditches and water ways are mowed short, most fences removed, basically zero crops spilled in the fields or missed by the combines. Stalks are chopped and bailed. When we have 6" of snow its nearly a barren landscape. The little bit of cover left make them easy pickings for any predators. Add to that all the chemicals sprayed to kill bugs and weeds that have to have an effect on their food sources as well as their own health. If you don't think farming practices have a huge impact on them you're kidding yourself. How many times does it have to be said that what you claim to be the reason for no birds is not the case in a lot of places that still have no birds? Every single thing you mention is the exact opposite here, yet no birds. As is normal, people just make things up to support what they want to believe. What ever happened to using common sense and facts to develop a theory? The facts are that the birds get decimated in the late 70s and they've simply never rebounded. Before that, there was a good balance of predator and prey. But predatory birds were on the increase since they were protected in '72. The bird population plummeted at the same time predatory birds and coyotes were on the increase. It would likely take releasing millions of birds at once to get enough out there to build the population back up, but no one has been able to do it yet.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Finster]
#6453754
02/07/19 01:42 PM
02/07/19 01:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132 SWMo.
tjm
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132
SWMo.
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Just wondering, I'm of the belief that many factors contribute. DDT was common when I was a kid and it worked but somebody figured out that it killed raptor eggs. My cousin killed all his chickens once by treating his yard for ticks. The herbicides affect weed seeds and nesting cover that might help the birds. We never had pheasants, but a huge factor with bobwhite loss here is Fescue grass grown for permanent pasture and hay, It looks like grass, but it grows as turf that leaves no place the chicks can walk and no clumps that the hen can nest in. Most people driving through the Ozarks see the forest as habitat, but when you walk through it looking for food items that will support wildlife, it is a barren wasteland for anything but deer. So, I see it as a possibility that what you see as habitat is missing some key element of mawdy man's three legs. My forest can support all kinds of wildlife several months of each year, but then the animals must move to some better food producing area for winter, that works for migratory species, not so much for things like pheasants and quail. If I understand correctly, you say there is some waste corn on the ground but the stubble is only 8" tall? That isn't much cover from overhead and might not be a choice place to hide.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Finster]
#6453759
02/07/19 01:47 PM
02/07/19 01:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,036 New York
Fire Fly Guy
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,036
New York
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I was fortunate enough to go to South Dakota to hunt Pheasants on a 50,000 acre farm. This family has been in the business for over 50 years. They release thousands of birds a year, maybe 10% make it to 2 year old. I asked him why? He said Farming......... poising the bugs.
Makes sense, he should know.
.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: M.Magis]
#6453761
02/07/19 01:48 PM
02/07/19 01:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132 SWMo.
tjm
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 9,132
SWMo.
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The facts are that the birds get decimated in the late 70s and they've simply never rebounded. Before that, there was a good balance of predator and prey. But predatory birds were on the increase since they were protected in '72. The bird population plummeted at the same time predatory birds and coyotes were on the increase. It would likely take releasing millions of birds at once to get enough out there to build the population back up, but no one has been able to do it yet. You ain't just making that up to support what you want to believe? So, studies that show a link between rising raptor populations and decline of invasive species? I suspect the DDT ban was more important to raptors than the treaty act.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Finster]
#6453762
02/07/19 01:52 PM
02/07/19 01:52 PM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 28,978 potter co. p.a.
pcr2
"Twerker"
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"Twerker"
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 28,978
potter co. p.a.
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great post,reminded me to take out the 3 i kept for later out.them things is mmm-mmmm good.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Finster]
#6453785
02/07/19 02:05 PM
02/07/19 02:05 PM
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Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7,244 West Michigan
Getting There
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7,244
West Michigan
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Question, has there been a decline all across the Pheasant home range? I think some State release K of pheasant a year to bring in hunter to help the economy. I talked to a hunter that went to Iowa for many years and he said the population has drop 25% in the last ten years. He no longer goes out west. Real good thread!
To Old U.S. Army 60-63 SGT.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: mawdy man]
#6453788
02/07/19 02:06 PM
02/07/19 02:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,468 MT
snowy
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 10,468
MT
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[quote=mawdy man]ime gonna weight in hear....thou I have never set foot on American soil I would like to think I know pheasants and pheasant rearing and management
before I made my living trapping moles and foxes I spent all my early working life with pheasants, native partridges and deer.. in number that beggar belief. we would rear 100,000 pheasants a year and 10,000 red partridge and a couple thousand greys, with 8 thousand ducks for good measure.
putting to wood 20,000 pheasants and all the ducks and partridge, getting %50 plus on pheasants and upto 90 on ducks and all the as well as this ive done a lot of very old school rearing and re-establishing of wild birds using the broody hen and old ways.
the basics of all game birds is the 3 legged stool...you need each leg to make it work if not it will fail
habitat.......if you don't have the habitat they wont be their
food....if you don't have the food for them at all times of the year they wont stay their
vermin....call them what you will but if you got vermin you aint gonna have birds! vermin must not be tolerated in any guise.
I will forever kick myself of not taking the job on a English style shoot in the rockies.but i would wager a bet that me and 2 other keepers (gamekeepers,i have a couplelads in mind) would turn,given a few years and enough ££ would turn pretty much any favourable bit of ground in to some of the best pheasant shooting in the country.
I agree with the 3 legged stool theory. If you have those 3 and released them in that area I can't imagine why they wouldn't take off and thrive. IMO
Last edited by snowy; 02/07/19 02:07 PM.
Give me a fish, I will eat for a day. Teach me to fish, I will eat for a lifetime
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Finster]
#6453795
02/07/19 02:12 PM
02/07/19 02:12 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,995 Central, SD
Law Dog
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 34,995
Central, SD
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20 years ago a guy could walk a field and kick up a wave of birds here and then another wave would get up and on and on. Several factors are needed to support the large numbers of birds take away 1 or 2 of them and it has a negative outcome. Even when we have people getting paid to leave the CRP alone then some emergency comes about and they are allowed to cut it so the program becomes useless if this happens a few years in a row.
Was born in a Big City Will die in the Country OK with that!
Jerry Herbst
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: tjm]
#6453806
02/07/19 02:24 PM
02/07/19 02:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,236 Kansas
Pawnee
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,236
Kansas
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The facts are that the birds get decimated in the late 70s and they've simply never rebounded. Before that, there was a good balance of predator and prey. But predatory birds were on the increase since they were protected in '72. The bird population plummeted at the same time predatory birds and coyotes were on the increase. It would likely take releasing millions of birds at once to get enough out there to build the population back up, but no one has been able to do it yet. You ain't just making that up to support what you want to believe? So, studies that show a link between rising raptor populations and decline of invasive species? I suspect the DDT ban was more important to raptors than the treaty act. tjm, If you have time research the DDT study that got it banned. It’s my understanding that one Lib professor wrote a paper and politicians ran with it. Same thing with lead shot and migratory birds. From what I’ve learned the only thing that banning DDT did was kill millions world wide from malaria.
Everything the left touches it destroys
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Law Dog]
#6453811
02/07/19 02:28 PM
02/07/19 02:28 PM
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Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,236 Kansas
Pawnee
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2017
Posts: 6,236
Kansas
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20 years ago a guy could walk a field and kick up a wave of birds here and then another wave would get up and on and on. Several factors are needed to support the large numbers of birds take away 1 or 2 of them and it has a negative outcome. Even when we have people getting paid to leave the CRP alone then some emergency comes about and they are allowed to cut it so the program becomes useless if this happens a few years in a row. Maybe different in SD, but here it can only be hayed after nesting season. I’ll double check if that applies in emergency years. I do know that you loose your CRP payment if you hay; emergency or not
Everything the left touches it destroys
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: Pawnee]
#6453813
02/07/19 02:30 PM
02/07/19 02:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,060 Fredonia, PA.
Finster
OP
trapper
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OP
trapper
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 17,060
Fredonia, PA.
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tjm, If you have time research the DDT study that got it banned. It’s my understanding that one Lib professor wrote a paper and politicians ran with it. Same thing with lead shot and migratory birds. From what I’ve learned the only thing that banning DDT did was kill millions world wide from malaria.
I may be wrong (always a chance for a first ![grin grin](/forum/images/graemlins/default/grin.gif) ) But I believe many of the third world countries never banned DDT. In fact, I believe it is still in use today.
I BELIEVE IN MY GOD, MY COUNTRY AND IN MYSELF.
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Re: PA Pheasant issues
[Re: M.Magis]
#6453874
02/07/19 03:17 PM
02/07/19 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,432 Iowa
~ADC~
The Count
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The Count
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 16,432
Iowa
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There were predators when we had high populations of pheasants here. The difference is the farming practices. In the 80's we had lots of CRP, lots of small trees in ditches, fence rows, there was even grass growing the corn and when it was picked there was still cover in the fields. Now all ditches and water ways are mowed short, most fences removed, basically zero crops spilled in the fields or missed by the combines. Stalks are chopped and bailed. When we have 6" of snow its nearly a barren landscape. The little bit of cover left make them easy pickings for any predators. Add to that all the chemicals sprayed to kill bugs and weeds that have to have an effect on their food sources as well as their own health. If you don't think farming practices have a huge impact on them you're kidding yourself. How many times does it have to be said that what you claim to be the reason for no birds is not the case in a lot of places that still have no birds? Every single thing you mention is the exact opposite here, yet no birds. As is normal, people just make things up to support what they want to believe. What ever happened to using common sense and facts to develop a theory? The facts are that the birds get decimated in the late 70s and they've simply never rebounded. Before that, there was a good balance of predator and prey. But predatory birds were on the increase since they were protected in '72. The bird population plummeted at the same time predatory birds and coyotes were on the increase. It would likely take releasing millions of birds at once to get enough out there to build the population back up, but no one has been able to do it yet. I lived through all this. You may be a farmer taking it personally or whatever but the facts are just as I mentioned. There will NEVER be the numbers of birds here that we had in the past unless the farming practices are greatly changed. Its their land to do with whatever they want. I hate to see it but if it were my livelihood I may do it just the same. How do pheasants live here? ![[Linked Image]](https://trapperman.com/forum/attachments/usergals/2019/02/full-16258-437367-screenshot_2019_02_07_at_1.10.55_pm.png) The only places around here with any decent pheasant population these days are the private grounds owned by rich guys who groom it for pheasants and release birds to boost populations. In 1988 I could drive 5 miles and see 25-30 birds or more easily almost any day of the year. This area was a prime destination for out of state pheasant hunters, now if you shoot 3 in a day you had to work your butt off to do it. There are some factors like birds of prey and other predators that effect them but NOTHING compares to the effect of the farming practices around here!
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