????? has anyone ever asked you how many NWCOA CEUs you have before accepting your proposal?

Sounds like someone has been doing a bunch of research.

First of all, I am now a NWCOA member and this is not criticism, just a fact. I have never heard anyone that was not connected to the

ADC business ever use the word or initials NWCOA.

My answer would be I don't know.

NWCOA used to publish a list of CEU credits for training conducted before 2012 but there is no current public listing that I am aware of. Then I'd explain that I'd received more than 150 CEU hours before the certification program had been changed in 2011 limiting the type of training that would qualify for credits. I'd further explain that NWCOA gives credit to training (articles, DVD's, on-line media, classroom, etc.) based on whether or not their certification committee determines that it is relevant to a wildlife control business, that the instructor meets their criteria, and that I can proved proof of reading/viewing or attending the class. This means that even though I found an article/book/DVD/TV show/training/etc. very beneficial, I may not receive any credit for it unless it has already been approved and quantified by NWCOA. In order to see if that particular training will be credited, I'd have to submit the training outline, instructor bio, and proof of attendance (or with books/publications/DVD/TV submit a special form that I filled out) along with a fee to have it reviewed. For any training I attend where I am unable to provide the required information, such as a trapping demonstration at a convention, I do not receive any CEU credits.

Then I'd finish with, why do you ask?

I can't say that we have ever been asked. However, I think college degrees make the point mute. The question from the custmer probably has more to do with educational qualifications....rather than just field experience. There is a lot of skill gained from the field....but from a customers perspective....if you can hire someone with both...why not?

Soon to be a CWCP too! Whoot!!

I think it would be a pro active selling point

"When shopping around for a bat expert, make sure the ha e certifiable credentials, like the nwcoa bat operator certificate"

Throwback,

Why do you feel that a certificate shows that the person is certifiable? Before this gets out of hand, I'm not picking on any particular training program, nor trying to promote my own, I'm just curious why you think this way.

For instance, does this mean that because someone has a hunting license, trapping license, pest control license, or heck even a driver license that it automatically makes them qualified or is it more along the lines of setting minimum standards? If it is minimum standards, then where do they start. Does it start with state requirements (business license than activity license/permits) or does it require the state to have an actual licensing program? If the state has a licensing program does that automatically make it the minimum or is something else required to do so and if so, who decides what that is? Will lecture only/Internet training suffice or does it need to be hands-on or a combination of both? Does a test need to be involved to show they understand the material or does there need to be an "apprenticeship" under a qualified individual/company, neither or something else?

I think that your viewpoint will be good as you've recently starting working for a bat company that does their own qualification/training from what you've previously posted.

I think I've got this covered. My wife says I've been certifiable for as long as she's known me!

Paul:
her opinion and .65 can get you a cup of coffee almost
anywhere!!!

Jerry Pickel

Hey Jerry, it's great to hear from you. It's been a while. But let's just keep that last thought to ourselves. I'm just getting over

the "dead animal in the garbage for a week" fiasco.

I have been doing this work for a long time along with my other professions. The only question we get asked more frequently then ever is if we are insured or not. And if so, they would like to see a copy of our certificate of insurance.

State licensing is required in many states or testing has been implemented to meet some type of accepted standards of credibility for our type of work. Any good trade field benefits by having a representing association in place. I think most will agree with that as long as things are competently forged and governed by qualified individuals with reasonable standards in place for their industry.

I would presume from my experience that most consumers feel you are qualified or you wouldn't be advertising or have logo's on your vehicle, dress code representing your trade and obviously your professional presence and knowledge determined along the way.

If resolution of the problem is professionally executed its all good for the average consumer.

However in some cases, looks and appearances can be deceiving as can ones abilities. A fact many of us have witnessed or experienced personally.

I am not considered a certified professional according to NWCOA standards. However, I have been doing multi specie ADC/nuisance wildlife work since the mid 1970's. Does that mean that I don't measure up or meet their standards? Not at all. However training and meeting some sort of standards is important to help prepare and educate our industry personnel.

For some it may seem advantageous in using your training background as part of your job selling program. I have never had to do that for our own business game plan. However if you feel it works for you then by all means utilize your shingle for credibility support.

I guess Paul and I would both be considered certifiable by many,.

Bob, I think you are right in your points. I also believe that the way the economy has shifted over the last 10 years, more degreed people are entering the field. Part of the draw is the lack of demand for degrees in all the other fields. How many students are stuck with tens of thousands in student loans....and $10/hour jobs? That being the case, potential customers are observing this when comparing service companies.

The nuisance wildlife field is becoming the new go to industry. It was once, not too long ago, a desired trendy profession to become a teacher. Then there was all the start up roofers and landscape business' that didn't require a degree to start up a professional trade.

Now there are doggy doo doo business' trending out there and pet sitters etc.. I wonder what will be next.

Well...this business is just complicated enough to make it tough to get going.

It is certainly a multi faceted unique required skill set as a matter of fact. Requiring a lot of time served to achieve all the levels of training and confidence needed to get the machine up and running well.

I have been told that my certifications made a customer choose me over competitors.
Certifications issued by nationally-recognized industry organizations (and every mature profession has one) simply prove to the customer that somebody knows his stuff, and often agrees to certain standards of integrity. Obviously, Bob, Eric and Wink know their stuff - some of the sharpest guys in the industry - but Joe Sixpack don't know that. He will, however, give credence to a "nationally certified" label.

To clarify, I don't think that the certs mean anything to be honest. Nothing is stopping me from opening cal bat school And handing out diplomas for cash. I just was pointing out that a company could be proactively promoting there credentials, meaningless or not. Heck, I tell people that I am a member of nwcoa, all that means is I wrote a check.

And yes, I am sub contracting for get bats out, and they trained in house and there were a few other things I had to Do, nothing strenuous either. On a side note, the deal there is going very well and I am still happy with them.

I see this a big reason for some to get certified. Paul, Bob, Eric and other older operators can show up and get a lot of respect, and people assume they know whats going on. For instance, those guys can claim the have been trapping for 20 years (Wink can claim to have trapped with Daniel Boone). I can barely claim to be alive for that long, so I really do have to explain myself sometimes. SOme certificates might help back that up.

references/referrals........

I personally believe in taking training and I like the idea of certifications that mean something.

However, and this is a big easy point here. If you are a good sales person and can sell yourself
and your services, the rest often won't be the deciding point. We all know people buy services
from hacks and those who have no honesty and integrity and won't come back when the services
fail, how did they get the job over the next guy?

You could say it was because they were the lowest bidder likely, but that isn't always true. In fact
I've have a number of these fine folks get jobs just because they were the first person the client called
simple as that. They were personable and earned the trust and got the job...

What I personally like about training is that I can acquire a new skill set or begin to learn a new field.

Just prior to starting this company I took bird barriers training (I had never installed or sold bird exclusion
or anything related before), I took Eric's Bat Management course (I had never excluded or worked with bats
in that capacity before) and I went to WCT and again learned about many things and services I didn't ever
work with before.

All of these were worth paying for for me personally. Maybe not for the next guy, maybe so. While we can
all learn by trial and error it costs a great deal of money to do so, it uses time better spent making more money
or with family and relaxing.

What I like about training is shortening the learning curve and I have to say that I never expect to be an expert
or have someone hire me specifically because I took a single training course be it one hour, one day or a week.

An avenue in life I've been working on sideline to what I do with wildlife and our primary company found me in
the presence of a craftsman who works with an art and skill that many look up to this guy for. He is a humble guy
and when I took his short course on this subject matter which was hands on and some limited classroom as well there
are many things I took away that I could practice and make money and earn a living on.

The thing though I will say here and many have heard it before in one form or another is that they say it takes 10,000
hours to gain mastery over a trade or practice.

Now while many things might not take that long, the point is this, I don't go to trainings and expect to come out and tell folks
"yup I'm an expert now, that class says I am."

I do like the idea I have a basic competence in the subject matter or the tools of that trade, however telling most folks honestly say
a bird exclusion client where I'm bidding to do a commercial netting job that is fairly complicated, that I took a one day course
from the supplier and they gave me a little piece of paper that says I'm a certified installer doesn't make me think the folks are going
to instantly think that is worth them picking me over a guy who comes in, sells himself and his products, can talk the talk and walk the
walk and impresses them and lands the job.

Yes we can all agree if nationally every homeowner knew an association like they know what popcorn and gasoline are, it is likely a stamp
or training from them would carry weight with the homeowner. We however have a fragmented industry and many opinions, many angles
and ultimately my clients do not know what my associations are that I belong to, none of them.

They don't know the wildlife society, they don't know NWCOA, they don't know the wildlife disease society, most haven't heard of BCI, nor
any other professional group I pay money to or have participated in training with.

I may refer to these various groups if germane to the discussion, but ultimately I am selling myself, my honesty, my integrity, my warranty of
goods and services sold and my personality as well. If they like all of that, I don't need to talk about anyone else or anything else in terms of
stamps, certifications, etc...

To summarize, I again like training, like the idea of certs and basic competency. The devil is in the details though, we all know anyone can be
fully trained, agree to follow standards, or what they learned and walk right out the door and do otherwise, it is the nature of any trade or any
profession, so in the end if your client is savvy to life in general and isn't a youngster, they know what matters is more often than not your word
and your commitment that they can see, read or hear in your communication.

Remember, basic competence earned in a classroom ultimately never replaces what you will see and do in the field itself, this was the same when
I was in college for wildlife management, when I worked for the feds as a wildlife biologist and researcher and in this career now running my company.

I pay to learn every day and I'll quote Eric on this one, "I haven't lost money, but I've paid a lot for my education."

I love this field because it is open, I do wish we had a larger group all under one umbrella working together for a common goal that works for all
but much as I hear everyday on talk radio, in the paper and on the tv, getting any large group of people to agree on any subject is a really big ask, everyone
has their own agenda and though you can get some to agree, getting enough to agree and join and make it matter to enough of our regulatory authorities who
issue permits, licenses and govern the wildlife we work with is a whole other issue altogether.

Thats my $1.25 on this subject, I will always be looking for quality training opportunities to add new skills and open my mind to new avenues for my business, I won't ever expect to leave any of them being so fully versed in the subject that no further learning need occur. This winter I plan to take at least 3 different courses that tie in to my business model each is at least $1,500.00 and come with certain certs and so forth, and they are from groups that are recognized nationally and even internationally, I will still come out and know I need to practice the skills and what I learned to head toward someday mastering them.

Okay, maybe $1.50......

Justin

Justin you always have some,of the most informative post

Get'em boys! Now I'm learning something.

No and I doubt that any customer I've had has ever heard of NWCOA.



Education and training is usually beneficial and seldom detrimental. Whether you get what you pay for, or not, is up to the individual to decide.

"I like the idea of certifications that mean something."

All certifications mean something. Just what that something is, is the question.

I think the value of any certification or degree lies with the person receiving it. It means little to most customers. It means a little more to employers but even then it's value is questionable.

Performance is the thing of value to the customer.

I know someone with a degree in wildlife biology who I wouldn't count on to catch a squirrel under a bird feeder. In this case a person with experience is far more valuable than a "certified" one.

All in all, I'd say do what's important to you because it probably wont mean much to a customer.

Some good thoughts there SGS, I agree it matters wholeheartedly who is taking the course or training, if they take the info and utilize it, and ultimately that it matters most to the individual.

The client is always in the realm of having to evaluate you on what they see or hear while interacting with you.

Referrals and references can be helpful and sometimes worth their weight in gold.

I'd also agree there are folks with more letters behind their name then I have socks in my dresser, doesn't mean they have practicable skills in this field, it truly is how someone learns and what they apply to the scenarios we all face.

I guess I would add though that I've seen many trainings and yes some with certs through the years that didn't deserve the time out into creating them and certainly weren't worth organizing an event and stamping someone for after participation.

I'm sure many have also seen classes and certs and CEU trainings where folks were aided in the final test and even classes where moderators gave answers so the group all passed. This would make me disagree that all certs are worthwhile or have value.

Very well said gentlemen.

There is certainly a lot of talent and grounded individuals within our ranks. Our industry will only grow and the quality of our operators is in the hands of the experienced and hopefully will continue to keep our current and up/coming future professionals better able to make the grade competently.

My days and body are slowing down considerably and it is encouraging to know things are in good hands with the caliber of folks in our field presently.

To return to Vinke's original question, this thread really isn't about the merit of training, rather the merit of particular training in marketing and gaining new clients for your business.

Steve - I agree some biology graduates can't can't catch a squirrel. Of course, that skill is not part of the program. But, they do have a proven capacity to learn.

I know a biologist that is running a business and kicking butt.

What Steve (sqs) said about individuals and what they get out of their training is so true. I am one of the oldest guys on this forum

and I continue to learn new things about our business from you guys on a regular basis. Why? Because I love the fact that even though

I'm in my seventies I can still be useful to my family and our business. When you love what you're doing it's not work. I still go

out and catch wildlife every day and here's a little secret: IN THIS BUSINESS THE LEARNING NEVER STOPS!

A lot of education and certificates involve memorization, not thought process

Exactly what I was getting at. And if you have credentials, you shod use them in your marketing,

Even though running a business wasn't part of the program?

Thank you Dave. Whether it's being able to catch a squirrel or run a successful business, a biology degree or other cert. really isn't necessary, as you mentioned. It certainly doesn't hurt, but it's not necessary and will mean little to most customers. Performance and local references usually trump titles.

When it comes to influencing a potential customer, I can think of nothing more valuable than good, local references.

Learning requires memorization. Nothing wrong retaining information. Comprehension is another matter. I bet that if you don't understand what you are memorizing, you won't be successful anyway.

Much of the memorization is learning the language or terms in a field or science. For example, some people might not know that sparrows are diurnal. Folks that memorize this can sound professional....but the people that can explain this to people outside the field in common language, actually have the understanding of the topic. You should be able to effectively communicate to pros and non-pros alike.

A certification (or a degree) won't build your business. Building a business requires ambition and risk. However, certification's are simply another layer of accomplishments that, frankly, set you apart from the crowd. Generally speaking, the proof is in your sales.

Steve - Although is has been many years ago...I didn't learn squat about running a business in college. Heck, much of the topics were useless in my career(s). However, I learned how to learn. I also learned setting a goal and achieving it.

Much of what I learned about business was through experience working at many different companies...and meeting many people. Also, I read a lot about topics of interest and have a passion. I'm probably a tad OCD too. I'd guess many business owners are too. If your reading this thread on trapperman on a Sunday...well...

There is no certificate for the wall from reading these sort of posts. But a pile of education from people who have been there, done that, that is invaluable to be successful. Tks

Dave, the little I know you is from this forum but I think your passion is business, more so than wildlife. I suspect you'd be successful in any business you chose.

And all without a degree in business.

Steve - Thanks!

Well....I already have venison in the freezer....if that counts for anything. Not bad considering, I have three kids under 8.

Sometimes all the certs, training and knowledge in the world don't stand a chance against a slick salesman.
A large, wealthy school district here took bids on a big bat job. Very complicated, very high work. Some of the best in the biz bid on this job. One of the companies bidding is known as kind of a joke in the WC business here (they are PCO's). Every WCO in St. Louis has cleaned up after their overpriced but shoddy work.

Because they have perfected the technique of separating the customer from large amounts of his money, they got the job. They are known for having very impressive brochures, forms, contracts, etc. What the customers don't know (at first, anyway...) is how laughably incompetent they are.
Reminds me of a saying we had in college: If you can't impress them with facts, baffle 'em with BS!

That's easy to win when you actually have the skills....just need a better salesman.

Justin
I should have put"any piece of paper" in the title..........

the only one I see using paper in this industry is loone acre..............n

I don't see how someone can get a degree and not learn anything productive unless you're not paying attention

I have take three classes on business and I have taken away a few key things from all of them. Not a lot, but they do add and take some of the curve off.

Easy. The average person would get more useful knowledge from a business class than calculus 2. On the other end of the spectrum, a linguistics class is useless.

Dave, you are right on. We had grandparent's day at the high school last week. My grandson's Advanced algebra and second year Spanish

classes were wasted on me. 55 years later and my favorite classes are still the same....study hall and lunch!

In 36 years of doing this stuff I have never been asked by a customer if I am certified by NWCOA or ANYONE. Insurance and business lic yes. What university did I attend may be asked also. even my state Fish and Wildlife folks have never asked me if I am certified. I think that the only folks that really think about certification or care for the most part is those that are in the field. Certification is good, I guess, even though I am not paper certified in wildlife control by anyone, I am a state certified snaring and trapping instructor. certified in bird Barriers, certified Chemical immobilization for animal control and certified rodent something or other LOL. Again when I say this most of you could care less that I am certified with the aforementioned. Why? because it means nothing to most, that's nice but so what. Does it mean I am good with snares and know what to do with them or does it mean I have passed a test and have a head knowledge about the subject matter?

I give a lot of lectures and attend a lot of them also. I give instructions and training and have taken many also. try to take at least one training of some sort each year, so you can see I am always looking to learn. But if that head know how that comes from certification does not shift from head to doing what that person knows, then it is just a waste of time and effort. looks good but a waste. I will give you an example. Two weekends ago and again this coming weekend I will be giving the state trapper training course, it is a 2 full day course where there is a test at the end. Many will pass with a 90 to 100% yet many of those when it comes time to put that learned knowledge into practice they will come up very short. Many will in months to come call me with problems that they know what to do test wise yet putting it into practice gets lost. Bob J knows what I am saying here I am sure. The same is true with ADC folks and certification. The know how many times never gets to the doing part. So in fact the Certification is nothing more than a marketing plus. Again I may be sounding like I am against certification!! I am not. Just in real life it does not make a person better than a non certified person. Most of the old dogs in this business could care less about certification even if they are certified. As many have stated in the previous posts, it is not the paper it is knowledge going from the head to the hands that seals the deal.

Anyone can attend a class and listen ( or at least pretend to ) to the instructor. When you are the instructor things change. You

have to master the subject well enough to answer any and all questions. Several of us on T-man have been instructors or given

presentations at seminars. I once did a joint presentation with my son at a seminar and he blew me out of the water. That's what

happens when you graduate college with a teaching degree. ( And keep in mind, my favorite subjects were study hall and lunch )

I have read some crazy threads on TMAN.....and listened to some not so well thought out presentations. Just saying...there can be more education.

T man is one of the best resources out there.

I could call a lot of you a get the problem solved if need be.

Lucky for me I had almost 20 years in contracting before I started doing this.

You can never make a stupid person capable.. And you are never going to stop a "shady" person from performing extortion?

Book education,,,,,,,sure I wish I had more for "other" ventures, but for this gig,,,,,,give me someone who can sell without being a rip off
construction experience (roofing is great)
Non drinker
No family

Wow! I think Vinke has read my life history. I can sell a job and usually the only one who gets ripped off is me.

I used to roof.

And my wife told me if I didn't quit drinking I would no longer have a family.

I'm like Vinke's nightmare come true.