Re: Can a bat chew
[Re: moleman]
#4625709
08/30/14 09:18 AM
08/30/14 09:18 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 32 OH
Eric Arnold
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No they cannot.
If you look at a bat skull and the tooth structure, you can see that they lack the ability to make their own openings unlike a rodent.
Eric Arnold Publishing Editor W.C.T. Magazine Editor The Fur Taker Magazine
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Re: Can a bat chew
[Re: moleman]
#4627195
08/31/14 02:18 PM
08/31/14 02:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 32 OH
Eric Arnold
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OH
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You can look at the book Bats of America by Roger Barbour & Wayne Davis
Eric Arnold Publishing Editor W.C.T. Magazine Editor The Fur Taker Magazine
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Re: Can a bat chew
[Re: moleman]
#4627256
08/31/14 03:24 PM
08/31/14 03:24 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111 NM
HD_Wildlife
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Wanted to take a stab at this for you moleman,
Eric and David are both people I consider friends with solid bat experience under the belt that I trust.
I think we have to look at some definitions to clarify your question. Questions in our industry often lend themselves to plenty of opinions and some of this is certainly due to the way questions might be posed.
So....
Chew - my definition in wildlife of chewing would be during consumption of food sources, in this case with bats, insects (leaving out the nectar drinkers in my part of the world).
When clients ask me about bats in their home and the type of damage they often are thinking of bats as they would mice.
When they think of mice or when I think of mice, rats or other rodents I'm thinking the major gnawing power they have to go through solid wood and other construction materials even on up to with rats getting through concrete.
So back to your question, can a bat "chew." With my definition they of course can and all would agree, but I believe you are wondering mostly about exclusion materials and maybe about home damage, in this case I would be thinking gnaw would be the word I'm consumed with.
This might seem like semantics but do believe words are only as good as the meaning we put with them.
Do bats gnaw through wood and other construction materials to create roost sites? This is widely documented to be no. They are considered secondary cavity nesters meaning the cavity or roost site must already exist for the bats, one reason why existing habitat is so critical to bats and their conservation. Other wildlife who are wood boring or gnawing (woodpecker, flicker, squirrel, etc...) all create cavities that once abandoned can provide great nest sites for bats and other wildlife who don't have the physical traits to create their own.
I know that David has witnessed foam that definitely looked like bats chewed it and I don't doubt he saw this for a second, even though I don't believe that I would call this gnawing versus being a situation that might arise from a high affinity to a roost site, being excluded and crawling around on the foam trying to gain entry. Thumb nails on bats as well as the nails on their feet are plenty pointy and those fine tips to me could abrade very easily the light characteristic of newly cured foam.
If you think about how wood looks when bats have crawled over it for years or decades as many of you have seen in churches, homes, etc... and I've seen in those and in wooden timber bridges, the wood gets seriously abraded and on foam I believe this would certainly look and behave like the foam was "gnawed" or "chewed."
***
So now we go to behavior and biology.
Why would a bat chew/gnaw their way through foam or other lightweight materials of a soft nature? One reason could be maternity colony where adult bats were locked out and pups were inside with foam between. Maternal instinct is strong in most species as the life investment and biological toll of raising offspring is massive. I've seen enough jobs where folks foamed in bats at this point even just 3 years into our company that I can state I've seen foam scratched, roughed up, gouged and picked apart, how it was done, tooth, nails?
I also believe with a major affinity to an old roost site bats might try to get in to the point of tearing out some foam again, through which mechanical method I don't know.
***
Finally, look at the teeth and this is where we would biologically and morphologically be inclined to agree that bats were not designed to be gnawing, (chewing) species.
Their teeth are meant to fulfill their role as predators of insects and to be able to use canine teeth to capture the insect and the rear teeth to macerate those insects for digestion.
All wildlife have teeth that show us a bit about their life history. If someone told me a bobcat was gnawing its way through the wood framing of their log cabin, I'd have a hard time believing it, even if a bobcat could technically gnaw if properly motivated, but what is the motivation?
In the end wildlife unlike humans expend calories driven by biological needs and principles. Unless you are living in a third world country most humans do not abide by these rules. We can acquire food from the store, shelter with money and so on.
Bats and other wildlife must use the calories the expend in the wisest way possible and trying to gnaw through building materials with their predator adapted tooth structure is a caloric expense without a productive outcome.
***
This is my .25 on the subject, but I guess I'd say that though I know many who hung up their foam, most hung it up due to the other creatures that will take that foam down in a few moments (squirrels, rats, birds, etc...).
Hope that helps some toward your answer, again I do believe what David saw and I do believe what Eric says as well. Any creature is capable of things we don't see them regularly do, but those anomalies are not the rule they are generally the exception, ultimately you have to base your exclusion on what you are comfortable with and if squirrels and others are around, it is prudent to not rely on the foam and other lightweight materials anyway...
Best,
Justin
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Re: Can a bat chew
[Re: moleman]
#4630483
09/02/14 09:03 PM
09/02/14 09:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,595 SW Pa
Bob Jameson
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SW Pa
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They definitely can chew thru fur foam and great stuff foam over a period of time. I have seen it and watched them do it with binoculars from the ground many years ago. There is no question from my experience they chew very well thru those types of materials. Their roosting sites/maternal sites are high interest areas and preferred sites that are habitual places for them to get to sometimes at all costs. If you havent used integrity materials to repair the primary entries and all secondary points of entry I assure you they will get back in. Do an exclusion this summer on a structure and have the customer replace their roof with new shingles in the next year or so.In doing this the roofer in many cases tears your primary dormer seal points or ridge vent gap repairs out. Guess what, you will have that colony back at home in short order. Just like having your kids grow up and move out as they grow older. They always know where home is located and come back for one reason or another. ![smile smile](/forum/images/graemlins/default/smile.gif)
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Re: Can a bat chew
[Re: moleman]
#4632560
09/04/14 12:48 AM
09/04/14 12:48 AM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 193 Tipton, IN
Travis Wolford
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I didn't want to have to deal with it so I threw the foam guns away and made my guys and myself use other products. Besides Solar Seal and Cobra Vent look much better.
it is not a stupid question if you do not know the answer
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Re: Can a bat chew
[Re: moleman]
#4633567
09/04/14 06:56 PM
09/04/14 06:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111 NM
HD_Wildlife
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Out of those who have "seen" bats "chew" foam, how many have witnessed this as Bob says with binoculars and how many evaluate the following year or when a call back or warranty inspection happens and see simply the foam is gnawed, chewed or gone and the bats were back and so they were the cleanest decision tree end for "who dunnit" so to speak?
I'm seriously curious, I do use foam along with the other products available to us to assure exclusion, I've had pack rats (wood rats) lay waste to it in my first year on a couple of ranches where I was ignorant to them going to the locations I thought were safe, however the rest of my exclusions haven't witnessed this damage to foam.
Here in the desert I have about 4-6 species that we routinely exclude including the typical species for other parts of the country like big brown, Mexican free-tailed bat and little brown along with some other myotis and Pallids.
I'm sure you guys have seen where someone (homeowner or otherwise) foamed in bats that were trapped live in the wall, I've witnessed this more than I care to say out here and in none of these cases were the bats making any headway on trying to leave through the foam which was a life and death scenario.
***
For the record I am truly interested in this topic, we all know that any building material can be compromised by the right animal in the right scenario, what I'm interested in are the following questions related to this topic.
1) If you stopped using foam because of bat damage to this product and re-entry into structures that you excluded did you....
a.) see the bats do the chewing/gnawing?
b.) see the evidence and since the location was an entry point assumed bats as culprits?
c.) see evidence and bats were back and thus again connection was made?
2) Which species of bat did you see do this, or have you seen multiple species do this and if so which species if identification was possible?
3) What time of year was this, summer time when maternity season was imminent, or various times of year from spring to fall?
For now thats likely enough questions to muddle this a bit, but hopefully you see I'm interested truly in knowing some of these variables and surely no excluder that works with bats wouldn't want to have the advantage of some of these bits of wisdom or sightings folks might have.
*****
Oh, one last thing, everyone is talking foam right? Not that bats are chewing into a home through wood and other structural components that would require rodent teeth or raccoon tenacity?
Just wanting to clarify as the topic of the thread is simply "can a bat chew" not can a bat chew foam?
Thanks, oh and Bob, I definitely agree every material has its place and learning that is one of the most important things we do with wildlife exclusion, wasn't poking fun at anyone with the "stock prices drop on pur foam" was an overall statement related to everyone piping up saying foam for bats is fallible in general, expect a lot of guys to stop ordering it or doing entire exclusions with it alone as we all know so many who do.
Best,
Justin
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