Whats the coldest you have ever saw a bat out and about?I just got home from my third shift job,getting ready for my day shift ADC work and when I pull into the yard to park[I live in a rural area] I notice our family kitten staring up a pinetree in the yard.The first thing I'm thinking is she is looking at a flying squirrel=wrong.I walk up to the tree and shine my flashlight to see what she is looking at and to my surprise it's a little brown bat.I didn't think bats got out much when its cold.Its 16 now with frost on the ground,it only got into a high of 38 yesterday.He appears to be healthy I was just surprised to see one out in this type of weather.I tried to take a pic to post but it came out too blurry.I was just wondering have any of you ever saw a bat out during pretty cold temps?

High 30's to low 40's.

Without seeing the bat first hand, I'd guess that this was a tree dwelling bat species and that it just happened to get "caught" out in this weather front. In terms of movement, anytime you have temps above 35 degrees you can have movement which is usually done by male bats moving to another hibernacula or if warm enough searching for food.

Would agree with Eric that though it could be a variety of bats, may just be a tree roosting species that was caught out on a particularly cold night.

There are many folks I correspond with in GA in and outside the NWCO community and many have active bat houses all winter long just with diminished
numbers and roost switching visible by weekly counts in the boxes.

So many variables in bats and bat species and their ability to biologically cope with temps outside the range we think of as normal or documented in the literature as normal.

Interesting sighting!

Justin

mid 40's leaving homes fly around and I guess go back in when the temps start to drop. most of the time in my area there is only 1 or 2 that winter over in our homes. but again we have average day time temps in the 40's more than the lower temps most years. this year is different, teens and very low 20's day time. 1.5 hour drive north of me the same state 10 to 15 degree lower daytime temp difference. they never seem to leave the house. I think we have to start teaching these animals to read better so they can read what we write and they can fall into line. I wonder why bats in the winter only have one den yet in the summer they must have other dens as I have yet to see 200 bats hanging on the outside of the house I just excluded in August. and I wonder why in late august the numbers at houses when you can set a clock to them in times and numbers, start to really bounce around Never mind.

So here's one for you bat experts like Jonesie, Justin, Eric Arnold, and just about everyone else. When this WNS thing came along and I read how devastating it was, my first thought was less bat calls, bat work, bat posts, etc.

It now seems to me that just the opposite is true. I have been reading more posts, stories, and literature about bats than ever before. Is this because the public has been made more aware of our little flying mammals, or what?

Paul,

Mainly this is because the populations of big brown bats (one of the main bats excluders deal with) is appearing to not be as hampered by WNS, in fact
they actually are on the rise in many winter surveys being done in the eastern states.

Combine the rise of a very very common house using bat species and then add in a better informed public and you do have a recipe for more bat calls.

However, and this is the caveat, not only are little brown bats devastated throughout their eastern and midwestern range on up into Canada and the provinces but at least 2 other species are severely impacted as well.

Where many winter counts used to show caves with 50,000 or 100,000 wintering little browns you might be lucky to find 20-40 individual bats in those same caves now.

There are many reasons why the big browns aren't as effected, ranging from body size and winter hibernation temps needed, but also torpor bout (duration) and other things we likely can't measure biologically.

****

So my take home answer would be:

1) species of bats you are getting calls for might not be those impacted by WNS

2) more informed public and agencies about bats and bat conservation/exclusion

3) potential increases in the populations of bat species like big browns that do use homes/buildings

What hasn't happened though is that this WNS is something that isn't taking a toll, it simply is hitting other bat species like
the little brown, the northern long-eared bat, etc.... Those are losing the fight and with listings and proposed listing slated
from USFWS you will continue to see declines until either some miracle cure comes along or eventual selective immunity starts
reversing the downward spiral that is currently plaguing bats.

We tell the public at booths, remember, when you produce 1-2 pups a year and you lose millions (6-7 million current estimates)
out of your populations regionally, it takes a long long time to come back from it.

My .02 anyway, hope that helps.

Justin

Jonesie,

There are likely far more overwintering bats than folks realize and as you say, they don't read the field guide or published information!

One of the reasons I think more NWCO's need to talk to and work with their local and regional bat researchers and biologists is to improve the
info on bats in structures. In our state they used to believe all bats were pretty much in a cave or migrated out by end of October, though we have
lots of accounts including overwintering species like Mexican free-tailed bats that we are finding farther and farther north staying throughout
the winter.

Since the public rarely calls a scientist to deal with their pest or wildlife control issue, there is a deficit unless the state/fed agency personnel have
themselves become very informed by working with nwcos and the public as is witnessed in some states and regional areas.

Summer time roost switching is more likely due to thermal extremes especially with maternity colonies in some species. Winter time bats overwintering need the most solid temperatures they can related to their own fitness, fat reserves and biological timing to be sure they can reach spring without burning up all their fat and emerging fully expecting insects when there are none (the white nose syndrome problem).

Many on here and elsewhere document widespread overwintering of bats in structures, to me its not different than bat boxes and house roosts on structures during summer, except in winter they have to be extremely biologically in tune to be sure they don't burn out before they can come out at the right time of year to feed and thrive.

I do agree for every bit of written info on bats there are exceptions and the exceptions often should tell us where we should be looking to improve the "rules" related to bat exclusion.

Just some random thoughts there.....

On a side note, we get silver-haired bats more than any other showing up (mostly males) after onset of winter here in the valley. Single bats in houses or found outside not looking well. No real published info on where they are going or what they are doing, but the large proportion that come to rehabbers we work with are this species here in the winter (a tree roosting species), whereas others in our area, might emerge and take on water and return to the site to go back to their hibernation.

Bats are just fascinating as there is a massive realm not easily studied in them due to size and behavior and so forth...

The reason I give in my workshop and presentations is public awareness. I don't have any "science" to back this up, it's just my personal belief from dealing with the phone calls and questions I get asked.

Keep in mind that for years, the number one fear people have with bats was/is rabies. Over the last several years another fear has developed with the public known as bat bugs. Now, another disease fear has emerged with WNS as people are concerned that if they have bats in the attic/house, they will contract it. Since the media has done a great job promoting that there is no cure it has created the reaction of homeowners and tenants actually paying attention and looking for potential problems and offering more potential customers to our industry.

The second point to remember with WNS is that out of the 47 bat species we have in the US, according to BCI only 10 species are currently being affected by it. In terms of little brown versus big brown bats, according to a paper written in 2003 at that time only twice had a little brown bat been found inside a structure during winter and both times they were solitary males whereas it was considered common to find groups of big brown bats using structures as hibernacula's. Both of these species are considered to be structure dependent with few known maternity colonies occurring in natural locations such as hollow trees.

During hibernation, little brown bats were more likely to be found packed together in medium to large size groups in the hibernacula than big browns or the other affected species. As it is believed that WNS is passed through contact, it makes sense that the species with the largest populations in the hibernacula would be hit the hardest.

The third point to keep in mind is that more than 5 species of bats are commonly found inside of structures (big brown, little brown, tri-colored, pallid, and Mexican free-tail). A 2003 study collected data showing that 27 out of the 45 (which was the number of known US species before genetic testing allowed for reclassification) bat species were found inside of structures. It's just that the top 5 species are known to be found in higher numbers than the rest.

Most of what we "know" about bats is anywhere from 80 - 120 years old. WNS has started a lot of research that is rewriting the text books of old. For example, researchers are finding out that most bat species have multiple roost sites that they use based on factors such as weather conditions and roost temperatures. During winter, this movement with the hibernacula can be anything from staying within the same cave and moving to another location in the cave to leaving the cave or other structure for a better spot. During maternity seasons, changing roost sites can be moving from the attic to the soffit, moving to another side of the structure, or even leaving the structure. Big brown females will abandon their pups when the roost gets too hot returning at night from their other roost location to feed the pups. Some species will even leave after a day or two to a new location making a big circuit with all their roost sites.

In finishing up this response I'll give you information from the VP of Education of BCI. He stated in 2012 that by 2016, over 2 million bats (I used to say billion but I really believe my brain misheard him) will be killed yearly at wind farms and that number is expected to rise. The number of estimated bat fatalities in 2012 was 600,000 and for 2013 I've heard it was almost 1 million.

In terms of Federal protection, this year the Florida bonneted bat was added to the Endangered Species List and it was proposed that the Northern long eared bat be listed as well. Both of these species have been found in homes. Additionally, the Eastern small footed bat was denied listing but is still listed as a species of concern due to habitat loss and the little brown bat is currently under consideration.

So while WNS is something that we need to keeps tabs on it is by no means the only thing that can affect bat work for NWCO's. Rather, we are facing multiple potential threats resulting from loss of habitat, human development, and disease that could result in having to apply for a Federal permit to perform an exclusion, have a bat biologist inspect a home and give the OK before you can begin work, and/or be limited to only two or three months out of the year to perform bat exclusions to name just a couple. This is why I gave a worse case scenario death of bat work presentation at WCT last year trying to show why we need to start working with our regulatory departments to have input and show that we are competent to do this type of work.

Nice post Eric, lots of great info there!

Eric you hit the nail on the head with research being old and outdated. Plus maybe a little bias just maybe a little on some accounts. Plus I have tried to find research that is based on winter bats in home's, there is none that I could find at my level of search. Matter fact most research is done on the caves and larger colonies of bats, Why because it is more fun, who wants to crawl around some attic in the winter and just try to find bats that May be there. Plus there is no money in a research like that, grants are hard enough to get.
I have been doing bats for along time, before anyone even know about the whens and hows, we got the bats out at night, My first bat job came in the early 80's from a state wildlife manager in wildlife control. When I asked how do I do it, his reply was simply I have NO F-in Idea, and called a few hour later and said count the bats for 3 night on the fourth start sealing up. That my friends I can tell you may not be the best method, I can assure you of that LOL.
I will be the first to tell you that both of you guys Eric and HD make me look stupid when it comes to bats and research, I mean that in a humble way, I am amazed at what you guys know, and you have good information. BUT Up until not to long ago,(5 or 6 years) I was told by many Bat experts, NOT you guys or even anyone concerned with bat control except, on how to NOT exploit the bats, that all bats went to the caves in my area. and that these experts very seldom saw bats in a home in the winter. that the wood structure was not consistent enough in temperature to winter over bats. Big stone and brick structures could because of the materials used to build the structure was more consistent with caves in hold consistent temps needed for hibernation. also That bats never fly after Nov. Yet every Dec, Jan and Feb on the days where temps get to 45 or above I am called out at night for bats in living spaces (most likely bats wintering over in structure in my mind), or bats hanging on fireplace curtains behind glass doors. The fireplace bat in My uneducated mind is that the bats was looking for another place to hang out, as we know that the bats are not wintering over hanging on the inside of a flue liner. They always seem to appear late in the pm or early in the am, or they see them at daybreak just sitting there, at least in my mind, If, they was wintering over bats they would show up early in the pm, 8 to 10 pm as most of my living structure bats do. again just many years of seeing the same thing over and over. I am also told that bats do not have secondary den sites in the winter, yet we know that they have other den sites in the late summer, again as Eric stated, I have no science to prove or disprove this, but I believe after the young are flying bats travel to better food source areas, say rivers farms etc. also mid August My absolute numbers for June and July in that house, now start to go up and down on a daily basis. I believe, if the distance is great to a good food area, the bats just find a den over there, again just an old dog wco with observations. so if this may be true in the summer then why not in the winter, where maybe the temps may change and the bats look for a different consistency.
The one problem I see with research is one glove does not fit all. just to use this post as an example and only a example. Eric you are in a area THAT I didn't want to go outside when I was there. LOL your lake effect stuff or whatever they call it is not a fun thing LOL HD you are from the south west. And I am on the line for the north east and south east. 2 hours south and I am in the true south. heck I even talk with alittle draw LOL My temps are not stable, one day I am teens 4 days later I am 50, I am getting hammered now but that is only every few years seems like, 3 years temps are up and down, and the next year like this one with constant low temps, yet 80 miles north they are in the snow belt and cold temps all winter. NJ is 2 different states when it comes to landscape, weather and yes even peoples mindsets. oh and talk LOL My point is in the south you have consistent temps for the most part, just little changes for an average, the North you boys are consistently very cold. I again believe, with no science, just seeing the same, over and over, that when bats are in what I call a inconsistent temperature change, up and down, it is hard for them to be anything consistent. I believe Eric use the word (hibernacula). So perhaps bats will differ from old or bias research in different regions, based on the bats themselves, to do what it takes to survive. I have a saying animals do not get depressed and commit suicide, they survive if they can.

Just some thoughts from a ole redneck.

Good thoughts Jonesie! Appreciate you sharing your insight based on experience, we all can learn from anyone if we are open to it.

With bats in houses many agency folks never really saw a connection or need to worry. Now with bat conservation being pushed to new heights due to WNS, wind energy, other threats as Eric listed, folks are finally listening and focusing a bit more on homes and what we do.

It was hard for me not to see why no one was too worried about summer bats in structures from agency perspectives.

The bats dying from wns don't reproduce in the cave though they might breed there in the swarm, so how could folks not see the importance of what nwcos do to safely exclude during non maternity season.

Now there is a focused concern and the agencies are looking for ways to use the bat standards course from NWCOA and start talking and working more collaboratively with our industry as a whole.

Lots that we can teach and educate on that most outside the industry wouldn't know.

Again thanks for sharing, this is a productive thread!

Justin

Jonesie,

I agree with a lot of your comments regarding research. It is probably my number one pet peeve that a study is done and then applied globally to the species. Thankfully, today a lot of researchers realize that while there are certain items that can be applied globally, a lot of an animal's behavior is specific to its location and thus the resources available to it.

I'll let Justin explain the realities of research if he wants as he is more familiar with it than I am, but the point I want to make is that it almost never is as simple as saying "Let's go and find out about this" unless it is self funded. Instead it generally starts with how do we get funding to study "this" and no matter how relevant the subject matter it may be, if you can't find someone to pay the bills the research won't get done. Case in point, look at how little funds are being set aside for WNS. Of course, this can also lead to the research being bias to ensure additional research funds from the source which in my opinion is why a lot of research projects are challenged to see if the results can be duplicated or not.

Some good points Eric,

Important too that I should state that though little has been published new on bats in structures or research in that vein, there are tons of bat publications (peer reviewed articles) and even books written each year. Some amazing new research is being published about a wide variety of bat species and new technology and some improvements on old technology is allowing more opportunity.

Eric hit the nail on the head about funding. All research obviously takes funding to make it happen. In my career I've seen the most funding for wildlife dedicated to wildlife issues that either cause a human health issue (rabies, tuberculosis, etc...), those that impact high dollar or threatened/endangered wildlife species.

Beyond that, there has to be a list of criteria.

1) Why does it need to be studied (what is the hypothesis being investigated or posed)

2) Does a professor or agency have funding for the species, or the issue being posed?

3) Is there a large enough sample size to provide statistical analysis that would pass peer review scrutiny for publication

4) Politics (studies are funded just because someone has a political need to drive it forward obviously in many realms of
life but in wildlife management and conservation as well.

Other factors beyond my ability at this hour, so will leave it there....

Would love to see more research that focuses on the wildlife species we work with in our industry and not just the tools
we use and how we resolve the issues, but the biology and behavior of wildlife species in and around urban/suburban and rural
homes and landscapes.

Goes back to $$$$$$$$$........



Justin

I sure glad someone can type...... Great posts guys.....