Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: ]
#4035238
10/04/13 07:45 PM
10/04/13 07:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,165 Central NC
traprjohn
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,165
Central NC
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One day, that carrying capacity should kick in.... Many don't realize coon, opossum, etc are predators and work on the ground nesters like grouse, quail, baby rabbits, etc. There is only so much prey base for any given area.
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4035254
10/04/13 07:54 PM
10/04/13 07:54 PM
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DaveK
Unregistered
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DaveK
Unregistered
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Oh, I agree...but there must be an abundance of food in these parts.
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4035998
10/05/13 11:04 AM
10/05/13 11:04 AM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111 NM
HD_Wildlife
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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Usually when carrying capacity is filled the result is what we preach as consumptive sportsmen, natures way takes a toll with death through disease and starvation. With raccoon and others this is usually distemper, or rabies or other nasty stuff.
Like the lady that argued with me many years ago now in Oregon about how she loved feeding cats and raccoons next to each other in the back yard and this last two years she noticed they were nearly all gone, what could have happened?
At this same time distemper was sweeping through the valley and any concentrations of critters are going to get hit fastest. Just like we've seen with so many diseases, artificial feeding, or concentrations of animals in any given location raises the likelihood for transmission, including mange in coyotes and fox, and so forth.
I know my rhetoric is the same and I'm sure its tiring to hear just as some of the others are for me as well, but the song remains the same and true, if you don't tag/transmit animals and follow them from capture to death or cradle to grave in these relocations, there is not one iota of actual fact that says the results are positive. Whereas there is a body of research that is growing by the month and year showing in all species this produces a massive range of negative factors.
I figured by now this thread would have died, honestly trying to let it, though I love debating, I know folks don't like to hear the same thing parroted again and again and thats all I'm doing at this point.
So my apologies to those who are tired of it, just making sure I'm addressing any new aspects or thoughts with my own perspective.
A final thought, though we do pull food from the wildlife populations in a variety of forms, the world outside our doors has a pyramid all its own from the bugs to the top carnivores, very few including those who have spent eons looking closely, can see all the dynamics of the natural world and how unnatural movement of animals through human induced efforts both homeowners and professionals can be negative in so many ways. Many we just don't care about, or can't see...
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4036390
10/05/13 05:01 PM
10/05/13 05:01 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361 mequon, wisconsin
Paul Winkelmann
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Justin, we are not exactly on the same side of this debate but I have read every word you have typed and I haven't got tired of it. You are one of the few people that can return an answer very quickly. So here's my question; if I remember correctly, raccoons can be susceptible to both canine and feline distemper, right?
I have had a number of customers who, although they never wanted it, found their pets sharing cat food with raccoons. In those cases, what warnings should I give the customer besides the distemper shots?
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Mike K.]
#4037571
10/06/13 09:38 AM
10/06/13 09:38 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129 Dudley NC
Muddawg
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129
Dudley NC
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My approach to relocation is more personal than scientific.
But, to begin with, I don't like the idea of "Moving" a problem. Let's take the coon, for instence, who has developed a taste for dog food. Lady feeds the dog on the screened in back porch. Coon rips through the screen to get the dog food. I catch the coon and drive him 20 miles down the road where he is released unharmed.
That sounds so sweet and kind, don't it? But, in reality, I know that coon will start trying to find his way home. He will travel until the scent of dog food hits his nose again and then he tears into someone else's back porch.
The second thing I consider is numbers... You can't pay me to move a gray squirrel! We, here, have too dang many of them as it is! We have squirrels in every yard, park, garden, nature trail, bike path, school campus and nearly every dang tree! They are everywhere! When they run out of trees, they move into attics and sofits where they destroy electric wiring and chew holes through woodwork.
Now, why on earth would I take a squirrel, who already knows how to chew through sofit, from one home and move him into another neighborhood with all new wood for him to chew on? I'm too honest for that type of job security. Again... Just relocating a problem.
The next thing I think about before relocating is, "what is the damage compared to the benifit?" A good example would be snakes. I can't say that I've ever seen any snake damage. Folks pay me to take them simply because they are snakes. I catch them, bring them home to my house and turn them loose. I've done that enough now that I have some who have taken residence and stay. Yes, I have snakes under my house but I don't have mice!
I have released the occasional possum here at my house because at the time I didn't have the time to build a holding pen. No matter. I can go back and catch them whenever I please. Twice, I have released coon here, simply because they were still juviniles and I didn't have the heart to pop a baybe. Again, If they are still around, I can catch them again later, when I'm ready to deal with them.
Protected animals, such as rattle snakes and alligator, I'll call the Game Warden and let him tell me what to do with them. That way, it's out of my hands and I'm not responsible.
I do worry about the diseas and mortalities and all that as well, but that's just not the first things I consider.
Muddawg
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4037742
10/06/13 11:26 AM
10/06/13 11:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843 NH
sgs
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843
NH
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But, in reality, I know that coon will start trying to find his way home. He will travel until the scent of dog food hits his nose again and then he tears into someone else's back porch. How is it that you know this?
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: sgs]
#4041125
10/08/13 08:40 AM
10/08/13 08:40 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129 Dudley NC
Muddawg
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129
Dudley NC
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Sgs, It's just animal nature. Animals, just like humans, are most comfortable in their own environment, IE, home. Taken from their home, they will try to return. If they can't get back to what they know as home, then they will settle for what ever is closest to it. Take our relocated coon, for example. He's been taken 20 miles from his home. As soon as his feet hit the ground, he will start his journey back. Now, 20 miles should be enough distance that he can't find his way back home, so, eventually, he will get hungry and stop the journey home long enough to find food. If he already has a taste for a certain food and he finds it, he'll go right back to what he knows and this in itself makes him feel more at home. I know I'm not explaining this well, but think of it this way, dog food on a porch is dog food on a porch. If Kibbles and Bits is what the coon has come to love, then Kibbles and Bits on a porch 20 miles away is still like home to him. Once he runs across that in his search for "Home" then his search is over. Yeah, I read a lot and watch a LOT of nature films. Old Walt Disney films are a WEALTH of information to the hunter and trapper.
Muddawg
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4041205
10/08/13 09:31 AM
10/08/13 09:31 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843 NH
sgs
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843
NH
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It's just animal nature. Animals, just like humans, are most comfortable in their own environment, IE, home. Taken from their home, they will try to return. That's the theory, who knows if it's true? There's a big difference between thinking something and knowing something. It makes just as much sense to say, after being trapped, terrorized and transported the animal's nature is to stay as far away from where it all happened as possible. I'd like to see actual evidence of either. There was a study in Conn. years ago where they collared trapped raccoons before release and the majority took off for parts unknown, they didn't try to return at all. Now that's not proof of much but at least it's a study.
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4041582
10/08/13 01:20 PM
10/08/13 01:20 PM
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111 NM
HD_Wildlife
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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Radio collars run anywhere from $80.00-$250.00 for most of the nwco related species. To actually get some research going wouldn't cost that much money, the issue is really the tracking itself. The smaller the collar, the shorter your transmission distance and thus you need to stay on the animal as best you can. In MI we had raccoons go 15+ miles during dispersal and were only found thanks to some aerial time while monitoring our collared coyotes during winter months. We have offered in our state to put up the funding for the collars and monitor raccoons (in this case) to see what percentage live/die and where they stay or move to. I will be the first to say if I'm wrong about raccoon/skunk/squirrel/opossum/coyote if it is proven to me through the science. Until then the dominant science shows translocation/relocation is insanely hard on the wildlife species studied. **** Wink, I know your not one I'll wear out with my thoughts but thanks for saying it anyway! - Busy week haven't been on, so much for quick answers! Had a harvest festival booth for bats and wrapping up a bunch of bird and bat exclusion projects trying to beat the impending snow up north... Will get back to you with a tight list on the domestics/wild at same feeder. **** Thanks Mike as well for your support, again I know I'm not bothering everyone, but I know some folks would just as soon I dropped out with my minority opinion soapbox. Just don't want to be the guy who makes the rest think the forum sucks, this is a great forum, and does offer some good opportunity to debate and to learn about techniques, marketing, etc.... lots and lots shared!
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Paul Winkelmann]
#4042923
10/09/13 07:33 AM
10/09/13 07:33 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129 Dudley NC
Muddawg
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129
Dudley NC
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Sgs, I'll have to give you that argument as it is theory I'm going on. But, still, the logic is sound. Critters will repeat what they know to work. So, if a coon in one spot associates back porches with food in one place, it's only logical to think he'll continue to associate back porches with food in a new location. Relocate a coon and whether he is driven out by the local population or just simply wanders off in search of food, cover or companionship, he's still gonna move around. In all that moving, it's likely that he would become a problem to someone else. I just as soon avoid future problems by having him visit the mashed taters and gravy on my Sunday dinner table.
Muddawg
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4043378
10/09/13 12:26 PM
10/09/13 12:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843 NH
sgs
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843
NH
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I have read numerous peer-reviewed articles on the subject and haven't found any that would support relocating nuisance wildlife. Tacoman, could you steer me to some of these peer-reviewed articles? I'm certainly open to both sides of the issue.
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Peskycritter]
#4044822
10/10/13 07:23 AM
10/10/13 07:23 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843 NH
sgs
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 843
NH
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Re: Before relocating critters
[Re: Lundy]
#4044980
10/10/13 09:11 AM
10/10/13 09:11 AM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129 Dudley NC
Muddawg
trapper
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trapper
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 129
Dudley NC
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Minneapolis City Council just voted in CNR. Catch Neuter Release. Believe it or not, the Humane Society, of all people, spoke AGINST this! They feel MN is too cold of a climate for Cats to live outside. I have noticed that LOCAL Humane Society organizations, many times do think rationally and logically and do great work for their community. It's the National Humane Society we have prblems with. As far as CNR, I would be against it anywhere! ESPECIALLY with cats. Cats are natural born hunters and when released into the wild can be devastating to the indiginous wildlife there. Now. Getting back to the "relocating" debate. I support relocating for the purpose of repopulating a species in an area where they have faded out due to man's overharvesting or some other than natural cause. I still do not support introducing a species where it has never been before. Nor do I see any point in relocating an animal into an area where there are plenty of his own species already there. The relocated animal will have to drive another out of the area to find his own place or he may be driven out himself by the ones already established there. Either way, the numbers will remain the same and you'll have a displaced coon in search of a new home.
Last edited by Muddawg; 10/10/13 09:16 AM.
Muddawg
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