For us Northern boys.

I always wait until Spring to do bat exclusions but was asked today:

Why wait? If the bats are hibernating or gone for the winter putting tubes up now wouldn't matter as long as they didn't come down until after Spring.

So what are some pros and cons of putting tubes up now and just leaving them til spring?

Up until about 10 years ago I did a lot of winter exclusion work, including one-ways which would be left in place until late spring. However, having witnessed bats actively flying during warm-ups in January and February, I now only do all the preliminary sealing, leaving the access points open (no excluders) until spring when they are fully active. Evicting them during mid-winter may cause die-offs if they can't get back into their hibernation site. Talking with a bat biologist about this and we were both on the same page.

I have the same concerns as Ron but being much further south if I have a warm spell of several days the valves get installed.
The other issue that concerns me is the sealants used. Many do not set up properly outside of proper operating temps so if in doubt I don't.

David that has always been my reasoning. Sealants don't work great in 20 degree weather.

Ron that is a great point and one I never considered.

Like I said I don't start exclusions until April 1st which is probably later than it needs to be but I use hard dates.

April 1st to May 15th and then August 16th to October 15th.

Lady called me and was looking for an exclusion to be done soon so she could sell the house but I had to turn her away.

I just quoted a job at elementary school today. They want the work done asap. Its a colony of Free-tails that are getting in under the flashing of the flat roof. Estimated 500 plus. The droppings are falling on the drop tile ceiling in a class room. These are part of a colony that I removed from a hospital last winter less than a1/2 mile away...no doubt.. I did that exclusion and it was a low of 30 degrees that week and the bats were still active. It was a hospital and it also had to be done asap.
$$$$$$$$$$

We have a few nice days here next week... in the 60s.

Never claim a bat colony to be one of "your" former exclusions, at least not in front of a customer. I did that once and didn't like the reaction. It suddenly became my fault that the bats from three houses down moved in.

Sometimes people get a little bit too caught up in the whole protecting the bats thing, and they forget that it is the customer they are there to protect. If the animals get to survive too, then thats a bonus, because we will see that colony again someday down the block.
Maybe it's for the publicity, or the fact that most of us were raised not to kill an animal unless we are going to make use of it. If it were an issue that could impact the population of bats in the area, believe me, we wouldn't be allowed to work in the winter.
So before we all go buying tickets to get a ride with the Sea Shepard, lets remember that it is our own species we are working for, not an animals.

I prefer to work for the animals. Our own species are hopeless.

Let me know when one of them writes you a check Nate. LOL! I dont do allot of bat work in the winter because I am spoiled, and don't like the snow, but I do keep a list, and when I get bored I work my way through it. I think Ive rested enough after a hard summer, and with spring right arround the corner I may as well go get my travel trailer ready, because I think im going to be using it allot this year. Most people use there travel trailers a couple weeks a year. I probobly use mine for a total of 15 weeks a year. Best 1300 bucks I ever spent on living quarters!

Mike, the post about protecting our own species was spot on. ( Okay Nate, I realize that some of us ain't worth protecting, but I haven't met a bat with money yet ) As Liberal and Conservative as Wisconsin is, we always protect each other so that we have somebody to scream at.

OK.....you guys got me.

I only spare the smart bats and raccoons that agree to keep going to houses with good insurance.

(This of course was a joke)

Ron, how can you tell where the entries are in the winter (mostly I can tell by droppings, but I know the other signs)?

If you are doing the whole house you will find them. the dropping are still there along with the smudge marks. I do bat work all winter. if the temps goes up in the day time above 45 the bats will fly a little. if it is cold below the 40 day time, then the excludders stay up till we get a few days of above 45.
every one thinks that bats live in one home. I believe that is true for females that have young but as soon as the young are flying I think the bats move around. for example you have a home that like clock work 70 bats fly out of from June to august. then all of a sudden there is 100 bats flying out well we all know that the young are now flying. then go back and count at the end of August and the numbers are different each night. or you have the customer say the bats are gone. one researcher I heard feed back from said that bats in homes have different den sites. it only stands to reason that they will go to where the food is. so in a nut shell that bat will go to another den site. and to prove it if they did not have other dens then every home we exclude in the summer those bats would be all over every hose we do on the outside not just a couple and the only time I see that is after the young are flying and do not know where to go yet.

I yes Mike I agree and you have heard a few of my rants on a few pod casts on people vs animals and in that order LOL

I notice them rotating roost sites all the time.

Look at your state regulations and see if there are any dates when you cannot exclude. Every state is different.

Due to disease and conservation issues with bats, I first recommend that everyone start referring to bat proofing or bat exclusion as the act of installing the exclusion devices instead of the process of sealing structures and removing bats. The reason for doing so is that it allows work to be done on the structure anytime of year (unless expressly prohibited by state law) as Ron Scheller has described.

Next, it is important to understand the products being used and their properties. When dealing with sealants, a silicon based product may not adhere properly to the structure in winter unless heat has been applied to the area first to ensure no moisture is present. Since silicon cures by exposure to water, any water present will begin the curing process causing the material to cure and pull away leaving potential openings. Chemical cure products may have a similar issue as the moisture may prevent them from adhering to the structure even though they cure in a completely different manner. You also need to understand what products require dry tooling, wet tooling, no tooling and/or bond breakers for lasting work. Ambient and surface temperature play critical roles with all sealants and caulks. As a general rule, the Sealant, Waterproofing, and Restoration Institute (who actually test these products and rate them) recommends that sealants on structures not be applied when the ambient temperature is below 40 degrees F or the surface temperature is above 140 degrees F. Additionally, most products require 28 days to be fully cured (which happens as an outside to inside process) so application issues may not be apparent right away.

In terms of biology, it is normal for bats to move locations inside of hibernacula, move between hibernacula, or even feed during warm-ups in winter. When dealing with maternity or nursery colony’s, they are very specific to certain micro climates and will move from one to another if their current location does not meet their needs. A basic guideline that can be followed in winter is anytime temperatures are above 40 degrees F, there can be bat activity. So if you have exclusion devices on a structure with a known hibernacula, those bats most likely won't make it. As an industry, we need to do our best to ensure the minimum amount of bat fatalities as possible regardless of personal feelings. Over the last several years there has been more movements within regulatory departments to place limitations on bat work due to declining bat populations and if our industry isn't careful it is very possible to have bat work removed from wildlife control activities. Don’t focus on bats getting listed on the Federal Endangered Species List. Rather, focus on what will happen if every state decides to list their bat species as threatened or endangered. If this would happen, we could expect most bat work to be shut down overnight.

What is going to happen if NY finally lists the little brown bat on it’s endangered species list? When PA was first hit hard with white-nose, they considered requiring a bat biologist to inspect any structure with a bat colony and approve exclusion work before it could be started. Luckily, this didn’t happen but it is a concern that it was even thought about. Ohio recommended this year that no exclusions could be performed between Nov 1 and Aug 1 but again luckily this was rejected by our division of wildlife as unrealistic. Currently, there is a $31 million dolor road project on hold for 4 - 5 months in IA due to a single Indiana bat being found in a bridge this month. Imagine how much tax dollars are being wasted for the company’s equipment to just sit there waiting for a bat survey to begin in May. So to think this won't happen is incorrect.

While I agree that protecting people from wildlife conflicts is our mission, I also think it is hard to justify to regulatory officials why bats need to be removed when whey are not in physical contact with occupants of a structure. The current science says that as long as their is no contact, there is no problem. Again, I personally don't agree with that finding but it is very difficult to get those with that belief to understand otherwise.

For the sake of the industry my recommendation is to adopt an policy that there is no problem with performing repairs to buildings in winter unless a bat hibernacula is known to reside in the structure. So if no bats are found during an inspection, there is no issue sealing the structure and no need for exclusion devices provided there is confidence that no bats are present. However, if bats are or may be present, than work should be limited to repairs on areas that bats have not been actively using with bat proofing performed only after the colony has become active in the Mar/Apr timeframe. If it is not possible to determine these areas then work should be postponed until a bat watch can be conducted to determine activity points (based on species and the number of bats using the structure guano or rub marks may not be present making identification more difficult).

By taking this approach it not only helps the industry, but it also takes advantage of the bat's biology. If bats are in hibernation, they can't use installed exclusion devices anyway so there is no need for them but the job can be sold and payment for other work performed can be received. It also means that work can be performed throughout the year with structures that show zero bat activity, feed roosts, or bachelor colony's.

Good post Would make a good article in WCT magizine.

Geeze Jim, give me some time will you, LOL.

Wasn't going to post on this as I think it went from a simple answer about why you might not do bat exclusions during the winter
to us versus them (people versus wildlife).

This isn't an animal rights discussion, but it is a discussion about a time of year that is second (possibly) only to maternity season
for bats.

Eric put down a ton of great information so I'm not going to say much, other than while we as excluders may think that we are the
best possibility for bats to be excluded humanely and at the same time protect the homeowner and educate them about bats.

We quickly remove the idea that we are conservationists in our work and ethics when we simply state, I do it because I can.

Whenever someone says laws or regulations may be passed, folks on this forum and others or in general conversation always say,
"good luck with that, people will be killing bats themselves then or trying haphazardly to exclude them with terrible results that
will lead to far more detriment to bat populations."

True?

Likely.

But.... Put right in your mind that this topic of making winter exclusion is on the charts and is rising as the spread of this disease
spreads. Even without imperiling bats as WNS has, it has made people more aware of possible threats to bat species nationwide.

The simple fact now is that more people know more than they did before and these folks are talking about what you and I do.

You can say they don't have a right, you can say you'll be exempt because of your state or powers that be or even association with
some higher power.

But please realize this is completely on the table and is not some scare tactic I'm throwing out there.

I know we are in business to make money and we do that resolving wildlife conflicts. While some folks are in states that may have
winter movement between houses or between roosts, there isn't anything to eat in most northern states (insects are not moving) so
sealing off a roost completely in winter or providing a one way that the bats will leave through and not be able to re-enter is akin
to killing them.

We as an industry have no credibility for what happens to those bats, you can fall back on the idea that no one else knows either, but
we can easily infer that blocking them out of a structure they were hibernating in during winter conditions (even during a "warm spell")
is going to force them to find a new spot or die.

So I'm going to ask this, why aren't the folks who want to do winter work, doing interior seal up work to make the homeowner rest easy
that the bats can't get in with occupants and once spring weather arrives and bats become truly active and resume activity, they will be
excluded by you.

Safe for your CLIENT, safe for the BATS!

Everybody wins and we aren't providing water cooler talk for the many many many govt. folks that know and read this forum and others
who are thinking, geez maybe we do need to stop these folks, some of them seem like they simply don't want to make sure they don't
impact the resource negatively.

I have some of the same bat species you folks do that will overwinter, I also have others that you don't have in the midwest and up north
that will overwinter.

We also all know (those who have done 3 or more bat jobs even) that bats use such a wide variety of roost types that unless bats are in
an open attic situation where you can lay your eyeballs on them, or under insulation, etc... that if they are down in the wall void or behind
brick fascia, etc.... you will not know they are still there unless they move/make noise etc.... so you have to assume if you start after
hibernation season begins that you might have bats in the structure.

Everyone is going to do what they are going to do until they can't do it, but please take in what I said and realize folks are already thinking
this way, and as Eric correctly states, you don't need the feds to use the ESA in this case, just listing the bats as state threatened or endangered
is enough and is easy to accomplish and then $0.00 or many many hoops with your friendly neighborhood biologist riding along or having
to sign on the line for each and every exclusion.

All I'm saying is think through why it NEEDS to be done, versus what CAN be done and what SHOULD be done.

More than I meant to say but that is typical.

Have a great day, going out to enjoy the 70 degree weather we are hitting.........

Justin, thank you for your clear, logical and science-based info. I agree; knowing that this is a public forum, those of us who pride themselves on being bat-whackers ("because I can, humans more important than animals", etc.), will get our industry in the crosshairs of any government agency that is tasked with protecting bats.
Do bat work with bat conservation in mind - and pride yourself for doing so - or expect to be shut down if and when WNS becomes nationwide. Don't prod the sleeping giant.
Has WNS been found in any structure-dwellers?

If we were digging into a cave in the winter, where there were bats napping, that would be us going in on there territory, and it would be stopped by the state. Our homes are ours, and we should be able to protect them/and ourselves.Anyone who thinks we are bad guys for doing so is dreaming in color. Wisconsin wrote the bat law that way.
I dont understand why you would choose to protect the bats over our own species when it comes down to it. I truely dont believe you do. I honestly believe you should have been in the White House with that politically correct statement.

Mike,

Which statement, just for clarity.

It was Daves post I was referring to HD. I am not a bat hater, nor am I a bat hugger. I worked for the federal govt. for 15 years, and had my fill of people scared of there own shadow when it comes to pretty much anything controversial. Its no wonder our country is in the shape its in. Everyone wants to politically correct whether they believe what they are saying or not.

Thanks for the clarification Mike,

I assume most folks would agree that the "issues" people have with bats in their home fall generally into one category.

1) Fear (rational or otherwise)

2) Potential Disease Risk (rabies or histoplasmosis)

3) Damage/Odor (insulation/wood/urine/droppings)

I know there are other tweaks to each of these that concern other areas but these are usually the major issues.

I guess my thoughts boil down to if the people have bats in their home and notice it in winter during some movement
or noise/scratching, other... What stops us from waiting until spring?

Is it that the people are so afraid of the bats being the building over winter, and then can't we seal them out of the internal
structure without causing any possible harm in the process?

I've had clients as I'm sure many of you have especially those decades into this work, that are so afraid of bats or the single
bat in the house that they sleep in the bathtub (I had this just this year) or they cover all their electronics and surfaces with
drop cloth because they think even one single bit of guano is enough to kill or injure them (again this year).

I also had a client who wouldn't even take my card, which has a pic of a bat on it, but by the end of the day she took all my
cards and was completely changed over from being so afraid of bats to understanding why they were using her house and
how exclusion was going to make this right again.

I don't discount that there are some situations that occur that make it necessary to exclude even during winter, my proposal
is just that the best practice if we think bats are hibernating would be to at least attempt (as we do for maternity season) to
get the folks to feel safe and secure until we can exclude at an opportune time for bat biology.

Again, the people are safe, the bats are on their way, problem solved....

I do think we are going to see changes to laws and regulations, it is a natural consequence of looking for ways to minimize any
further damage to bat populations in a time when so many uncertainties exist.

Big brown and little brown bats of course are two that most folks work with as excluders that use caves and have been found
with WNS or suffer severe losses. Losses have been greater to little browns but the big browns are impacted. As populations dwindle
biologists and researchers will be looking for other ways to track and study remaining populations, and those that choose wintering
in homes could be of high value due to avoiding the G. destructans fungus.

If states list these species, along with other uncommon structure users the impact could be immediate to the ability to do what has
traditionally been acceptable. Right or wrong, much like Ron's thread on the single bat holding up a bridge project, laws can prevail
where logic seems to have left the building.

I definitely don't believe people are wrong to want to protect their home from any manner of issues, it is the largest investment most
people make as we all know, my hope is we can find better ways every year to mitigate bat issues while educating the public.

I believe this is where our profession can and does shine. Educate the homeowner (public), while solving their problem in an effective
manner.

Ok, gotta go do some proposals before the wife catches me eating up my day!

Justin

In winter months my phone rings less( Mainly because I live where I do) And some folks do refuse to do bat removals after Dec. However I don't mind. I actually charge less because of the fact that I am not getting 15 calls a day. I make it clear to them that it may be spring when the animals go out. I also figure that with all the homes side by side, if they do venture out and cant get back in, they will more than likely go to the neighbors, just like in the fall. The bats actually do know the neighborhood, raccoons dont have the market cornered on having multiple hang outs.

Mike it is a good point and we all know examples of roost switching bats, which some species are notorious for big brown included.

I always think not of the core group on T'man who might have many decades of experience with a particular species, but about guys/gals
who are thinking of starting a company or lurking.

If they are in a more remote or rural area and see what seems like good sense that the bats will roost switch, they might not take the right
action, which can happen anyway, but I'm always thinking about the folks who aren't commenting even more than those who are like ourselves.

I also think part of what has shaped my opinion is the folks who have done decades of bat work some of whom are on this forum and do
not perform full winter bat exclusion, versus partial seal ups and then valves/exclusion in the spring.

It makes me wonder when anyone who knows these folks considers them serious guys with tons of great methods, why we can't adopt the
same mentality and model and succeed?

We are obviously all able to do what we want to do within our laws, it just seems strange that so many get by without doing the winter exclusion
work and yet the clients wait till spring.

Anyway more than my .02 -

Justin

Justin, I agree that a newbie should find a mentor to learn from in the beginning.Sometimes in the efforts to protect a customer, it really is better to do nothing than to do the right thing at the wrong time. After they round the corner they will find themselves smoothing out the rough edges and developing a system of there own. We dont really live in the information age, we live in the misinformation age, where manipulators use all types of media to get people on board with some sort of agenda. I trust myself to do the right thing allot more than I do following some advice from Joe Schmuckatelli in a differant climate than I am.( Not talking bout you Justin so take the paranoia cape off)
I will entertain the views of others in the industry as long as they dont go all NWCOA on people and start jamming there ideals down the entire countries throats as if we all live in Nebraska.

I do agree, 1 size doesn't fit all states, all bat species or wildlife species for that matter and thus complicates all folks somehow getting on one
page. I do believe most folks have good intentions, the misinformation era is correct though, the amount of things people can "learn" that you
need them to "unlearn" is immense.

In my area there was a statement made by a local official that there were approximately 120 coyote within an 11.3 square mile urban area.

I'm getting to help unravel that one for them, but just another example.

Dialogue is never a bad thing and I don't ever expect to agree 100% with even 15-20 people let alone my whole industry. I tend to fly my own
direction and when it lines up with others that is a bonus, but when it doesn't I pitch my thoughts out there and if embraced great, if not, I move
on...

I like that "cape of paranoia!" lol!

Just for proving the "misinformation" point Mike, check out this great pic of a "fruit bat" I was called to pick up last year! Poor pallid bat didn't know
what to do with the fruity baby food this guy provided after his cat attacked the bat on their porch.

He thought about keeping it too, which is a whole other story.........

You got "fruit bats" out your way as well, imagine that. Here I thought only Georgia had the rare north american fruit bat.
I'm glad you cleared up what's in that little container I thought it might be honey mustard or sweet and sour dipping sauce.

Dipping sauce! I hadn't even thought of that aspect!

What disturbs me even more is to look at some “professional” web sites that display a fruit bat as their only bat picture. Some also display a sugar glider as a flying squirrel or other animals not found in their area, e.g., a diamondback rattlesnake from a site in the Northeast part of the country. I have received many calls for fruit bats here too.

Several customers each year seem surprised that the bats in there home are insectivores, and do not subsist on human blood.(Just lucky I suppose) To top that off are the ones who think bats will turn to dust and die if they go out in the sunlight. Some folks even ask what my bat detector looks like. I try not to laugh at them. Once again, being raised in the misinformation age shows its ugly head.

Best statement I've seen for a while.

Becomes so obvious as mentioned regarding the ridiculous things people will ask or "tell us" relating to their animal issues. They have "learned" so much by reading the wrong info online, they think WE are the ones who are nuts.

As far as this entire post and somewhat derailed direction (people verses animals), I can't say I've read anything in this thread where anyone is actually placing saving an animal before a human. If so, they are seriously twisted and should get into another line of work.

At least 95% of the time a bat issue can be dealt with while protecting the residents (human) in conjunction with positive bat conservation. I don't lose any sleep over the other 5%. As Mike says... it's our home and WE are #1 on the list.

Sadly, it's when the DIYers deal with things the ratio is reversed. WCO's are the best thing that's ever happened for bats.

AMEN

I usually just carry a cross, a mirror, and a bunch of toothpicks made out of ash to plunge into their tiny little hearts.

Dont forget the garlic Paul!

Dang it, I always forget something. No wonder I'm the oldest guy ever to be asked to appear in a twilight series.

...and holy water! Don't forget holy water!

Dave,

I don't think anyone really knows (wns found in any structure dewelling bats). There have been bats found with wing damage from structures, but can it definitively be stated that it was caused by WNS or was it something else?

To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a lot of (or any for that matter any) research on WNS and buildings to date. I'm sure this is an area where research will be focused but it is a matter of funding. There just isn’t enough money to go around for everything that needs to be done.

Some of the issues with doing research along these lines is finding a hibernacula in a structure, not being able to physically see the bats during hibernation, bats grooming the fungus off of themselves, and successful capture of the bats as they leave the structure to name just a few. Then you get into the physical characteristics of the fungus with temperatures, growth conditions, survivability of the spores, length of exposure for infection, cross contamination with other bats, etc. Just think about how much research like this costs.

I did hear about a test they are using that is similar to a gunpowder residue test (they swipe the bat with a q-tip and if it turns purple then G. destructans spores are present), but I don't know how successful or widely used the test is.

Thank you, Eric.