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#3145568 - 05/03/12 10:45 AM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Mike Flick Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/06/12
Loc: 1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
Maybe an actual bounty wont affect the population drasticly. But having a contest will; Prize money is all provided by the entry fees, and if you dont think contests mess up the population, ask any fisherman. Now we have to plant fish every year or there wouldnt be anything left to catch.
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#3145614 - 05/03/12 11:17 AM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
inthetallgrass Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/08/10
Loc: North of the river in missouri
Mike NO offense but coyotes sure ain't fish!!!!! You know many calling contest where held in my old area? A pile and they had little overall effect on the coyotes period. Having a trapping contest or calling or both when most take place would have little effect on the coyote population for the means in which many portray them to do and or solve.

GOOD Coyote control for the most part is doing timely control in and around the areas that need it the most. Not creaming the crop and moving on. That solves no issues what so ever. Most contest are held when you have the highest population of coyotes ina year cycle, ina few days time even your not going to have any direct impact to due to dispearsal of thoise coyotes at these times of year. Kill coyotes out of an area in the Fall and winter and see how long it takes to fill in good coyote habitat.

IN the upper Missouri watersheds they have many walleye fishing contest and they have little impact on the population due to the abundance of great walleye habitat, food and rearing. Fishing lakes and ponds far different than a large river system.


Edited by intheweeds (05/03/12 11:21 AM)

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#3145673 - 05/03/12 11:54 AM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Mike Flick Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/06/12
Loc: 1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
I see where you are coming from, but dead coyotes dont breed much. We just gotta make it a popular activity to produce coyote corpses.The fur is pretty worthless by the time you trap and care for the fur, it is hardly worth the time. I dont know a bigger motivator, but Im always open for ideas.
I spent 45 days in San Diego trapping coyotes and tore em up pretty good back in 05 or 06. I havent had many calls up until this year in that area.
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#3145756 - 05/03/12 12:39 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Wildlife2 Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/28/11
Loc: USA
No less effective and no more expensive than Wildlife services!
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#3145761 - 05/03/12 12:42 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Wildlife2 Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/28/11
Loc: USA
Not sure what this is, but it is clear that USDA WS did not inform them that there are service providers in the private sector.  
A clear violation of their own directive.



https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&...06037f2731ca60c
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#3145770 - 05/03/12 12:45 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: inthetallgrass]
Wildlife2 Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/28/11
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: intheweeds
Wildlife 2 where did it state WS was critical of local trappers catching coyotes? Also a bounty program is ineffective and has been proven to be a waste of money time and time again!


Third paragraph
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#3145897 - 05/03/12 02:03 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
inthetallgrass Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/08/10
Loc: North of the river in missouri
Look I'm not trying to get into a wissing contest with any of you, but when I read BS I'm going to state such.

Mike if you think in any good coyote habitat that you as 1 person on the ground trapping can have a true impact on coyotes for any length of time in and by itself so be it, but that goes against the grain so many times not even funny. Good coyote habitat fills in much quicker than many think, not months or years but can be measured in weeks out to 6 weeks most of the year, those are the facts. Specially when your trapping durring times of fur harvest!

Yes dead coyotes don't breed much but either do the majority of the pup's your trapping that takes place come fall and early winter in a healthy coyote population. Up until breeding and through it you will have dispersal taking place meaning kill all you want in Nov_ Feb and come March and April there will be more coyotes there! The ones doing clean outs and looking to set on a den. Habtiat selection by coyotes is a higher archy. Good coyote habitat will have fill in up and through the spring time! Again fact not fiction!

Plenty of people put pressure on coyotes all fall and into the winter with far more than a limited tool or two and come spring they are filled up with coyotes once again. Purely factual.

Wildlife 2 the cost part might have some merit, the effectivness does not! Trapping in and of itself is a limited means to reduce coyote issues unless working very small scale. If you have 5-6 sheep ranchers and they have 6,000 acres each trying to cover 30,000 acres with traps and charging either a daily fee or per dead coyote merely in the fall and winter your not helping them come spring lambing much at all. There is a reason coyote control people invest in more tools you need them to be efficant and to cover more than a guy or two with a few 100 acres of ground.

I guess I'm missing the paragraph please copy and paste Thank You.

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#3145900 - 05/03/12 02:04 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
inthetallgrass Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/08/10
Loc: North of the river in missouri
Fur trapping and depredation control are so apples and oranges not even close to the same.

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#3145932 - 05/03/12 02:31 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Mike Flick Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/06/12
Loc: 1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
The fur trapping wasnt on the table for me weeds. I got 153 yotes in the first 30 days because they were forced into the city, and were causing major damage, even inside homes. A big fire pushed them into the city because that was the only place they could get a meal. They were in huge packs as big as 22 and real easy to target. I focus on items like these because they are a problem, and make me lots of money.
Not to say they wont fill in, but without an 8 foot fence, and another foot going underground i dont see anyplace being free of yotes.
Im sure the next time there is a big fire out there it will go nutts again. What I am trying to get at, is that I could care less about range coyotes. They were temporarilly in the city for a reasion, and so was I.
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#3145955 - 05/03/12 02:46 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
inthetallgrass Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/08/10
Loc: North of the river in missouri
MIke you had a 1 in a million deal there fire moves all kinds of wildlife, but do you think it was your abilities that have kept you from going back or the fact no more fires concentraiting them as a bigger factor?

The point is one has to talk about range coyotes as that is the NORM of predator control, fires are not!!!!

I had a rancher where I kept his loses at a respectable rate of less than 5% annually,I can tell you for a fact fall/winter fur trapping isn';t what kept his losses down!!!! Never will.I had that happen as well, the same thing great coyote habitat burned up due to drought, 28,000 acres of prime coyote drainage his losses where higher because of it, that is the abnormal not the norm. You where working the coyotes because of people sightings, I was working to keep a 100% sheep rancher in business.Year in and out. It was never about the money for me if it where you wouldn't have people in the open range ADC workings, becuase I can tell you your never getting rich working for the program !!!!

2 different lines of thought one to bank as much cash as possible, the other to help livestock producers with their production numbers.

Bottom line until you added in the abnormal situation of a massive fire, you posted as such to give the impression that trapping in and of itself and you where the main reason there have been no call backs since 05/06. Was that your doing or mother natures? I can tell you it was mother nature and providing renewed habitat for prey species for those coyotes.

When ever someone makes statments as yours there is ALWAYS an underlying factor involved. Mange is a great coyote control tool but no one can say becuase of my efforts, it is mange that has lessened the phone calls and loss alot of the times. Take a "normal" period of time and trapping by itself is not benefical solution over all in the big scheme to portray such is well??????


Edited by intheweeds (05/03/12 02:49 PM)

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#3145969 - 05/03/12 02:56 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Paul Winkelmann Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/23/08
Loc: mequon, wisconsin
Hey Mike, I consider you kind of an authority on Wisconsin and coyotes. As many as we seem to have and also considering both size and health, I feel that they are not nearly as big a problem as they could be. What's your feelings?

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#3146036 - 05/03/12 03:33 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Mike Flick Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/06/12
Loc: 1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
I do understand them, at least I think I do. I dont see them becoming a problem here as much for lots of reasions. We hunt and trap for one. That decreases the size of packs, and makes the whole (power in numbers) thing a factor in our favor. Fewer members means less able to have fresh wheels at the end of the line to take down bigger animals. They actually do drive prey to escape routes like we do, where a waiting one takes up the chase and finishes the job.
We havent had a huge catastrophy in the wild, pushing them to enter homes, or live on cats and dogs because thats all there is available. Out west they did just that, and it was realy crazy. Even little kids were getting chased, and some dragged around before the kids parent broke it up. One old man called me while his dog was dying in his arms. He tried to save the dog which was attacked while on a leash walking in broad daylight. As he ran home with the dog in his arms, a coyote was hanging from his bicept.
We dont have that here, at least Ive never heard of it. Our yotes are much larger, and smaller packs. There is always fresh roadkill, and no reasion to do such desperate things.
Farmers complain about cows getting bloody tails from them, but they dont wanna pay my fees; So they have cows with bloody tails.
Now weeds, I am not ever going to say that I am the bestest dog trapper out there, and I also wasnt backed into a corner to tell any aspects of that operation. I was pretty up front about the whole issue. Nor do I care how you do your little friendly thing with the poor farmers in yer neck o the woods. I saw a need, I took care of bizzness, and I came home. If mother nature is to thank, then thanks mother nature. Actually it was a firefighter I have to thank for it all. I guess he wanted some overtime and threw a match. In any event, I go where the money is( Cause I do this for a living) I dont hate farmers, but they always want something for free, and when they hear my prices and sound like they dont like it, I send them a list of local trappers. I wont waste my time with a cheep coyote job when I can do a bat job in half the time for 10 times the money.

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http://www.anytimeanimalcontrol.com Since 2001,

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#3146074 - 05/03/12 03:48 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Mike Flick Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/06/12
Loc: 1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
Weeds, I was actually trapping that operation in june and july. Lots of hungry pups, and to the people there, a coyote is a coyote. Easy job to sell when they just found the family dog ripped up in the living room. Im not sure why you think putting pressure on yotes wont work, look what we did to wolves here 75 years ago. Still think its just a matter of weeks? Fact is, we need more people willing to take coyote control seriously in problem areas. Only then will we be able to control what they do.
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http://www.anytimeanimalcontrol.com Since 2001,

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#3146105 - 05/03/12 04:03 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
inthetallgrass Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/08/10
Loc: North of the river in missouri
Mike states like WI and others in the mid west don't have as many coyote issues as the west for many reasons, smaller land tracts more human interaction DAILY, less livestock and zero open range livestock production. WI along with states like IA and MO and others have a very large small prey base, unless talking north woods and then the wolves help limit coyote numbers and densities as well.

Other areas have that without fires, there is areas in the west where coyotes have sancutarys and they attack dogs and cats, Denver, Ft Collins and other cities have had issues with coyotes and local pets.

Most Ranchers and farmers aren't "cheap" as you say they need cost versus effect. They need to see the problem one that warrants the cost no different than when they apply a self tax to themselves to help pay for wildlife control like they do in many western states Mike. In WY every rancher pays 1.00 per head on cattle and sheep add that up statewide and they contribute alot of money for themselves, other states do the same. They can choose to receive services from private contractors or govt agnecies they pay into that with their money and have a stake in it.

I never heard of a "cheap" coyote job where I have worked. I don't see the people as a means of money for me, they are friends and neighbors and many great ADC western coyote men take the loss as hard as do the ranchers, different mind sets No right or wrong just different. It is a part of the western heritage been around alot longer than you or I Mike. I hope it continues on for many more years to come.

For the record most coyotes in the west are exploited coyote populations are not true pack animals most are made up of Ma and PA and offspring until fall then break up, they will gather back in heavy snow to work bigger game, but they don't have a true packing mentality like wolves. On spring dens it is made up of ma and pa and a nurse mate ussally a female from the previous year whoi is dry but that can change but talking the avg setup. Early hefier calvers will have large groups of coyotes in and around them but not true packing at all, just high coyote densities, but come denning time they are broken up defending their own niche in life.



Edited by intheweeds (05/03/12 04:05 PM)

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#3146116 - 05/03/12 04:10 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
inthetallgrass Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/08/10
Loc: North of the river in missouri

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#3146125 - 05/03/12 04:21 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Paul Winkelmann Offline
trapper

Registered: 07/23/08
Loc: mequon, wisconsin
I'm not going to argue about coyotes with either one of you because you both know way more than I do. What I will argue is farmers. THEY ARE CHEAP: I KNOW 'CAUSE I ARE ONE! You cannot compare ranchers to farmers. Ranchers are worth a fortune but may not have a lot of cash flow. Farmers have smaller acreage but still have their first communion money. Ranchers leave their kids a fortune in land. Farmers just leave their kids a fortune.

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#3146142 - 05/03/12 04:37 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Mike Flick Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/06/12
Loc: 1st civ. Div. Wood County Wi.
Coyotes dont always attack for food weeds. A january attack could indicate that a male is taking out the competition. Male coyotes do that in the real world. The differance between me and you is mostly that I didnt learn everything I know from reading and posting links. I have actually gone there and done that.
Smaller tracks of land: San Diego has thousands of acres of brush land to live and hunt. more rabbits and squirrels than anywhere ive ever been.
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http://www.anytimeanimalcontrol.com Since 2001,

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#3146213 - 05/03/12 05:25 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Lobo Rojo Offline
trapper

Registered: 03/05/12
Loc: Gillette, WY
Intheweeds is the only one that seems to grasp that there is a huge difference in coyote trapping and control geographically. Midwest farm situations and California urban situations are not the same as open range western coyote control. Unless you have been HERE and done that, you have no grasp of the situation HERE. The big livestock areas and problems. Wyoming, Montana, Nevada, western SD, etc. I am one trapper, who used to work for the USDA, and now contract to my county privately, and I alone take care of over 3000 sq miles of territory and over 30000 head of sheep and close to that number of cattle. I'm not getting into your ongoing argument over WS, just talking specifically about what intheweeds has tried to explain about coyotes in western range conditions. It's different.

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#3146227 - 05/03/12 05:43 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
Wildlife2 Offline
trapper

Registered: 02/28/11
Loc: USA
In the weed. The last link I posted was from your state. No comment?
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Working everyday to protect the private sector NWCO's by decreasing the size of the federal government.

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#3146246 - 05/03/12 05:55 PM Re: USDA Wildlife Services ITN [Re: Wildlife2]
inthetallgrass Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/08/10
Loc: North of the river in missouri
Im not sure why you think putting pressure on yotes wont work, look what we did to wolves here 75 years ago.

Mike you can't be serious to think wolves and coyotes are the same can you? I can tell you they are not! If wolves had the drive to sruvive like coyotes we would all be in trouble!

Not putting pressure on coyotes but killing when the killing has the most benefit is "KEY". I hear too many that think fall/winter fur trapping or a bounty has the same effects as timely predator control, they do not most of the time.

I'm well aware why coyotes kill: food,agression, to protect territory and at times just for the sake of such.

I am a past ADC Trapper Mike worked for the govt, enjoyed it fully and learned alot through the years from some of the best in the business. Names most don't know because they don't spend their time on websites such as these. But excellent coyote hands for sure and know them well. When you chase coyotes all months of a year in areas of very heavy exploitation you get to see them at their best and their worst and you use their weekness to get rid of them in an efficant manner. I can tell you at times of the year there are other tools far more efficant than traps! AS Lobo Rojo pointed out when you cover 2,500-3,000 sq miles you sure keep busy and put in alot of long days, you learn you have to, to be good at your craft and also to keep the very people you work for happy.

You must remember in sheep country coyote tolerance is very,very low and they are pursued with every thing you can think of and then some. Yet somehow they still manage to survive and I can tell you if your only tool in your bag is the foot trap then your not going to be very effective. The more tools one has the more efficant one can be, your on a timeline as more loss means less lambs going to the sale barn come Sept and October. The sheep market is at all time highs and looks to stay there for awhile, your not going to hear less from these ranchers but more on livestock losses.

San Dieago is not open range Mike, and yet if you would have read what I wrote I was talking about the mid west. I know a guy who takes Bees to Cali every winter to pollinate almonds and he says you wouldn;t believe the numbers of coyotes he see's and how they have little fear of humans, a few years back he took his fox pro caller and while there he fired it up as 30-40 guys where working the almond fields and had 5 coyotes come within 200 yrds of him, weaving their way through all the tractors and people. A far different "bird" for sure. They see humans as a Positive not so much a negative in that enviroment, I would love to call that area!!!!! Opportunistic is what they are for sure! Coyotes in heavy persicution don't act like that very often or they wind up dead in a hurray!

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