#655006 - 03/28/08 11:19 AM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: ADC]
|
trapperkeck
trapper
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 404
Loc: Crofton, NE
|
No offense folks, but all this laminating, 4-coiling, base-plating is an awflul lot of extra work and $$$ to go through for very little, if any, benefit. I have been using stock Bridger and Sleepy Creek traps for yotes for years and have had very few misses or pullouts, even on non-target species. I caught my first two cats this year in stock Bridger #3s and there was negligable foot damage and one of them may have been in the trap for a couple of days (had a blizzard and could not get out to check). Now, admittedly, you will get some amount of foot damage on coon and fox, but with a 24 hour check, it really doesn't pay to go through all teh hupla!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655135 - 03/28/08 12:49 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: trapperkeck]
|
Judd Brooks
trapper
Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 345
Loc: Montana
|
A lot has been said about spring strength and surface area being a significant factor in holding ability with laminated traps. I think that is something that may make sense in theory but not necessarily in practicality. My personal opinion is that if you ran 50 unlaminated traps with good springs and 50 laminated traps of the same make with the same good springs you would not be able to prove any additional pullouts due to the lamination. The reason being that traps with good springs will have ENOUGH power regardless of the jaw configuration. As long as there is adequate power to get the trap out of the bed and allow the levers to lock up high, any pullouts will likely be the result of something else (pan tension, obstructions, etc.) As far as the lams holding better on a toe catch...maybe. A toe catch is a poor catch (we all get them sometimes)and in my opinion you are always going to win and lose some of those regardless of configuration. I have a few toes to prove that. I do my mods myself so cost isn't much of a factor (my time isn't worth much) and as stated above, I think it is easier on the animal (especially on a 48 hour check like I run) and it is good PR which is worth more than a couple bucks a trap these days.
BTW, most of my traps are laminated only. I do not like heavy baseplates and I rarely four coil. I don't even run many offsets. If I do baseplate anything it is with smooth rod. Holding has never been an issue for me...getting them to step on the pan is another story 
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655225 - 03/28/08 01:55 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: Judd Brooks]
|
lrjakes
trapper
Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 1340
Loc: MD 36 years old
|
Depends on definition of good springs Judd.
I know I have had 1.75s with what i would consider adequate spring strength show noticeable slowing after addin lams.
But with you being in MT, i would imagine you are starting out with a larger and stouter model trap to begin with.
_________________________
 Trampas Para Ratas
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655299 - 03/28/08 02:50 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: lrjakes]
|
possum5676
trapper
Registered: 01/02/07
Posts: 936
Loc: kansas
|
In talking with a couple of western fellows that trapped coyotes a great deal before the excellent coilspring traps we have today and the lamination craze said the main reason they started doing it was to hold summer coyotes on the damage line for extended periods, the extra springs were to power up the jaws and prevent toe catches in baked clay mud common after summer rains, one of them said if newhouse traps would have continued to be available and affordable he would never have done anything other than offset the jaws a bit on the no.4 newhouse, another said if he could have afforded mj600 traps in the needed quanities he would never have laminated at all, but the thin jawed stock coilsprings just cut to much on extened checks so he went to laminate jaws to keep them there, charlie dobbins stated he only laminated his traps after finding the 4 coil kits caused to much cutting, preferring conners springs as they backed off when the trap was in the closed position or in the case of the stronger springs laminate, center swivel works great on larger traps for me but on smaller traps i prefer them hooked to the end frame and a double swivel mid chain, stake one down and pretend you are the animal and there is no more binding than centered if the mid chain swivel is working and the chain is at least a foot long, the binding is the same whether it is the trap at a bit of an angle or the levers rotateing over and over on the ground, i run both laminated and not and can tell very little difference except for a bit of cutting as long as the check is early morning. one of the biggest benefits from all the crap we weld on our traps as far as the animals are concerned is it makes them much heavier, cutting down on jumping, and wearing them down so they rest, there is almost always visible difference in coyotes on approach and wear in the catch circle if heavy traps are used, bbt traps have them so high, so solid, and so weighed down that most coyotes just plain give up and lay down, and i know of no trap in coilspring that sized with more power and thicker smoother jaws than that one.
Edited by possum5676 (03/28/08 02:54 PM)
_________________________
none
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655368 - 03/28/08 03:36 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: possum5676]
|
MChewk
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 951
Loc: Northern Illinois
|
Good post Possum...longer checks and animal comfort...and not having to pick up all those pieces (older model traps) are good reasons to laminate.
I would add that extended chains to 18 inches as said by Mr. O'G and others has proven best for me.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655460 - 03/28/08 04:28 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: MChewk]
|
The Beav
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 779
Loc: Wisconsin
|
Most summer caught ADC coyotes on extended checks melt down before the traps are even checked. So much for animal comfort. And we all know It happens just that way.
What i have done on most of my dry land canine and cat traps Is to weld a large chain link flat to the bottom of the trap frame. This link sticks out about 1/2" past the end of the frame. Here's where I connect my first J hook and swivel. I get no binding and very little swivel fouling with this hook up. If I wasn't live market trapping I wouldn't have any traps laminated.
If fact some of my best traps are the old #2 montys no need for any mods on those traps and are very foot friendly with those heavy rounded jaws.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655947 - 03/28/08 08:51 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: ADC]
|
beaverguy
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 211
Loc: michigan
|
Jeepers>>> With all these mods done to traps to hold animals, it makes me wonder what if anything the poor trapper caught 50 years ago.. I can't see how they held animals without these modified traps?? I'm not sure but I think most used Longspring traps even!!! My>My> I wonder how they ever did it !!!???
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655950 - 03/28/08 08:53 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: lrjakes]
|
ADC
trapper
Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 4445
Loc: Iowa
|
Good idea LR! I have had some #3 victors with those bases. Saw JC Connors sells them too.
~ADC~
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655961 - 03/28/08 08:58 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: ADC]
|
Blak coyote
trapper
Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 1613
Loc: N.e.WI.
|
That is a good setup lr. I've run them on a bunch of 1,75NW's once.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#655980 - 03/28/08 09:10 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: Blak coyote]
|
beaverguy
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 211
Loc: michigan
|
blak coyote,
I Know guys that were trapping Coyote when O Gorman was just a twinkle in his fathers eye. ( before he was born ) These guys used #4 longsprings only. They trapped for a living and lived well. One gentlemen I know caught 137 Coyotes for bounty in one year and an untold number of Bobcat, Fox, and yes even Wolves. These were all caught in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan. If they lost any animals, which I'm sure they did. It wasn't because of not having modified traps.. No-one bats 100% in this game.. JMO
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#656002 - 03/28/08 09:34 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: beaverguy]
|
Blak coyote
trapper
Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 1613
Loc: N.e.WI.
|
If they lost any animals, which I'm sure they did. It wasn't because of not having modified traps.. No-one bats 100% in this game.. JMO
If all they were using was #4 dbls I'd bet lack of lams cause loss atleast on fox. I may not have been around that long,but long enough to know what a trap can do. And your right no one bats 100% but there are things you can do to get it close and mods are just part of the equation.Why do you think traps like the MB750 or CDR came out,trappers were looking for a better performing trap.
I know alot of trappers are set in there ways especially when it comes to traps or mods. Call it PC or whatever but many who went to mods have done so because they've seen improvement in function and durability. Like I've mentioned earlier, I've seen many post on here about trap failures. What I don't understand is,if a trapper is going to take the time and money to set a trap,why would he use a trap that may not hold an animal. I mean if a trapper is trapping for fox using 1,5's and theres a possibility of catching a coyote,why would you set a trap a coyote will often times get out of or completely destroy. I mean if your going to do it,do it right the first time. I didn't have internet when learning through the years and learned alot the hard way. Maybe I just have bad luck with coyotes in years past trashing un modified 1.75's or coon leaving me toes in 1,5 Blake and lams. What ever the reason,now days I have less problems. I can reset a trap after a catch without having to bend something back into shape or replacing it with a new trap maintenance. All I know is what it was like using just stock compared to now,and I will not set a stock trap anymore. If others want to learn the hard way sobiet,sometimes that's the best teacher.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#656010 - 03/28/08 09:36 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: beaverguy]
|
lrjakes
trapper
Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 1340
Loc: MD 36 years old
|
I have seen the offset bases, but i havent seen the "square" ring to allow the swivel to clear the base.
And i have seen the "lay-flat" square pieces but they were mounted in the center.
Edited by lrjakes (03/28/08 09:38 PM)
_________________________
Trampas Para Ratas
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#656016 - 03/28/08 09:39 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: lrjakes]
|
Blak coyote
trapper
Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 1613
Loc: N.e.WI.
|
The round ones by JC lets the rivet/swivel clear the base to the side.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#656034 - 03/28/08 09:52 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: lrjakes]
|
lrjakes
trapper
Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 1340
Loc: MD 36 years old
|
I got into this because sometimes i think we make the newbies feel that if you dont have the tricked out expensive trap you will miss most animals.
Truth is the mods do help, but not enough where i wouldnt set an unmodified trap of the correct size.
And if I were in a position where i only had x amount of money for traps, I would buy more of the less expensive brands and just tune them.
BUT, over here in the east especially, animal welfare should be a concern so if someone does have the resources, I would definitely recommend laminations.
Lots of variables to consider.
_________________________
Trampas Para Ratas
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#656042 - 03/28/08 09:57 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: lrjakes]
|
lrjakes
trapper
Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 1340
Loc: MD 36 years old
|
thanks Blak!1
i have been meaning to get some of his elongated O rings to accommodate 2 rebar stakes anyway.
I am actually surprised that no (or at least that I know of) stock traps come with em.
Edited by lrjakes (03/31/08 10:23 AM)
_________________________
Trampas Para Ratas
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#656058 - 03/28/08 10:32 PM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: lrjakes]
|
Joel
trapper
Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 112
Loc: nevada
|
A 3n longspring is still my favorite coyote trap.
And darn close to my favorite cat trap.
The #3 longs with stamped jaws were harder than helll on coyotes but the cast jaws treat them pretty well.
I never used coilsprings when I was trapping coyotes hard in the 70's and early 80's.
I've tried a few times since then but I just can't get them to snug into place like a 3n does.
Joel
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#659496 - 03/31/08 09:48 AM
Re: debate jaw laminations
[Re: ADC]
|
DLM
trapper
Registered: 12/26/06
Posts: 607
Loc: Maine
|
I don't think you need it on a trap unless your after coyotes, wolves, or wolverines. These animals will bite apart some traps on ocassion. Lamination of the jaws and baseplates eliminate that.
Over the years I've settled on a fully modified #2 Bridger for my coyote trapping (and thats all I use now for cats also). Our coyotes have wolf blood in them (proven by DNA test) and they are a bigger stronger jawed critter than alot of the coyotes in other areas.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
|
[/img] 
