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#844785 - 08/20/08 10:25 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: GritGuy]
Wackyquacker Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Corrales NM
Originally Posted By: GritGuy
, your not dealing with Professors here.


Speak for yourself Grit.
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#844848 - 08/20/08 11:03 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: Wackyquacker]
GritGuy Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5200
Loc: Magna, Utah
Animals can be rubbed when prime, sure, very easily, fur can be damaged in many ways when its prime.

Singed fur is a product of heat making the fur curl, meaning the fur hairs got to hot and actually curl, theres no fix for this and your pelt will be down graded for it. It's not generally a sign of un-prime fur, thats really a misnomer for water bearers, another reason for people to be educated about thier targets.

Some animals can start rubbing while still prime, depending on thier conditions and habitat, many things besides the end of the priming cycle can cause them to rub. Parasites, bad health, lots of stuff in the fur causing problems with the skin, mating, just normal actions of the animals in the field can cause rubbing.

Lots of canines here look pretty bad in late winter due to laying on ice and snow then jumping up and getting fur pulled off them, makes them look like they are half gone, LOL, you peel them down and nothing is amiss on the inside.

I've shot coyotes in March way past prime here for most and some have been prefect with no sign of any prime ending.

However for most general layman's use when animals are visibily seen as being rubbed usually they are well past prime.
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Wacky, you never was in here and now you show up for gradunation LOL!!
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#844902 - 08/21/08 12:11 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: GritGuy]
Wackyquacker Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Corrales NM
Originally Posted By: GritGuy

Wacky, you never was in here and now you show up for gradunation LOL!!


I couldn't hep myself what with photosynthesis, altitude, cold and the human genome. This isn't rocket science; its simply gene expression. The interesting question is; is it at the transcriptional or postranscriptional level. I think we can role out translational control but I suppose that too could be involved.
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#844904 - 08/21/08 12:15 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: Wackyquacker]
GritGuy Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5200
Loc: Magna, Utah
Your to involved LOL!!
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#845092 - 08/21/08 11:48 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: johnsd16]
DFronek Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 2332
Loc: N.e.WI. 45
Originally Posted By: johnsd16


But you have supplied an answer to my question, the coyote would not freeze to death. Interesting.


Of course they won't.I've seen coyotes up here in the middle of Jan. thru till spring with no hair on em' except for their head due to mange.They survive by getting lucky enough to find a dead carcass or 2 and shelter.If they have any fur on them they'll manage to survive.

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#846991 - 08/22/08 02:28 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: DFronek]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2630
Loc: Northern Illinois
Good post...thought provoking. Something else to consider....we know guys in Texas and New Mexico hammer the coyotes hard year after year and still more return. Therorize about how many Mexican coyotes make it into the east coast, or northern midwest every year. Those coyotes adapt pretty well in a few years. I wish we could get the Mexican Govt to tag say a thousand coyotes and see where they end up in a few years...might be mind boggling.

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#847030 - 08/22/08 02:44 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: DFronek]
tmrschessie Offline



Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7559
Loc: South Central Nebraska age 64
Understanding it is the amount of sunlight, but why then do the older dryland coon prime up before the younger ones? Does it have anything to do with say decreased vision??? Just not sure why...Tom

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#850360 - 08/24/08 09:58 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: tmrschessie]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14800
Loc: McGrath, AK
It could be that if the young coons are still with a lactating momma coon, their endocrine system is somewhat altered or not yet fully developed.

The pineal gland doesn't just affect priming in critters. It is also the suspected culpit behind cabin fever, Seasonal Affective Disorder, sex drive, alignment of estrus cycles in women living in groups. One interesting thing about the latter is that each woman in the group will synchronize with the dominant (or Alpha if you must) woman in the group.


I'm gonna throw out some things that some may not agree with. That's fine but here are some facts.

If you take a mink from Minnesota and a mink from Mississippi, and count the hair follicles on any spot, ( say between his shoulder blades) they will be the same number per square inch. This is a given in the scientific literature. These critters cannot grow more hair follicles. What will be different is the diameter of the hairs, both guard and under fur. The larger the diameter, the more lush the fur appears. This is mostly an issue of genetics but diet can certainly play a role. So lets not confuse pelt priming (skin side) with the quality of the fur. Two different things here.

The Texas coyote taken to Minnesota. Good chance he might die without sufficient caloric intake. He will prime right along with the native Minnesota yotes but HIS hair will never be as dense because his genes will not allow him to develop hair diameters like the minnesota yotes.

In an isolated population of Texas yotes in Minnesota this situation could last for many generations. But if you dilute that population with native MN yotes, the offspring will have different hair quality than their parents. Blak Coyote touched on this subject.

Trapping at altitude: Some one asked why critters prime sooner at higher altitudes. Where is the evidence that they do ? There may be a lot of old timers who believed that was true, but there are still folks who believe that cross fox are a product of a red/gray mating. Folklore is tough to overcome.

Think about sunrise. Where is the first place that sunlight hits as the orb crosses the horizon? The tops of the mountains. Where is the last place the sunlight hits after going below the horizon? The tops of mountains. Logically then, critters at the tops could receive more sunlight than critters in the valleys. By extension, the lowland critters could prime sooner. Not saying they do, just pointing out the potential and the contradiction. The uncontrollable variable is that we don't know where the animal lived just before he was harvested. He may have spent his entire life in a creek bottom and decided to hike up a hill one day. He finds your dirthole and bingo. Prime critter at the top of the mountain.

What about beaver under ice? Remember that beaver's eyes have more rods than cones. Consequently, they can see better in the dark because more of the light that is available can enter their eyes. Remember we are talking about UV (ultra violet) light, not infra red. There can be lots of light below the ice even if it has snow on it. It may not look that way to our eyes because we can't see in that part of the spectrum.

I have urged people in the past and will here again to get a copy of Wild Furbearer Management in North America. It is the bible where questions of this nature are concerned. It's out of print but available and expensive.

I'm no expert on this stuff but all the info is out there for the reading.

Sorry for the feature length posting.
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#850411 - 08/24/08 10:28 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: white17]
don Wolf Offline


Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 5866
Loc: evansville Indiana age67
White I will read your feature length posting anytime you typ it.

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#850415 - 08/24/08 10:40 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: don Wolf]
johnsd16 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1893
Loc: MN-30
Is there ANY tiny shred of a chance that animals at a higher altitude prime earlier because they are exposed to a very similar photoperiod to animals at a nearby lower elevation but are in a colder environment? Is it true that it is colder at the top of a mountain than at the base?
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#850525 - 08/25/08 01:57 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: johnsd16]
tmrschessie Offline



Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7559
Loc: South Central Nebraska age 64
White17, thank you. That makes perfect sense. I agree with Don Wolf, I will read your posts anytime. Thank You. Tom

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#850633 - 08/25/08 07:22 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: johnsd16]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14800
Loc: McGrath, AK
Originally Posted By: johnsd16
Is there ANY tiny shred of a chance that animals at a higher altitude prime earlier because they are exposed to a very similar photoperiod to animals at a nearby lower elevation but are in a colder environment? Is it true that it is colder at the top of a mountain than at the base?



In the atmosphere there is a general decrease in temperature with increase in altitude. This is known as the adiabatic lapse rate and is USUALLY 3.5 degrees F per thousand feet of altitude. It can be as high as 5 degrees depending on the relative humidity in the air mass.

BUT generally as the weather turns colder an inversion will occur where temperatures will increase with altitude. In this example we are talking about the areas we can access. My trapline is in hilly country. It may be minus twenty on the river but zero or warmer on the adjacent hills. Animals will oftentimes migrate upslope to find warmer conditions and come back down slope when the weather warms at the lower elevations.

So the short answer to your question is no. They won't prime any sooner because of temperature. Their hair may be different because of genetics and POSSIBLY wind. I have no empirical evidence but furs that I have looked at from windy areas (aleutian islands) are coarse and fluffier looking. They don't feel as soft though. I suspect there may be a connection. Can't substantiate it yet though.

Another example: The coyotes from the area between Dillon and Bozeman, Montana are some of the best in the world. This is not really cold country but the wind blows constantly. Is there a connection? I don't know, but the anecdotal evidence makes me suspect that there is.

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#850638 - 08/25/08 07:31 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: DFronek]
conibear1 Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/05/07
Posts: 702
Loc: Heart of Minnesota
It is the sunlight to their eyes.

If it was temperature, furbearers would have died out in the first year that stayed warm until the first real cold spell. Weather is not consistant from year to year, reduction of sunlight is.
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#850678 - 08/25/08 08:15 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: conibear1]
johnsd16 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1893
Loc: MN-30
So absolutely 110% no chance that it has any tiny role?
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#850729 - 08/25/08 09:08 AM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: johnsd16]
tmrschessie Offline



Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7559
Loc: South Central Nebraska age 64
Read white17's post....the thickness portion of northern furbearers...Tom

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#851126 - 08/25/08 03:08 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: tmrschessie]
johnsd16 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1893
Loc: MN-30
Originally Posted By: tmrschessie
Read white17's post....the thickness portion of northern furbearers...Tom


Oh, I read it. Did you?
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#851341 - 08/25/08 05:45 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: johnsd16]
GritGuy Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5200
Loc: Magna, Utah
Your just having a hard time with this ain't ya John, LOL

No temperature does have nothing to do with a pelts priming up!
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Sorry if my opinions or replies offend you, they are not meant to !

www.wasatchwild.com

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#851345 - 08/25/08 05:48 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: GritGuy]
johnsd16 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1893
Loc: MN-30
Originally Posted By: GritGuy
Your just having a hard time with this ain't ya John, LOL

No temperature does have nothing to do with a pelts priming up!


I'm not the one having a hard time with it. White17 is saying it POSSIBLY does, but either he won't outright say it or doesn't realize he's saying it.
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#851355 - 08/25/08 05:55 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: johnsd16]
GritGuy Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5200
Loc: Magna, Utah
Thats cause he evidently believes it may, I don't have any qualms about saying it don't !!
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Sorry if my opinions or replies offend you, they are not meant to !

www.wasatchwild.com

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#851435 - 08/25/08 06:40 PM Re: What makes a fur turn prime.... [Re: johnsd16]
Sullivan K Offline
"Keith"

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 2095
Loc: Northern Ohio ...
Originally Posted By: johnsd16


I'm not the one having a hard time with it.


Yes you are. It's prety easy to undertand. grin
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