Question for buyers or beaver sellers, we have our fur auction coming up this weekend. I’ve asked all that will to size sort their beaver and coon to help speed graders. I expect a thousand beaver, more, there. On people that have 50-60 of the same size is it better to run through in lots of ten or twenty instead of having 50 in a pile? Buyers like to look more carefully if there’s 50 laying there and ten can be glanced at quicker. Also, any need to separate fall and February beaver in this market? Thanks.

A pile of coon is quicker to look through than a pile of beaver.

If you're grading the pelts, it shouldn't matter how big or small the strings are . If you grade so there's a 100 similar grade and size pelts, put those together and run em through. Breaking em down to smaller strings is going to slow down your auction. Only break out unique hides(piebald, black, other) for the novelty buyers.

If the buyers don't trust your graders then you might want to break em up so they can look at em better. Our auction, which is also this weekend, the main buyers pretty much go off the grades except for maybe coyote and oddball colored hides.

Thanks,
I was wondering if the price per bundle made a difference with the buyers. 300 for ten or 3000 for a hundred. I know sale would go faster in big piles. I have six size bundles laid out on mine. Any difference in fall and Feb beaver?

February beaver will have more underfur. Even my SE Ohio end of December beaver are fairly thin on underfur to the BN point of the hide being see-through especially on the smaller sizes. About the only good thing about fall beaver is they won't be bit up as much or at least the bites from spring are well healed by then.

Price per bundle won't be an issue for the main buyers. Smaller guys might bulk at the big lots of they are going for decent money

I wouldn’t think that the beaver on your sale would be graded anything other than hatter. Might separate by size to make it go faster. And I could be all wrong, I frequently am.

Tie them in a bundle and put the weight on them. You will get more than if they're graded. NOT joking.

It's always an interesting question how to lot your fur on country sales. I first try to figure out who the buyers are and what they're looking for. For beaver if you have major collectors with deep pockets I say make those lots as big as you can. One seller with 100 big sized beaver is a plum those buyers don't want to miss out on. They may slightly raise their bid on that lot to keep a competitor from getting it.

On my two last sales I put all my XL and larger beaver in one lot. 92 beaver and 126 beaver. Both of those lots bought by the same big beaver buyer.

In other years where the crafters were the highest $$$ bidders I put my beaver up in lots of 10 according to size and quality.

Good luck to you guys!

wharton, do you think buyers trust us trappers to give a true accurate weight?

I think buyers know what an average beaver pelt weighs. Being that it's a hatter market I would just seperate by size.

I don't think many buyers are going to take a trappers word on grade, weight or size. They are going to look at the fur size it and grade it, or low ball to make sure they are covered.
.

.

My buyer most certainly does. I've been selling to him that way for 10 years. he's never even asked.

I asked a buyer at our OTC Prineville sale last Saturday if he could determine weights of beaver hides without a scale. He said heck no. He brought a scale with him to weigh beaver. I actually had thought about putting a tag on those beaver giving a weight but figured they would not trust it.

This is something that I don't get why buyers aren't pushing as much is that you need underfur to make felt. Early beaver don't have a lot of underfur. You can run you fingers through the fur and see your fingers through the skin. The semi heavy and heavy beaver have a lot more underfur than the classic "hatter beaver" in the south

Sniper, I think last year desperation had set in and just any beaver would do. I've been expecting the buyers to become a little more sophisticated in their approach this season but perhaps the fact that we're not seeing a huge increase in this year's beaver harvest may lead to desperation once again become the driving force.

You cant "weigh" the leather on a beaver pelt without a scale(dont know why you would care),but a half arsed grader can weigh the fur with his hand easily sorting out HVY,SEMI and LT.

The reason the collectors care is the felters have signed contracts with them based on poundage, not sizes or grades.

They wont know regardless until it is separated from the leather.
Leather weights can vary greatly on beaver of the same size.
You would get a much better assessment by weighing the fur with your hand
Watch the vid NAFA put out on Phil Patterson weighing beaver.
He can tell in a few seconds how much fur in on the pelt.
feels for density and looks at the length same time.Also can tell how much coverage.He points out what is wanted by the felters.and what is no good.

I'll be curious to see how FHA handled the beaver grading this time around, to see if there are any changes. But as long as there are contracts solely based on weight the felt trade will be getting screwed on thick leather, poorly fleshed goods that probably aren't coming out of Canada.

Do the felters need to know how much fur every beaver has if they are buying them all as lights? Any semi's and heavies are just a bonus. It is not really that complex.

Good point MJM, I really hadn't thought of it quite that way.

Its a bonus alright but not for the trapper.

It is for me!

Its why you can never realize the true value of good fur outside the auction.
If poor fur is intersorted with good fur it all sells low.
Its why trappers started their own auction house to begin with.

South it might be a bonus.

As long as this hatter market continues to generate the primary beaver demand...then northern heavy beavers will seem to be very undervalued.

But, when the hatter drops....even those northern heavies will be de-valued.

beaverpeeler ? did the buyer who bought your beaver weight them?

I didn't have the luxury of watching all of the grading but heard tell that two buyers brought scales. Neither one of the two bought my beaver. George Kortum bought my beaver.

If these collectors have contracts with the filters based on poundage, they should be heading south and loading up on the thick skinned buggers.



I’m still trying to track down that video. Might email FHA. There’s a fella out east that has one in VHS but can’t find it.

Was it part of the WFSC video?

Yes.

So the guy that bought your beaver bid higher than the two that weighed them?

Start at about the 16 minute mark

this might be it too

That is a good one but neither one is the one I am referring too
It is the one where Phil Patterson talks about the hatter beaver.and what the felters require.

How about this one, start at 8:21

As you know George is the largest fur buyer in the west. I knew he would be the one who bought your beaver. George does not need a scale. Probably one of the most experienced buyers to ever live. Anyone using a scale is an amature.

Thats the one-
Thanks sniper.
There are still lots of guys that think flat beaver are good for felt,lol.

Boco,
It sure don't matter what I think about flat beaver. It's what the buyer thinks. Also, I won't ask GFW if he's seen that video.

Why have southern beavers ALWAYS been referred to as hatters?

Maybe that's all these beavers are really good for.

They can be used as in-tact hats since they arent quite as heavy. Kinda like when they used to call southern coon, "coat coon".

Alot of shrugged shoulders about what the felters were buying last season. I still say desperation because they couldn't fill their orders....here's a $40 beaver from the 2nd FHA sale last year:

Watch the clip BP,Phil said in the educational video that damages like that (holes and bites) are irrelevant for felters-as long as the pelts have HVY or SEMI quality.
There is another section Sniper posted above that explains why the underfur of the beaver makes strong felt.
But I guess there are guys on here that know more than a long time respected fur broker and grader like the late Phil Patterson

Back when we had a viable fur market there where 50plus coat manufacturs in Montreal,

Today,would be luckey to have 5 left now.

When we had that manufactoring base most of the heavy shear-able beaver when to that market.

In todays fur world only a few thousand are needed for that use now.

Back then the hatters had to take the third section goods and the flatter type beaver for their needs.

Today the hatter market is 95% of what all beaver are used for.

Colour, bite marks don;t matter for the hatter trade.

Underfur is what is needed and now they can buy the best beaver for this use.

Last season was the perfect example of no supply and a big jump in demand.

The demand continues the question will be when we reach the supply as most trappers are a year behind the market trends.

The trappers that believe summer skins with no underfur are suitable should process and ship to auctions or fully disclose to local buyers if selling green then report back here on price differential.

Why? Because that is all they are good for. Don't kid yourself our "hatters" are worth more.

They are only worth more if the buyers are paying more. Yes they may have heavier under fur and be better suited for the felt process, but if you do not get a premium for them in the hatter market are they really worth more?
From what gibb is saying even some shearing beaver are going into the hatter market. That is a sad thought to me.

Sad but true. If the hatter buyers can pick up heavy beaver at similar prices that is a bonus for them. They are buying all they need to get the underfur they need. One way to look at it is if the low grade beaver they are taking off the market are providing less underfur it means they have to buy a lot more of them

Must be making a lot of those type hats because many thousands of these hatter beaver are being bought.

I did watch the clip. The beaver I showed not only was holier than thou but pretty flat to boot. Hard to see that from just leather side pic but look at the rim.

Who's kidding who here? I got $40 tops for skint and frozen last March...avgs in mid 20s. May not be that high this March. If your hatters are worth more then why are ya'll not commanding a price that is much higher than a flat Georgia beaver?

You northern beaver trappers do realize that us southern beaver trappers do not control the beaver market and we cannot help that you're not being paid what you think your heavy beaver are worth, correct?

Nobody is stating they know more than the guy on the video. But, we're getting comparable prices for these pelts (flats/damaged) as many are for the prime heavies.....all things considered, such as commissions, shipping costs, prep time costs, etc factored in.

Swamp, please just help everybody out by burning those southern goods...you're going to kill the market!

Lol

Is it just me or is there a sense of aggravation (or maybe confusion) as to why flat beavers are selling almost as good as those northern fur balls?

I have about 90 pelts. If I knew it would help out those confused northern beaver trappers...I'd burn em......not!

Heavy beaver sell for more than semis and semis sell for more than flats,
It depends on who you sell to.
Of course if you sel to someone who doesnt grade your fur there will be no difference.
But once they get graded out by the middle man then he will be the beneficiary not the trapper.
A fight in the auction room for one sale that drove up the price of lesser beaver due to high demand and lack of supply doesnt mean anything.
Same as when the dumb chinamen were paying the same for sec3 otter as they were for sec 1 about 15 year ago for a sale or two.
It is an expensive lesson but they learn once the goods go thru the pipeline and they are schooled.

I will say that I feel when the bottom falls out of the hatter beaver market, it will be as hard as any drop we have ever seen. When heavies are going to the hatter market there is only one market. It was the same thing with the coyote market. We would have a half a dozen or more buyers and they were all selling to the same guy. Some directly and some indirectly. It does not work for a buyer to bid against himself.

I believe it will go up for a while yet before the inevitable drop.
Anyone who has been in the game a while,and has studied the history of the fur trade over its 400 year exixtence in North America knows the nature of the beast.
The full benefit of the drastic shrinkage in the ranch fur market has not yet fully materialized in the wild fur market but soon will be.
Once some other negative geo political obstacles are mitigated a further benefit will be realized.

No, it's not you. These northern guys are down right butt hurt that southern fur is bringing comparable prices to their vastly superior northern fur.

You are dreaming TW,or not selling to the right place.
Early northern beaver have the same underfur as prime southern beaver.
neither are the best for the felters
Same as western beaver which are mushy and dont make the best felt.
Northern heavys make the best felt why they sell for higher price.Northern trappers havent produced a lot of winter beaver for quite a while now,but I bet that will change after the upcoming auction in North Bay.

You may be right. But, in the mean time will you quit arguing with us so called southerners who are enjoying HIGH times?

Noticed Mississippi sale beaver averaged 26.00 but not near the amount of them there I would have expected. Not as big a catch at the sale innArkansas and Missouri as I would have thought either.

I sure hope you don't tell the buyers of southern beavers any of this^^^^^

Lol

Also, glad you don't sign their fur buying checks.

I think if a guy from the south is getting close to the same for his beaver as a guy from the north, with out a doubt he is selling in the right place. Should he sell them where he gets less?
Boco have you ever sold fur over the counter? Does Canada have fur buyers that buy from trappers other than people buying for Gorney the last few years?

Last spring's higher southern beaver prices was likely due to the sudden realization of the demand outweighing supply. Hence, southern beaver were bought green at near northern finished beaver prices.

I have noticed a slight downward adjustment in those average prices this winter by reading the posts made by folks here on Tman.

If southern beaver maintain even $20avgs (green/frozen pelts) I'll be surprised. The demand appears to still be there, but a slight downward adjustment has already occurred.

Swamp Wolf I agree with what you said about the price for southern beaver going up. But will the northern beaver go up, stay the same or follow the southern beaver and start down?

How do the hatter southern beaver prices compare to the fur boom in late70s/early 80s?

I havent sold a good beaver for under 70cad (lg and up) in quite a few years,likely 7 or 8 years at least.
I just send my fall beaver to the auction.The others I have repeat buyers for them.

From what I was told the demand for southern beaver is expected to remain for next season. Guess we'll see.

The majority of the beaver have been going to the hatter trade for a few years already, what has changed is the supply.

Last year was the perfect storm in the beaver market.

Trappers are always a year behind the market, it will be interesting to see how the prices will adjust when the trappers increase the supply.

Between Ontario, Quebec and Minnesota if the guys go at it could easily double what Fha is offering on this sale.

Talking with a bunch of Ontario guys they are all going for spring beaver which has not happened in many years.

So you send the bottom of the barrel to the auction house. Makes sense to me. I take it craft buyers? Are they tanned? Do they need a fur buyers license? I guess the trinket trade is a good place to sell small numbers.

I sell all I catch from wolves to weasels not just beaver,I sell good fall beaver to the auction not low grade.Although last year when the price went crazy I shipped about 50 small beaver that I had on hand from a couple seasons harvest that I was planning on tanning myself.Couldnt pass up on the spike at the auction.
I sell the winter beaver tanned to established furriers most up on the coast,they use more than I could ever supply.
Wolves demand outstips the supply as do ermine.Wolves sell out at 750 and weasels at 25.
I send the odd wolf to the auction.havent shipped an ermine to the auction for more than 10 years at least.
Marten go to auction.Not much demand by the local furriers for marten.They all want winter beaver and pay for them.
Seems like everyone wants tanned wolves.Almost all tanned weasels sell in bulk to middlemen who resell for profit.

If you listen to what the auction tells you,you know what to ship without having anything sit there unsold.
It would be retarded to send low grade stuff to the auction that they could not sell,lol.
Its retarded to even trap low grade fur on purpose let alone ship it to auction.

If buyers start to pay a premium for HVY winter beaver like they used to,those beaver will show up again at the auction,Until then trappers here will continue to ship fall and spring open water beaver to the auction since that is the kind (price point)that the auction buyers want to pay for.

I think maybe I under stand more than you think I do. I worked buying and selling fur and the trinket trade is not the fur trade even if it is fur. We dealt in thousands of beaver a year. I have spent days bailing them to ship. I would think the coaster furriers could get their beaver cheaper at FHA. Maybe all the add on charges are a show stopper. You always brag the auction house up like that is your main outlet. Come to find out all they get the lesser quality fur. Good strategy.

No the auction gets my good fur,They dont want low grade fur because that is difficult for them to sell,so why would one ship it there.But some still do.
The fur market is much more than just raw fur.I supply my markets with what they want.Help them and it helps you.
Most trappers dont have a clue how to market their fur.
As a trapper(Fur Manager),tanner and furrier myself I guess I have a better grasp of the industry than most.
The auction is by far the best way to market raw fur.But there is much more to the fur market than the raw fur market regardless of what you think or what you call it.
And we are not even talking about manufacture and retail which is where the real money(profit) is in the fur trade.
Pushing junk into the market at any point is bad for buisness if you are in it for the long run.

So your fall and open water beaver are better than your under the ice beaver? I can not say I ever saw that in the lower 48 or Alaska. So if you better beaver go to FHA how do they average out compared to the one going to the crafters? I know it is going to be less since they are not tanned. Why not ship them all to the crafters for $70+?

Better for what?I never said one was better than the other.Different use.
My customers ask and pay a premium for winter HVY beaver.You have to meet your market.
The buyers at the auction pay good money for fall Semis.Fall semis dont work for trim which is what my tanned beaver customers use them mostly for.
Myself I retain some medium and large medium fall(silky) hvys for making fur hats and mitts
One year I got a top lot for beaver at NAFA 300 bucks-It was a xxl black fall(silky) hvy,not a winter hvy-so which is so called "better".

Shipping lower grades to auction works well when there is a strong fur market. Someone will pay decent money for lower grades, not trash. Selling high grades face to face provides that buyer with exactly what was requested and no risk. A lot of risk at auction with no guaranteed sale price. Sell high grades to contracted buyer and lower grades at auction, everyone wins. I’ve done this with section 3 beaver and slight grade muskrats. I believe I recall this model worked very well in 2012-2014.

So fall beaver are as good a quality as under the ice beaver? They don't make what I call a heavy. So you get fall heavies? So you are selecting heavy clean beaver to sell to the crafters, and what is left over you ship to FHA unless small and silky. Semis are semis and heavies are heavies I got that, and they don't always go to the same place. NAFA is dead and gone. The top lot beaver has little to do with the fur market. It is great you got it. But it is just an advertising stunt.
Maybe those southern beaver would grade semi at FHA in this market and that is why they are doing so well on them. Semi's are not all created equal as far as under fur goes. There is a line where they are flat or heavies. But maybe FHA widened that semi swath.

Like I said,you have to meet your market.I sell damaged pelts to the sewers.Not a big deal to them for trim.Prime is more important.They want the guard hair to stand up.
Grade does not always determine which is "better" (to use your terminolgy) in the fur trade.
Do you remember when september fox were selling "better"as you say than winter hvys?Because of the colour and use?
As far as beaver grades there are fall hvys and winter hvys same with semis.fall semis and winter semis.The density can be there but not the length for a longer shear,if that is what a buyer wants.
It is terminology that defines the characteristics of a pelt.Whether they are broken out or not depends on the market.and the collection.

As far as southern and northern,you are not talking grades you are referring to sections.Some southern beaver do section in with northerns.
Paul Dobbins had some northern section beaver at NAFA years ago.he explained they were transplants from the north.Pretty much debunks the BS about fur sections being determined by shippers address.

Shipping top quality fur to auction in strong fur markets will realize phenomenal prices.Timing is extremely important.
Like I said meet the market.

It takes time and work to develop alternative markets.Not everyone can do that for various reasons.

Hitting the timing right at auction on large volumes is like winning the lottery. Good way to lose your rear end when buying large volumes. Also, when contracted with a buyer then the fur has a home up front. No risk of market reduction when an agreement is made and funds are fronted. Markets change and generally the raw fur market is weak at this time. The auction can be a good outlet for trapper lots, and it’s good FHA is still in business.

I talked to one buyer that would prefer seeing lots of ten like beaver on the table than 50 in a pile.

You have typed pages of stuff saying southern beaver should not be mixed in with northern beaver. Now they do and it's fine? Let me guess you were joking and know they fit together. You seem to flip flop a lot on what you are saying.


He sounds like a crafter, or is buying for one. I would guess he does not have enough money to bid on a lot of 50 or no out let for a larger lot of mixed beaver. Is it worth your and everyone else time to make small lots and drag the sale on for how many extra hours? Is he going to buy five lots of ten and not buy any lots of fifty if there are no 10 beaver lots? There will be some small lots he can bid on. Not everyone there will have 50 beaver.

MJM,you are either confused or dont know the difference between section and grade.

Isn't section sometimes determined by grade? NAFA seemed to do that often with my southern pelts over the years.

And grade determined by quality of the fur?

Fur is sectioned before grading,east west north south etc by character of the pelt.
I think you are referring to the damage sections-sec 1 vs sec 3.
Often bad damaged fur are all lumped together.

If you want to know about fur grading and sectioning there is comprehensive chapter on it in your WFMC bible.
I aint going to type pages trying to explain it on here.

Where is this "bible" you speak of?

Chapter 53


I thought all professional trappers had the WFMC.
You can likely find one for sale on the internut somewhere.

Where do I get a copy of that "bible"?

Might find one on the internut for sale.

whats the acronym stand for? I can only find references to that in canadian forums but its not a good one.

This is an interesting document I found:

https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/aac-aafc/agrhist/A73-1362-1975-eng.pdf

Wild Furbearer Management and Conservation in North America.
Some of the sections on biology and marketing are being updated.

Amazon has one copy left for $280 US funds

Why not BOCO ?

You've made 44,956 posts & typed untold thousands of pages
trolling, mudraking, flaming, and turd stirring during your trapperman career.

What's a few more pages of typing to a trapper of your stature ?

w

Dont worry walleyed I will still keep contributing,a few lines at a time,heading for 50 000.Couldnt have done it writing chapters.I have a responsibility to keep all my followers on here engaged.
Hows the toe doing?

Just don't get mad and leave Tman....like some others have.

You and I are about as far apart as any Eastern trappers (miles-wise and terrain-wise.)

I enjoy the Canadian trapper's aspect and pics.

My toe is almost healed.

Might be putting it in a wader boot tomorrow !!!

Maybe try to get out to catch a beaver.

w

Your are the one that said that some of the southern beaver beaver fit in the northern section after crying that the southern guys were getting to much money for their beaver. I know the difference between sections and grade and am sure I have graded more fur then you have. You ever move fur to be graded with a fork lift? Grades and sections change all the time. Does your bible talk about that? What makes the grade or section today may not next week. When demand drops the grade tightens, trying to put some value in the lot. When it is booming they will throw anything in because it will sell. The auctions are famous for it. When the grade tightens so do the sections. There is not a set weight for a heavy beaver. What will make a heavy today will be a semi down the road.

To me it’s pretty simple. You live where you live and you catch what you got. Everyone that traps does that mostly. If I were down south I’d be hammering beaver right now as hard as I could. Everyone everywhere else can trap, not trap, market or not market their catch. A man can only do what he can do.

Don’t get weight confused with weight and section with section. Rookie mistake….lol
$280US is a decent price for a used copy of the big book. I paid $325CAD shipped…..it’s heavy. There was one sold at a local auction for 50 bucks. Missed out on that one.

Shakey please don't throw kilo's and pounds into it, then it would be a mess for sure. It is bad enough you bring up US and CAD

But Shakey that was only a few hours of overtime. That auction was at McSherry's and there will be a few more fur books coming up with a estate sale of a fur managers stuff.
MJM note that. Boco has never spent a working hour on the grading floor so saying PITCH FORK GRADING he has no clue.

But really that grading does work on coyotes because the holes are hard to find in the pelt.

Now does that fork have 3 tines or 5 or is it the Royals Royce type with 12 been awhile since I was on the floor.

Hogwash,the grades dont change the pelts are what they are.
What does change is the intersort that reflects market conditionswhen different grade,colours,sections,have the same value and no need to break them down,almost always low value fur.

You are the clueless one,I grade fur constantly It is a necessary skill when working with fur all the time.
As a tanner you see how defects weight etc affect the end product first hand.
You are confusing grading with sorting.

What changes all the time is the market base,

The grades remain the same but the market base reflects the demand.

What can or can not be pushed into a grade depends on how strong the market base aka demand is.

As a general rule the top grade sets the base with a 5% drop for every grade below it. Don.t include the fancy 10 skin show lot grade lot that is used as trapper bait.

A $100 base allows a normal drop per grade and a looser grade.

A weaker $50 base means things get cheap fast.and a tighter grade per lot

A poor $30 base means stuff will sit unsold and the grade will be really tight.

In todays world fine grading is much more difficult because the volume of skins is not there which translate into putting together skins you would possible put up on their own had you had the # numbers to do so.

In a hot market everything moves and the dance heats up.

When the demand changes everyone starts to scabble to unload the goods hoping not to be holding the lesser goods when the demand stops.

The recent coyote market is a good example, everyone was chasing Canada Goose until the goose stopped laying and the market collasped.

Lots of knockoff players bought lower quality goods until the demand for cheap knockoffs disappeared.

For awhile any coyote was a good coyote.

"For awhile any coyote was a good coyote."

I sure miss those days.

Judging by the quality of the best beaver at FHA today, I'd say a LOT of fur producers are sending marginal skins to the auction and selling the best, and the junk to buyers and crafters in the country.

The last receiving date was too early. I don't think trappers held their best fur back, those will be in the next load.

WyWolfer, are you looking on-line or did you make the trip?

Last receiving date was early. The best of the best we're just starting to get caught

Probably a fair amount of last spring's beaver hunt from the northern areas on the sale. May caught beaver wouldn't have made the 2nd sale deadline.

I’ve got a couple dozen in there from last spring.