In y'all opinions what would be some good loadings if I guy wanted to try and use a .410 for calling ?

Raccoons or Coyotes? For Coyotes I may go all the way to slugs. Coons I imagine a TSS type load would be really decent out to 30+ yards.

I wouldn't.

Done quite a bit of shooting with the 410. The problem with it is the same as any other shotshell to get best patterns you need lots of shot, to get lots of shot it needs to be small shot or the shell needs lots of capacity. The 410 lacks capacity for even the smallest of shot sizes.

My patterning for rabbit and squirrel repeatedly showed me that #6 will not pattern well, 7.5 would but lacked penetration past 30 yards.

If I absolutely had to I'd look to the buckshot 3 pellet load and keep distances under 15 yards max, 10 yards better.

I have yet to meet the slug load that can hold minute of pie plate much past 15.

TSS may improve on the performance I experienced but even then it would marginal at best.

410 typically would limit range for sure, but if your gun patterns buckshot or slugs well, you could do it. I wouldn’t try it without seeing what kind of pattern your gun shoots so that you will know what your max range will be, which won’t be very far.

410s are fun, but I wouldn’t predator hunt with anything smaller than 4s. I wouldn’t want to be shooting predators with bird shot

wait you can find 410

go shopping it would be easier and probably cheaper to buy a Maverick 88 12ga than buy 50 rounds of 410 good hunting loads

I was at Fleet looking for 410 for a co-worker while I was of course also looking for my own ammo in not 410

he inherited his dads 410 and wanted to take his son shooting.

Fleet who has a good ammo selection had 2 TSS loads 44 for 5 rounds of #9 turkey or 38 dollars for 5 rounds of #9 turkey loads

that was it

I did find him some 2 1/2 inch 7.5 shot 26 dollars for 25 rounds and I was lucky to find it for that price

IMO no matter what you stick in a 410 it’s not gonna be a “good” load for predator calling. Could you kill some with buckshot or a slug? Probably. Would it be anywhere even close to being as effective as like a hundred other options? No.

.410 copper disks will do it, but it certainly wouldn't be my choice and not over 15-20 yards, even that would be pushing it I think. Better off with a cheap 12 Guage and some 00 buckshot

If you want them to run off and die slowly go for it . But if your going to use a slug just get you a 350 legend.
If you pursue this don’t forget to order your decal and tee shirt showing you are a member of the koolaid cannon club

If your doing it just for sport, or to see if it can be done, I'd use 00 buck. Four pellets will fit in a three inch hull. If you're wanting to kill stuff, I'd rethink your plan

I know I'll catch flack for my opinion, but here goes anyway. A 410 belongs on the skeet field or around the barns dinging starlings in the hands of an accomplished shooter, period. No one is going to change my mind. 410 ammo just doesn't carry the payload. I know, a lot of people have taken quite a bit of small game. But in my estimation not reliably. It just doesn't have enough punch/payload to get through any kind of brush or trash. I also am of the opinion that a 410 is the worst tool to start a kid or new shooter. I'm an accomplished shooter and the 410 frustrates me. The last registered targets I recorded was with the NSCA , A class. I started my 3 kids with a 20. They broke targets, lots of them, and never got frustrated because of all of those broken targets. They are all good shots,especially my son. He is a 2 time state sporting clays champion, junior class. He didn't do that with a 410, 12ga all the way.

I have tried hunting with the 410. I found it to be unreliable on rabbits, with and without dogs. I do pretty well shooting starlings around the barns, but keeping my shots around 20 yards and using #9 hard shot, skeet field distances and no brush to shoot through. Predators, no way, not enough payload with the appropriate size shot not to mention enough velocity. Oddly you get better velocities with 2 1/2 inch and 1/2 ounce of shot than 3 inch shells.

There I said my piece, let the flames begin. I really don't give a rats patoot. By the way my favorite gauge is the 20. The last coyote I shot, outside of in a trap, was with a 20 and a 1oz load of 6's at about 10 or 12 yards.

I tend to agree with Paul. Why use a .410? The shells are harder to find, more expensive, and inferior in every way to a 12ga., or even a 20. There’s literally no situation where a .410 would be my first choice. And putting a 410 in the hands of a kid for hunting or clays is just setting them up for failure.

I use a .410 more than anything else on pheasants and rabbits (if I'm not using a .22). Its a great gun in the right hands. I have shot one coyote with it. It was pushed past me at >10 yards with 7 1/2 shot 3". Rolled him up. He got up and went just a few feet before he could go no further. I wouldn't make a practice of it though. I carry a .410 in the truck a lot in the winter and I have some Winchester buckshot for it in 3" some day I'll jump one close and kill him with it but I'm not specifically hunting them with it.

I use a Savage 301 in 20 gauge, it's set up for turkey with a red / green dot. It patterns the common #3 buckshot well enough out to 30 or so yards. There is 20 pellets in the 2 3/4 inch load. First winter using this setup, disclaimer I have taken 2 coyotes with it so far. A few coons and possum.

I have a 22,410 combo, I used it to dispatch a trapped coon and accidentally used the 410 trigger , the shell was a 3" #4... it worked but the distance was maybe 20 feet....

I think I read that Beav uses a 410 on trapped coyotes with #4 shot, hopefully he will chime in, but in any event we're talking close range....There is a #4 buck load that used to be available, good luck trying to find it though.

While I agree to a large extent the 410 is what I had as a kid and I quickly learned it's shortcomings. If you pay attention and adapt to the tool in hand you can learn something. I say the 410 made me a better hunter knowing I couldn't take a shot over thirty. So I had to get myself in the right location first or learn how to close the distance. Also since daddy required that I buy my own shells I had double incentive to learn, lol.

If I had to go small guage again it would be a 28.

https://www.aeammo.com/products/ati-atiac410bbbc-819644022145-ati-buck-5666

https://ammoseek.com/ammo/410-bore - three pages to look through.

Warrior, the 28 is a far better choice. I've had 3, an 1100 skeet and 2 Beretta OU. one was part of a 20/28 two barrel set. Shot a lot of grouse and pheasants over pointing dogs. The 28 punches way out of its class.

You can kill any game with a .410. That said I agree with Paul on his response to it being not logical for your purpose. The only reason i broke my daughters (when young) in with a .410 was not to scare them with gun kick. Some kids spook with the noise alone. Once they have enough butt they each got quickly graduated to a 20 gauge. Also, I super focused on shot placement and distance. Lila is my daughter in the pic. and had perfect placement inside of 15 yards. Still the pig turned on her when shot and approached her (slowly). She yelled dad, I told her to shoot again (I had my sights on the animal) and she yelled "like in the head?" to which I said yes. She shot it right behind the ear. I put shot placement so deep into her head that she did not know she was o.k. to shoot outside the lung/heart zone. lol

Moral of the story that pig was a dead pig after shot one but not dead on its side like mine with the same but longer shot with my 12 gauge. Advice get your self a larger gun and kick rear! Not judging just sharing experience.

Paul, maybe you just shoot well?

Good eats ADC!

Jayme, I do okay. No where near as well as I once did. Arthritis and eyesight has taken its toll. It's getting really tough to get around a hundred target Sporting course and my 8 1/2 pound target guns don't help. Getting old sucks.

Not sure about predators, but we have a guy come twice a year to hunt quail and that guy pulls doubles on every covey rise shooting a .410! And I’m not talking cripples either, dead birds easy enough for the cockers to find in a very short amount of time. Not sure of the make, but it’s a double barrel and it’s like his third arm, lol. Shoot enough of anything and you’ll become an expert with it.

Dad could do that, well not doubles, with that old model 37 410. The 410 can carry enough 9s or 8s to pattern well enough for quail. It just runs out of space for larger shot.

I know what you mean Paul. That boy is 17 now and routinely out shoots me. lol FWIW we like a .28 too. Here's the CZ Bobwhite in .28 and a little more current picture...

Yup, my boy out shoots me on a regular basis. He turned 38 Christmas day. I look at as a win win situation. He hunts, fishes, and traps. So I guess we did good with our kids.

Well everyone thanks for the input, honestly was just curious what could make it work, not if it was the best .

I agree with Paul also about the .410. For predator/coyote I would stick with the 12 gauge and 3 inch magnum shells.Or I'd try a cpl of the coyote specific loads they have out now days.And figure out which shell patterns the best for you before hand if possible.

There was a field and stream article where bill heavey went pheasant and they took some poor fella along that all he had to take was a .410 and then that fella put on a show all weekend as Bill missed alot of birds with his 12 gage to where the .410 started to seem like an unfair advantage. lol. it was a funny article. I just bought one in the last five years or so and I don't think I have ever shot one. My dad started me out on an old school double barrel side x side 20 gauge.

Shooting pheasants and quail from the ditch or over a pointing dog, doesn’t necessarily translate to a gun being “good enough” for shooting coyotes. I’ll catch some heat, but regardless of one’s quarry, the goal is a quick and efficient kill. I’m sorry but I’ll never buy into claims that payload and pattern don’t matter. That being said, I own 2 of them and are fun when the pigeons need thinning at our acreage or it’s time for rabbit pot pie.

Wolfdog, you can absolutely make it work, the naysayers just don't understand modern shotshell ballistics

Let's break it down

An easy load to load in the TPS 410 wad is the 383 stroker. 383 grains of shot = 0.875 oz

TSS #1 has effective penetration to kill a coyote at 100 yards. It is ballistically superior to #00 buckshot.

TSS #1 has 44 pellets per oz x 0.875 oz = 38 pellets

A 10ga 3-1/2" load of #00 Buckshot has 18 pellets

Another easy load in 410 is a 5/8oz load of tss

Even going to TSS #2 with this load you would have no problem killing coyotes and crazy ranges

TSS #2 has 54 pellets per oz x 0.625oz = 34 pellets

The only thing limiting the 410 with these large pellet sizes is the wad diameter. Even if you can't fit the full 383 grains I guarantee I can fit more pellets than the 10ga with #00 buck.

Enjoy doing things with your 410 that a 10 gauge can't wolfdog!

Yep we’re all dumb…. If ya wanna spend $5-$10 a shell for a $.02 coyote have at it.. If you’re gonna recite stats, do it evenly. Put your theory to test using the same payload in each gauge, not cherry picking situational variables. A 410 ten is not equal to a 28, 20, 16, 12, or 10 gauge all things equal, sorry to ruin your “facts”.

But for the price of hand full of boxes of that high end 410 ammo he could have bought a 12 or 20 that he can actually find ammo for about anywhere, have several loads to choose from and can afford to shoot. Heck rabbit lods I bought my wife's grand father for his 410 were over $15 a box when tha same load in 12 and 20 were 8$ a box. That was befor the prices went up and ammo became more limited.

Just like people that complain about the cost of beef or eggs etc

I can't feel bad for someone that complains about the cost when they can produce the product for much less on their own. Get a cheap reloader and you can load 410 rabbit loads for a few bucks a box

The above referenced tss 410 loads are not expensive to load due to the low payload and the current cheap prices of tss on the international market

The comparison was between a 410 with tss and a 10 gauge with lead shot. I thought that was stated clearly enough. No sense in loading a massive payload of tss in a 10 gauge, that is just wasting shot

And for reference, the 5/8oz load referenced in my original post will cost you less than $2 a piece to load

I load my 410 for predators the same way I load my 22LR for elk

Now you are missing the point. Now you need to spend more time more money and take up more space to make an inferior for the job ga do a job it was not ment for. Can you yes but for most people with a life/work time and space demands it make more since to buy a 300$ or less shot gun on a ga you you can walk in any store grab some ammo in a load from what you need to hunt and go hunt.

I can easily kill all the deer I want with a .22 lr dropping them on the spot but it's not the best tool for the job.

I don't like having to drive all the way to the store for my shells when I can make them in my living room

I understand that its not feasible for most people because it requires a special load and knowledge of shotshell ballistics, but to say it isn't possible without sacrificing performance based on the standard of lead shot is simply untrue

I load my rifle and pistol ammo. Have 2 Dillon 550s. It's never been worth my time to load shotgun ammo. The savings was not there and it's not like I need to wast time trying to get more killing power out of my 12, 16, or 20 g shells. I can do more for preformance with chokes. I also don't shoot shotguns a bunch and can easily buy enough cases on sell every few years to meat my needs cheaper than I could buy the components. But I don't need to shoot a shotgun more than 40 yards either.

Now rifle ammo in another thing all together. I save a ton and get much more accurate ammo and let's face it a shotgun shoots shot. You can't pick where each pellet hits its accuracy through volume. Get close enough and hit it with enough pellets so some hit vital parts. Witha a rifle you aim pick the flee on the animal you want to shoot off the animal and fire. Real accuracy and not a pattern measures in inches and pellet count per inch.

It neat to see what sub ga guns can do but like custom long range rifles thay are not practical for everyone. The guy shooting 7 shots a year and going hunting with his 30/30 for deer won't benefit in neck turning and sizing his brass and loading his ammo like a long rang shooter will. He is better off buying hid 2 boxes of core Locke ever 3 or 4 years and going hunting and spending the time and money preping his traps instead of loading ammo.

I just ran the numbers on loading the tss #2 load. Here are some numbers for you. I found tss shot for $52/pound. I am going to assume Win 296 powder at $36.5/pound last I bought (an 8 pounder). Wads ran me $.03/wad. Primers cost me $65/1000, I bought a case of 5000, so $.065/primer. And just yesterday I paid $50 for 500 once fired 2 1/2 inch AA cases, $.10/case. I have no idea what 3 inch cases go for. That all boils down to $2.32 per shell, $58/box of 25. Now if we want to talk ballistics. With your 34 #2 pellets being thrown out there at 50 to 100 yards where are they going to go? Are you going to tell me that you can reliably put one or more pellets in the right spot to drop your target on the spot and not through the leg muscle, guts, or leg bone? Heck even if you put one or more through the heart/lungs he's going 100 plus yards. It's called pattern density and 34 pellets at ill advised distances just don't cut it for me even if you don't have to contend with any brush or weeds. When you get way out there, there's a lot of air around those critters. Plus shelling out $58 bucks a box of 25 410 shells that may or may not serve there envisioned purpose is just ridiculous.

I shoot a 410 fairly often, a Beretta 686 Silver Pigeon, but just for fun. Do I get involved with any 410 events or tournaments? NO WAY! At my age I don't need the frustration of not crushing almost every target.

Hey Paul, look harder! TSS shot is $33 per pound, delivered in bulk. That brings the overall cost of the load you described down by 77 cents per shell

At 50 yards with a full choke I could put at least 15-17 of those 34 pellets on a paper plate. It would be very hard for a coyote to "go 100 plus yards" when he gets a head full of tss. If I was only shooting at 50 yards though, I would probably load tss #4's

Before you say that isn't possible, I urge you to research the pattern results of large tss shot. Due to it's 18g/cc density and hardness it naturally patterns extremely tight. When I shoot my tss waterfowl loads I have to shoot a cylinder choke to get the pattern to open up a bit

My bad, I got it as low as $44/pound. I see no sense in shelling out almost $900 dollars for 20 pounds of shot. Don't care what it's made of. And being harder than steel I assume it's going to be pretty rough on that full choke.

I'm done, see ya.

I loaded 3 36 caliber muzzle loading balls in 410 shells a few years ago. Out to 30 yards I am confident that would lay one right over. i just shot paper but out to 30 the groups would fit in a pie pan. That video I posted of 45 long colt look like they would work at that distance to. If thats what you have then whats you have.

I also tried some cast 357 bullets. They were all over the place even one at a time buffered with cream of wheat

Did any of you even read this?

Yep, I read it.

Best answer is nothing consistently imo. Get a bigger gun and if coondagger can make a little gun shoot ok, he can make a bigger one shoot better.

I bought and shot a 10ga for my fox hunting after several years of using a 12.

Compare the SAME size shot in a 410 and a 20 . 20 out performs in the field. BIG difference than a ballistics chart you pull out of the koolaid cannon bible....

Good grief, I would hope the 20 could put more of the same size pellets on target since they hold more. Doesn't take a rocket scientist, or an armchair investor to figure that out. The 20 won't kill it any more dead than the 410 will. Dead is dead.

I've killed turkeys out to 60+ yards with 410s loaded with TSS shot. You just don't like 410s because you are ineffective with one.

Coyotes are hard enough to call into shotgun range and kill with 12ga #4 buck.

Trying to call a coyote into range of a 410 throwing 3 or 4 buckshot pellets is akin to sitting on a 1000 yard cutover trying to kill a deer with a flintlock rifle or blunderbuss.

Have yah seen the Rossi circuit judge ...wheel gun rifle in .410

Ok everyone lemme get a little more in depth. Trying to start calling more . Deal is their alot of places that are gonna be really close shots in mean 10yd and less just thickets . And talking with my buddy who's an experienced caller down here, he point blank said expect to have them running up you pants when they can. And most critters would be grey fox and coon but coyotes and bobs are all in these areas as well. So really it would be a lot of fast snap shots and idk I figured at some of those distances a 12 would be a bit....well much.
But while when where rabbit hunting yesterday I was walking around with my little .410 and someone with a 12ga tried a shot on a bobcat ( missed) and it got me to thinking, what if that was me ? I'm pretty sure the little upland bird and small game shells I had wouldn't have done anything but sting him. So on the ride back I was trying to look up info on predator hunting with a .410 figuring there was something hand loaders or preator guys had cooked up and I found next to nothing.
Now I did see stuff about those TSS shells in .410 for turkey and they looked mighty impressive for what they where. And wondered if any may have tried them for predators but no luck...at least in YouTube.
Anyhow I'm gonna end up with a pretty good selection of shot gun powders anyway for all my cast reloads considered possibly getting into .410 reloading in the future hence my question.
Not trying to make it the best thing just what would optimize it IF

And hundreds of deer and hogs are killed every year with a 22lr that don't make a 22 a big game cartridge.

Just because you can pull off a stunt don't make it so for all.

Turkey ain’t no coyote!!!

Next time the debate comes up on here about best caliber or home defense weapon no need to go bigger than a pellet rifle. Shoot any intruder in the eye with a gamo air rifle it will be EFFECTIVE!!
Lol
Lol
Lol
Like I said last year and coined the phrase KOOLAID CANNON fir 2 reasons 410 is a kids gun and the TSS boys have drank the koolaid
“ hey koolaid “

Your making this really really hard for me to not want to mess with this

Refrain Wolfe, only a fool argues with a fool.

I do believe my steroid kit installed .20 blue streak and my boys .22 cal pcp air guns will drop deer as fast as ans effective at 15 to 20 yards as a coyote in a trap. And since I shoot a lot of deer 20 yards and less and could stretch that out to 25 yards I think they should be allowed for deer. We don't need no .45 cal air guns to kill a little old deer . They should reduce that down to .177 and allow .22lr as well. I can drop deer with those just as quick and effective as I can shooting them with a 7mm08 an 12g to the head. The .22 just does it quietly, cheaper, and with much less mess. So therefore must be best tool for the job.

Plain old lead 40 grain 22 LR bullet to a deer's heart at 40 yards is very effective, It doesn't have to be in the ear though that works too. They dont run very far. Just like bow hunting it requires discipline from the hunter. Discipline to learn to shoot accurately and discipline not to try shooting at 75 yards. Same thing with a 410 and coyotes. Have to get close.

People that shoot deer with a 22 are usually poaching. Dont want a lot of noise. Its not deer season so getting close is a lot easier. Sometimes its just opportunity. A kid out rabbit hunting or something and a deer appears.

I think a lot of nay sayer's read more than experiment. That 45 long colt bullet looked pretty effective in the video. I bet a 410 slug would be too. Like I said, 3 36 caliber muzzle loading balls hit pretty close together out to about 30 yards.

Jbyrd I love it when you show your naivety on this subject

I friend of mine bought his 10 year old a 410 for deer hunting shooting slugs. His son shot a doe in the front shoulder. The deer ran off. They didn't find any blood. The next day that same doe was shot by another hunter with a rifle. The 410 slug was in the front shoulder. It hit a rib and failed to penetrate the thoracic area. He bought his boy a rifle after that.

Hope you do proof is in the pudding!! Get you a load that looks good on paper then try it on live animals. You will find real quick that ballistics charts and the 410 shot or lack there of won't kill COYOTES effective as far as a 12 gauge.

Danny your results prove what I and others are trying to say (@30Yards) At 30 yards I would also a load of 7 1/2 dove shell would kill a coyote. Just not an effective tool. Yes at 30 maybe but how percent of coyotes ever come in to 30 yards when calling.

I think a load of 7 1/2 at 30 yards would not kill a coyote. Not lead shot anyway. It would not penetrate good enough. Coyotes are tough. It might die but I bet you would never find it.

I think you can do it Wolfie at the ranges you are talking. If I were to try to develop a load I'd start with a 3" hull and a max load of #2 lead if you can find it. No it won't be as effective as a 12 but for your needs it just may be what the doctor ordered.

I don't know about 410s and heavier loads but a load of 7 1/2 lead from a 20ga doesn't do well on racoons at 15-20 yards chased one out of a corn crib ,you can see the pattern hit,fur moves.they may even go over but the one time I did it I hit it 3 times and it kept getting up and I would shoot it again the gun was loaded slug , slug , shot , shot , shot so they came out in 3 shot then 2 slugs
it was over as soon as the slug hit.

maybe not a bad way to keep a gun loaded but common 7 1/2 shot trap/target loads are a mistake on anything bigger than a little bird.

the pattern was about 6 inches at that distance

lots of people talk about how bird shot is good enough , that lead me to believe it is not if you get any distance to it , it may be if it al hits still in the wad but if you are up to a 6 inch pattern it is not very effective at all. could very well be lethal and definitely a bad day. just not effective at stopping.

I love it when you show your ballistic charts and excerpts from the koolaid bible. Have you killed with your cannon? Yes you have !! Never argued that point. MY ENTIRE take on this is put your TSS in a 12 gauge that
A holds more shot
B has more powder behind that load
Stop all this crazy crap comparing #9 tss to 00 buck. The barn side news paper pattern test will show that a fox / coyote can walk thru a 00 buck pattern at as low as 30 yards. Can 00 buck kill at 75 ? yes indeed it can !!! But the percentage of animals that run off at that range will be high.

I spent HUNDREDS of hours test patterning shot gun loads for foxes in the 80"s . 0, 00, #3 BB copperplated. YES TSS wasn't heard of back then. STEEL shot just didn't get the job done. I would formulated a load out of a 2 3/4 in 12 gauge . ALL testing was done from a Winchester single barrel 30 in full choke. OR a Remington 870 with a modified barrel.
0,00, forget it reasons I mentioned before.
Copper plated BB , steel of any kind the pattern would not hold in either gun. Looked like it would glide plus just didn't kill as good. I thought # 3 buck was the cats meow until a few foxes got up and ran off. More testing showed at 50 yards the HOLES in the pattern due to lack of shot. Plus a gray fax is pretty small body animal BY far the most effective pattern AND field testing on live animals was plain old #2 lead. Has shotgunning come along way since then? yes of course. But one constant and throw your laws of physics in you like to quote when comparing shoot materials. Can't argue with more pellets down range when USING the same type of pellets.

People seem to forget why a shotgun with small bird shot kills in the first place. Its not so much from tissue devastation as kinetic shock simutaniosly hitting a animal....


Had a cousin rabbit hunting back in the 90's . His beagles jumped a buck and it came by him at about 40 yards. He threw up the shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 game loads and was thinking he would send it to the next county . Guess what it rolled like a rabbit, Kicked 4-5 times and was DEAD . But he never goes deer hunting with his rabbit gun.

Then one comes in at 45yrds and there you sit with a pea shooter.

What's the experienced caller you're going with use? Bet it won't a .410.

From reading your post Wolfy, it seems you don't want to address the problem I'm guessing you have....recoil.
Nothing to be ashamed of, I know big brutes that flinch shooting a .243, if I'm guessing right on you.

It just seems that way to me with you always wanting reduced loads and if I'm right, get on a bench with the heavier guns so the butt is in your shoulder pocket to start.

If I'm wromg, sorry for jumping to conclusions!

Sounds like a challenge to me Wolfie. Go for it. You can prove him wrong, it happens on here all the time.

The amount of powder behind the load is completely irrelevant if they are traveling at the same speed. TSS at 1400 fps out of a 410 barrel is the same as TSS at 1400 fps out of a 12ga barrel

You are absolutely right the 12 can hold more tss than the 410, but you are completely missing my point. The standard that you guys always compare to and talk about is lead shot. So I compare tss in a 410 to lead shot in a 12 gauge. Because according to most members of this forum, lead shot in a 12 gauge is the end all be all. If a 410 can outperform that, it must be the bees knees, right? Packing a 12ga full to the brim with tss is just wasting money and shot

I agree that pattern density in buckshot loads is low. That further proves my point of how I can make a 410 tss load superior to a 12ga lead buckshot load. I can have more pellets in my load and be able to deliver them on target in a tighter pattern due to the density and hardness of the shot

I hate to always look like the know it all in these discussions, but I have killed deer, coyotes, fox, canada geese, sandhill cranes, tundra swans, umpteen species of waterfowl, multiple variations of turkeys etc etc with a 410 and tss shot. I am not talking out of a book or charts, I only use that to justify what I have experienced firsthand in the field.

Heck, we are talking about all these big shot sizes, but I can tell you first hand that the 5/8oz load of tss 7's from a 410 will flat out barrel roll a coyote at 40 yards. If I was going to set up a 410 tss coyote load it would probably be with #4's. They'll kill past where my shooting abilities will and I'll have 73 pellets in my load.

It still comes down to you spending alot more money for TSS to do what can be done with a 12 and #4 buckshot.

I can see it for waterfowl because of the environmentalists but this is a different cat.

Dagger I agree with everything you just said.!! The entire point told to most of us growing up is a 12 guage is superior because of NUMBER of shot. PLUS powder behind that shot. As for the killing of all those animals I believe you. Just don't be like the creedmore man bun people >LOL
I think some on this topic are questioning the WHY go to the expense? I might be wrong.

Back when I was crazy into all this I kept telling my self that a 1 oz load from a 20 gauge would out shoot a 1 oz load of 12 gauge because of the smaller bore tighter pattern. BUT a lake side fox squirrel hunt changed that notion real fast . I would shoot out a fox squirrel from atop a hickory tree and then have to finish it off while running off on the ground. After looking close I noticed several BLOOD blisters on the belly of each one. The shot just didn't have enough power behind the load to penetrate.

You talk about 1400 fps achieved in a 410. What can you reach in a 12 ?

My last question to lead TSS or rock throwers.

Some one hands you 50 bucks and says take that and a single barrel shot gun of your choice and BUY the shells off the shelf at menards and KILL the most, Pick your animal !!! WHAT gauge and what size shot . Don't think TSS will be the one considering you MIGHT get 5 shells versus 100 of #4 lead

Its a game to some regardless of time and cost, others its just get'n it done.

Simple as that.

7.5 shot will not fully penetrate and pass through a squirrel at thirty yards. I should know as that is what I use for squirrel since sixes don't pattern well enough, not enough pellets, at that distance.

I take it as matter of course that I have to pick shot from the meat. The shot that kills is the ones that hit the ribs and trashes the lungs and heart. Shot that nits the larger muscles or bones doesn't pass through.

I imagine it would be more of the same in spades on a coyote.

One of the heavier shot materials such as bismuth ot tss should on paper achieve better penetration if shot size is the same, equal pentration if you drop down sizes to gain better pattern, more shot.

But no matter what you do you're still stuck with the smaller case capacity so there's only so much that can be done, period. There are much better options available.

BTW, I feel the same way about all these fools disrespecting turkeys with the 410.

And here is where we come full circle

Typical winchester 4 buck runs around 9 or 10 bucks for a box of 5 shells, so $1.80 per shell

I can load the 5/8oz tss load in 410 for right at that or maybe a couple cents less

I am not spending extra money


Like I explained above, there is no additional expense. If I loaded 2 ounces of shot in a 12 gauge then I would have additional expense, but that is just wasting shot

Typically my 12 ga loads are slower than the 410 loads due the volume of shot in the wad slowing the load down. Unless you filled the whole wad up with fillers instead of shot, but then why not just shoot the 410?

If everybody now understands I can have increased performance with a 410 shooting tss over a 12ga shooting lead buckshot for the same price or less I would like to go on with my day

And ill out shoot you with the buckshot, no ifs ands or butts when it comes to predators.

I know a guy who lives in a shotgun only zone for deer hunting. He says all of his hunting buddies and him shoot 20 gauge slugs over 12 gauge. He claims many more advantages with the 20.

This sounds like a challenge! I'm in, tell me when to be there and I will be there. I love showing people what the little guns are capable of. Haven't shot it in front of anyone yet that hasn't become a believer

If there was a shotgun smaller than a 410 I would shoot that so you wouldn't have such a handicap

I won't need the whole shot string to hit like you with a .410, one or two buckshot will do if my aim ain't spot on.

Pattern density and penetration are king, shot string is somewhere way down at the bottom of the list. I have the upper hand in both pattern density and penetration

You are an original, that's for sure!!! lol

Thinking a .410 is better than a 10 or 12 for predator hunting.

It is for little shot, but I'm shooting big stuff. One will do but you don't seem to grasp that.

I'm just hard headed enough to design ways to make things happen that people say are impossible. It's the engineer in me

I have to respectfully disagree. If your aim is off and you get one pellet in the rear end or guts of that coyote you will never see him again. Pattern density wins. Just because your pellets are big doesn't mean you can afford to not have the pattern density to reliably hit the vitals

Whatever,

What's the energy of one of these tss pellets at say 40yds compared to say bb lead at same muzzle velocity .

It is commonly accepted that 3.7" of penetration is required to kill a coyote. Here are some tss numbers at 1300 fps

1 oz TSS #4 shot, 83 pellets, 3.70" of gel penetration at 78.9 yards.
1 oz TSS #3 shot, 66 pellets, 3.70" of gel penetration at 96.8 yards.
1 oz TSS #2 shot, 54 pellets, 3.70" of gel penetration at 115.5 yards.
1 oz TSS #1 shot, 44 pellets, 3.70" of gel penetration at 134.7 yards.
1 oz TSS BB shot, 31 pellets, 3.70" of gel penetration at 175.2 yards.

1-1/2 oz of lead BB shot has about 77 pellets, at 1300 fps and it gets 3.70" of gel penetration at 46.1 yards

How many of those could wolfie get in a 3" .410? Any of those would be devastating on a coyote at the ranges he's talking about.

PS- Make me some!

Here's another test at 3.7 inches coyote hunters figure as needed.



Give me the cheap stuff.

Dear sweet Jesus!! Start another thread !!!

But they are right ! ONE AND ONLY REASON IS RECOIL .., extra weight of the 12 drags it down to 20 gauge ballistics. After sighting in 3 of the new bolt action 20 gauge I wanted one !! But considering I got 10 boxes of Hornady sst in my safe and not a 20 anywhere to be found I didn’t. Of yea paid 6.99 at Dunham for mine . Now they are 19 bucks box

And, I learned #4 buck thru experience, not data.

I'd like to see how many of those #4 buck you could put on a paper plate at 94 yards

Nothing wrong with #4 buck hippie, it will kill much further than it is able to hold together

Make joe Biden look smart !!
You can’t make that happen

Only takes one, I've been trying to get that thru your head. I hunted at night, some running and you ain't gonna make the perfect shot needed with your 410 every time. Spread isn't a detriment in that regard when one does the trick.

That is impossible jbyrd!!

Hippie, I don't have to make a perfect shot because I have a higher pellet count. Running coyotes are no problem if my shooting ability can keep up. The feller with less pellets has to a better job of aiming than the feller with more pellets

Not with a 410 you dont. Keep telling yourself that.

I shouldn't claim that......how many pellets in A 410 with #2 tss?

#3 tss would be the closest to 4buck

With #3 tss I would have 58 pellets in the 383 stroker load. 17 more than the 4buck load. And I can hold them together much, much better than the lead shot

If you wanted to go down to #2 I would still have 47 pellets and have a higher pellet count than the 12 ga 4 buck, but the #3 tss is a more even comparison based on penetration

Wolfie, if your shots are 10yds or less, then yeah a .410 will kill them with regular dove loads. A pellet gun would kill them at that distance providing you’re a good shot.
If you want to make sure with the .410, then just get some 3” TSS turkey loads. The thing about TSS is the penetration. You can literally body shoot a turkey with TSS and not find a pellet in the breast meat. It will pull a feather completely through with the shot and find it on the skin on the other side. And that’s going through the cartilage as well.
While it was a 20ga I used, I stoned a 125# sow coming straight to me at 34 ranged yards with #9 TSS. Stoned means flipped her over and her feet straight up in the air. A coyote at 15yds coming straight to me did a backflip and was dead when it landed. Pretty sure a .410 at that distance would do the same.

Most certainly anything can be engineered to function within a given set of parameters. But only an arrogant engineer assumes nature knows and stays within parameters.

All is well until the bridge or dam collapses under conditions not expected.

A smart engineer plans for a three to one or better safety margin.

Warrior, if I used a factor of safety of 3 on everything I design the state would put me under the jail for negligent use of government funds

I wasn't aware you were an engineer sir

Same goes for shotshell loading

If I used a factor of 3 times greater than 12ga lead shot on pellet count the shells would be impossible to afford

Army Engineer, ie, just enough hands on operating experience to know that the LT with his degree can't be trusted with a map and compass.

But, yes, being in construction, a civil engineer brother and other experience I don't put much stock in what the formula on paper says. I trust in the field pass or fail results.

In my hands on shooting of the 410, and I love the 410 as my go to squirrel gun, is not capable of consistent results under field conditions for game larger than a squirrel.

Note consistent, as in the type of shots presented at variable unknown angles and distances. Not what can be done under ideal controlled circumstances.

I would completely agree if we were talking about lead shot

What is your field experience with 410 tss loads?

I'd bet I'm over 1000 rounds of tss fired out of my 410

Heck, this season I shot almost 2 cases of 410 tss at waterfowl alone

That is where my experience comes from, and it is further justified by the numbers on paper

I'd be impressed if your field experience were similar

Then explain why you prefer a 28 over the 410 for duck hunting per your previous posts.

We know why, and like I said earlier, to some its a game, to others its just fetch it done.

Because I can shoot a steel/tss duplex load that uses less tss than my 410 loads. Costs less money to shoot, plain and simple

You could shoot lead cheaper.

Yeah and I could kill a lot more ducks over a baited pond with cracked corn too

Now you're talking.

Reading this entire thread has been a hoot. I may have learned something!

Chris