I do believe my steroid kit installed .20 blue streak and my boys .22 cal pcp air guns will drop deer as fast as ans effective at 15 to 20 yards as a coyote in a trap. And since I shoot a lot of deer 20 yards and less and could stretch that out to 25 yards I think they should be allowed for deer. We don't need no .45 cal air guns to kill a little old deer . They should reduce that down to .177 and allow .22lr as well. I can drop deer with those just as quick and effective as I can shooting them with a 7mm08 an 12g to the head. The .22 just does it quietly, cheaper, and with much less mess. So therefore must be best tool for the job.

Plain old lead 40 grain 22 LR bullet to a deer's heart at 40 yards is very effective, It doesn't have to be in the ear though that works too. They dont run very far. Just like bow hunting it requires discipline from the hunter. Discipline to learn to shoot accurately and discipline not to try shooting at 75 yards. Same thing with a 410 and coyotes. Have to get close.

People that shoot deer with a 22 are usually poaching. Dont want a lot of noise. Its not deer season so getting close is a lot easier. Sometimes its just opportunity. A kid out rabbit hunting or something and a deer appears.

I think a lot of nay sayer's read more than experiment. That 45 long colt bullet looked pretty effective in the video. I bet a 410 slug would be too. Like I said, 3 36 caliber muzzle loading balls hit pretty close together out to about 30 yards.

Jbyrd I love it when you show your naivety on this subject

I friend of mine bought his 10 year old a 410 for deer hunting shooting slugs. His son shot a doe in the front shoulder. The deer ran off. They didn't find any blood. The next day that same doe was shot by another hunter with a rifle. The 410 slug was in the front shoulder. It hit a rib and failed to penetrate the thoracic area. He bought his boy a rifle after that.

Hope you do proof is in the pudding!! Get you a load that looks good on paper then try it on live animals. You will find real quick that ballistics charts and the 410 shot or lack there of won't kill COYOTES effective as far as a 12 gauge.

Danny your results prove what I and others are trying to say (@30Yards) At 30 yards I would also a load of 7 1/2 dove shell would kill a coyote. Just not an effective tool. Yes at 30 maybe but how percent of coyotes ever come in to 30 yards when calling.

I think a load of 7 1/2 at 30 yards would not kill a coyote. Not lead shot anyway. It would not penetrate good enough. Coyotes are tough. It might die but I bet you would never find it.

I think you can do it Wolfie at the ranges you are talking. If I were to try to develop a load I'd start with a 3" hull and a max load of #2 lead if you can find it. No it won't be as effective as a 12 but for your needs it just may be what the doctor ordered.

I don't know about 410s and heavier loads but a load of 7 1/2 lead from a 20ga doesn't do well on racoons at 15-20 yards chased one out of a corn crib ,you can see the pattern hit,fur moves.they may even go over but the one time I did it I hit it 3 times and it kept getting up and I would shoot it again the gun was loaded slug , slug , shot , shot , shot so they came out in 3 shot then 2 slugs
it was over as soon as the slug hit.

maybe not a bad way to keep a gun loaded but common 7 1/2 shot trap/target loads are a mistake on anything bigger than a little bird.

the pattern was about 6 inches at that distance

lots of people talk about how bird shot is good enough , that lead me to believe it is not if you get any distance to it , it may be if it al hits still in the wad but if you are up to a 6 inch pattern it is not very effective at all. could very well be lethal and definitely a bad day. just not effective at stopping.

I love it when you show your ballistic charts and excerpts from the koolaid bible. Have you killed with your cannon? Yes you have !! Never argued that point. MY ENTIRE take on this is put your TSS in a 12 gauge that
A holds more shot
B has more powder behind that load
Stop all this crazy crap comparing #9 tss to 00 buck. The barn side news paper pattern test will show that a fox / coyote can walk thru a 00 buck pattern at as low as 30 yards. Can 00 buck kill at 75 ? yes indeed it can !!! But the percentage of animals that run off at that range will be high.

I spent HUNDREDS of hours test patterning shot gun loads for foxes in the 80"s . 0, 00, #3 BB copperplated. YES TSS wasn't heard of back then. STEEL shot just didn't get the job done. I would formulated a load out of a 2 3/4 in 12 gauge . ALL testing was done from a Winchester single barrel 30 in full choke. OR a Remington 870 with a modified barrel.
0,00, forget it reasons I mentioned before.
Copper plated BB , steel of any kind the pattern would not hold in either gun. Looked like it would glide plus just didn't kill as good. I thought # 3 buck was the cats meow until a few foxes got up and ran off. More testing showed at 50 yards the HOLES in the pattern due to lack of shot. Plus a gray fax is pretty small body animal BY far the most effective pattern AND field testing on live animals was plain old #2 lead. Has shotgunning come along way since then? yes of course. But one constant and throw your laws of physics in you like to quote when comparing shoot materials. Can't argue with more pellets down range when USING the same type of pellets.

People seem to forget why a shotgun with small bird shot kills in the first place. Its not so much from tissue devastation as kinetic shock simutaniosly hitting a animal....


Had a cousin rabbit hunting back in the 90's . His beagles jumped a buck and it came by him at about 40 yards. He threw up the shotgun loaded with 7 1/2 game loads and was thinking he would send it to the next county . Guess what it rolled like a rabbit, Kicked 4-5 times and was DEAD . But he never goes deer hunting with his rabbit gun.

Then one comes in at 45yrds and there you sit with a pea shooter.

What's the experienced caller you're going with use? Bet it won't a .410.

From reading your post Wolfy, it seems you don't want to address the problem I'm guessing you have....recoil.
Nothing to be ashamed of, I know big brutes that flinch shooting a .243, if I'm guessing right on you.

It just seems that way to me with you always wanting reduced loads and if I'm right, get on a bench with the heavier guns so the butt is in your shoulder pocket to start.

If I'm wromg, sorry for jumping to conclusions!

Sounds like a challenge to me Wolfie. Go for it. You can prove him wrong, it happens on here all the time.

The amount of powder behind the load is completely irrelevant if they are traveling at the same speed. TSS at 1400 fps out of a 410 barrel is the same as TSS at 1400 fps out of a 12ga barrel

You are absolutely right the 12 can hold more tss than the 410, but you are completely missing my point. The standard that you guys always compare to and talk about is lead shot. So I compare tss in a 410 to lead shot in a 12 gauge. Because according to most members of this forum, lead shot in a 12 gauge is the end all be all. If a 410 can outperform that, it must be the bees knees, right? Packing a 12ga full to the brim with tss is just wasting money and shot

I agree that pattern density in buckshot loads is low. That further proves my point of how I can make a 410 tss load superior to a 12ga lead buckshot load. I can have more pellets in my load and be able to deliver them on target in a tighter pattern due to the density and hardness of the shot

I hate to always look like the know it all in these discussions, but I have killed deer, coyotes, fox, canada geese, sandhill cranes, tundra swans, umpteen species of waterfowl, multiple variations of turkeys etc etc with a 410 and tss shot. I am not talking out of a book or charts, I only use that to justify what I have experienced firsthand in the field.

Heck, we are talking about all these big shot sizes, but I can tell you first hand that the 5/8oz load of tss 7's from a 410 will flat out barrel roll a coyote at 40 yards. If I was going to set up a 410 tss coyote load it would probably be with #4's. They'll kill past where my shooting abilities will and I'll have 73 pellets in my load.

It still comes down to you spending alot more money for TSS to do what can be done with a 12 and #4 buckshot.

I can see it for waterfowl because of the environmentalists but this is a different cat.

Dagger I agree with everything you just said.!! The entire point told to most of us growing up is a 12 guage is superior because of NUMBER of shot. PLUS powder behind that shot. As for the killing of all those animals I believe you. Just don't be like the creedmore man bun people >LOL
I think some on this topic are questioning the WHY go to the expense? I might be wrong.

Back when I was crazy into all this I kept telling my self that a 1 oz load from a 20 gauge would out shoot a 1 oz load of 12 gauge because of the smaller bore tighter pattern. BUT a lake side fox squirrel hunt changed that notion real fast . I would shoot out a fox squirrel from atop a hickory tree and then have to finish it off while running off on the ground. After looking close I noticed several BLOOD blisters on the belly of each one. The shot just didn't have enough power behind the load to penetrate.

You talk about 1400 fps achieved in a 410. What can you reach in a 12 ?

My last question to lead TSS or rock throwers.

Some one hands you 50 bucks and says take that and a single barrel shot gun of your choice and BUY the shells off the shelf at menards and KILL the most, Pick your animal !!! WHAT gauge and what size shot . Don't think TSS will be the one considering you MIGHT get 5 shells versus 100 of #4 lead

Its a game to some regardless of time and cost, others its just get'n it done.

Simple as that.

7.5 shot will not fully penetrate and pass through a squirrel at thirty yards. I should know as that is what I use for squirrel since sixes don't pattern well enough, not enough pellets, at that distance.

I take it as matter of course that I have to pick shot from the meat. The shot that kills is the ones that hit the ribs and trashes the lungs and heart. Shot that nits the larger muscles or bones doesn't pass through.

I imagine it would be more of the same in spades on a coyote.

One of the heavier shot materials such as bismuth ot tss should on paper achieve better penetration if shot size is the same, equal pentration if you drop down sizes to gain better pattern, more shot.

But no matter what you do you're still stuck with the smaller case capacity so there's only so much that can be done, period. There are much better options available.

BTW, I feel the same way about all these fools disrespecting turkeys with the 410.