Okay I understand why live market guys want laminated jaws to lessen damage, but I want to hear from fur trappers,use?/don't use?, pro's and cons, why you feel they are nessasary or not?

I don't use jaw laminations because I feel it stops the trap from getting as solid a bite on the critter as it could. Being that the springs on the trap are the same, a trap will have half the pounds per square inch holding power as one with a jaw that is half as thick.
An extreme example of what i'm talking about would be take a peice of 1"x12" board and lay the thing flat on your hand and put 50 pounds on it, then stand it on edge and apply the weight.

it is really gonna boil down to what you like. i do like laminations and use them on most if not all of my K-9 and cat traps. some of these traps are offsets and some are not. i do think if a person laminates traps there is a strong possibility you will end up four coiling them. that little bit of weight on the end of the jaw slows them down to where it was noticeable to me.

not necessary, i am just getting a touch softer in my years. i think they are a bit easier on the animal.

just my .02 worth.

I laminate all my traps so it gives them more jaw spread basicly and is easier on the animals on a 3 day check.

this is an interesting question as some claims it increases holding ability, but i dont see how. (other than some coons maybe.)

and adding lams, slows down trap speed and hinders trap coming through covering.

Not when you 4 coil them. I do belive that it increases holding ability as you have a wider surface.

He said the same spring laminated vs. not.

See his 1x12 comment. No way the wider surface helps hold the foot.

Another note: Center swiveling the traps positions the foot in the top center of the trap as well, which is where it is easiest to pull out.

Its all for the comfort of the animal, and strenghtening the trap so it will hold up to what the critters throw at it. Laminations and center swiveling do nothing to help the traps holding power. IMO!

~ADC~

Mine have been laminated for 15 years or more. I wouldn't want to use one with out it. I prefer 1/4" round rod welded to jaw for the full length of the offset jaw area.T.20

Never seems to be a problem for me. Been using strictly laminated traps since around 93. For coyotes I've now gone to 4 coiling them as well. Lams help that occasional toe catch. And there great if your in an area alot of stray animals or just a dog roaming around. I also think they help hold IMO.They also eliminate jaw distortion and flexing while a critter is caught.

I disagree. Center swiveling allows a much more easier swiveling action with NO binding compared to the corner swiveling thats standard on most traps. The wider jaw surface is not smooth it is more like a washboaed and has grooves that conform into the foot which I believe helps hold and prevents slipping. I have yet to see where a center swiveled trap has lost a full pad catch, Toes yes, but you get that with any trap.But I've held more toe catches with laminated traps.

It's easier on the animal. They hold better. Most important...they are easier on MY FINGERS....LOL.

anybody else?

I agree completely!

I never said they are better if left swiveled off the corner but dead center it where it is easiest to pull out.

BMP's are political bologna that sooths the minds of AR's and people on the fence, like cable restraints. Not that I'm saying that's bad but that their recommendations are taking into consideration the whole picture, animal comfort and all, not just the traps sheer ability to hold the catch, which is what this question pertained to.

I believe a trap left stock if it doesn't pull apart will hold critters just as well as a fully modified one. There really is no in between. Once you start adding mods you'll need to go all the way. Laminations require stronger springs, stronger springs, leads to base plating, base plating most often leads to center swiveling... all stuff most non-professional trappers will never need or even notice a different in catch holding ability.

(note the avatar)
~ADC~

That is the correct answer IMO.

~ADC~

All good points everyone. I think alot of new trappers get on here and soon believe that a stock trap will not catch animals without full modification. They are nice but not a must have for every situation. I'm not saying go out and use junk with weak springs,etc. But not every trap needs modifications before it can be used.

ADC, I believe you are correct, that once the mod's start you'll end up having to go all the way. Sometimes it seems like it would be cheaper to just completly build my own trap instead of buying one then completly modifying/rebuilding it to what it ends up being.

With a smirk on my face and an evil glint in my eye I say..."So Jayme would you say trappers using sharp, thin jawed traps that are looking to trap wild canines should proceed into the field or modify?" LOL

Come on now! Modifications work! Keep in mind why they originated...poorly designed equipment at the time (late 1970's early '80s)....AND COYOTES. They are improvements for equipment that trappers found could not hold up to the abuse of hard fighting animals. AND after using them.. the benefits to other animals were discovered also.

No sarcasm meant just my view point.

MChewk, I understand tounge in cheek,but I have rarely ever seen foot damage with a proper sized trap and a non-laminated jaw,we also have 24 hr trap checks here, so maybe if left longer in the trap it would cause problems. I have seen some damage when an incidental gets in a trap not meant for them, example: muskrat in a beaver foothold. Otherwise where do you get these thin jawed sharp jaws?I've never seen them!Unless of coarse your sharpening yours?

Another benefit of the lams is the stiffening of the jaws. In my book...that's a big advantage that's often overlooked.

Any trap with stamped out jaws are considered sharp IMO, victors were the worst and blake and lambs 1.5's and Dukes at a time but they have gotten better. When set for the intended animal on a 24 hour check you don't see alot of damage,but that's not always the case nor the intended animal such as using a #3 for coyotes but you catch a coon or fox.And if you go a smaller trap say a 1.75 your setting yourself up eventually for failure. Trappers like O'Gorman and Pederson already had this figured out along time ago that mods work. They probably forgot more than most of us will ever know.

Heres one of my favorite pics a 2 toed hind foot catch on a coyote in a #3 Montana with outside lams of 1/4". The angle doesn't show the lams.Caught Dead Center on a center swiveled trap.Coyotes have alot more power to power out of a trap when hind foot caught.But the Center swiveling and lams held just fine. Alot of times from my past experiences with unmodified traps I could catch them that way too, just minus the coyote or fox.

Playin4...I was refering to the #2 Victor coils and the many look-a-likes of yesteryear.

Been trapping for a while and have seen better results WITH the trap mod.s.

Okay, I agree with that,some of those high production trap years had alot of problems.the #2 victor coil was a peice of junk in my opinion,cheaply built,and not a good trap at all for what they were advertised for.

blak coyote I don't see any jaw laminations in that photo?,but assuming they are there,I've held yotes and foxes exactly like that without laminations many times. That photo really doesn't prove anything to me as that yote could have left you with only two toes if it had fought harder or pulled out. More surface= less holding power no matter how you slice it. I'm not trying to tell you how to trap-do what works for you best,confidence is #1 in my book. If you think the only way to hold a yote is with lams them go for it.

D Edinger, yes it does give some backbone to the jaws,but remember that the individual jaw is only as strong as it's weakest point, and therefore will still flex at those points.

Remember I'm not knocking anyones way of doing things,just debating a topic that there is probably no correct answer for, but I still don't believe every first year trapper needs full modded traps to get started.

If a jaw bends on the ends, where the steel is parallel to the direction of pull...the something is terribly wrong. Just my $0.02.

playin4funami: You are correct when you say: but I still don't belive every first year trapper needs full modded traps to get started. Any new trap with nothing done to it will still catch animals. So the question to you is: Why do people who have been trapping for lots of years say that traps should be modified? Easy, they have tried and tested what works best.

AMEN!

Not all pros use all modifications. In fact I would dare guess that a majority of high production trappers do not always use super tricked out gear. I may be wrong.

I will agree that on some models of traps, the added strength is beneficial. And certainly there are some PR benefits.

Personally, I prefer lams for everything but drowning sets. But its not due to increased holding power. And i would still set all my unlaminated traps.

Didn't say it's the only way nor did I say all first year trappers need them. Just pointing out you'll hold more. Yes it's laminated.I can't see where that coyote could have fought harder,it was hind fooot caught in that pic,which is tougher to hold IMO. With regluar sheared jaws it could of just been toes like I've seen in the past. And it was mentioned the center is the weakest part. Use what you want but I've learned modifying helps insure not getting bit in the backside by a flaw in the trap. And you'll find a flaw eventually in a stock trap if you use them enough and trap enough.If your ok with losing an occassionally then modifying maybe isn't a concern. Not saying you won't lose an animal with a modified trap,but it'll be less often because of trap failure.

I hope everyone understands that this is not a personal attack on the way anything is done by you.

please go back and read the original topic as we've slewed off course a little.

I guess I should have been more specific because now we are adding baseplate,extra springs,larger size springs,etc.
The original Question was about jaw laminations and if they help or hinder the holding abilities of an otherwise stock trap.

I too have some modified traps guys and like them in certain situations and not in some others. How many here use 100% of their traps fully modified and would not use any stock traps?

I have all mine fully modified and wouldn't use stock traps unless I wanted to trap coons. All my canine and cat traps are fully modified.

I played this game way back before some of you were born. I did the laminations I did the night latching I did the center swiveling. You know what I really didn't see where any of those things made a signifigant diffrence.
With traps of #2 AND #1.75 SIZE the animals foot will be centerd In the trap. And If that animal was caught high It's first lunge will have pulled the trap to center and down to It's pad. And that's as far as It will go as long as you have a stong trap.
I like to use this anolgy when discusing centerd swiveled traps.
If your truck Is bogged down will It be eaiser to pull It out from either side or from directly behind It? When pulling from the side you are actully pulling the truck In deeper. Same with a animals foot In a trap. And with the swivel hooked to the end of the trap you aren't placeing all the strain on the center of the trap like you do with a centerd mounted swivel. The center Is the weakest part of the trap. And when you place undo strain on the center of the trap frame you also place undo presure on the jaws. That's why you have to add laminations and base plates to centerd mounted swivel set ups.
So If you have a strong trap that Is correctly adjusted and has several swivels In the chain set up and you smooth off any sharp edges I feel that all the other mods are over kill.

Was the old #2 Vic Square jaw trap a good trap? Well for It's time and since it was advertized as a fox trap sure It was. Non of us ever had any trouble holding those light weight red fox in that trap. About the only mods we made were to cut down the pans. They were just to big and you had to many fox standing on the pan and the jaw at the same time. Hence lots of snapped empty traps. Cutting down the pans took care of that problem.

Gary,your right . You don't need them for everything, especially if your on drowner's for coon. Like I mentioned I've been running all mods on my traps since 93. I was looking for a way to keep critters in the trap till 2:30 in the afternoon back then. We couldn't check traps before 6am by law and my job started at 6am till 2:30. Wanted to reduced cutting and numb feet because we all know where that escalates to. So I started modifying and it helped alot in cutting down losses and wrecked traps. Especially that #2 vic square jaw,I hate that trap.You don't always need to lam smaller traps unless your target like fox has the potential to take a coyote.I know guys catch coyotes in stock 1.75's and 1.5's and IMO it's playing Russian roulette, sooner or later your going to lose. How many posts during the season do you see where someone post a stock trap with the jaws blown.lol

Laminating larger traps is just good good sense when there's the potential for catch smaller critters that are worth a few bucks.But still most #3's stock will hold any coyote that comes along.

Play4 I agree this has strayed a bit. So heres my take on the lams and this is for ADC as well.

First with lams we're not dealing with a smooth face,just a wider face that distributes the pressure,it's still there. But what I like with lams over a cast jaw face is the ribbed effect and I believe it aids in holding. In a regular jaw the foot is held below the jaw well because it digs and the foot below the jaws is spilled over causing the foot to be jammed in a sense or rolled under the jaw like the hide. So if you look at this diagram below you'll still have that,but you'll also have depending on whether you have I/O lams or just one or the other a void between the lams and the jaw where the red arrows point. These voids will also fill in with hide and help IMO hold the foot and not allowing the slipping. I can see with a smooth face cast jaw the possibility for more or have a higher potential for slipping but not on a laminated jaw.At least that's what I think anyway. Maybe I'm out in left field. Who knows,I just know what works for me.

Ahhhh, Blak. Thanks for the illustration. I didnt realize what you meant by the "ribbed effect".

I like 1-1/2 coils with inside laminations for non drowning coon sets.

But i wouldnt laminate traps just for the sake of laminating.

What Blak says is correct regarding both check times....animal comfort AND the ribbed effect holding paw better that standard jaw. I can vouch for the effects of the ribbed effect...cleaning out the space in between the reg jaw and jaw lam.s when getting ready to prep traps before next season. This area usually has a bunch of fur and other debris in the space.

I like laminations mainly for the increase in strength they add to the jaws. Laminations will prevent flexing and twisting, which can lead to popped jaws and such. Of course, there are ways to prevent popped jaws, but I still like minimal flexing of the jaws and base.

So then the jaw face is perfectly smooth again right?

-----------------

Ok pretend your finger is caught in a trap. The illustration on the left shows the jaw surfaces the blue indicates your finger. If the springs on both sets of jaws are equally strong, which set of jaws could you more easily pull your finger out of? Obviously the laminated jaws.

The illustration on the right shows where the position of the foot would be guided to when the trap is center swiveled (red chain, red arrow) and the green shows the position the foot is guided to if it's not center swiveled. Again imagine your finger in the trap, where you pull your finger towards to get the least pressure from the springs/levers so it would be easier to pull your finger out? Right where the red arrow is pointing obviously.



I still say the laminations and center swiveling don't help to stop pull outs unless you add stronger springs... etc... They are just good PR and easier on the animals should you decide to sell the feet. (live market, taxidermy, etc...)

Oh and Blak, you agree then that wide flat surfaces like on the cast jaws of the MB550 and 650C reduce the holding power of the traps?

~ADC~

I see and understand your theories but, always a but, The red verses the green arrow, the red will have higher lockup of the levers. Yes? And a straight away pull verses a canted pull, Yes?

Myself I like modded traps, and enjoy these topics, carry on.

Awwwe... but the foot wouldn't actually be in that position only pulling towards that position. But even if it was the lever on the opposite side would be even higher equalizing out the pressure so to speak.



~ADC~

No offense folks, but all this laminating, 4-coiling, base-plating is an awflul lot of extra work and $$$ to go through for very little, if any, benefit. I have been using stock Bridger and Sleepy Creek traps for yotes for years and have had very few misses or pullouts, even on non-target species. I caught my first two cats this year in stock Bridger #3s and there was negligable foot damage and one of them may have been in the trap for a couple of days (had a blizzard and could not get out to check). Now, admittedly, you will get some amount of foot damage on coon and fox, but with a 24 hour check, it really doesn't pay to go through all teh hupla!

Depends on definition of good springs Judd.

I know I have had 1.75s with what i would consider adequate spring strength show noticeable slowing after addin lams.

But with you being in MT, i would imagine you are starting out with a larger and stouter model trap to begin with.

In talking with a couple of western fellows that trapped coyotes a great deal before the excellent coilspring traps we have today and the lamination craze said the main reason they started doing it was to hold summer coyotes on the damage line for extended periods, the extra springs were to power up the jaws and prevent toe catches in baked clay mud common after summer rains, one of them said if newhouse traps would have continued to be available and affordable he would never have done anything other than offset the jaws a bit on the no.4 newhouse, another said if he could have afforded mj600 traps in the needed quanities he would never have laminated at all, but the thin jawed stock coilsprings just cut to much on extened checks so he went to laminate jaws to keep them there, charlie dobbins stated he only laminated his traps after finding the 4 coil kits caused to much cutting, preferring conners springs as they backed off when the trap was in the closed position or in the case of the stronger springs laminate, center swivel works great on larger traps for me but on smaller traps i prefer them hooked to the end frame and a double swivel mid chain, stake one down and pretend you are the animal and there is no more binding than centered if the mid chain swivel is working and the chain is at least a foot long, the binding is the same whether it is the trap at a bit of an angle or the levers rotateing over and over on the ground, i run both laminated and not and can tell very little difference except for a bit of cutting as long as the check is early morning. one of the biggest benefits from all the crap we weld on our traps as far as the animals are concerned is it makes them much heavier, cutting down on jumping, and wearing them down so they rest, there is almost always visible difference in coyotes on approach and wear in the catch circle if heavy traps are used, bbt traps have them so high, so solid, and so weighed down that most coyotes just plain give up and lay down, and i know of no trap in coilspring that sized with more power and thicker smoother jaws than that one.

I ran lams on #3 Bridgers 2 coiled for a couple years with no pullouts.Started with the 4 coils last year to hold that occasional oddball catch like elbows.

As far as the newer cast jaw traps,their built to hold,adequate spring strength for the setup and locking levers. I could see slipping when springs are getting weak. As for the older cast jaw double longs their jaws flexed too much. Sent you a pm.

I like your diagram on the swivel point. Either one is good just as long as there off the bottom. That stock side swiveling isn't very good out of the corner of the trap, it doesn't always swivel freely.Off the bottom whether at the end of the base with a swivel or center is best IMO.

If your still not convinced about the lams,send me a doz. I'll do them for you no charge and try them out.

Good post Possum...longer checks and animal comfort...and not having to pick up all those pieces (older model traps) are good reasons to laminate.
I would add that extended chains to 18 inches as said by Mr. O'G and others has proven best for me.

Most summer caught ADC coyotes on extended checks melt down before the traps are even checked. So much for animal comfort. And we all know It happens just that way.

What i have done on most of my dry land canine and cat traps Is to weld a large chain link flat to the bottom of the trap frame. This link sticks out about 1/2" past the end of the frame. Here's where I connect my first J hook and swivel. I get no binding and very little swivel fouling with this hook up. If I wasn't live market trapping I wouldn't have any traps laminated.
If fact some of my best traps are the old #2 montys no need for any mods on those traps and are very foot friendly with those heavy rounded jaws.

Jeepers>>> With all these mods done to traps to hold animals, it makes me wonder what if anything the poor trapper caught 50 years ago.. I can't see how they held animals without these modified traps?? I'm not sure but I think most used Longspring traps even!!! My>My> I wonder how they ever did it !!!???

Good idea LR! I have had some #3 victors with those bases. Saw JC Connors sells them too.

~ADC~

That is a good setup lr. I've run them on a bunch of 1,75NW's once.

They did catch fur,but they lost alot too and what we have today is what trappers have found and made improvements just like anything else.Look at cars,we'd still be driving model A's if we didn't try to improve on it to what we have today,heck we probably would have 4x4's if it weren't for people looking for a better or more improved product.If you ever get the chance read Hoof Beats of a Wolfer by O'Gorman. He talks alot about what he's found with traps over the years.

blak coyote,
I Know guys that were trapping Coyote when O Gorman was just a twinkle in his fathers eye. ( before he was born ) These guys used #4 longsprings only. They trapped for a living and lived well. One gentlemen I know caught 137 Coyotes for bounty in one year and an untold number of Bobcat, Fox, and yes even Wolves. These were all caught in the Upper Penninsula of Michigan. If they lost any animals, which I'm sure they did. It wasn't because of not having modified traps.. No-one bats 100% in this game.. JMO

If all they were using was #4 dbls I'd bet lack of lams cause loss atleast on fox. I may not have been around that long,but long enough to know what a trap can do. And your right no one bats 100% but there are things you can do to get it close and mods are just part of the equation.Why do you think traps like the MB750 or CDR came out,trappers were looking for a better performing trap.


I know alot of trappers are set in there ways especially when it comes to traps or mods. Call it PC or whatever but many who went to mods have done so because they've seen improvement in function and durability. Like I've mentioned earlier, I've seen many post on here about trap failures. What I don't understand is,if a trapper is going to take the time and money to set a trap,why would he use a trap that may not hold an animal. I mean if a trapper is trapping for fox using 1,5's and theres a possibility of catching a coyote,why would you set a trap a coyote will often times get out of or completely destroy. I mean if your going to do it,do it right the first time. I didn't have internet when learning through the years and learned alot the hard way. Maybe I just have bad luck with coyotes in years past trashing un modified 1.75's or coon leaving me toes in 1,5 Blake and lams. What ever the reason,now days I have less problems. I can reset a trap after a catch without having to bend something back into shape or replacing it with a new trap maintenance. All I know is what it was like using just stock compared to now,and I will not set a stock trap anymore. If others want to learn the hard way sobiet,sometimes that's the best teacher.

I have seen the offset bases, but i havent seen the "square" ring to allow the swivel to clear the base.

And i have seen the "lay-flat" square pieces but they were mounted in the center.

The round ones by JC lets the rivet/swivel clear the base to the side.

I got into this because sometimes i think we make the newbies feel that if you dont have the tricked out expensive trap you will miss most animals.

Truth is the mods do help, but not enough where i wouldnt set an unmodified trap of the correct size.

And if I were in a position where i only had x amount of money for traps, I would buy more of the less expensive brands and just tune them.

BUT, over here in the east especially, animal welfare should be a concern so if someone does have the resources, I would definitely recommend laminations.

Lots of variables to consider.

thanks Blak!1

i have been meaning to get some of his elongated O rings to accommodate 2 rebar stakes anyway.

I am actually surprised that no (or at least that I know of) stock traps come with em.

Good post lr. And I agree.For the newbies out there educate yourself and start out with what you can afford and work from there.You'll find out what works for you and what don't. The important thing is to get out there and do it. Start with the basics,the right size trap for the intended animal and let the learning and experience for your situation dictate what you need and what you don't.

I don't think you need it on a trap unless your after coyotes, wolves, or wolverines. These animals will bite apart some traps on ocassion. Lamination of the jaws and baseplates eliminate that.
Over the years I've settled on a fully modified #2 Bridger for my coyote trapping (and thats all I use now for cats also). Our coyotes have wolf blood in them (proven by DNA test) and they are a bigger stronger jawed critter than alot of the coyotes in other areas.