Sgs - dispersal being natural movement of young to find and setup new territory.

If we stick with raccoon, skunk, squirrel, and other typical nuisance species, we aren't talking long distances.

That was why I asked how far do folks relocate from catch sites? How do they choose release sites?

Also nature is adaptable to me doesn't help if 1/2 the residents in any given 20 miles of city relocate all of thei wildlife to
The same spot on the river or green space.

We also gloss over the diseases that impact the wildlife without impacting us.

Canine distemper, parvo and others aren't a big bother to us, but for mesocarp ivories are a huge mortality factor.

My point is if not state mandated do you relocate...

A. Because the client gets the warm fuzzy "spot" was turned loose on a farm story?

B. less carcass disposal?

C. You fur trap and hope in the off season to take those animals?

D. You don't see the harm?

E. feel like killing them is a waste of the resource?

F. All of the above?

I'm not a pro kill guy, I'm a pro exclusion guy, yes I know many species vacant be excluded and when the cant say with my rock squirrels in gardens, I live trap and euthanize. If the client wants the warm fuzzy after talking to me I tell them to grab the yellow pages.

Am I an extremist? Nope but I believe in following biologically relevant literature.
Science can be wrong but too much info exists to argue the negatives of relocation.

I believe most follow relo because the business model is better and less tough homeowner discussions.

I don't believe we relocate because it is in the best interest of the resource.

As Paul said, likely most die but predators have to eat....

I'm just sayin why not put that animal down if necessary, versus all the unknowns.

Though I like Dave K's idea of a squirrel pack sack full of nuts for late fall/ early winter relo! Lol!

Also the migration or dispersal argument only works if you only relocate during the fall winter dispersal season.

Back to you....

Just for the record the racoon in the video had been poisoned come to find out . The repeated movement and sudden burst of energy was the sure tell . I have tried to deleaver sick animals in the past and was told basically will let you know if we need some . I think it does make more sense for people to do the exclusion work over just trapping . But the animals would need trapped out first . The release areas do get fur trapped heavy and haven't seen any sick animals there . Only in the areas not fur trapped I have . The early signs of a sick animal is ruffled fur and dirty animal . The out breaks I see are caused by domestic animals . TB northeast side of this state came from cattle first found in the 70s but nothing was done till they found out they could get funding . Over 20 going 30 years now the problem is still there but still only one answer shoot every deer you see . That's not working seems they might try something new like treat the TB threw winter feeding program and with laced corn and antibiotics or something . The hub of the problem is one small area around beaver lk . CWD started on a sheep farm in co I'm told but not really sure about that one . These high fence game farms seem to a breeding ground . They where catching wild hogs in fl then trucking them in and placing them in a fenced areas . Wow really didn't see a problem coming there . In these trailer parks around here there's a major stray cat problem and that's a breeding ground . These domestic animals are causing problems to the wild animals in my opion .

Bird feeders in the city would be the main cause of the sick dieing birds carry it in and there's a number things a bird carrys . Animals fighting at these bird feeders could be a major problem . Stay cat crap is the treat to most animals .

Once the animals get away from these breeding grounds I haven't seen any problems . I spend a lot of time in the woods year around hunting , trapping , frog giging , fishing , biulding habitats for ducks ,deer , making brush piles . Ect . .

Ave life span of about any animal is only like 8 months so yes there dieing like crazy but that's called natural causes

Domestic and wild animals don't mix well for ether animal .

This cat problem needs to be handed over

This is exactly why a good discussion on differences of opinion with someone like Justin are so valuable. For those of you that are not aware, Justin has worked in a lot of areas including ours. ( Well, I think actually Michigan )

And just like most of us, given a reasonably intelligent conversation, he is still willing to learn. This is what I think I know:

Raccoons: When relocated will travel up to ten miles, with five or so being the average.

Squirrels: Can smell a female in heat for one mile. If you take them more than that, they are out of luck!

Skunks: Just give them a field full of grasshoppers and they will be fine. Not big travelers.

Woodchucks; If relocating this time of the year, chances of survival is slim. ( Maybe a good alfalfa field would do it )

Opossums: Who cares? They have two litters a years up here and can have a dozen in a litter. Bad winters are a killer!

Chipmunks: Another who cares. We don't regulate chipmunk populations; God does. ( Can be said for all of them )

Most other species are let go on site or caught in killer traps to begin with. You can't exclude in northern states. That grey squirrel that you thought you excluded has just chewed in on the other side of the house, you dummy! Our largest humane society thought they knew it all. After two years, they are no longer in the exclusion business. Any disagreement? I'm all ears.

How perceptions would be different, if Procyon lotor were diurnal. God has surely blessed this bugger.

Sure Dave, make me go on Ask to find out that Procyon lotor is the raccoon. My daughter with the biology degree is watching her son play soccer so here I am, stuck with my high school education. Oh well, if that name ever pops up again I'll look like a college grad!

Oh...give it away...thanks.

I literally just spit pepsi all over this yard! Love that "ask" comment!

Heading for home, drop you some more thoughts tonight, good points too about squirrels and other chewers, or a house too run down for solid exclusion without getting too pricey. The folks still need service / removal.

Later,

Also don't want to switch topics but having worked on tb issues in Michigan for 5 years ive got a different story pesky.

Paul, my only trip to wisconsin was to chase radio collared deer during the hunting season! Also worked in the cwd barn processing samples. Good times! Oh and cheese, I ate cheese!

Dave, I'm sure everyone in Michigan already knew that>

Yes Justin, dispersal is what I was referring to.

The fact that millions of young animals take off to parts unknown every year kind of leads me to believe that relocation works to at least the level of natural selection.

Frankly, I mostly relocate skunks and that is just for convenience sake. I have had a few customers who were very serious about relocation though. I rendered the service they were hiring me for.

I know you have strong feelings on the issue but I don't think you really have any proof when saying...



You have no proof but you're dead certain.

I haven't found much scientific research on the subject but I have an open mind and wouldn't mind seeing some.

sqs, as a matter of fact the University of Illinois did a test sampling years ago where they collared a hundred raccoon. Nobody liked the results so nobody talks about it. The collared raccoons had the same amount of fatalities as the uncollared population. This was not what they were trying to prove. Oh well, we've all had stuff that backfired.

Probably not the best species for that test. Should have picked squirrels.

sgs - from past discussions I know you to be open minded, so i do apologize if I seem adamant. I have strong feelings that
what I do should be based on the best outcome for both my client and the species I'm removing/excluding/trapping. These
feelings are my own and based on my time and work and body of research that I and my wife have reviewed and things we've
worked on with radio collars. In Michigan years ago we had 40 coyote collared at any given time, 30+ raccoon and a few other
critters in lesser number. All of these were looking at home ranges related to bovine tb sampling and sentinel species.

I was able to see first hand how far these animals dispersed naturally and in that country it wasn't far. We had one lone young
female coyote who did a straight shot about 30 miles, outside of that all stayed within 10-15 miles of collared location and we
had many juveniles in the sample along with subadults and adults.

Raccoon the same thing, one lone critter I remember hearing from the G&F plane was 15 miles away from capture site, during
dispersal season. While the others, again remained close.

Now as we who work with wildlife know, trappers, hunters, biologists, etc... Not all habitat or animals are created equal so the
bigger your sample and longer your study the more you get to "know."

The same study done in WI might not yield the same results as here in NM, or in NH, which is why we see repetitive studies of
coyote home range for example. Folks know resources and genetics and climate play a role as do human provided or anthropogenic
resources, structures, etc...

My wife wrote a piece for our website that includes a more concise version of what I am trying to get across here. The studies done
are often not on nuisance wildlife species and often not done in a way that is relatable, but we can infer and until some funding goes
into studying it, that is likely the best I can do.

While I love scientific research, unless it is designed well, carried out well and doesn't have an agenda, it is hard to tell what you get.

I would just say, there are more negatives when you do poor over the relocation/translocation literature than positives, so for me the
balance goes to me favoring lethal when removal is absolutely necessary because the critter can't be excluded.

I know that for some folks, the knee jerk reaction to anyone going against relocation, is the next thing you know these folks will have
the state making me kill all of these animals and I'll have to explain to each homeowner, and then I'll have to deal with all of these carcasses
and so on.

I asked some questions up above, and other than those directly engaged, no one who relocates is answering them, which I think is a shame as we could all benefit from more discussion of these subjects which are "gray areas."

Here is our link to the ethics of relocation my wife wrote, she is far more concise than I am.

http://www.rdwildlife.com/ethics-of-relocation/

I suppose too, that with the state I reside in being pro relocation on so many species that have proven poor track records (prairie dogs, burrowing owls, black bear) that I have to wonder why folks think so highly of it.

Often there is no follow up or tagging done, so the folks who say they "know" these animals survive, have no proof either, so I guess again, I favor the body of literature out there, and assume if lit wasn't published it was due to a lack of scientific method that didn't pass scrutiny for publication. As the cost of pubs is always part of any projects proposal.

Good discussion though, I'm going to leave the TB part out Pesky, though will say that TB is a USDA VS program to keep TB from putting our market cattle, dairy products in a negative light in the world market, this costs millions and millions of dollars for even one state, so if thats what you mean, you are right about the money! If you are saying someone realized tb makes money, you are badly in need of heading up to the tb core area and visiting with some of the friends and farmers I have to get in touch with reality. The club you mention, now thats a good place to go looking, a bunch of wealthy lawyers, who have the largest deer clubs and the highest rates of tb and yet wouldn't for years let folks go in and test their deer and become part of a solution! I could go on, but would rather discuss the other.

I do have one question for you though pesky? Are you going to edit your youtube video and post about "rage virus" now that you know this animal was poisoned?

Justin

Justin,

Thank you for the discussion regarding relo. Regarding your question about some do it....

I can not speak for anyone else, but answers A and B are good reasons for me. Customers do like giving them a second chance, where possible. However, it is not difficult to discuss the reasons for cases when they are not a good fit. Most people do understand. Despite my specialization in mice and bats, I invested in land for the species that we do relocate. The is no write-off for land...but it seemed like the last piece of the puzzle to create a turnkey business.

I would love to talk more about exclusions as a solution for squirrels and raccoons...and your success with these methods. Do you mind visotors interested in learning?

Hey Justin, TB testing is something I grew up with. My dad was a cattle dealer and got orders in from all over. Interstate testing was a must but you wouldn't believe the testing for animals shipped out of the country. Since the majority were milk cows, if a cow did have TB would the pasteurizing process make it safe anyway? ( And what about drinking raw milk? )

You seem adamant because you *are* adamant. There's nothing to apologize for. lol

The only problem I see with being adamant is when a person starts believing that everyone should do things their way. They are right, the others are wrong.

What works in California might not be the best thing for Minnesota. What happens in the desert southwest might not be relevant in Maine.

Your questions seemed odd to me. Right off the bat you come across as belittling the customer who believes in relocating animals. It kind of feels like your belittling the WCO who believes in it too.

Like I said, I relocate mainly for convenience. When you're dealing with fifty or more skunks in a season relocation becomes the better part of valor. lol

It could be but I have no evidence that relocating these animals is hurting the species or any other species for that matter. That's why I'd like to see some unbiased research.

There are a couple of things that I do know though.

Every year, millions of animals relocate themselves. A certain percentage die but enough survive to keep the species going.

Another is that humans have been very successful at not only relocating but translocating animals. I remember when NH had no wild turkeys. Now we have them in every part of the state. A biologist told me that the original stock came from West Virginia.

NH has shipped fisher to other states.

Look at the success of the river otter relocations, the reintroduction of wolves in various places.

The list goes on and on.

What this tells me is that relocating wildlife isn't necessarily the death sentence that some would like me to believe.

So I'll continue to relocate skunks until I see credible evidence that I shouldn't.

sgs - definitely not belittling anyone, anyone reading this that thinks so can know that for sure right now as I state it.

I do understand the convenience factor, my issue with the customers is that as we all discuss, most don't know much about
the wildlife in their own back yard (some do), so when they are telling me what they see is best, I definitely have to scratch
my head, as they typically don't even know what these animals eat, when they give birth, etc....

Reintroduction is always done with massive amounts of study into food base and habitat. While obviously we as a country
of conservationists have been abundantly successful with many species, but some of that is due to limiting take and harvest
while planting tons of birds, mammals, etc... to overcome high mortality.

I used to give talks while in community college for the river otter project in NY, know that it was massively successful of course,
little known projects like lynx release back in the early 90's in NY failed miserably, most were hit on the road, or hoofed it back to Canada.

My current state, has a flagging and controversial wolf program, while the enviros want to blame ranchers, these animals just simply
aren't breeding and doing well.

So I'd say that while I agree, we've restored many game species and furbearer species, we've also put a ton of funding into making sure they would be successful and controlling harvest and take.

The other issue with dispersal is that if a nwco is going to use that as a reason it is normal, it has to be during dispersal time when animals are at their peak or prime, not when they are giving birth and strained already to manage their nutrition, springtime relocation would not be the time we see wildlife choosing to be subjected to a move to a novel environment where they must find new resources.

The other question we haven't discussed is, what about moving the "trash raccoon" to a new site which is close enough that it just finds the new homeowner development and starts anew with the ruckus.

Doesn't this mean we move the problem animal to create new problems and more business?

hmmm..... Maybe thats the hook! lol!

Like I say, good debate, not putting down folks doing this at all, or homeowners, but we all know homeowners are calling us as the experts, so what we tell them carries more weight and becomes the gospel if we do it right, so I worry about what we say and what it is based on.

Gotta run get try and make some income talk to ya'll later,

Justin