Mira's Nuggets


Home ~ Mission Statement ~ Trap Talk ~ ADC Forum ~ Trap Shed ~ Trap Chat
Trapper Tips ~ Links ~ Gallery ~ Basic Sets ~ Convention Calendar ~ Trapper's Humor
Fur Buyers Directory ~ Trapper's Tales ~ Words From The Past ~ Legends ~ Archives
~Catalog~

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Hop to:
#2116922 - 08/24/10 05:37 PM Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!!
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia



Wayne Pacelle of H$U$ couln't raise worms in rich soil under a manure pile. Yet , he is dictating legislation on how to raise hens which will cost producers & consumers tens of millions of dollars.

Wall Street Journal
BUSINESS
Cracking California's Egg Rules
By JEAN GUERRERO
AUGUST 19, 2010
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424...=humane+society


MODESTO, Calif.—About 150,000 hens at egg producer J.S. West Inc.
appear to have scored an upgrade.

They cluck and cackle in an air-conditioned henhouse that got a $3.2
million renovation this year. Some lay eggs in nesting areas, where
lights are dimmed. Others poise on perches with room to flap their
wings. They even have hen-style nail files in their cages.

California's egg farmers are struggling to comply with Proposition 2,
the state's new guidelines on how egg-laying chickens can be kept.

Two years after California voters approved a law designed to create
humane standards for farm animals, it isn't clear if these hens are
leading lives of luxury—or being treated cruelly.

The law, known as Proposition 2, doesn't take effect until 2015, but
it is already generating confusion among egg producers who aren't sure
if they need to get bigger cages like those at J.S. West or let the
hens roam free. As a result, few have made any changes at all.

The law mandates that egg-laying hens must be able to fully extend
their limbs, lie down and turn in a circle within their enclosures.
Michigan approved similar regulations last year, and gave egg
producers 10 years to make changes. Other states—including Ohio,
Arizona and Florida—have adopted less restrictive regulations.

The California requirements have proven resistant to uniform
interpretation. "Who knows what the law states," said Debbie Murdock,
executive director of the Association of California Egg Farmers, which
has called for clearer guidelines.

There is also ambiguity over how the law is going to be enforced, or by whom.

According to California state legislators, no decision has been made
on who will have the final say; possibilities include the Department
of Food and Agriculture and the Department of Public Health.

Now the confusion is set to be exported to neighboring states.
Responding to worries that Proposition 2 would drive egg production
away from California and result in massive out-of-state egg imports,
Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger signed legislation last month extending the
caging requirements to all eggs sold in California, no matter where
they were laid.

"Many propositions have the best of intentions, but they suffer from
the lack of thorough vetting and deliberative process necessary to
answer tough questions about how they're going to actually be
implemented and enforced," said Assemblyman Jared Huffman, who wrote
the bill extending the regulations to all eggs sold in the state in
order to level the playing field.

J.S. West spent $3.2 million to install bigger cages, known as
enriched colony systems, in one of its henhouses in Modesto, Calif.

California ranks fifth among states in egg production, with an average
of 4.9 billion eggs a year valued at $300 million. That's roughly 5%
of the nation's egg output. About a third of the eggs consumed by
Californians are from out of state, but most of those are eggs that
have been processed for other foods, such as pasta. The laws apply
only to intact eggs.

J.S. West responded to the requirements by upgrading one of its
buildings with the more spacious, furnished cages, known as enriched
colony systems.

The Humane Society of the U.S., a main sponsor of Proposition 2, says
the company made a big mistake.

"It's just a common-sense sort of view that a slightly bigger cage is
going to continue to frustrate the natural behavior of laying hens,"
said the group's president, Wayne Pacelle.

Mr. Pacelle says the only way to comply with the new laws is to go
cage-free, because, he asserts, no commercially viable cages in
existence—including the enriched colony system—give hens the room to
perform the behaviors described in the law.

According to research cited by his organization, hens need 138 square
inches each to fully stretch their wings. Enriched colony systems
provide each hen with 116 square inches per hen. The United Egg
Producers, a trade association representing most of the nation's egg
producers, recommends 67 square inches.

Egg Recall Tied to Salmonella Grows
J.S. West President Eric Benson says his company has done enough:
"These cages go way beyond the Prop. 2 requirements."

The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer.
J.S. West keeps only six hens in the traditional cages of its
unrenovated barns, but they still trample and slap each other when
moving around.

Adding to the uncertainty, the American Humane Association has
certified enriched colony housing as a humane alternative. The
American Humane Association is a nonprofit independent group founded
in 1877 with the oldest U.S. certification program for the humane
treatment of farm animals. The new cages are set to become the minimum
requirement in Europe in 2012.

J.S. West points to this as proof that its cages are big enough. Mr.
Benson says the cages are actually too big—that there is wasted space.
Despite their more spacious digs, the hens just cluster together most
of the time, Mr. Benson said.

The company is reluctant to renovate all 15 of the barns it maintains
around the state, housing a total of 1.8 million hens, until it knows
for sure the new system is going to be deemed compliant.

Mr. Pacelle's organization regularly exposes animal cruelty through
informants and photographic evidence from puppy mills, dog-fighting
facilities, and more. He says he's prepared to do the same when it
comes to California egg producers who continue to house their hens in
illegal cages come 2015. Violators of the new law can be prosecuted
with a $1,000 fine or a 180-day jail sentence.

John Lewis Jr., president of Farmer John Eggs in Bakersfield, says he
doesn't know what to do with his small, family-run company's 600,000
hens. He doesn't want to put them in a cage-free environment because,
he says, they would be running around in their own feces and he would
have to feed them antibiotics.

Plus, when they are on the ground, he said, "If something scares them,
they all run into a corner and pile on top of each other and suffocate
very quickly."

There's also a pecking order to account for, he says. In cages, he can
group little hens with little hens to keep big hens from killing them.
Not so in a cage-free environment, he says.

But he doesn't want to put them in enriched colony systems, either.
His family can't afford investing in a system that may end up being
unacceptable.

Ultimately, J.S. West's Mr. Benson says, hens are simple creatures and
don't need much to be happy.

"It's very difficult to underestimate the intelligence of a chicken," he said.


Using Pacelle as a measuring stick, hens are smarter then he and his emotional coleagues.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2116935 - 08/24/10 05:43 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Hupurest
Unregistered

ha ha. I hope no one send those clowns eggs...

stupid morons....
they cut off water to produce farms, are ending eggs....
hopefully, they put themselves out of food and water and shrivel up and die.

Top
#2116964 - 08/24/10 06:03 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
BuckNE
Unregistered

I'm hoping nobody ships to them and when they are paying $10 a dozen for eggs and pitching a conniption fit the rest of us can sit back and laugh at them for being California Stupid.

Top
#2117172 - 08/24/10 08:11 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
The veterinarians & the folks who spend a lifetime practicing animal husbandry are being overshadowed by know nothing ARA fanatics who culture spineless politicians into sponsoring these initiatives. The consumer will pay dearly for believing the ara propaganda.


Edited by Mira Trapper (08/24/10 08:11 PM)
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117327 - 08/24/10 09:34 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
BuckNE
Unregistered

Originally Posted By: Mira Trapper
The veterinarians & the folks who spend a lifetime practicing animal husbandry are being overshadowed by know nothing ARA fanatics who culture spineless politicians into sponsoring these initiatives. The consumer will pay dearly for believing the ara propaganda.


The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote. They almost got the public land trapping issue on the ballot in Montana. Didn't have quite enough signatures on the petition, but it was too close for comfort.

Top
#2117603 - 08/25/10 07:01 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: BuckNE
Originally Posted By: Mira Trapper
The veterinarians & the folks who spend a lifetime practicing animal husbandry are being overshadowed by know nothing ARA fanatics who culture spineless politicians into sponsoring these initiatives. The consumer will pay dearly for believing the ara propaganda.


The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote. They almost got the public land trapping issue on the ballot in Montana. Didn't have quite enough signatures on the petition, but it was too close for comfort.



When such things happen the folks who have evolved into the best possible managers of domesticated & wildlife animals plus the veternarians who made a career of raising healthy animals get pushed aside by emotionally driven folks that have NO concept of animal husbandry.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117622 - 08/25/10 07:22 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Aleman Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/09
Loc: St Louis, MO
Does anyone read this, or do you just see the name Pacelle and think its all bad. "The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer." 48 square feet for 60 hens???? My chicken house was larger and I had less hens, and they had the whole farmlot to wander. That is the only humane way to raise chickens. Amazing how prejudice some of the posters on this site are, I'll bet none of us raise chickens that way!
_________________________
http://penrosepicobrewery.blogspot.com/

Top
#2117632 - 08/25/10 07:29 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Does anyone read this, or do you just see the name Pacelle and think its all bad. "The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer." 48 square feet for 60 hens???? My chicken house was larger and I had less hens, and they had the whole farmlot to wander. That is the only humane way to raise chickens. Amazing how prejudice some of the posters on this site are, I'll bet none of us raise chickens that way!


I've been on a lot of commercial chicken farms. When I was in high school the FFA used to earn money by catching chickens and loading them on trucks. I never saw a single cage, the chickens were raised on the floors of very large sheds. There were huge flocks, but they were free to walk around, warm and had plenty of food and water.

Do you believe everything Pacelle says?


Edited by Ole Hawkeye (08/25/10 07:30 AM)
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2117655 - 08/25/10 07:50 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Tsarevna Offline
"Gerty"

Registered: 09/23/07
Loc: Oregon
Why did Arnold sign the bill anyway? confused
_________________________


How to Clean Skin a Beaver Video

Top
#2117678 - 08/25/10 08:35 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Aleman Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/09
Loc: St Louis, MO
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.
_________________________
http://penrosepicobrewery.blogspot.com/

Top
#2117691 - 08/25/10 08:52 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
Quote:
I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side,


Well then it shouldn't be hard for you to go through Mira's posts and give us an example of a distortion that he has posted, should it?

We already know H$U$ and Pacelle, that you seem to think so highly of, has never distorted the truth.
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2117699 - 08/25/10 09:00 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.


I didn't write the article Aleman but I do know that Wayne Pacelle has stated publically that he hopes to end the domestication of animals in one generation. Making stuff to expensive to buy and to raise is the path he has chosen. I also know that Wayne Pacelle stated publically that the H$U$ most likely hired him because he is good at making stuff up. I also know Veternarians questioned on H$U$ propaganda feel farmers & ranchers are in tune with animal husbandry while H$U$ is not.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117707 - 08/25/10 09:04 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.



The last thing I am in life is a liar Aleman but you seem to like to distort that TRUTH. What you class as vengence is a lie. I am offering folks an opportunity to take note of how to see where ARA propaganda has made animal use a evil enterprise if folks make money from it.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117710 - 08/25/10 09:10 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Does anyone read this, or do you just see the name Pacelle and think its all bad. "The new cages are four feet wide and 12 feet long for 60 hens each,
providing about twice as much space as traditional "battery" systems,
in which up to 10 hens are kept in an area the size of a large drawer." 48 square feet for 60 hens???? My chicken house was larger and I had less hens, and they had the whole farmlot to wander. That is the only humane way to raise chickens. Amazing how prejudice some of the posters on this site are, I'll bet none of us raise chickens that way!


I've been on a lot of commercial chicken farms. When I was in high school the FFA used to earn money by catching chickens and loading them on trucks. I never saw a single cage, the chickens were raised on the floors of very large sheds. There were huge flocks, but they were free to walk around, warm and had plenty of food and water.

Do you believe everything Pacelle says?



And once they are maintained in that open barn concept as meat hens Pacelle and company attack those farmers for the debeaking process in the hopes of ending the open space application of such operations. Yet we know that debeaking is needed because chicks and hens do attack and kill their mates on a regular bases.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117712 - 08/25/10 09:13 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
Aleman, I just reviewed some of your past posts. Your building quite a track record of defending AR and putting livestock producers in a bad light. Do you have an agenda?
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2117726 - 08/25/10 09:23 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
Quote:
I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side,


Well then it shouldn't be hard for you to go through Mira's posts and give us an example of a distortion that he has posted, should it?

We already know H$U$ and Pacelle, that you seem to think so highly of, has never distorted the truth.


What Aleman classes as vengence is my ability to point out fallacies within Wayne's propaganda and point out that his game plan is to end all animal husbandry in wildlife or domestic managent of animals. Thanks for noting that Aleman made an Ad Homiem attack without one iota of proof or supportive commentary which I could answer to, Hawkeye.



Aleman might class those factors as vengeful distortion but the truth is the egg folk had to spend 3 million dollars on H$U$ schemes. Yet Pacelle is still not supportive because his plan is to end domestication of hens and make them to expensive for farmers to raise & consumers not as likely to buy dairy and egg products due to increased costs.

As for free range. Overall that is the worst science that could be offered to feed 6.5 billion people. Harder to control disease & more likely to add most polluant values back into our rivers, lakes & streams as those billions of hens run free range instead of controlled environments of large chicken barns.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117728 - 08/25/10 09:25 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
Aleman, I just reviewed some of your past posts. Your building quite a track record of defending AR and putting livestock producers in a bad light. Do you have an agenda?



He certainly never did much more than distort the issue and offer an adhomiem attack with no supportive debate that could be challenged.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117741 - 08/25/10 09:35 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Hello Hawkeye. You seem to be onto something there. Notice what he had to say about some condemnation points I made about Ruckus.

Originally Posted By: Aleman http://www.trapperman.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2112391
Mira,
When you argue a point, try to use logic in your arguement.

[color:#000099]"Actually these self righteous wing nuts thrive on hate mongering THE people who use the earth to support life. They also feel they can build up themselves as super heroes by dragging everyone else through the mud & slime."

This says nothing to prove anything, except you think you can convince others by name calling. Ain't saying these people are right, just saying your showing how stupid you are.
[/color]

The hit and run ad homiem purveyor never did answer this post which I made in pointing out why I have a problem with folks making a living off animal use being hate mongered by folks like ruckus..



I made a obvious point in my statement regarding the reason ruckus do hate monger folks making economic gain on this planet. For that effort you indicate I am stupid and in so doing without any counter debate, you have done what you accused me of. In fact you even went so far as to make the remark that you ain't saying these people are right but that I am stupid for making the point that they are showing themselves to be self righteous hypocrits. In fact their use of the internet in offering their game plan shows how selectively hypocritical they are.


If he wishes to appear reasonable maybe he should do better then he has in these two cases.


Edited by Mira Trapper (08/25/10 09:39 AM)
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117768 - 08/25/10 09:53 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
Aleman also said;

Quote:
Worms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can be rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.


Well, since you worked for the Forest service yu must be aware that each area is alloted no more cow calf pairs than the land will support, and there is usually several water sourced on each allotment. The land is not overgrazed and abused.

Why in the world should a rancher buy you a beer? And he did pay more of your salary than a guy in a penthouse in New York City. If you didn't know that the ranchers pay the government per head per day for grazing rights, you either don't know as much as you want us to think you do, or you are passing mis-information.

Once again, I will ask, what's your agenda?
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2117797 - 08/25/10 10:05 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
And then there was this little gem from Aleman;
Quote:
Might explain a few of them, but to lump all members of PETA and HSUS into this disorder is total lunacy. Just like saying all trappers are masochists.


Total lunacy? No, I can lump them all together, they all want to take my right to hunt and trap away from me. Don't they lump all of us together?
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2117872 - 08/25/10 11:02 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
http://www.trapperman.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2040626


You stated this Aleman.

I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can beWorms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.


Why did you duck my reply and avoid the reason I made the thread
The real goal, Bankrupt farmers. Increase costs

Both worms and fertilizing cattle ,sheep or any other ungulate increase the variety of soil nutrients and microscopic organisms. In fact that variety allows for better soil conditions. As a trapper I have often had farmers offer me a beer in their homes or at public functions but maybe it is because they know I don't drink. Bottom line is a farmer or rancher that wants weight gain must have grazing land to get those gains. It is Stupid to put animals on over grazed land. That point is obvious and the person who hates cattle so badly has no understanding of how world food production can not be best served without domesticated animals such as sheep & cattle.




Maybe now you might like to do better then insinuating I am vengefully distorting the truth and am stupid??. BTW, Hawkeye has correctly noted the same thing as me. Too many animals do not gain weight so your claims about ungulate herding by ranchers is a fallacy since they are in the market to increase poundage to increase profitt margins. Worms eating soil doesn't feed families of humans by the way, so what was your point? More importantly ,how does it bare witness against the thread header "The real Goal is to Bankrupt farmers and the scondary observation that making animal provided food more expensive makes it less obtainable and thus more likely to be Pacelle's game from the getgo. Afterall he is the one calling for the end of domesticating animals in ONE GENERATION.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117895 - 08/25/10 11:17 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Aleman Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/09
Loc: St Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: Mira Trapper
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.



The last thing I am in life is a liar Aleman but you seem to like to distort that TRUTH. What you class as vengence is a lie. I am offering folks an opportunity to take note of how to see where ARA propaganda has made animal use a evil enterprise if folks make money from it.


And just what documentation do tou have of his ability to raise earthworms. That is pure propaganda on your part. Sink to his level, you are no better than he is. Cut out the editorial comments if you are merely doing as you say.
_________________________
http://penrosepicobrewery.blogspot.com/

Top
#2117902 - 08/25/10 11:24 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Aleman Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/04/09
Loc: St Louis, MO
Originally Posted By: Mira Trapper
http://www.trapperman.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2040626


You stated this Aleman.

I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can beWorms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.


Why did you duck my reply and avoid the reason I made the thread
The real goal, Bankrupt farmers. Increase costs

Both worms and fertilizing cattle ,sheep or any other ungulate increase the variety of soil nutrients and microscopic organisms. In fact that variety allows for better soil conditions. As a trapper I have often had farmers offer me a beer in their homes or at public functions but maybe it is because they know I don't drink. Bottom line is a farmer or rancher that wants weight gain must have grazing land to get those gains. It is Stupid to put animals on over grazed land. That point is obvious and the person who hates cattle so badly has no understanding of how world food production can not be best served without domesticated animals such as sheep & cattle.




Maybe now you might like to do better then insinuating I am vengefully distorting the truth and am stupid??. BTW, Hawkeye has correctly noted the same thing as me. Too many animals do not gain weight so your claims about ungulate herding by ranchers is a fallacy since they are in the market to increase poundage to increase profitt margins. Worms eating soil doesn't feed families of humans by the way, so what was your point? More importantly ,how does it bare witness against the thread header "The real Goal is to Bankrupt farmers and the scondary observation that making animal provided food more expensive makes it less obtainable and thus more likely to be Pacelle's game from the getgo. Afterall he is the one calling for the end of domesticating animals in ONE GENERATION.


If you expect me to believe that no rancher at any time has not overgrazed because it would hurt their profits, you are far more ignorant than you appear in these forums. It is easy to drive thru the cattle grounds and see pastures damaged by overgrazing by the actual plants growing there. But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with. Net result, you sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side. If we pick our battles carefully, we can win the war. If we shoot nilly willy at the openant, we will loose.
_________________________
http://penrosepicobrewery.blogspot.com/

Top
#2117911 - 08/25/10 11:30 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Quote:
Of course not, but I do know that egg laying hens are kept in very small cages, and this is not the right way to raise chickens. By the way, I spend an extra 50 cents to a buck for free range eggs.
And I don't believe everything that Mira says either. Most people with that kind of vengence distort the truth to support their side, and I'm also pretty sure the guy could grow worms in the conditions given.



Quote:
The last thing I am in life is a liar Aleman but you seem to like to distort that TRUTH. What you class as vengeance is a lie. I am offering folks an opportunity to take note of how to see where ARA propaganda has made animal use an evil enterprise if folks make money from it.


[/quote] Aleman =And just what documentation do tou have of his ability to raise earthworms. That is pure propaganda on your part. Sink to his level, you are no better than he is. Cut out the editorial comments if you are merely doing as you say.[quote]


WHOW!!!!!!!! Is that all you can come up with??? I have used that hyperbole/analogy because it suits Pacelle's ignorance of large-scale husbandry as a rancher/foul barn expert.His dismissal of veterinarians who actually practice such animal husbandry is well documented. You trying to appear childish or is it a natural for you??? Is protecting H$USites
and denigration of animal husbandry experts plus veterinarians & wildlife biologists that important to you??
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117917 - 08/25/10 11:32 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
Why would a cattleman overgraze an area? It wouldn't add a penny to his bottom line, in fact it would cost him money. Each allotment is assigned a specific amount of livestock for a specific amount of time, when that time is up the cattle are moved to a new area.
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2117925 - 08/25/10 11:37 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
Originally Posted By: Aleman
[ But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with. Net result, you sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side. If we pick our battles carefully, we can win the war. If we shoot nilly willy at the openant, we will loose.


And your spreading "overgrazing" propaganda, when you have no scientific documentation will sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side, but maybe that is your objective.
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2117927 - 08/25/10 11:38 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Aleman]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Aleman
Originally Posted By: Mira Trapper
http://www.trapperman.com/forum/ubbthrea...tml#Post2040626


You stated this Aleman.

I spent many long hours building fences so that cattle can beWorms do more for araeting soil, and digesting dead plant material than any ungulate. And while your general rules of grazing are true, but are not followed on the range lands in the western USA. That land is truly abused by the cattlemen and shepards while being subsidized by the US taxpayer. They put there herds out on the land, say they are in an area where its 160 acres to a cow/calf. You have 100 scare miles, hence theoritcal room for 400 cows with calves. The cows won't travel too far from water, so now you have 400 cow/calf pairs grazing on only 25 square miles. The land is overgrazed and abused. Having worked for the Forest Service out west, rotated and/or fenced out of special places. Not one rancher so much as bought me a beer or paid any more of my salary than some guy in a penthouse in New York City.


Why did you duck my reply and avoid the reason I made the thread
The real goal, Bankrupt farmers. Increase costs

Both worms and fertilizing cattle ,sheep or any other ungulate increase the variety of soil nutrients and microscopic organisms. In fact that variety allows for better soil conditions. As a trapper I have often had farmers offer me a beer in their homes or at public functions but maybe it is because they know I don't drink. Bottom line is a farmer or rancher that wants weight gain must have grazing land to get those gains. It is Stupid to put animals on over grazed land. That point is obvious and the person who hates cattle so badly has no understanding of how world food production can not be best served without domesticated animals such as sheep & cattle.




Maybe now you might like to do better then insinuating I am vengefully distorting the truth and am stupid??. BTW, Hawkeye has correctly noted the same thing as me. Too many animals do not gain weight so your claims about ungulate herding by ranchers is a fallacy since they are in the market to increase poundage to increase profitt margins. Worms eating soil doesn't feed families of humans by the way, so what was your point? More importantly ,how does it bare witness against the thread header "The real Goal is to Bankrupt farmers and the scondary observation that making animal provided food more expensive makes it less obtainable and thus more likely to be Pacelle's game from the getgo. Afterall he is the one calling for the end of domesticating animals in ONE GENERATION.


If you expect me to believe that no rancher at any time has not overgrazed because it would hurt their profits, you are far more ignorant than you appear in these forums. It is easy to drive thru the cattle grounds and see pastures damaged by overgrazing by the actual plants growing there. But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with. Net result, you sway people who are in the middle of the road to the other side. If we pick our battles carefully, we can win the war. If we shoot nilly willy at the openant, we will loose.




Excuse me for pointing out your claim was that worms are more important than ungulates in fertilizing and maintaining soil. You be eating a lot of worm steaks have you? In fact H$U$ites are trying to destroy all domestication of ungulates. Your commentary is not very well advised when it comes to feeding people meat. In fact H$US is making a lot of the same case you are in that regard and yet todays markets are filled with well meated animals who had to have been predominately grazing healthy lands.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117932 - 08/25/10 11:40 AM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
Why would a cattleman overgraze an area? It wouldn't add a penny to his bottom line, in fact it would cost him money. Each allotment is assigned a specific amount of livestock for a specific amount of time, when that time is up the cattle are moved to a new area.




This is a DUUUHHHHH moment though isn't it Hawkeye??
Of course your point is validated by the fact that ranchers can ill afford to overgraze because the ungulate looses weight quickly under those conditions. .


Edited by Mira Trapper (08/25/10 11:41 AM)
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2117960 - 08/25/10 12:01 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
Hupurest
Unregistered

Originally Posted By: BuckNE


The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.


Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???

They also did it with the gay marriage, except it worked against them, and a judge overturned it.


What a cesspool of worthless garbage california is.

I hope they can't afford the food they are allowed to produce there, shut off all their water,
problem is though, that the nutjobs just move to another state and start all over again, until that state is ruined, then move again...repeat process.

Top
#2118044 - 08/25/10 01:17 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Hupurest
Originally Posted By: BuckNE


The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.


Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???

They also did it with the gay marriage, except it worked against them, and a judge overturned it.



Seems more like a case of the courts over-ruling public will. That will galvanized into protecting the term marriage as a man & woman entering matrimony while gays could enter matrimony as a civil union. The danger for folks who view Religious values within the term marriage is the next step will be for government to demand ministers,Imams,priests & Rabi marry couples even though they feel such marriage is not sanctioned by Christian, Jewish or Moslem clerics. An example of such demands happens when Drs & Nurses who are faith bound by their religious beliefs are forced to perform abortions. Threats by hospitals are becoming more prevalent today even though the original framers of Abortion laws made guarantees against such high-handed approach by hospitals.





Edited by Mira Trapper (08/25/10 01:18 PM)
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2118049 - 08/25/10 01:23 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
BuckNE
Unregistered

Originally Posted By: Hupurest
Originally Posted By: BuckNE


The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.


Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???



No. That would be unconstitutional. And as much as I disagree with the wisdom, and the lack of sensitivity and common decency in building the mosque there, I firmly believe in the RIGHT to build it there.

Top
#2118052 - 08/25/10 01:26 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Hupurest
Unregistered

Is banning trapping not violating my rights to the "pusuit of happiness?"

I am sure we could find someone who could "interpret" the living document, the freedom of religion, it is free to practice it, but maybe not free to do it whereever you please...
If my religion is Nudism, can I practice it in public places???

Top
#2118064 - 08/25/10 01:39 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: BuckNE

The danger of initiatives in these kinds of issues is that they don't NEED politicians to sponsor them. All the antis have to do is get X number of signatures on a petition, and it goes on the ballot for a state-wide vote.


Can we do this to move or stop that mosque???

[/quote]

Quote:
No. That would be unconstitutional. And as much as I disagree with the wisdom, and the lack of sensitivity and common decency in building the mosque there, I firmly believe in the RIGHT to build it there.


I agree ,it is their right. However,it is also their will to cause a afront to the folks who regonize the Cordoba house naming is a deliberate encouragement to Islamic terrorists who know perfectally well the name means we "WON" on 9/11.


http://witcombe.sbc.edu/sacredplaces/cordoba.html
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2118074 - 08/25/10 01:51 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Tsarevna]
Okie Farmer Offline
trapper

Registered: 05/30/08
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: Tsarevna
Why did Arnold sign the bill anyway? confused


It was ballot box legislation, no bill to sign. They gathered enough signatures on a petition to get it placed on the ballot.

Top
#2118075 - 08/25/10 01:53 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Okie Farmer]
BuckNE
Unregistered

Originally Posted By: Okie Farmer
Originally Posted By: Tsarevna
Why did Arnold sign the bill anyway? confused


It was ballot box legislation, no bill to sign. They gathered enough signatures on a petition to get it placed on the ballot.


But Arnold DID sign the legislation that requires anyone exporting eggs to California to meet the same requirements.

Top
#2118078 - 08/25/10 01:55 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
Hupurest
Unregistered

Originally Posted By: BuckNE


But Arnold DID sign the legislation that requires anyone exporting eggs to California to meet the same requirements.


which I hope no one does, and just stops exporting eggs to Cali....
rather than increase OUR costs, so a chicken can be air conditioned...

Top
#2118082 - 08/25/10 01:58 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: ]
Ohio Andy Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/14/08
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Hupurest
Originally Posted By: BuckNE


But Arnold DID sign the legislation that requires anyone exporting eggs to California to meet the same requirements.


which I hope no one does, and just stops exporting eggs to Cali....
rather than increase OUR costs, so a chicken can be air conditioned...



The arrogance of californistan never ceases to amaze me. Your laws don't govern me, so shove 'em!
_________________________
Andy

Top
#2118093 - 08/25/10 02:02 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Aleman
Quote:
If you expect me to believe that no rancher at any time has not overgrazed because it would hurt their profits, you are far more ignorant than you appear in these forums. It is easy to drive thru the cattle grounds and see pastures damaged by overgrazing by the actual plants growing there. But instead of trying to help, all you can do is glorify everything that your enemy disagrees with.


Gee Aleman. Just because I find your claims to be faulty, it does not make me ignorant. In fact pretending that a rancher who doesn't abide by the rule of grazing healthy lands on your part is strange or are you still ticked that they never gave you a beer??? ..


Edited by Mira Trapper (08/25/10 02:47 PM)
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2118137 - 08/25/10 02:31 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Ole Hawkeye Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Loc: Oregon
I was just about to ask Aleman to explain why he thought any rancher should be obligated to buy him a beer and to see if he would admit he was passing false information when he said a rancher hadn't paid more of his salary than a guy in a penthouse in New York City.

Just like Wayne Pacelle, passes false information, then when he's called on it he defocuses and want to discuss a comment about raising worms in a manure pile.
_________________________
It takes 43 muscles to frown, 17 to smile, but only 3 for a proper trigger squeeze.

Top
#2118160 - 08/25/10 02:45 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Ole Hawkeye]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Originally Posted By: Ole Hawkeye
I was just about to ask Aleman to explain why he thought any rancher should be obligated to buy him a beer and to see if he would admit he was passing false information when he said a rancher hadn't paid more of his salary than a guy in a penthouse in New York City.

Just like Wayne Pacelle, passes false information, then when he's called on it he defocuses and want to discuss a comment about raising worms in a manure pile.



Maybe he couldn't abide the taste of his own brewery. Pretending the hyperbole I offered wasn't poking fun at Pacelle's ignorance of animal husbandry makes me wonder what his motives really are??
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2118317 - 08/25/10 04:25 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
Just as well they don't bother to build the barns because some folks wouldn't be able to afford the increase in prices evcen though conventional cages have provided society with billions of low cost eggs and hens do not know the difference.

Feedstuffs Foodlink
Ohio compromise may have claimed its first victim
By Rod Smith
August 23, 2010
http://www.feedstuffs.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=Publishing&mod=Publications::Article&mid=AA01E1C62E954234AA0052ECD5818EF4&tier=4&id=925B62B44D6343FA9E71C2F930A97C8F

The animal care compromise between agriculture interests in Ohio and
The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) apparently has claimed
its first victim: a planned egg farm in western Ohio that would have
been a conventional cage housing system.

In an e-mail from Ohio Gov. Ted Strickland's office last week,
Feedstuffs was advised that Hi-Q Egg Products is not "a currently
permitted facility" and that if and when it becomes fully permitted,
the agreement's rules will be in place that ban building new
conventional cage housing.

The company, therefore, would not qualify to be grandfathered in under
the agreement's terms, the governor's office said.

Hi-Q ownership did not respond to a request for comment in time for this story.

Hi-Q is planned as a 15-barn, 6 million-hen complex on a 437-acre site
near West Mansfield, Ohio, in Union County that would be the largest
egg farm in the state
. However, its permitting has been stalled by
county commissioners who have not signed off on a permit for the
company to build a road connecting a highway to the farm.

Commissioners have also hesitated over their concerns about the farm's
impact on the environment.

The Ohio compromise was reached earlier this year (Feedstuffs, July
5), and, among other things, it bans the state from issuing permits
for new conventional cage housing but grandfathers in existing cage
operations and lets owners expand, modernize and pass on to relatives
those existing operations.

It also has provisions for sow and veal calf housing that ban
individual stalls for those animals on a phase-out time table.

For its part, HSUS agreed not to carry a petition to the Ohio ballot
this fall that, if adopted by voters, would have imposed much stricter
requirements for housing hens and livestock.

Strickland recently told Feedstuffs that the agreement lets Ohio
agriculture go forward
with more predictability and stability
(Feedstuffs, Aug. 16).


Going forward while blocking the ability to raise animals as farmers found to be best methodology.
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
#2119785 - 08/26/10 02:24 PM Re: Pacelle couldn't raise a worm in a manure pile!!!! [Re: Mira Trapper]
Mira Trapper Offline
trapper

Registered: 09/17/07
Loc: Cape Breton Island Nova Scotia
More info to show just how wrong folks are if they think the end of all animal farming isn't behind costly emotionally driven H$U$b type attacks against animal products is. Hope I don't appear to ignorant , stupid and distortive i am in using their own words to prove my point!!!


2010 World Farm Animals Day theme (wfad.org)‏

12:53 PM




World Farm Animals Day
October 2, 2010
http://www.worldfarmanimalsday/actioncenter/theme10.htm

2010 World Farm Animals Day Theme
Holding Animal Agribusiness Accountable

In addition to promoting a vegan lifestyle, a primary goal of World
Farm Animals Day is to expose the inherent cruelties of animal
agriculture.
This year, we are imploring activists to take this
element a step further by drawing attention to animal agribusiness’s
corruption, unethical marketing practices, and questionable government
relations.


Farm Animal Rights Movement (FARM) will be engaging in media blitzes
to reveal to public the ways that animal agribusiness manipulates the
government, institutions, and a well-meaning public in order to sell
more of their cruel products
. Activists can take advantage of the
national attention in order to locally support the local strategy.

Coming shortly, we will post a list of addresses of the offices of
animal agricultural business associations and headquarters. Activists
should stage spirited, media-worthy protests outside of these offices.
Read our tips on staging a demonstration.

Also on its way is a new section within the website that will inform
the public about animal agribusiness’s violations of the well-being of
animals, humans, and the earth. Check back frequently as we post more
information on how to integrate this year’s theme into your
activities!
_________________________

Mac Leod Motto

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  tmrschessie