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#1632322 - 12/03/09 04:17 PM Re: Marten thread [Re: ]
mtbadger Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 2293
Loc: Montana
Has anybody else caught a collared animal???

Gulo did you have any collared animals you were following???
_________________________
Ordinary men can do extrodinary things....

Always looking for Bridger #3OS and 1.65OS

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#1632417 - 12/03/09 05:11 PM Re: Marten thread [Re: ]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 116
Loc: Idaho
Hey yukon254 and all you other Martes fanatics. See the thread on the TrapperTalk today from Marbleyes (thread link above from Hupurest)? Case in point, precisely. On the other hand, maybe it was still within it's home range?

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#1632438 - 12/03/09 05:18 PM Re: Marten thread [Re: Gulo]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 116
Loc: Idaho
Gulo did you have any collared animals you were following???

mtbadger...

Never did have any collared marten that were captured elsewhere, to my knowledge. Had some pretty weird recaptures in faraway places of moose, brown bears, black bears, Himalayan bears, otter, wolves, and wolverine. Only time I transmittered any marten was 30 years ago down here in Idaho (implant transmitters that we were experimenting with; to my knowledge, the first time they were ever used; mainly on otter and mink, however).

On the other hand, maybe in my next life?

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#1635719 - 12/05/09 03:02 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: ]
trapped4ever Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 31
Loc: alaska
In regards to the mention of, the status unknown marten, on NE Chichagof, I may have some input. I've trapped the area for 27 years, and was around before,during, and after these studies. I sold fish and game my carcasses, for a few years, for their studies. During their studies I harvested a lot of both ear tagged, and radio collared marten, as did other trappers in the area. The first thing we noticed right away, about the collars, was that they ruined the fur, wearing a "ring" around the neck. Then, we started noticing all the collared marten were in poor health, and very skinny. A few, the collars had even worn thru the skin and into the muscle, causeing infection. From the general health of all the radio collared marten I trapped, I suspect most of the status unknown marten died as a result of the collaring. At the time ,early to mid 90's, I recall weighing some collars and finding they were 1/4, to 1/6, of the martens body weight!! Thats like strapping 40 or 50 pounds around my neck and expecting me to run down dinner. This fish and game study was quite inaccurate, as to their population estimation. Biologists told me the NE portion of the island, a small portion of my line, had around 30 to 40 marten total, in an area where I harvested 170 that season. Not an exact science I guess. Anyways, I just had to jump in at the mention of my "home line".

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#1635829 - 12/05/09 07:09 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: trapped4ever]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 116
Loc: Idaho
Because of that study (NE Chich) and others, that is precisely why I'm a fan of implant transmitters for mustelids. I would not use external, collar-type transmitters on any of the weasel family, even if the transmitter package was less than 3% of the body weight. Period. Just ain't worth it. I agree with trapped4ever on this particular study, although most other marten studies throughout NA have really increased our collective knowledge of what makes populations tick.

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#1635950 - 12/05/09 09:10 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: Gulo]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14673
Loc: McGrath, AK
Trapped4ever. Welcome to the forum and thanks for your input.

Also, please include your location in your profile.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#1635964 - 12/05/09 09:20 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: Gulo]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 445
Loc: Yukon
Very interesting, They did put transmitters on the marten in the Watson Lake study as well, Im not sure what kind but a good friend who is a long time trapper helped so i will ask him. Our fish/game try to keep this pretty quiet but at a meeting with outfitters it came out here a year ago, and that is how many caribou that they kill when they collar them. A big concern is the after effects (how many die later due to stress) I guess no one knows. Not sure how many on here saw the story of the trapper in BC that was all of a sudden overrun with snowmachines on his line?? I guess guys that like hill climbing found his hills! I saw pictures of it and the number of machines that was there every weekend was unreal! well he started finding large numbers of dead critters, everything from marten to moose that died because of stress. I mean no disrespect to anyone but a lot of times it seems that some of the conclusions that they come up with and will print after these studies make no sense. I went in yesterday to get my wolverine sealed and right in the main F/G office there was a map showing the different caribou herds in Yukon (this study is very recent, they wanted to know the ranges of each herd as well as population etc,) anyway this map showed caribou all over the Toobally lake country, it is my lower trapline and my fishing lodge is there, I have spent the better part of 30 years there and feel very confident I know it better than any person alive and there are no caribou within 40 miles! In all the time Ive spent there I have seen a biologist there twice and a C/O once! The bear biologist here in Yukon just had a write up in the paper about how her study of bears (grizzly) went in the southern lakes region this summer, even though she is new here and no one had ever studied bear in this area before she said the numbers are declining drastically! now I live in the area but admittedly dont spend a lot of time here but of course know many who do, and this year everyone you talk to says they have seen more bear than ever before?? then they had more trouble calls than ever too. her findings were there were now to many ATV trails in the area making access for hunters to easy! We know the exact number of grizzly killed each year and the number is very low! I could go on about the bear hunt in BC and the fiasco that followed but will stop here, told you guys this stuff bothered me! SORRY!
_________________________
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#1635974 - 12/05/09 09:28 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: yukon254]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14673
Loc: McGrath, AK
Odd conclusions from available or questionable data is exactly what started our wolverine survey project. At least we have some previous data as a basline. Sounds as though that may not be the case in your area.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#1636100 - 12/05/09 11:00 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: white17]
yukon254 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/31/08
Posts: 445
Loc: Yukon
W17 i keep forgetting, if you send me your add. i will send you that wolverine info. I have an extra yukon trappers manual and will send you the whole book, probably nothing new for you in it but will give you an idea of how we do some things here.
_________________________
do unto others as you would have them do unto you

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#1636159 - 12/05/09 11:47 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: yukon254]
alaska viking Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 1828
Loc: juneau, alaska
Gulo, the white-foot marten was, surprisingly enough, traveling south, away from it's previous home. I was told this particular animal was a real pest, getting caught multiple times, hence the re-locate.
_________________________
Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
Carl Sagan.

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#1636393 - 12/05/09 02:06 PM Re: Marten thread [Re: alaska viking]
piperniner Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1275
Loc: Alaska
Y254 - Interesting post regarding snowmachine's, Game, studies, etc. Similiar problems everywhere I guess.

Oh - you really need to be careful about expressing your opinions. Just Follow my lead in keeping them to yourself.


Edited by piperniner (12/05/09 04:26 PM)

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#1637788 - 12/06/09 12:00 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: piperniner]
trapped4ever Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 31
Loc: alaska
The NE Chichagof study did gather a lot of info, I didn't mean to imply it was a total waste. I stayed in contact with F&G throughout the study, and sold them carcasses at $3 each. These carcasses were aged, and the females were examined to see how many kits were being produced. Some den sites were monitored, and telemetry was used, to try and determine home ranges. A lot of this info was interesting, but not necessarily accurate. However, the diet info gathered through isotope analysis, throughout the year, was interesting. Diet change thru the seasons is drastic. I have some of the finding on paper, packed away somewhere. Maybe when I figure out these computers, scanners, etc. I can post some of this info. Lots of info on the habits of island marten, not necessarily all that accurate for other parts of the state. Some of the Southeast guys may find this info interesting.
Incidentally, someone earlier in the thread was mentioning marten populations being low in SE alaska, SW Yukon, and NW British Columbia. I have noticed a downward trend for the last 3 or 4 years. Last year being the lowest concentration of marten I've seen in 27 years of trapping this area. Correspondingly, the small mammal populations,(voles, Keene's Deer mice, shrews) are also the lowest I've seen, and some local researchers, who have been monitoring these small mammal populations, confirmed my observations. They say numbers are the lowest, since the study started, about 15 years ago. Marten populations seem to be about 1/4 of their historical levels, from my personal experience. Marten were introduced to the ABC islands, so maybe the population crash was an overpopulation thing? I'm not sure, but at times in the past, population levels were incredibly dense, compared to other parts of the state in which I've trapped. Anyone in these areas seen an increase this year? Just curious what other guys are seeing.

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#1637813 - 12/06/09 12:30 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: trapped4ever]
piperniner Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1275
Loc: Alaska
T4E - I for one would be interested in your stashed info . Your current info is interesting for sure. Sounds like you have a wealth of experience / knowledge to share.
I guess Kuiu is an indication of what you saying in terms of a downturn.
White seems to be experiencing a similiar situation, so I'm sure he will chime in.
Keep the info coming.

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#1638268 - 12/06/09 09:37 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: piperniner]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14673
Loc: McGrath, AK
I too would be interested in reading anything you can provide. I have seen what I believe to be a similar decline in overall numbers and also what appears to be a decline in young.
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#1638576 - 12/06/09 12:57 PM Re: Marten thread [Re: white17]
alaska viking Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 1828
Loc: juneau, alaska
I sold a few carcasses to the Dept. as well, back in the day. They were buying them here from the mainland for a year or two.
I've read the study, and I believe it is still available on ADFG's web site. That site can be kind of difficult to navigate when looking for scientific studies, but I think you can find it under peer reviewed fur bearer studies. There is also a pretty good one by Steve Peterson relating to his first use of newspaper tubes for marten. He was experimenting with them on what is now, many years later, my main line. To this day I'm still finding old sets of his. The guy was amazing. He's now into his seventies, and heard he traps periodically on the outer coast of Baranof. Must have learned from White17.
_________________________
Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
Carl Sagan.

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#1638649 - 12/06/09 01:36 PM Re: Marten thread [Re: alaska viking]
alaska viking Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/07
Posts: 1828
Loc: juneau, alaska
Go to Alaska dept. of Fish and Game Wildlife Conservation's web site. Under Publications, click on Technical publications. Then click on Wildlife Conservation Research Projects. Then click on Fur bearer. Then on Marten Ecology.
Wala, the marten study.
_________________________
Intellectual capacity is no guarantee against being dead wrong.
Carl Sagan.

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#1638659 - 12/06/09 01:41 PM Re: Marten thread [Re: alaska viking]
white17 Offline

"General (Mr.Sunshine) Washington"

Registered: 03/17/07
Posts: 14673
Loc: McGrath, AK
Thanks !
_________________________
Mean As Nails

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#1640102 - 12/07/09 02:39 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: white17]
trapped4ever Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/17/09
Posts: 31
Loc: alaska
These studies were headed up by Rod Flynn, (F&G Juneau), who is also involved in the Kuiu I. studies. I guess if you all figured out how to get that info, you don't need my copy. Some of this info seems a little off to me. 30 and 49 gram collars? Maybe the collars without the transmitters? or transmitters without collars? I wish I had taken some pictures to show, of the health of these marten. At least 2 of the collared marten I trapped, actually had a ring around the neck, worn thru the skin, with pus all over the abraded area. Maybe to tight of collars? Every marten I trapped, that had a collar, was in poor shape.

Anyways, another study was done that corresponded with this one. This study examined the annual and seasonal diet changes of marten on Chichagof I., using stable isotope analysis. It was headed up by Merav Ben-David of UAF. She repeatedly trapped ,for sampling, 75 marten from Feb. -Dec., 1992-1994. They also purchased 610 carcasses, which she randomly sub-sampled 165 individuals. Each capture, resulted in a drugged immobilization, weight, measurement, a vestigial pre- molar was pulled, 2ml. of blood drawn, and an ear tag, (PIT), or radio collar was attached. They also monitored the abundance of small rodents. Keen's deer mice and long tailed voles, were trapped along 3 permanent transects, Sep.-Oct. 1991-1994.

I don't want to type all of the findings, so I'll try to boil it down. They broke down food sources into 2 groups , terrestrial, and marine. Our marten at times eat a lot of spawned out salmon, shore crabs, urchins, etc. The findings showed, through out the year, diets change drastically, as different food resources come into season. Berries, crab apples, migrating song- birds, salmon, nestling squirrels, etc. They found prey abundance (i.e., year and season) and home range location (near salmon stream, alpine, etc.), are important factors, but some marten seem to show a predatory specialization. In spring winter killed deer composed 26%- 32% of the martens diet. In summer berries made up 13%- 22% of their diet. However, they found that there was no significant body weight or health difference in marten, whether they primarily ate a marine based, or terrestrial based diet. This contradicted their hypothesis, that marten eating a primarily rodent diet, would exhibit better health than those feeding on other foods. Thus, switching to other foods seemed to allow marten to stay healthy, despite a decline in preferred prey numbers. The findings did show a significant weight change in both males and females, thru the year. This may be due to their deficiency in accumulating body fat, which in turn leads to metabolization of muscle, and doesn't necessarily reflect a dietary lack.

After being live- trapped, at least 3 of these marten were harvested 60 miles away. There is a lot of technical data in this report, some stuff I probably can't even decipher. If anyone has a direct question about something I may be able to answer, ask away. Otherwise, maybe some of the computer geniuses on here can access this info somewhere, and fill everyone else in.
Does anyone know, (perhaps the gentleman from Idaho), how accurate the ageing of marten is useing the cementum annuli tooth layers? I've heard it isn't always that accurate in bears, and wondered about marten.

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#1640297 - 12/07/09 08:11 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: trapped4ever]
Gulo Offline
"On The Other Hand"

Registered: 01/03/09
Posts: 116
Loc: Idaho
On the cementum aging of marten, everyone pretty much uses the same lab in Montana (Matson's Lab). Gary does a real fine job, and each tooth that gets sliced also gets a "quality rating" which basically is a rating of how precise the age estimate is (rating from A-C, with "A" being pretty certain, "C" being difficult resulting in poor precision). On teeth I've sent in (usually a canine from harvested animals) about 90% of the teeth are usually "A" rating, and I pretty much believe those ages. When reporting ages, I usually don't use the "B" or "C" rated ages. Gary has told me that a double-rooted molar is best. Obviously, however, a researcher is not going to take a canine or a molar from a live animal, and the tiny premolars probably have fewer "A" teeth, simply because they're so small.

By the way, oldest marten I've ever had was aged at 14.5-year-old male.

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#1640348 - 12/07/09 09:06 AM Re: Marten thread [Re: Gulo]
mtbadger Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 2293
Loc: Montana
By the way, oldest marten I've ever had was aged at 14.5-year-old male.


Wow
_________________________
Ordinary men can do extrodinary things....

Always looking for Bridger #3OS and 1.65OS

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