Just like Dalton McGuinty wanting to keep the
'Lord's Prayer' out of The Ontario Legislature, for the same reasons.
What a gutless wonder he has turned out to be.

This is by a daughter of a murdered couple in TORONTO who
had a Bible and Bookstore on Bloor Street.

When I had to testify at the murder trial of my parents a
week ago, I was asked to raise my right hand.

The bailiff started out, 'Do you swear to tell the
truth, the whole Truth, and nothing but the truth ? I stood there
and waited but she said nothing more.

She said, 'Do you?' I was so stunned I blurted out,
'What happened to 'so help me God?' She came back with 'Do you?'

I replied yes, but I was perplexed. Then the judge said,
'You can say that if you want to.' I stopped, raised my right hand and
finished with 'so help me God!'

I told my son and daughter that when it came time for them
to testify, They should do the same. It's no wonder we have so many
problems in this country.

If I'd had my wits about me, I'd have told them
that taking God out of the courtroom is only going to result in more Criminals and murderers like him being in there.

I don't know what can be done about it, but it's
time we stepped up and did something.

CBC this morning had a poll on this question. They had the
highest number of responses that they have ever had for one of their polls
and the percentage was the same as this: 86% to keep the words; 14% against.

That is a pretty commanding public response. I was asked to Send this on if
I agreed or delete if I didn't. Now it is your turn. It said that
85% of CANADIANS believe in God.

Why do 14% of the population dictate to the rest of us who answer to a higher & greater authority then the Judge get to remove His Righteousness from our courts?



Are you so cynical and hard-hearted that you don't believe God will hear people when they call Gods name?

For me , the courts will never get the respect from me that God would.

I see they also took the "in GOD we trust" off the silver dollar. And people wonder why things are going in the direction they are. Take God out of our plans and he will take us out of his.

The point of the courtroom oath is not to praise God -- any god.

The point is to get the witness to swear to tell the truth -- to swear to or on something he or she BELIEVES in.

Take an atheist, make him swear by God to tell the truth, and it doesn't mean anything to him. He might later say he didn't have to tell the truth because there is no God.

So I think you're missing the point here, Mira. We want witnesses to swear to tell the truth, not to praise God, in the courtroom.

Jim

The way I understand the courtroom oath having the phrase "so help me God" it was not meant to praise God but to remind the person uttering the oath that they have sworn to speak the truth by the One that even if they fool everyone else in the courtroom He will not be fooled.

In a day and time when people want to believe the human mind is the highest form of intelligence governing us and that actions have no consequences beyond this life we cannot expect anyone to have any intrest in being truthful. That kind of thinking finds anything reminding them they might be wrong offensive.

However 86% of the people do believe in a higher authority then a Judge and his minions. I missed nothing in my opinion of the expectations of a God much more Righteous then any Lawyer or Court Judge.

If you are a judge or a lawyer, not having God in the courtroom is good for business. It assures a constant supply of criminals, without which, there would be no need for udges and lawyers.

Yeah, great, lets just skip courtrooms and judges and let Got handle everything directly. That will show them.

Who said anything about skipping court rooms??

Good point.

Mira, you miss the point. Although I DO think God has no business in our earthly courtrooms, that's a different issue.

The point of the oath is for the witness to swear to something he does believe in.

Btw, if God DOES wish to be present in our earthly courtrooms, no judge, lawyer, or other human is stopping him.

Jim

If there is no God why even worry about what we do? What would be the reason not to just live by the rules of the jungle?

Drifter

The point of swearing on a Bible and using the words "So help me God" is recognizing that there is a standard of truth and a Judge (THE JUDGE) who is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart in relation to the ultimate truth...

That's something to ask atheists, Drifter. The courts are concerned with people being serious about the oath.

Witnesses haven't sworn on the Bible here in AK since at least 1981, when I came up here.

Jim

AND THE HITS ON THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN FAITH BASED LAWS CONTINUES TO TAKE THE HITS!

If not for a rule to follow, societies fail to constrict the evil in our society. Such as is our world here in the United States. And it should stay if we wish to continue our sanity in this screwed up world.

My $.02

Mira's main post tells us that 86% of the people polled thought that "so help me God" should be kept.

Let us ponder that fact for a moment. If you are looking for the truth you would want to use every avenue open to you to persuade people to be truthful. Agnostics who wouldn't think twice about lying to men get nervous about lying to a possible God. The oath would remind real believers that truth matters. Real atheists don't believe anything beyond this life matters anyway so nothing you get them to swear by would create the sense of "truth matters here" that you need.

Given that there are more agnostics than true atheists I can understand why people want to keep an oath in our courts that holds them to a higher standard than swearing the oath to just men.

However 86% of law abiding citizens want God to be in the Courts. It is not a case of God wanting to be in our Justice system as much as the general public feeling they want Him there. Those who want God to be a part of the search for truth vastly outnumber the folks who snicker at His name. Those that fear God and respect Him are in the majority as they swear upon the Bible before God. Thus the Bible and God hold more Power over integrity of the Court with more respect then they would for a man wearing a judges robe. Looking at some of the sentencing offered by judges after reading about their own transgressions I would rather God were called upon as a higher authority. Seeing judges caught breaking laws only shows how weak the Judges Robe is in comparison to having God fearing folk swearing to tell the truth before God. Prostitutes Black Books & ranks of known criminals also have judges in their ranks. Also seeing some of the sick rulings which some Judges are making today, makes me wonder if some of them are mentally stable enough or have enough MORAL fiber themselves to be on the bench, let alone ruling on the rights or wrongs of those before them.

For God Fearing folk that wedge is more important then a lie and thus you are correct Sandman. Calling on God does lever truth from people and many respect God more then a judge in a robe who is just as likely to be a sinner as the person he is ruling against. Lots of judges are no better then the former Governor of New York and his rants against prostitution while he was being serviced by prostitutes.

So we shouldn't worry about whether the aetheists and agnostics are taking an oath that means something to them?

What about the Hindus, Buddhists, Shintoists, and a hundred other faiths who don't believe in our one God?

And some Christians themselves believe it's a sin to swear to anything, let alone be presumptious enough to do it to God.

All those folks put together may be a minority here, but we still want to be able to count on them swearing to the truth if they're witnesses.

Here in AK, this is usually the oath administered to witnesses:

"I swear or affirm to tell the truth in these proceedings."

This leaves the witness free to fill in the blank on whatever deity he wishes to swear to. The word "affirm" is for those whose faith or principles preclude them from swearing.

Jim

The way I see it James is the majority of folks are getting fed up with the PC stuff . We have been sitting on the sidelines letting a minority of folks run things because they are more vocal NOT right .

If it was good enough for our forefathers it ought to be good enough for us . After all it was working for a long time until we got career polititions and started letting liberal judges and lawyers split hairs to increase the grey areas .

Drifter

It really is amazing how atheist types who don't believe in God are so indignant against Him and the folks who do believe in God. Why do atheists who know no God get so adamant that folks who do believe in him are denied their willingness to offer God supplication. I played a lot of sports and although I don't believe in carrying lucky coins or having a pre-game routine for good luck I never ever denied my fellow players their routine. It was important to them so that was good enough for me. I never got bent out of shape if a player felt he had to touch each of our sticks in order to enhance his game. Taking God out of my game is a personal affront which the minority Politically correct have FORCED upon a society that favors God in all aspects of North American life. Those same folks who destroyed God feel threatened by Him even though they don't believe in Him. In this case where having people swear on a Bible and giving Credit to God for gaining Truth in Court rooms, I wonder why the folk that don't believe in God, are so disrespectful of the 86% who do want God in the Court Room?

Ships passing in the night. . . .

Jim

In every debate I try to understand what is really true,not what I want to be true. I am more interested in the truth in the matter, not in just winning my argument.

In one of James's earlier posts he mentioned Christians finding oaths of any kind presumptuous. This jogged my memory,so to the Bible I went.

Here are two quotes,the first Jesus himself in Matthew 5, 33-37, New American Standard :

"Again,you have heard that the ancients were told,YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.

"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by Heaven, for it is the throne of God,
or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING."

"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black."

"But let your statement be, Yes, yes, or No, no; anything beyond these is of evil."

Next a quote from the letter of James(not you frostbite!LOL!)chapter 5,verse 12:
"But above all, my brethern, do not swear,either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath; but your yes is to be yes,and your no,no,so that you may not fall under judgment."

I think you and I James do not agree on many things philosophical (I am a "devout" Christian) but on this point I concede to you. Thank you. I will now bow out of this debate and observe others opinions and observations on this topic.

Sandman, all I know is that I've encountered witnesses who 1) claim to be Christian, and 2) refuse to swear any oath. Thanks for the background sources for this belief.

Jim

Some churches believe in saying I affirm instead of I swear to an oath.

Separation of church and state.

Hasn't worked well morally as proven by the chaos of today's society. If God is God & I think He is then I think I will offer Him my Truthful testimony and that is much more likely to fall on Righteous ears then those of Modern Day Judges.

You people are starting to scare me a little and I am not an atheist.

If God is God, He will judge as He wishes, regardless of what oath is taken in our earthly courts.

One more time: the purpose of the courtroom oath is to impress on the witness the importance of telling the truth.

The witness oath was never intended to be an advertisement for religion.

Jim

Historically The Oath was not designed to be of purely secular value James. Indeed it was an advisement to the Judge that a Christian/Jew must face the truth and tell the truth or answer to God for putting forth a lie in His name,under North America's original judicial system. That Oath was a demand upon God Fearing people that they tell the Truth or they would have a lie added to their morality that was weighted by lying in Gods name. Nothing to trifle with if the person with his hand on the Bible was to meet judgment day with that lie in his case load.

Sounds as if an oath to God means a lot to you, Mira. But you mentally pray to God sometimes, don't you? You can add the words "to God" after the word "swear" in your own mind, if that helps.

You have to look at the practicalities. Suppose you have a witness who doesn't believe in the Christian God. You'll concede there are such people, won't you?

You aren't proposing to pass a law requiring them to convert to Christianity, are you?

If you're not proposing such a law, then are you advocating that they take an oath they don't believe in?

The real-life problem in our earthly courts is to craft an oath that impresses on witnesses the importance of truthfulness, and triggers the penalties of perjury if they're untruthful. How would you craft such an oath for multi-cultural, multi-ethnic societies like ours?

Jim

James, were North American courts required to provide a Bible & swear an oath to tell the truth or not? The practicality of that issue is 86% of the population still believes God belongs as a witness to the Truth in North American courts.

Point of courtesy: if you answer my questions first, then I'll be glad to answer yours in turn. :-)

Jim

Reread the thread James. I have expressed my view throughout the thread as to why I feel the need to have God as a Witness to our Court system. I even supplied a factor showing where I don't treat folks who treat Good Luck charms as anything that would cause me consternation when I played sports with such superstitious team mates. I wasn't insulted by their lucky charms so why should the Courts be insulted by having Christians and Jews call upon God for the truth in a court of Law?

Ah, if you're just talking about allowing Christians, Jews, or anyone else to "swear to God," if that works for them, I agree with you.

I was just wondering how we'd deal with the other 14 percent. Btw, I believe you're using out-dated figures on that 86 percent Christian.

According to the surveys conducted by the American Relious Identification surveys, 86 percent was the figure for Americans who identified themselves as Christian in 1990. But their 2009 survey just found that the current figure is 76 percent.

Jim

On this Continent that is the Historical benchmark set up on both sides of the Canadian border. Even the Founding Fathers who leaned towards Atheism recognized that God in the courts would bring about more truthful answers James.




Actually the number is a direct reflection upon a recent CBC poll which established that benchmark and is noted on page one of this thread in the opening remarks James.

I know that you have found that your previous questions of me were answered in this thread James as a point of courtesy. So you should be able to reflect upon my questions of you now.


James, were North American courts required to provide a Bible & swear an oath to tell the truth or not? The practicality of that issue is 86% of the population still believes God belongs as a witness to the Truth in North American courts.

1. Most N. American courts did traditionally use a Bible, yes. I don't know if it was done as a requirement or by custom. The latter, I suspect. And I'm not sure how long that was court custom, but probably longer than America was settled.

2. Sorry, as I said, the figure is 76 percent. But regardless, court procedures are not subject to popular vote or whims.

What would you do if you were the judge, and a witness refused to swear to God?

Jim

Todd, and exactly what did the framers mean by that?

Did they mean that the state had no business telling people what type of Christianty they could follow or better yet had to follow, ie the Church of England?

Did they mean that God must be eliminated from any form of government? And if so then why did they write the laws around the Ten Commandments?

There is believed to be a couple letters written by George Washington that firmly state that the government should be ran under Christian rules and morals

I'll say it again and again, what is so bad at following the life of Jesus? I know its impossible, but it does bring a source of self responsibilty to people.

It is no coincedence that with the removal of corporal punishment and God from our schools that there has been a steady increase of younger crime. NO one has any consiquences anymore.

Take it under consideration James. I am a fair man and if I found that the Hindu was telling the truth he would be given the nod over the Christian that swore an oath that I felt to be contrary to the testimony he was giving. I wouldn't judge the man unfairly if I knew he was Atheist but if he seemed to be a Christian who refused to ask God to be his witness then I would be very watchful of his application of truthful testimony or if a Christian that was lying after swearing the Oath , he would be answering to God through my judgment because I as a JUDGE would be praying for God to give me the proper sentencing against the Christian who had just compounded his sins by lying in the face of God. I would be calling for the same Prayer as Solomon in asking God to give him the wisdom of proper sentencing in all cases despite the fact that the judgment might go against a fellow Christian and favor a man that hates God.



You accused me of missing the point in the start of this thread James. To myself/Christians & Jews we are always aware of God and His position on Righteous behavior. When God is taken into the Court Room by me in that Oath I wouldn't lie supposing the Judge was a Nazi and I was a Jew destined to die if I admitted I loved God more then my life. God will look after me and He will look after those who judge me on Earth.



Where you seem to be missing the point is the importance of God to those who believe in Him. He is our Rock ,our Judge and our Creator. All that I have is His & I have no problem asking Him to witness my sense of truth before a judge who supports me in my values or one dead set against me because TRUTH before God is more important to me. I put great Faith in the view that my truth offered in God's name will make Him activate Truthful response from the entire court, for the jury to recognize. For you as an atheist, I think it is very unjust to expect your testimony to be devalued by an Oath to God or to mickey mouse. As I noted in my point about Lucky Charms,I have no faith in them at all but I do not deny my team mates the joy they get in asking me to touch those charms if they ask me. That analogy is no different to myself or the lucky charm player once the game starts but I feel my Prayers for the Athlete and may the best team win without serious injury to either team, carry more weight.