#678367 - 04/12/08 09:29 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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ChrisM
trapper
Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 44
Loc: South Dakota
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Mark, first thing…. You can throw out all the red herrings you like, but I challenge you to point out a single personal attack in either of my two posts. If on the other hand, you take it personal when someone challenges your statements …. Too bad!!
Cripes! If I didn’t understand and appreciate the value of some research I wouldn’t have volunteered to help with the BMP trap research and the APHIS research on breakaway snares. The context of this discussion was telemetry studies and a supposed difficulty of catching coyotes in their "core" area..
I went and took a quick glance through the research papers I have in my file. They include such topics as food habits, disease studies, vocalization studies, scent marking, lure research, home range, habitat use, dispersal patterns, reproduction, mortality, population dynamics, predatory behavior, fence crossing techniques, coyote’s affect on countless other species, on and on…..
Tell ya what…. You apparently want to discuss the issue of coyote research in general instead of the topic at hand, which was the value of radio telemetry studies on home ranges and "core areas" to fur trappers. So.... to hopefully move the debate along…. (and eventually get to the particular questions which myself and others have raised regarding the theories on that and other issues).... I’ll concede that I should have been more specific to the research being discussed. I should have stated the "vast majority" of research serves no practical purpose to fur trappers.
Bottom line, is that very little of the research listed above has a practical use on a fall trapline for fur. For every study you post that may have value, I can match you with several that don’t. But that would get us nowhere, so I'll simply state that the amount of value each research study has to recreational fur trappers varies, and is certainly subject to debate. For instance, to your point #4 & #7 …….
4. Major Boddicker has written extensively about attractants and visitations to those attractants. I think he referenced 27,000 coyote visits or some such number in a recent American Trapper article. Anyway, he points out that although coyotes step ALL OVER, they step back 9 and offset 3 inches most often to bite, lick, smell an attractant (usually a 4-6 inch object). So you can use this in the field! Depending on how high your backing is, you can tuck your trap close, move it out a bit, OR think about the placement that 27,000 coyotes had as they came in!!! I know where I’m going!
I have read those papers and the findings….I can tell you from personal observations on the trapline that I have never seen where the height of the backing has a bearing on how far back coyotes stand unless the lure that’s being investigated is elevated above the ground on that backing. Coyotes step right up to items and odors of interest at ground level. For instance, if you place a drop of lure on flat ground, coyotes will step up close to that lure odor when identifying (sniffing) it. Slim Pedersen pointed this out to me years ago. Coyotes want to get as close to that lure as they can when sniffing it and in order to do that, they have to step close when it’s on flat ground due to the length of their legs in relation to the position of their nose. An astute observation by Slim, which I have since verified literally thousands of times. . In contrast, if that lure is 12" above the ground, their feet will be back further.
7. Research from Dr. Michael Jaeger, Dale McCullough, Bekoff and many others IS the reason mass poisons ARE NOT used anymore. That’s applies to those who trap WHERE they used to kill them with poison baits. Jaeger’s research and meta-analysis of the data portrays where you have to kill 70% of coyotes for five consecutive years to significantly impact populations and if you miss a year they return to what he terms, "pre-treatment levels". His research is also available online and here’s a quote that’s relevant;
"They found that, contrary to general belief, almost all predation on lambs was done by the dominant territorial coyote pair. This explained why broadcast poisoning, trapping and shooting of coyote populations were having little effect on reducing the loss of lambs. This discovery enabled managers to focus on the selective removal of only the territorial coyote pair and resulted in Dale and Mike receiving the prestigious Berryman Institute Prize in 2000."
Mark, seriously, you need to study up on Executive Order 11643 . President Nixon’s 1972 ban on toxicants had absolutely nothing to do with science or anyone’s research of predation on sheep!
"General belief" ?? Are you serious? Any ADC coyote trapper with more than one summers experience can tell you that. Is this what you view as cutting edge research? LOL The Berryman Institute gave them an award for this? Man, must have been a slow year for research!
Beyond those points, there’s no sense in splitting hairs on the other studies, when we may agree on many points, lets go back to our points of disagreement. On the subject of population dynamics, a previous statement you made caught my attention….
"50/50 male to female is what you want year to year and I agree with you that the weighing of critters throws trappers for a loop. A 40 lb coyote is a big animal no doubt. Next year keep a close eye on that gender ratio as ma nature knows what's blowing through a population before we do and I use one year's population dynamics to set up the next year's plan."
I’d be very interested in your explanation of that statement.
I noticed you complimented K9 on his questions and posting style, but completely avoided answering his questions.
I believe K9’s questions were along the lines of what sets and/or lures are age and gender specific, so that he can target the alpha males, and how does he know when he catches one? Care to comment on that?
Now to finally get back to the original topic. Like K-9’s questions, my questions still stand as well….. How can a trapper in November, looking at sign on a location, determine if he is in the "core" area? Why should he care? Should he pass up this location because he read some study saying the coyotes might be easier to catch elsewhere?
On my control line….. Exactly how far do I need to stay back from this dreaded "core area" and make the adults easier to catch? Why would I only want to make sets on the perimeter of their territory? My job is to stop the killing as soon as possible, so why would I want to sift through the coyotes from adjoining areas that will be caught on that perimeter? What if the sheep are well within the boundaries of the home range? Should I just accept a theory that coyotes are harder to catch in their familiar territory because some grad-student trapper 30 years ago lacked the knowledge and experience to catch them there?
Oh, and yes, I have trapped east of the Missouri river. Never east of the Mississippi though.. And certainly never in the high population areas of the east. But that is just one more diversion tactic on your part. . It has nothing to do with a fur trappers ability to determine home ranges absent telemetry collars.
Still waiting for the rational for the placenta smeared decoy.
_________________________
Seger's music speaks to a person's heart and soul like few others can.
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#678421 - 04/12/08 09:56 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Coydog]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Chris, we will agree to disagree, but I actually do agree with you that MOST research does not have a bearing on what fur trappers do in the field each fall. I was pointing out research I find helpful, if you don't find it helpful, that's fine.
You're hung around that core area discussion and there's no need to banter it further. I use my knowledge of home range characteristics to help me in the field and have for 30 years now so I know it works. If you have another way, and there are different methods, share them for others as I do. I'll be a bit different though in that I won't run your methods down and it won't "bother" me that you explain them to others. In fact, many times as I do demos at the NTA or FTA or a state, there's a trapper before me with his methods and I catch some of it. I give my methods and usually right after or shortly thereafter there's someone else giving a different slant on things. This is how the real world works and NONE of us get "bothered" when the other is giving his/her methods.
Hey how'd you do east of the Missouri river by the way? Did you find it much different than where you're at? And what DID YOU DO when coyotes didn't come into your sets there? As a matter of inquiry, I thought you'd trapped in Michigan at one time??
As far as the placenta set and another set with coyote chyme, I'm gonna keep a bit shush on those 
Mark
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#678759 - 04/13/08 08:18 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Mark June]
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Scott Huber
trapper
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: South Dakota
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Thank you for your lengthy previous response Mark. Nice to know that "length of post" will no longer be a diversionary topic of discussion. Haha!
To your questions:
1. Did I take Tom Miranda's slot in SD working for the state?
No! I started for the state in 1986 and took Joe Grimson's place. Joe now works for WS in ND. Joe was/is a darn good coyote man that taught me a lot about good locations in this area. Joe was one of many good teachers I was priveleged to spend time with.
2. Have I trapped coyotes East of the Missouri River?
Yes! I grew up East of the Missouri River and also trapped coyotes near Watertown, SD while attending voctional school there.
3. Who appointed ANYONE, namely you sire, as the keeper of the truth grail?
Nobody needs to appoint anyone to challenge what they believe is misleading information. I take it upon myself to correct information that I believe is misleading and search for the facts of an issue any chance I get. I welcome the same in return. Constructive debate sorts fact from fiction. This is old hat for me so don't feel special from that standpoint.
A much better question would be why do you believe anything you write is above reproach?
I thought you said you were a “sponge” for information and loved to learn? Well, if you’d set your pride aside there would be plenty here for you to learn. No man knows it all. Isn’t that why you asked your initial question on how to avoid set refusals and sets going dead? Ideas for an upcoming article? If not, why did you ask?
Since I answered your questions, in fairness, shouldn’t you also answer my bolded questions or will you continue to divert?
On the value of research but not to belabor the point .......
You said, "...he (Boddicker) points out that although coyotes step ALL OVER, they step back 9 and offset 3 inches the most often to bite, lick, smell an attractant (usually a 4-6 inch object). so you can use this in the field!.
Where a coyote places it's foot at a trap set depends on the angle of the terrain, the placement of the lure, the guiding, and the wind direction or combination of those and other factors. Coyotes generally approach a set where they first smell and/or see it. Track any set of coyote tracks in the snow and they are virtually in a straight line, not staggered 3" off to one side. If you care to refute that, I welcome your views to the contrary. As I said, I’m always willing to learn.
At a dirthole set, I set my trap straight downwind if possible as close to the hole as I can get and still leave a lip between the hole or the lure and/or attractor so the dirt isn't sliding off the trap. I guide the body to one side and the feet to the other. I’ve killed literally thousands of coyotes on M-44s over the years and I know exactly where they place their feet when they are pulling the units because it’s usually the last steps they ever make aside from stumbling off 35 yards and tipping over like a drunk. Guiding trumps trap placement.
Your next claim...
7. Research from Dr. Michael Jaeger, Dale McCullough, Bekoff and many others IS the reason mass poisonings ARE NOT used anymore. That's applies to those who trap WHERE they used to kill them with poison baits."
Bekoff's research was conducted in the mid 70's through the early 80's. I just checked. Could not find McCullough sited in Wild Furbearer Management and Conservation in North America so I'm assuming his research was in recent years. If I’m wrong in my assumption on McCullough, I’ll welcome being corrected. I know Jaeger's research is in recent years.
Toxicants were banned in 1972 so why would anyone’s research conducted after that time have anything to do with the banning of toxicants????
The reason toxicants were banned had nothing to do with anyone's research. Yet another false statement Mark. Toxicants were banned because of bleeding heart liberals who felt they had to save the livestock industry from itself and due to the secondary poisoning of "SOME" toxicants such as strychnine. Other toxicants, such as compound 1080, did not have the same secondary poisoning affects but were lumped into the same category by the “I care more than you” crowd. Compound 1080 was extremely effective in reducing coyote populations to well below 70% of normal and keeping it there.
For the record, when compound 1080 was at it's peak use in SD, there wasn't hardly any coyotes. LESS TOTAL COYOTES = LESS DOMINANT TERRITORIAL COYOTE PAIRS TO KILL LIVESTOCK. Pretty basic. Livestock losses to coyote predation were at an all time low during that time. Another theory shot down in flames by fact and observation (indiscriminate coyote killing enhancing coyote populations). The few “non carrion” eating coyotes that remained were quickly removed when they were discovered due to the fact that they usually only ate what they killed.
Thank you Mark for making my point on the limited value of CERTAIN RESEARCH. I couldn't have done a better job myself.
You should have stuck to your own advise again….
Mark June: "it serves no purpose as far as I can see (yes that's my opinion, good or bad) to continue to site studies to "prove" what is being discussed."
I find that statement rather ironic considering your most recent post which sited numerous studies.
Mark June: "....we now have to incorporate east and west on ALL coyote talking points."
Mark June: "MUCH of what's discussed is hard to implement when there's that many people stuffed into that kind of real estate."
Understood Mark!
Differences between areas such as human population is precisely why you can't take the results of a radio telemetry study and “core areas” from one area and apply them to another. Thank you again for making my point.
Mark June: “If you go back and READ my comments or when you read/watch one of my projects, it’s NOT me who says this and that are absolutely set in stone!”
Interesting! Now let's review some of your previous comments within this thread and let the readers decide for themselves whether your comments were carved in stone or carved in soap shall we?
Readers, observe .....
Mark June: "...yotes are harder to catch in their core home ranges."
Pretty cut and dried. Implies all coyotes, regardless of age, in all areas and that statement is not even true for adult coyotes that are territorial in the winter time. You can snare any territorial adult coyote in the middle of his territory if you have the right spot and you can trap them with blind sets and/or use natural flat sets and mop them up once your scent dissipates or before depending on the area. If you disagree, let’s see what you have to offer to support that statement.
Mark June: "It's well documented that coyotes are neophobic or fearful of new things ESPECIALLY in familiar range, meaning core home territory."
Mark June: "Coyotes are not easily attracted in core home range due to several factors that relate to their neophobic or fearful nature overcoming curiosity short term. Now they will investigate after some days but when you get a large population, you won't routinely catch Alpha pairs in their core range as easily as you'll catch them on the parimeter or unfamiliar range."
Not once in those statements did you account for any difference between east and west as you now say is important. Not once did you say “MOST” coyotes or “SOME” coyotes, you imply all coyotes. Implying that all coyotes are harder to catch in their “core areas” does not account for the fact that 60% - 70% of most healthy coyote populations are young of the year coyotes which elicit no territorial behavior. Those coyotes are looking for a territory, not defending one. Sorry, but that statement, as written is false.
It’s well documented that territorial adult coyotes are very attracted to unfamiliar coyote odors anywhere within their territory. If you disagree, let’s see what you have to defend your views to the contrary. Once again, I’m willing to learn.
I suppose this is where you accuse me of misquoting you again, huh?
Mark June: “You know my thoughts ARE false…”
That is not what I said. Every time I pointed out a statement you made that I believed was false, I was specific to that statement and quoted you for that reason. Copy/paste has value in stopping illusions. This is a “no spin” zone Mark. Don’t take my statements out of context.
Mark June: “I was thinking, why would any of this [presenting false statements] bother you?”
Mark June: “My theory is this….this all bother you cause it makes sense to many (that’s why their heads are bobbin at these demos cause they agree with things I outline and that what they see when they go trapping in their areas) and you get a little ….green with…..”
I already told you why false statements bother me. Statements like “yotes are harder to catch in their core areas” are misleading when anyone that knows anything about coyotes knows that 60% - 70% of most healthy coyote populations are young coyotes which do not elicit territorial behavior. That’s what bothers me but I don’t get so sick over it to the point that I turn green with a gut ache. LOL! I said it bothers me and it does. Not your problem I know. I happen to believe beginning coyote trappers deserve better information than that. If that bothers you, oh well! As I said all along, I place a higher value on accurate information than worrying about stepping on someone’s toes by challenging inaccurate statements and I’ll take the heat for it from those being challenged and/or their cheerleaders. I have nothing to sell.
Don't worry about me "thinking I know it all", any coyote trapper worth his salt realizes that the more he learns, the more he has to learn. The untapped arena of coyote knowledge is how coyote behavior changes from coyote to coyote, from place to place, and from time to time.
Here’s the other questions you still haven’t answered regarding your “core area” theories:
How does a fur trapper identify a "core area" of a coyote without telemetry collars?
Do you think 6 - 8 month old coyotes have territories?
At what age do coyotes become territorial?
Do you think the results of a radio telemetry study from a particular place at a particular time is representative of a different place at a different time with changing food bases, more human disturbance, more human caused coyote mortality, changes in habitat, and other behavior altering factors?
You didn’t bring anything to support this statement either….
Mark June (FT Vol 43 - No.7 - July 2007): "Research has repeatedly shown that coyotes are density specific breeders, meaning that the lower the coyote population, the larger the litters produced, and the lower the overall mortality is for those little pups. Higher populations result in smaller litters and higher pup mortality”
You didn’t explain how to make sex specific sets to target Alpha Males. Assuming it can even be done, I’d like to know why anyone would target one sex of coyote over the other unless they were doing ADC work. When calling, we usually try to shoot the female first since she runs the show, not the male as you have suggested. Every ADC man I know would rather get the female because she is usually tougher to come up with. Another place we disagree.
You know Mark, the more I think about it, the 5 gallon bucket of coyote turds you picked up from your coyote trapline in April after you were done trapping is a very interesting statement considering you admitted to having a lot of mange in that area as well.
Have a nice day! Hope I'm not talking to myself again.
~SH~
Edited by Scott Huber (04/13/08 02:45 PM)
Edit Reason: typos, bolding, & further explanation
_________________________
Understanding how coyote behavior changes from one area to the next is where the rubber meets the road
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#678771 - 04/13/08 08:31 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Scott Huber]
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RdFx
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1053
Loc: Wisconsin
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As always interesting.
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#678811 - 04/13/08 09:06 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: RdFx]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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Great info guys.
Chris M in your absence there has been a story going around that you took an out of state trapping trip to the Michigan UP and was unable to catch coyotes. I just thought I'd put that out there as you might not even know about that story, and Mark is asking you about it.
Mark I am open minded to new ideas, but I have seen all the gimmicks come and go just like I am sure you have. I shake my head when I see "trappers" buying sheeps wool or coyote doo, but you can sell just about anything to trappers it seems.
Not asking you to give away your book, but it seems using a coyote decoy at a set is really going to a lot of extreme just to catch a coyote. I understand that this is probably just something you have done on a limited basis, I just fail to see how it would be worth my time to haul such a thing to the set area and smear it with placenta. Let me qualify things by telling you I have never tried it, and probably won't.
Is this something you just tired? or something you do on a regular basis?
I will not ask you how, if that is some closely gaurded secret. But I will ask you why?
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk 
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#678823 - 04/13/08 09:21 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: k9.]
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ChrisM
trapper
Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 44
Loc: South Dakota
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LOL, Why would anyone go to MI. to trap coyotes?
To be clear... No. I have never trapped in MI. Only been there one time... that was the NTA convention in Gaylord.
I did grow up in SE Nebraska though and spent several years trapping the sandhills, back when coyotes were high!
_________________________
Seger's music speaks to a person's heart and soul like few others can.
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#678829 - 04/13/08 09:31 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: k9.]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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"Hey how'd you do east of the Missouri river by the way? Did you find it much different than where you're at? And what DID YOU DO when coyotes didn't come into your sets there? As a matter of inquiry, I thought you'd trapped in Michigan at one time??"
Also Mark, back to east/vs west in an earlier post I directed a question to you and John Graham, and anyone else who has your experience of eastern and western trapping. John answered it and you did not. I completely understand how you couldmiss some questions in this mass of good information on this thread.
My question was, given your experience both east and west that you now have, if you were going to take a trapping trip to the east for a few weeks, would your mindset, strategy, or equipment be any different? In other words, while you are loading up and preparing for your trip, would you be thinking that you have to come at those coyotes differently because they are more "wary" than those in the west? Or would you just do things the same as you always do, withthe obvious exception that the terrain and ground moisture conditions will be different?
The common theme has always been that western coyotes are thicker in numbers, and that they are easier to catch because of the competition among coyotes for food.
I disagree if you have not figured that out, and tend to think that a coyote is a product of his own environment but still has the same instincts as his bretheren in Anywhere USA.
So when we look at a western coyote, in many areas with good den men, many litters and adults have been already dead on the ground before June, opening up food sources that would have been depleted and agressively guarded by the denning pair. Imagine how a good denner in a county changes up the "norm" or even the "core" territories of coyotes in a given area just by removing a den.
Of course there will be a constant influx of new coyotes to fill that void, if it has good food sources for the times of year.
I think of wilderness coyotes to the east, and compare thier early fall experiences to those here in Iowa. A pup coyote here in Sept has lived in a world filled with standing corn and beans, cover everywhere and food too. Life must be good for those coyotes.
Then the machinery hits the fields, big noisy combines pushing those coyotes from field to field and removing all that cover within a few weeks. So those coyotes get pushed into the CRP and places where the machinery does not go. I have talked with farmers who have watched five and six coyotes run out of endrows when they are harvesting.
Right during or after that, here every feild gets walked several times per day by large groups of pheasant hunters. Most coyotes get dusted with bird shot and have thier first real negative experience with man. I have seen coyotes get jumped by hunters and dusted with bird shot, watched them run over a hill right into another group of hunters and get dusted again.
OUr trapping season opens after a solid week of pheasant hunting like I just described.
So imagine what kind of coyote I am dealing with on opening day. His whole safe world, within about a month period of time has been opened up and become complete heck for the coyote, and his paranoia level must be very high.
Compare that, or a western coyote effected by ADC, to coyotes in the east who experience no real ADC effort. Some coyotes in ag areas may experience some that an Iowa coyote does, but wilderness coyotes do not.
My question to Mark has kind of evolved into a coyote rambling, I welcome comments from all.
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#678830 - 04/13/08 09:32 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: ChrisM]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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LOL, Why would anyone go to MI. to trap coyotes?
To be clear... No. I have never trapped in MI. Only been there one time... that was the NTA convention in Gaylord.
I did grow up in SE Nebraska though and spent several years trapping the sandhills, back when coyotes were high!
Well then someone owes you an apology I am guessing, cause that "trip" you took and your "failure" has been brought up on here.
I'll leave that between you and them.
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#678833 - 04/13/08 09:33 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: ChrisM]
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Scott Huber
trapper
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: South Dakota
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When coyotes were high? What were they high on? Did they start chewing on Maui Wowy plants? Cool!
I have this image of a coyote sitting in the trap with a lazy grin on it's face staring at my bag of chips. LOL!
Sorry, lost my head again.
~SH~
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Understanding how coyote behavior changes from one area to the next is where the rubber meets the road
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#678838 - 04/13/08 09:38 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Scott Huber]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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Trippy!!
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#678841 - 04/13/08 09:42 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: k9.]
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ChrisM
trapper
Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 44
Loc: South Dakota
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Yes, K9. That quote makes sense now. Also the previous one where Scott and I were asked if we've ever trapped east of the Missouri river. I took it as simple curiosity at the time.
Sounds like some desperation going on via pm's, but nobody had the brass to just ask.... straight up!
Edited by ChrisM (04/13/08 11:02 AM)
_________________________
Seger's music speaks to a person's heart and soul like few others can.
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#678851 - 04/13/08 09:48 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: ChrisM]
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John Graham
trapper
Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 329
Loc: Jordan, Montana
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I haven't heard that rumor before Chris. It would be fun though (road trapping through timber) up there. But, looked to me theres way more road traffic and people buying up little tracts of private land and places springing up everywhere. Cell phones and four wheelers have changed alot of the two track road trapping in a lot of places. Just so you, know, I'm confident you could catch coyotes in the U.P.
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#678882 - 04/13/08 10:22 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: John Graham]
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ChrisM
trapper
Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 44
Loc: South Dakota
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I would hope so John... If not I'd give you a call and beg for advice! lol
_________________________
Seger's music speaks to a person's heart and soul like few others can.
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#678968 - 04/13/08 11:37 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: ChrisM]
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Scott Huber
trapper
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: South Dakota
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K-9: "Chris M in your absence there has been a story going around that you took an out of state trapping trip to the Michigan UP and was unable to catch coyotes. I just thought I'd put that out there as you might not even know about that story, and Mark is asking you about it."
Mark June (previous in this thread): "In MI, I really paid little attention to human odor...I got the sets in and fine. I moved to NE and I saw that the remote regions of our state did in fact have coyotes that circled my set much more on the initial night of trap setting than I ever had with the eastern MI coyotes. In fact my personal opening days catches in MI were always 6-9 but in NE, no way. I catch way more here but my sets have to age a day or two before they bang them routinely."
Mark June (previous in this thead): "I don't catch as many first night yotes here in NE as I did in Michigan, even though there are MANY more here as the population goes [insert - coyotes, not people]. In fact, I moved to NE for a reason and that's that several regions of our state are the highest densities in the nation (well they're down now due to darn mange!) and I attribute less 1st night catches to human odor since my methods didn't change. I see "many" visits to within a couple feet here in NE first night but the action really starts to roll consistantly after that."
I see the same thing here so agree with Mark's OBSERVATIONS on human scent disipation.
So much for the difficulty of catching MI coyotes.
NEXT! (diversion)
~SH~
Edited by Scott Huber (04/13/08 02:31 PM)
Edit Reason: bolding and explanatory reasons
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Understanding how coyote behavior changes from one area to the next is where the rubber meets the road
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#679184 - 04/13/08 02:53 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Scott Huber]
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bogio
trapper
Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 11
Loc: iowa
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Fantastic thread! I have a question for Scott pertaining to the use of carcasses. You said that you could place carcasses at a dump site in an unnatural manner,causing them to seek a higher stall out point to view this,thus providing an oppurtunity to trap them. What did you mean by an unnatural manner? Could this then apply to the placing of carcasses at trap locations whereby instead of bringing the coyote into the vicinity the trapper actually gave them cause to avoid the immediate area? This could explain the poor results many experience with the use of carcasses?
I too was perplexed by the idea of the full body decoy set from the first moment it appeared here. I have never heard of this before. Please elaborate.
Brian
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#679247 - 04/13/08 03:39 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: bogio]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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Im not Scott but will throw my 2 cents worth in. I never set at the carcass location. I want my set downwind of the carcass if trapping. If snaring I want the carcass in a thick spot and snare the trails coming in.
Some years placing big baits has served me well, other years it was not worth it. That is related to weather I am sure.
However even if they are not in a feeding mindset, I think all the things about a big bait or carcass, the smells and sounds, would still cause a stalling out and investigation even if from afar.
To presume that investigation would take place from a travelway on the downwind side, or a high point that allows a good visual of the bait is probably a pretty good presumption.
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#679400 - 04/13/08 05:23 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: k9.]
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bogio
trapper
Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 11
Loc: iowa
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k9,thanks for the input.I agree with and practice as you stated.I was wondering what Scott meant when he said to place a carcass in an "unnatural manner" at a dump site where carcasses would be thrown in in a more or less haphazard fashion. Then could the same type of presentation actually be detrimental and cause avoidance when applied in the field.
Brian
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#679625 - 04/13/08 07:17 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: bogio]
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Scott Huber
trapper
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: South Dakota
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Bogio,
Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. Let's say you throw a complete deer carcass in a brush patch. In many places AROUND HERE it will take coyotes about 3 days to feed on it.
In contrast, if you take a rib cage from a dressed deer with no hide, coyotes may never feed on it because it appears unnatural.
If you have sets at a dump site and coyotes are used to feeding in that dump site, they may be so used to feeding there that they will run by your sets and head right in to feed.
Now if you placed a carcass in that dump in an unnatural position or threw a skinned rib cage in there, it's going to look out of place enough that they might pace back and forth and work your sets.
I agree with K-9 in that it's best to trap or snare off a ways to keep trapped coyotes from spooking any skittish adults in the area but sometimes, due to vegetation, you have no choice but to set close to the dump.
Keep in mind that pits are not all the same size. Sometimes the ridge or rim above a pit is quite a distance from the carcasses.
~SH~
_________________________
Understanding how coyote behavior changes from one area to the next is where the rubber meets the road
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#679628 - 04/13/08 07:20 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Scott Huber]
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Scott Huber
trapper
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: South Dakota
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I need to also point out that many states have laws regarding how close you can set to the carcass. In SD it's 30 feet.
~SH~
_________________________
Understanding how coyote behavior changes from one area to the next is where the rubber meets the road
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#679672 - 04/13/08 07:42 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Scott Huber]
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bogio
trapper
Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 11
Loc: iowa
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Thank you Scott. It then goes to an unnatural appearance as opposed to how it is actually placed or presented. This goes along with the thinking that most avoidance problems are caused by unnatural appearances. Cylindrical holes, finely sifted patterns, hard lines, and other details that appear man made and out of place. This is on coyotes that are refusing to work sets, not those that not interested for whatever other reason.
I have a friend who calls quite abit with fairly good success. He has been trying to incorporate a full body mount decoy into his routine as seen on some videos. To date his success with this after 2 years trying is the big zippo. I contribute this to the unnatural appearance of that unmoving decoy. Natural appearance seems to be of supreme importance when dealing with these creatures. Perhaps the body mount decoy set is catching it's animal at a stall out spot 100 yards distant as it stops to contemplate the unmoving coyote who smells to be mired in afterbirth?
Brian
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#679908 - 04/13/08 09:29 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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bogio
trapper
Registered: 12/01/07
Posts: 11
Loc: iowa
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griffondog,agreed on the dinner bell theory. Things are probably tolerated at different levels in different areas. This supports the position about studies being a mirror of that particular time and place.
My dog agrees with yours. I think some have found dogs to be of little use on their line but that has not been the case for me. He shows me the interest points that only his nose and perspective understand. He goes in on all catches with no apparent effect to the remakes even though after interaction with the catch he posts and dumps without fail outside the circle.
Brian
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#679911 - 04/13/08 09:30 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Paul,
You're observations are right on track. Asa's world in the upper penisula and some portions of the upper lower are quite different with regard to how you set for coyotes. The upper is primarily brush country and you hit them on 2-tracks and where ever you can access best while the southern lower is smaller ag areas (10-160 acres) with plenty of people.
Griffondog, I found that the two weeks after deer gun season when those 100,000's of deer were killed and gutted REALLY slowed th coyote catch.. HUGE fall off and then magically they turn on again as the piles are cleaned up ( I guess) or the 100,000's of hunters retreat from the woods and they once again fall into their natural patterns.
k9- The main difference between east and west you asked about is really related to dealing with MORE people and trying to get to all your sets as quickly as you can. This really puts the rush on the deal PLUS in all sectors of MI you had numerous non-target catches and that's WHY I stuck with non-tainted meats as baits. You load up on Powder RIver and other very good baits in the areas I trapped and you better get ready to say howdy to 6-8 grinner and skunks per day outta 80-90 traps out. I can also run WAY MORE traps in NE (125-140) per day if I want to (but I usually run 100) and in the eastern zones with rain/freeze and thaw I used waxed dirt to keep out 80 GOOD sets. The farmerd fields are a mess frequently so good working sets doesn't mean you can access them easily.
I loved the sandier country of northern MI for that reason, water would perk and you could keep more sets in the ground.
I also "blend" duff and such over the sets more in the east vs. the west cause I don't have to as much in the west.
BUT the main ingredient doesn't change wherever you go... HARD WORK.
Mark
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#679917 - 04/13/08 09:33 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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Paul Mark was talking UP earlier in the thread, first or second page.
I know this runs contrary to your experience there. It has been interesting to me to talk with Asa, John G, Mark J, Griffon, and a couple others who have trapped full time in that area, as opposed to just a temporary trip out there. My point being, they have experienced variables and conditions year after year that a guy cannot experience trapping there for a little while.
I compare thier experiences and draw my own conclusions, and will admit to you that I was surprised at the beginning of this thread when Mark J posted that the MI coyotes cam easy the first night, and the NEB ones came hard. I even thought he accidentally meant Minnesota.
But it is what it is.
So Paul, are those MI coyotes harder to trap than the ones in say...Broadus Montana? You haven't posted that picture in a long time. I get a good laugh when I see it.
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2008 One coon One skunk
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#679922 - 04/13/08 09:37 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: k9.]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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We posted at the same time Mark. I am envious of Asa's drag country out there and think that aspect of it would be fun.
You east VS west assessment is about what I thought it would be.
I thought the UP was a possum free zone Seemed like someone commented on that once. It is good that they too can experience the wiley possum.
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2008 One coon One skunk
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#679936 - 04/13/08 09:42 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: k9.]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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k9 - To the original question I posted I often use more creative sets and fart around with new ideas here in west NE when coyotes are not coming to traditional set ups, i.e. the goofy decoy and placenta smeared on it. I've only tried that maybe 10 times and rarely catch anything on it. I sometimes use it to see how it works when I've got a coyote that's trickier than most, but it's not nearly as reliable as other means, THAT'S FOR SURE. But, hey play and learn?!?!? The chess game of catching "some" coyotes sometimes calls for CREATIVITY.
I couldn't use something like that in the heavily populated eastern region as #1. My decoy would be stolen or have holes shot in it #2. Coyotes are rarely livestock killers #3. Half the folks in the nearby houses would call the humane society cause there's been a doggie standing still out in the neighbor's farm field since yesterday morning, we think he's not feeling good and someone should come and rescue him quick.
Mark
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#679949 - 04/13/08 09:50 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Mark June]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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I have staked dead lambs in a standing position before near/along travelways and caught coyotes in the trails. Blind set with dropping in the sheep trail, theory being coyote paces back and forth looking at the dead lamb. Probably in reality would have caught the coyotes anyway without the lamb, only the coyote knows for sure.
I have also just staked down the carcass laying there and done the same, making sure the travelway was on the downwind side of the lamb which was staked about 20 feet away.
While on the subject of lambs, I have not trapped a sheep killer in quite a while, no need to around here.
However, I have always wondered. The coyote always goes for the fat around the intestines and liver area. So how many people use that as a lure base? Also is there any bait value to the stomach contents or intestine contents of a nursing lamb?
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2008 One coon One skunk
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#679962 - 04/13/08 09:54 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: k9.]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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k9 - Most commercial lures and baits use ingredients that we can get in pretty good amounts and I'm not so sure you could do that with adipose (Fat). I suppose you could bargain with a local butchery but I don't have experience with those OR the stomach contents you mentioned from a nursing lamb. Creative though, I'll give you that kudu.
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#679999 - 04/13/08 10:08 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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k9, check with Asa first though cause he keeps ALL the UP coyotes penned up and only lets out a few on special occasions.
That's WHY they're so hard to catch, when I was there he didn't let ANY loose 
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#680035 - 04/13/08 10:30 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Mark June]
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Scott Huber
trapper
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: South Dakota
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PD: "Do you know if that was in the Lower Penninsula or the Upper Penninsula? Since you're not from that area, I doubt you know there is a vast difference in the two areas. They are different worlds."
No I don't. Are you suggesting that they are more difficult to catch in one area of MI than the other? More importantly, why would that be?
Eastern SD and Western SD are night and day difference as well. Same methods work in each place.
What's your point?
~SH~
_________________________
Understanding how coyote behavior changes from one area to the next is where the rubber meets the road
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#680043 - 04/13/08 10:40 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Scott Huber]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Scott, When I asked about "if" you had trapped east of the Missouri River, I was just wondering if you've ever had the opportunity to see for yourself what differences may or may not exist. Watertown, SD is in fact east of the Missouri as it makes its western jog, but you are really just north of the main river system itself. I was picturing something a bit further east than your home state.
Maybe I should have asked about east of the Mississippi to give a better visual of what I meant. The coyote world coast to coast is not the same as we have out here in the prairie states according to countless trappers I talk to in the >12 conventions I do each year. I rely on the guys and gals to fill me in on trapping in AL or GA or NY, etc, as I've never been there to trap and it's always neat to hear the trapping tales and strategies from these areas.
Mark
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#680214 - 04/14/08 07:24 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Paul,
I have no direct evidence on the upper and lower portions of MI, but always related it to the human factor. There's far fewer people in the UP unless it's during 2 weeks of gun deer season and there's MILLIONS in the lower people.
I have never trapped in either of the dakotas and even though the terrains are vastly different from the plains to the badlands in them, there are only 1.5 Million folks in BOTH of those big geographical sized states (SD and ND)... and the uniqueness and beauty IMO of both states is the vast area void of many people. My experience, like yours, is that in areas where coyotes co-exist with LARGE numbers of people, ex: Lower portion of MI, trappers need to make adjustments. I've seen and trapped in both trapping scenarios as I outlined in an earlier post and the coyotes respond differently to human scent, also my anecdotal findings.
Mark
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#680221 - 04/14/08 07:42 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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K9. - "So Paul, are those MI coyotes harder to trap than the ones in say...Broadus Montana? You haven't posted that picture in a long time. I get a good laugh when I see it."
I have no idea. Dad trapped those coyotes back in 1976 before Mr. O'Gorman arrived there. I believe that pic is in the Gallery here in Tman.
If a dumb old beaver trapper like me can catch those elusive coyotes of the UP of Mi, I say anyone can catch em - lol. Why don't ya go up and give em a try?
Laughing is easy... doing is tougher
Paul! Are you offering me an all expenses paid trip to the UP to test Dobbins products for you?!? I ACCEPT!!!! I cannot thank you enough
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#680269 - 04/14/08 08:22 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Paul Dobbins]
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Scott Huber
trapper
Registered: 04/06/08
Posts: 24
Loc: South Dakota
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Mark,
Ahem, your questions are still on the table......
1. Why do you believe anything you write is above reproach?
2. How does a fur trapper identify a "core area" of a coyote without telemetry collars?
3. Do you think 6 - 8 month old coyotes have territories?
4. At what age do coyotes become territorial?
5. Do you think the results of a radio telemetry study from a particular place at a particular time is representative of a different place at a different time with changing food bases, more human disturbance, more human caused coyote mortality, changes in habitat, and other behavior altering factors?
This thread was supposedly about set refusals and now you yourself are r | | | | |
