#676869 - 04/11/08 07:50 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Mark June]
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Jtrapper
trapper
Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 7372
Loc: Alabama (Bama for short) 108 y...
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You pull a stunt like that again Mark and im calling you on the phone and have you READ all of that out to me, my eye's are fogged over now, lol.
_________________________
 I ALMOST survived SmackDown Tupelo '08!
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#676871 - 04/11/08 07:52 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Jtrapper]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Breath into the paperbag J... deep breaths.
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#676891 - 04/11/08 08:00 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Mark June]
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Jtrapper
trapper
Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 7372
Loc: Alabama (Bama for short) 108 y...
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Smells like cheap wine in there!
_________________________
I ALMOST survived SmackDown Tupelo '08!
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#676897 - 04/11/08 08:05 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Mark June]
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BuzzBoss
trapper
Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 16
Loc: California
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I don't know you at all, Mark. By reputation, never heard of you, either? And, I have nothing against you, but I do see that you are attempting to butter up a few members, maybe for support, I don't know? Personally, I wouldn't care if there was a hundred against my opinion, I would not twist any arms for testimonials. And I'm not accusing you of that. I'm just saying I have an opinion and I could care less who agrees with it, but I sometimes have a uncontrollable urge to share my opinion with anyone that wants to listen.
Actually, the reason I am responding is because of the "research" question. It so happens that the one study area I was refering to, (earlier) in Idaho is run by Dr. Michael Jaeger, whom you quote, and I assume you support his conclusions? I have read his stuff myself and I have to wonder how he can believe any of his data is valid when he is impacting and tracking and helicopter netting his alpha animals. From a friend that spent some time with the gentleman, and who I believe, it seems more like his study coyotes are heading for a nervous breakdown. Some of the things he sees and documents run so contrary to normal coyote behavior, it is almost laughable. Okay, so it's also true, but what value is it to a trapper or as I am, (to be clear), I'm just a contest hunter? My point is, when you interact with the control study animals, how can you believe that you are NOT documenting information that ONLY relates to these particular guinea pigs? Any place else, in my judgement, it has no practical application.
That's just an example of my feelings about (some of) these government funded studies and what they mean and what they are good for, besides establishing tenure and retirement. I have to really dig for the ellusive nugget of solid (useful) information, but I'm self taught anyway, never depended on anybody else for anything I think I know about predators.
Nothing (at all) personal, Amigo. You do make some good points, and I appreciate you wading back into the mud.
BuzzBoss
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#676916 - 04/11/08 08:14 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: BuzzBoss]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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BuzzBoss, I appreciate your questions and opinion. Many of the researchers are in fact a "different" lot but perhaps we ALL are. In fact, many don't really care too darned much for "Feds" or "state hacks" or, well the list goes on. IMO, Bekoff and Wells and many of the researchers are MUCH too liberal for my taste but they have done meta-anylysis research that helps some of us catch more fur. As far as Michael Jaeger, I've only met him once and he was pretty quiet really. But he is recognized and awarded for his work in his field by his peers and that says something I guess. Bottom line, none of this is the culmination of one or two studies really so it doesn't really serve to "nail" anything down pat. Just gives us a direction for the most part.
DON'T discount ALL science for the not-so-good is my thoughts.
Good Hunting.
Mark
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#676938 - 04/11/08 08:29 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: BuzzBoss]
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scabtrapper
trapper
Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 302
Loc: SE Idaho
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. . . It so happens that the one study area I was refering to, (earlier) in Idaho is run by Dr. Michael Jaeger, whom you quote, and I assume you support his conclusions? I have read his stuff myself and I have to wonder how he can believe any of his data is valid when he is impacting and tracking and helicopter netting his alpha animals. From a friend that spent some time with the gentleman, and who I believe, it seems more like his study coyotes are heading for a nervous breakdown. Some of the things he sees and documents run so contrary to normal coyote behavior, it is almost laughable.
http://www.stoller-eser.com/nerp/coyote2.htm
Is that the study??
_________________________
IDAHO...Currently #1 in DELETED TMAN THREADS
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#676950 - 04/11/08 08:34 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: scabtrapper]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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scabtrapper...thanks, hadn't seen that one before but I see it talks about the newer technology in telemetry. BuzzBoss, is this the one you reference?
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#676970 - 04/11/08 08:43 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Denny Emery]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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I may need a long straw sometime soon. Can I call ya?
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#676977 - 04/11/08 08:45 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Denny Emery]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Fill it with Nitrous Oxide, I love to LAUGH!!
Mark 
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#677002 - 04/11/08 08:55 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Mark June]
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scabtrapper
trapper
Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 302
Loc: SE Idaho
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telemetry studies
There is a biologist in Idaho studying coyotes within a confined area where he regularly nets his animals by helicopter. They also respond (negatively) to his truck as he drives around, locating his various groups and individuals. I'm sure he thinks his data has value and I suppose it is useful for predicting things inside his fence? Otherwise, (my opinion) telemetry studies have limited application for our purpose. I think plain old observation of coyotes reacting to seasonal conditions is more useful in determining so called "core" areas at any given moment. It is not a static situation. Especially considering the pressure involving human activity.
Therefore, I don't agree with this statement: core areas of all coyotes can be determined through telemetry studies.
BuzzBoss
"The Idaho National Laboratory (INL) was designated as a National Environmental Research Park (NERP) in 1975." Last time I was by the "site" as us locals call it out here, there wasn't any fences that would make it a confined area. There are lots of signs that say, "US Property, No Trespassing".
I could be wrong though as I have learned from this thread. I'd have to check with some folks who work out there. There maybe a confined area on the site that Buzz refers to but I know the elk can migrate on and off the site.
Idaho National Laboratory (INL) Elk and Pronghorn
Permit: A pass is required from the Idaho Fish and Game
office, 4279 Commerce Circle, Idaho Falls, to hunt elk in the
Lemhi, Beaverhead or Snake River Elk Zones or pronghorn
in Units 51, 58, or 63 within one-half mile inside the north
and east boundary of the Idaho National Laboratory, which is
adjacent to agricultural land. Hunting of all other species on
INL land is prohibited. IDFG 2008 Big Game Regs
But that study is perhaps similar to YNP coyotes because they aren't hunted or trapped. And as I've learned from this thread, you might not want to compare those yote populations, but that also depends on what you want to accomplish.
_________________________
IDAHO...Currently #1 in DELETED TMAN THREADS
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#677012 - 04/11/08 09:00 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: scabtrapper]
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BuzzBoss
trapper
Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 16
Loc: California
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Yeah, point taken. I'll have to check if it is actually fenced? I may have misspoke? I believe that it is totally restricted entry.
BuzzBoss
edit: I made a call and left a message. In the meantime, let me amend this statement;
"I'm sure he thinks his data has value and I suppose it is useful for predicting things inside his fence?"
To: I'm sure he thinks his data has value and I suppose it is useful for predicting things within the site boundaries?
Edited by BuzzBoss (04/11/08 09:08 PM)
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#677027 - 04/11/08 09:05 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: BuzzBoss]
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scabtrapper
trapper
Registered: 01/07/07
Posts: 302
Loc: SE Idaho
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I believe that it is totally restricted entry.
BuzzBoss
I heard the same thing Buzzbox, rumors of black helicopters show up when you cross the line.
_________________________
IDAHO...Currently #1 in DELETED TMAN THREADS
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#677067 - 04/11/08 09:17 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: scabtrapper]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Straffing the ground is what I heard. On everything.
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#677100 - 04/11/08 09:28 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: scabtrapper]
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StemCell
trapper
Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 116
Loc: East Central, Pennsylvania
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You may not agree with the approach to this particular study, but man would I love to have those gps coordinates overlaid on googleearth and be able to see the terrain features by which the collared coyotes were traveling, and especially where they, stalled out, i.e. rest spots. I see this study indicating a technology that may change a lot of what we presume to know; particularily in the variation the plotting at longer intervals provides over the five minute interval readings. I would also like to be able to ascertain the frequency the critter visited a particular area and the time period between the visits.
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#677143 - 04/11/08 09:42 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Mark June]
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Hunter5454
trapper
Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 82
Loc: Michigan
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Mark June,
231 coyotes! Not bad for a Michigan guy using flawed research!!  GO BLUE!
Just think if you keep getting all of these tips from the guys you might just get 300 next year!! Isn't sarcasm great! 
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#677150 - 04/11/08 09:45 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: StemCell]
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BuzzBoss
trapper
Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 16
Loc: California
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Resist the temptation, StemCell.
His coyotes react to his vehicle's presence by circling at high speed (and out of sight), keeping at least 600 meters between them and the vehicle, and they are verifying this with the telemetry. So, these are supposed to be unexploited animals, and yet when my buddy attempted to call them, they reacted by running away. So far as I know, he never called in a single "unexploited" coyote? That's just one example of what I believe is garbage in, garbage out for all the research accomplishes?
BuzzBoss
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#677161 - 04/11/08 09:51 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Jtrapper]
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StemCell
trapper
Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 116
Loc: East Central, Pennsylvania
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Jtrapper wrote: (page 8)
"StemCell those coyotes taught you something, you must of missed what they are telling you? lol.
Ive stated many times I put in what I call 'sleeper' sets when setting out a coyote trapline. Those are sets i'll not go back near until I either catch something in them or im pulling the line!"
First off, thank you for the informative posts and to mine specifically. I know your assessment is correct; the answer was there for me--Slim actually pointed it out a while back on another thread, however I could not see the forest for the tracks at the time. The approach you suggest "sleeper sets" will be in my bag of tricks this comming season. Is it safe to presume that when you do in fact make a catch in a sleeper set and you are not planning on pulling from the area for a while that you slip another in and let it age?
By the way, Slim's advice to me on the cause at the time was that I had saturated the area with activity, i.e. daily checks and thus changed their wariness level on a daily basis in addition to nearby catch circles. I agree with both his assessment and your offered solution. Thanks.
Someone (Slim?) commented previously about wishing he had the information in this thread when he was 20; heck, if I had had it when I was 20 I would not have taken a 27 year break from trapping. Well done guys!
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#677188 - 04/11/08 10:02 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: BuzzBoss]
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StemCell
trapper
Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 116
Loc: East Central, Pennsylvania
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BuzzBoss
You make a good point regarding this particular study.
However, do you not think this technology in the right researchers hands could still glean information on coyote travels that would be more useful to us if you could review the travel patterns and see what the terrain and foliage features contained?
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#677262 - 04/11/08 10:50 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: StemCell]
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Jtrapper
trapper
Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 7372
Loc: Alabama (Bama for short) 108 y...
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Is it safe to presume that when you do in fact make a catch in a sleeper set and you are not planning on pulling from the area for a while that you slip another in and let it age?
Yep, you got it. However, keep in mind where I am im not dealing with frozen ground usually! A froze down trap won't catch anything! I do make sets with pure peat moss then blend over them with dried grass clippings, the clippings 'mat' down during rainy periods and help preserve the set. If freeze/thaw junk is going on though im not sure how you could have a 'sleeper' set you didn't have to 'mess' with about everyday.
Sorry mess to trap in when it's doing that or coming none stop floods every other day, trappers need to realize such weather is going to cut into the catch numbers no matter what your name is or how long you have been trapping!
If id of had this information when I was 20 id of still been too stupid to understand what anyone was talking about and probably of just made larger mistakes than I did anyway, lol.
_________________________
I ALMOST survived SmackDown Tupelo '08!
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#677389 - 04/12/08 02:04 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: StemCell]
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BuzzBoss
trapper
Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 16
Loc: California
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BuzzBoss
You make a good point regarding this particular study.
However, do you not think this technology in the right researchers hands could still glean information on coyote travels that would be more useful to us if you could review the travel patterns and see what the terrain and foliage features contained?
Here is what I think, since you ask. I think it's a damned shame that some of these people have the opportunity and the wherewithal to do a credible job and they don't seem to understand the first thing about the "Scientific Method". I could site the dreaded (and so called) "GLOBAL WARMING" hysteria for an example. Instead of seeking information and evaluating and reaching conclusions, they begin with a conviction and a mindset and cherry pick their facts to support their halfbaked theories.
I think Dr Jaegar can't see and doesn't understand that he has created an artificial environment. I understand how difficult it would be to conduct this study without interfacing the animals with his devices, but I am suggesting that he's studying his own bowl of cornflakes. He has created this microcosm and he is studying it and documenting it as if it's a whole new world. And, it's an artificial environment.
So, I am suggesting that his telemetry that you believe to be a valuable tool, is actually showing how his animals are ducking and running everytime he drives in the gate. And, when he isn't "studying" them, and depending on the GPS data, they are still hiding in places where they might not otherwise hang out. THESE COYOTES KNOW ABOUT BLACK HELICOPTERS! Now, what do you expect to learn from that?
Just my opinion and I could be wrong.
BuzzBoss
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#677391 - 04/12/08 02:12 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: BuzzBoss]
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BuzzBoss
trapper
Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 16
Loc: California
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DECOY, you could be right about the fences, I might have assumed something? I called my source but he has not returned my call. But, assuming there are no fences, that's a minor issue if I carelessly said they existed when I didn't know? We are still talking about a closed unexploited environment. Nobody messes with these animals besides the Dr. and his assistants. So, he chases them around with vehicles and helicopters and documents how they react. Our tax dollars at work.
BuzzBoss
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#677468 - 04/12/08 08:33 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: BuzzBoss]
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Asa Lenon
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2476
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
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J Trapper wrote...You pull a stunt like that again Mark and im calling you on the phone and have you READ all of that out to me, my eye's are fogged over now, lol.
Me too Mark, your phone is goin' to be buzzin'! Ace
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#677469 - 04/12/08 08:36 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Asa Lenon]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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Sheesh Buzzboss 2AM? Don't you sleep???
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk 
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#677482 - 04/12/08 08:58 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: k9.]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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BuzzBoss,
Whether or not the one study and the one fella you reference, Dr. Jaeger are credible or not, research in the past HAS changed the way coyotes are trapped and poisoned, etc. That major of a decision at the USDA level WAS NOT based on ONE fella OR one study. It was the culmination of years of data and many states and their field personel and biologists. As I said I don't know Dr. Jaeger per se, and there's no all allegiance on my part to him.
Oh and nice point on Global Warming. HAH. Snowing on me again here this am as God takes wrath on those who think they have the "power" to ruin this earth he created!!
I DO NOT BELIEVE in GW one skoosh. I'm old enough to remember as an undergrad student at the U of M... protesters in 1976 through 1980 chanting, "GLobal Ice Age will Kill US ALL.... Global ICE AGE!!" As some will recall, in 1970-80's man was creating the next ICE AGE based on this, that, and the other.  We musta done such a great job since 1980, that NOW we've thrown it the other way!! Nope, NOT following the "blind" research data in this regard. Us humans ain't that good.
So Buzz... I don't follow blindly either.
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#677491 - 04/12/08 09:08 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Mark June]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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....but I could be WRONG and in that case I'll try like heck to catch MANY more yotes this year so that their carbon footprint (exhaled carbon dioxide) is eliminated permently and we can reduce emissions globally and save the whales and seals and such
Kill a yote...save a seal!~
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#677512 - 04/12/08 09:29 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Asa Lenon]
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Jonathan
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Northwestern New York
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The footprints left in the weave of this dialog, tracking the vagabond coyote from land, air and sea through the collective telemetry of the exploratory minds here has been an educational rush for this elder in residence.
Is there going to be room in the Archives for the volume of this advanced dissertation? I do not think there is a coyote on the planet who catches wind of this "set" could possibly avoid it, out of the shear curiosity embedded in their blood type - maybe even more than once to learn things about themselves as a species they were not even aware of.
When a coyote gets zapped with a tranquilizing dart, and human aliens formally dress it up with a radio tie, void of a white shirt without a real collar and a Windsor knot, does it romp back into its home range and continue to behave normally - the only one in a group to have been baptized into the Research Congregational Church?
Jonathan
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#677565 - 04/12/08 10:39 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: Jonathan]
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BuzzBoss
trapper
Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 16
Loc: California
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I think you get the single point I was trying to make, Jonathan. Some information is better than other information. Some people have a bunch of impressive credentials but they ain't very smart. BuzzBoss
PS this board is based on central standard time, or no? I didn't think I was up that late? I am on the left coast, after all.
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#677594 - 04/12/08 11:05 AM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your s
[Re: BuzzBoss]
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Jonathan
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Northwestern New York
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Buzz, I have enjoyed reading your articulate ink drops on this topic. I can relate to your observations because I owned "credentials" (impressive only to me while not tripping over my ego) in a former incarnation as wildlife research biologist, and know how some of this stuff evolves. Though not the least speck bit of an authority on the coyotes, I have read just enough about them over the years to be research journal conscious of some of the chatter in that regard. My aptitude stops there without hesitation. Being just "book smart" is not an open invitation to the podium to expose credentials without personally touching genuine, scientific methodology in a sanctioned field study.
Jonathan
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#677796 - 04/12/08 02:27 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Mark June]
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Coydog
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 153
Loc: Iowa
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Scenario: Several coyotes are trapped successfully in an area for a period of time and then the sets grow cold. Perhaps the coyotes approach close but not close enough OR the darned things don't go near sets at all. What do you do?
Assuming there are still coyotes "there", and I am finding tracks for proof, and they are not coming close or working my locations, being in Iowa I would start looking for places in the fenceline they are coming through and hang snares.
If they are gun shy enough to avoid entering the section after I hang the snares, I would pull out of the section completely and let it cool down . Maybe try and get permission in a neighboring section I know they are possibly coming from and try some well blended sets with different attractors than what I had been using and snares.
I am not a predator control man so I really am not under the gun to nail every coyote, but I do like to try for them whether I am wasting my time or not.
I had a situation similar to what you are describing this past season. Coyotes still there, but would not work. Lousy snaring conditions, and bad weather came in so I got out of there.
Approx 3 weeks later, I went back in, trying to make the least disturbance I could which is tough with 6 inches of snow on the ground. Coyotes were working back through the section to what seemed to me to be pretty relaxed. Working on a deer carcass in a road ditch. The way they were working through was by dropping down into a frozen crick bed and using the ice to get to the road to feed on the deer.
Awesome!
I hung close to a dozen snares in places they seemed to use more than once to get onto the ice. Picked up 1 2 days later. Then mother nature decided to warm up and the crick opened back up. This Variable now changed how the coyotes were traveling through,they were not swimming the crick anymore obviously, but I did notice where they were now crossing the crick at a "missouri crossing" pretty regular.
The snares I set earlier were still in place, pretty much waiting for the crick to re-freeze, so I decided to add 2 footholds on either side of the crossing and see how they reacted .
2 days after setting the traps, I had 1 in a snare, why in the world he hit that snare I have no idea, must have needed a bath because the crick was roaring, and 50 yards away in the 2 traps I put at the crossing I had a pair of coyotes.
Maybe not text book, maybe not what everyone else would have done, but an example of a situation described in the original question, and how it worked out in the end.
Edited by Coydog (04/12/08 03:24 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#677921 - 04/12/08 04:20 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Coydog]
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Mark June
trapper
Registered: 05/17/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska
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Coydog,
The proof was in your pudding... coyotes there when you pull up or walk in. Done deal! Nice job. Were there more tracks later as you pulled your equipment or did you put the hurt on most you think?
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#678136 - 04/12/08 07:17 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Bottomline]
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Jtrapper
trapper
Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 7372
Loc: Alabama (Bama for short) 108 y...
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Hot Rod, i just typed in usda coyote research and this was just the first page, hope you like reading, lol.
[PDF] Urban and Suburban CoyotesFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - View as HTML
our Web site at http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws. Also, information on coyote research is available. from the National Wildlife Research Center’s Web site ...
http://www.aphis.usda.gov/lpa/pubs/fsheet_faq_notice/fs_wscoyote.pdf - Similar pages
USDA - APHIS : About APHISDec 18, 2007 ... USDA/APHIS/WS National Wildlife Research Center ... Coyote behavior in captive environments; Coyote reproduction; Coyote wariness of humans ...
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I ALMOST survived SmackDown Tupelo '08!
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#678259 - 04/12/08 08:28 PM
Re: What do you do when coyotes don't visit your sets?
[Re: Bottomline]
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Jtrapper
trapper
Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 7372
Loc: Alabama (Bama for short) 108 y...
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Well don't read too much of that junk and corrupt your brain, you got a demo to do in a couple of weeks, lol.
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I ALMOST survived SmackDown Tupelo '08!
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