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#637088 - 03/17/08 09:00 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: PSB1011]
Calvin Calvin trapper Registered: 09/12/07 Posts: 958 Loc: Farminton, Minnesota	Honeydog Wrote" "I just read Charles Dobbins book on land sets. He says that a fox will urinate on a hole after it has taken the food out of it so he didn't use urine with bait at a dirt hole most of the time , because he thought it was a signal to other fox that there was nothing left in the hole. He said that a fox will still sniff at the hole , but will not dig at it. " But Charles did use pee in the hole (at the double dirthole) and bait at the other hole in his "Variations of the dirthole" video. Russ Carmen wrote in his book, that the only place for Pee is in the bottom of the hole. He mixes his urine with fox matrix gland lure as well. the urine mixed with Red fox matrix gland lure has worked well for me in the hole as well. Good debate! _________________________ Any day above ground is a good day.
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#637092 - 03/17/08 09:01 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: PSB1011]
TroyMcDaniel TroyMcDaniel trapper Registered: 11/04/07 Posts: 292 Loc: Hillsboro, MO. 36 yr. old	Keep going guy's I am all ear's!!
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#637098 - 03/17/08 09:03 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: goldy]
Mark June Mark June trapper Registered: 05/17/07 Posts: 301 Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska	My best is when I was a lad in my 20's I had a red fox pull a stake during a good stiff rain and I caught him by the other front paw 7 days later... in a set 25 ft from the originally that he pumped out. He had my original trap still on the other paw! Got my fox AND my trap back. (lost the stake though... darned thing musta shook that off). _________________________ http://www.markjuneslures.com
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#637105 - 03/17/08 09:10 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: lrjakes]
PSB1011 PSB1011 trapper Registered: 12/25/06 Posts: 689 Loc: PA	Irjakes,on those subjects I have quite a few opinions,and all of them from firsthand observations from over 24 years of hard trapping,but im not good at putting those things into words,in print,nor vidio form. But we do have on this forum,a real live vidio man,with worldwide internet connections,who,im sure,would love to tell the story. This same dirtbag accused me for 4 years running ,of lying,stealing,furbuying,and spiking my catch with previous years foxes.If the public only knew,before they buy his vidio.
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#637140 - 03/17/08 09:28 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: PSB1011]
GritGuy GritGuy trapper Registered: 12/23/06 Posts: 1250 Loc: Magna, Utah	I'm certainly no expert on any trapping for animals, however I'm not going to say nothing but the books works, and I'll not say any video ain't worth nothing cause you can learn from all. I will say I've never ever put urine down a hole for any critter I'm after, I just never felt the need for it. I can understand the notion of it keeping the scent alive for a long time weather wise, and mixing it in lure also for the same reason. But I also know that a canine sense of smells will pick up scents long after the weather has taken them away from us, so I never tried to weather in the life of urine, or scent for that matter. However I never have done it and I would always catch them by just misting the urine as close to natural as the fox do at anything they would be at when needing to do it. This meant for me near the set or on the bush or a stick, or just on the dirt next to the set on the inside. Guess it was just my feeling to try and stay as natural to the area as I could for normalcy. _________________________
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#637328 - 03/18/08 06:10 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: GritGuy]
Mark June Mark June trapper Registered: 05/17/07 Posts: 301 Loc: Ft. Calhoun, Nebraska	Gritguy, you can't go wrong mimicking Ma Nature. The neat thing about trapping is that just about everything works on occasion BUT what works bset has loads of variables based on where you live, what's the weather. etc. One thing is set in stone though and that's animal behavior. That's why I ALWAYS incorporate behavior "stuff" in my demos, and all I do. Trappers everywhere can't go wrong knowing more about the species they're trying to pinch. _________________________ http://www.markjuneslures.com
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#637335 - 03/18/08 06:18 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Mark June]
Calvin Calvin trapper Registered: 09/12/07 Posts: 958 Loc: Farminton, Minnesota	JLord wrote: now my fox, i've watched him pee on his food before he eats it, i've seen him bury it then pee on the hole. i've also seen him dig it up then pee. and the thing that intrigues me the most is alot of times after he eats he will poop right where his food was, be it in his normal food bowl, or where i might have thrown a beaver foot on the ground to him, or what ever. This is worth noting. Thanks for sharing that observation. _________________________ Any day above ground is a good day.
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#637359 - 03/18/08 07:06 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: goldy]
SWAMPFOX SWAMPFOX trapper Registered: 01/15/07 Posts: 427 Loc: Kent Co. Delaware	I don't know how to pull-down what others have posted so I'll just refer to them as easy as I can.I know most of this post was about pee, and poo.However on the scent issue::::::::::Lennitrapper wrote that he thinks the rust issue is a joke.Thats fine to have come to those conclusions. However a few posts later he mentions traps getting dug-up.I'm not saying that everyone needs to watch their scent.But I don't watch my scent for the fox that are easy to catch.But rather to hang the pelts of the ones that maybe would have avoided my set for some trap contamination issues.Just like anything else we do .Nothing is cut-n-dry.I do believe there seems to be some reds you could have caught with the trap sitting on top of the ground.But then there have been others that have been pretty dog-on slick. _________________________ When I was young, I was extremely broke! Now that I'm old, I'm extremely bent !
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#637382 - 03/18/08 07:29 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: SWAMPFOX]
lennitrapper lennitrapper trapper Registered: 01/14/07 Posts: 1171 Loc: south east pa	i said rust. the traps that were dug i feel had a lure scent on them or were not bedded properly. but for a side note,i dnt have many dug out traps,maby 2 or 3 a year,last year a had a problem fox and had one farm that he dug sets out on 4 times no matter if it was a fresh trap and old trap diffrent lure diffrent sets,but i caught a old narly male and the digging stopped,so i thnk he had been educated but with the pee thing,i use pee on the backing,and gland on the back lip of the hole,always do it the ame way,its the way i was taught and it works, _________________________ "Volunteer firefighters,unpaid professionals"
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#637387 - 03/18/08 07:32 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: SWAMPFOX]
j lord j lord trapper Registered: 12/22/06 Posts: 4108 Loc: TN, just north of Smackdown	thanks for all the replies fellas. i very seldom put uring down the hole, but almost always put urine on the backing. mark, do you know what triggered the different reactions from captive fox to wild fox? why in captivity, even if there are no other fox around, would they urinate on the food. one other thing, and i wasn't going to get into the scent/lure and what reaction was made, but here goes lol. on fox gland lures, (my fox) he will go straight to it without any precaution. coyote gland lure, somewhat cautios, neck stretched out, looking around, but finally get there. cat urine and cat gland lure is a whole new ball game, now thats funny to watch. my bet is the lure that kept them around longer was some kind of cat gland lure or cat urine. lol _________________________ James -------- I survived the timeout of Feb '07 Runnin' With J Lord two disk set
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#637409 - 03/18/08 07:59 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: j lord]
deerhunter65347 deerhunter65347 trapper Registered: 02/15/07 Posts: 539 Loc: saline county missouri	I have caught alot of fox back to back in the remakes of past catches. And they all stink to high heaven of fox. So if they are urinating on something to say there is nothing there it aint working. As i put the urine on the backing. But a curious thing also applies here. Bobcats that ive caught at fox sets have left the area smelling like cats. But still take fox. As a matter of interest i seem to do better on those type of remakes for fox. I think the fox and cats have some sort of relationship of sorts anyone else see this type of behavior. _________________________ Hanging traps make no money Life member of Missouri trappers asso. The school of trapping http://cajunbill.proboards92.com/index.cgi
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#637416 - 03/18/08 08:04 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: PSB1011]
JeremyT JeremyT trapper Registered: 01/18/07 Posts: 1002 Loc: Osage Bluff, MO-30	Originally Posted By: PSB1011 Irjakes,on those subjects I have quite a few opinions,and all of them from firsthand observations from over 24 years of hard trapping,but im not good at putting those things into words,in print,nor vidio form. But we do have on this forum,a real live vidio man,with worldwide internet connections,who,im sure,would love to tell the story. This same dirtbag accused me for 4 years running ,of lying,stealing,furbuying,and spiking my catch with previous years foxes.If the public only knew,before they buy his vidio. Some of us have heard the story before PSB. And we don't/won't own his video. _________________________ Someday, I will be OLD and GROUCHY like Buzzard
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#637460 - 03/18/08 08:41 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: JeremyT]
lennitrapper lennitrapper trapper Registered: 01/14/07 Posts: 1171 Loc: south east pa	^ i second,jealousy is a bad beast and the fellow has it bad _________________________ "Volunteer firefighters,unpaid professionals"
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#637464 - 03/18/08 08:44 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: j lord]
cndgmn cndgmn trapper Registered: 01/19/07 Posts: 271 Loc: PA	This has been a good read.I feel qualified to answer as the only thing keeping me from a 1000 fox season is a full time job $\:\)$ I do a good bit of late season snow trapping and have noticed a few things about urine and fox behavoir.They will generally pee very close to the hole on a clump of grass,clod,etc with them peeing directly on the hole much less.The majority of my late season sets have no urine and seem to do just as well.The reason I use it early is because it gives off a little more odor and may cause them to take a step or two more.I don't think urine will make or break you no matter how you look at it. On the subject of an educated red,you won't even know hes passed through unless theres snow.There are smart dogs and there are dumb dogs,it would be nice to paint with a black or white brush but there is alot of grey area.Most people assume because they caught a red that was previously tampered with that reds are all dumb,its just not the case.While most are like trapping muskrats there are a few sly ones once educated.An educated red will most times ignore/shy away from almost any offering and you'll never know they were there.You can see the tracks in the snow and tell yourself the wind was wrong if its easier to swallow,I do myself sometimes $;\)$ An educated gray on the other hand will scratch at this and that until its eventually caught.My opinions are continually evolving but its my take on it. Edited by cndgmn (03/18/08 08:48 AM) _________________________ "I hate women who complain about being fat when they’re like a size five. Anything under a size five isn’t a woman, it’s a boy with breasts".
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#637468 - 03/18/08 08:49 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: cndgmn]
Gary Gary trapper Registered: 01/08/07 Posts: 8408 Loc: Indiana	oh come on Phil we all know ya buy all your fur $;\)$ $\:D$ _________________________
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#637494 - 03/18/08 09:15 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Gary]
rye rye rye rye trapper Registered: 02/27/08 Posts: 93 Loc: Tennessee	When I was first starting, I noticed that if I use a lot of lure or a stronger lure when it is warm out, I will often have fox scat within a dozen feet of the set, when I used less, I had foxes in my sets. I think if you go too much on the lure that they dont feel the need to get right up on it, they can tell all they need to from a short distance, mark it, and move along. With less or a less strong lure, I think it arouses their curiosity and they go in for a closer sniff. Early in the season I feel that I have more luck with a food/bait and a light lure. I think they are fattening up for when it gets colder, i dunno. Later, like in January I seem to have more luck with a lure and urine combo, i guess as mating season gets closer they get a little more territorial. I do not believe in using bait, lure, and urine at any one set, sets near each other sure, but not at one. I usually go with 2 of the 3 and usually dont combine bait and urine. That is not to say I dont use a scentpost set early in the season or a dirthole with food type bait later in the season, just that is how I do the majority of my sets. To qualify all of that, I am in TN where we have relatively mild winters and I am talking grays. We have some reds in my area but a lot more grays because its pretty heavily wooded and there are a lot of coyotes. This isnt necessarily (or even probably) the best way to do it, but from my experience and in my area, this is what works for me from observation.
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#637497 - 03/18/08 09:16 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Gary]
lrjakes lrjakes trapper Registered: 01/03/07 Posts: 1339 Loc: MD 36 years old	swamp, I agree on the scent issue. i have seen a rash of digging on my line in the past. i am pretty sure i didnt poorly bed all those traps. something got on those traps or my gloves or something. i think cndgmn hit the nail on the head as far as you not knowing what you missed. the average trapper wont even know he had a refusal. i have sat and watched reds walk up to my set, stay about 6 feet away and turn around. had i not been watching, i never would have known there was one there. you dont have to be surgeon clean, but it pays to be a bit careful. i believe its a mistake to just state fox dont mind rust or fuel smells or whatever. same kinda thing with setting against high backing for k9s. you can catch em like that, but why miss a few when you can back away from a stump and make a dirthole? lots of people try to prove something by "debunking" old methods. Then claim proof by making a catch or 2. fox will get into water sets, cages, and conibears too, but thats hardly proof they are effective methods. oh and i am referring to primarily reds. lennin, sounds more like you had a curious coon diggin ya. Edited by lrjakes (03/18/08 09:21 AM) _________________________ Trampas Para Ratas
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#637555 - 03/18/08 10:16 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: lrjakes]
PSB1011 PSB1011 trapper Registered: 12/25/06 Posts: 689 Loc: PA	I have fox that dig up my traps,or part of the trap at times.Most often it is the chain.Think about it,if you stepped on the buried trap chain,you would not feel it ,but a fox steps on it and it moves just a little,he will scratch to uncover it.I highly doubt that when the fox feels the chain move under his foot that he says Ah Ha,that trapper is back,lets make a jerk out of him,and expose the chain,and get the heck out of here.
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#637568 - 03/18/08 10:27 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: PSB1011]
lennitrapper lennitrapper trapper Registered: 01/14/07 Posts: 1171 Loc: south east pa	phil i thought you said you wernt good at putting stuff in to words? _________________________ "Volunteer firefighters,unpaid professionals"
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#637725 - 03/18/08 12:09 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: lennitrapper]
TroyMcDaniel TroyMcDaniel trapper Registered: 11/04/07 Posts: 292 Loc: Hillsboro, MO. 36 yr. old	I'm certainly no fox trapper but am wanting to get there now last year I made sure to change glove's between handling trap's and baiting and I alway's wear rubber boot's. Now I have bought Cameron2 gray fox video and he does none of the above same glove's just regular boot's and set's the trap over his knee so how much does scent really matter to anything.
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#637866 - 03/18/08 02:03 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: goldy]
Hoosier18 Hoosier18 trapper Registered: 08/27/07 Posts: 259 Loc: Wharton, WV	J lord Where did you get that fox at. _________________________ Catch Us If You Can! Yotes-11 Grey Fox-1 Bobcat-0 Coon-3 Oppossum-3 Rabbits-1
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#637911 - 03/18/08 02:39 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Hoosier18]
Buzzard Buzzard trapper Registered: 12/23/06 Posts: 5275 Loc: Caswell County,NC	I dunno........I aint good like Nightwish $\:\($ _________________________ James Lord is my HERO !
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#637917 - 03/18/08 02:42 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Buzzard]
lennitrapper lennitrapper trapper Registered: 01/14/07 Posts: 1171 Loc: south east pa	lrjakes,the reason i feel this was a fox was because it would happen everynight,then i caught the old male and it stopped,it was in the set that he orininaly started digging and i just set it up diffrent _________________________ "Volunteer firefighters,unpaid professionals"
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#638053 - 03/18/08 04:05 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: TroyMcDaniel]
Greg L Greg L trapper Registered: 02/29/08 Posts: 88 Loc: Caseville, MI	Originally Posted By: TroyMcDaniel I'm certainly no fox trapper but am wanting to get there now last year I made sure to change glove's between handling trap's and baiting and I alway's wear rubber boot's. Now I have bought Cameron2 gray fox video and he does none of the above same glove's just regular boot's and set's the trap over his knee so how much does scent really matter to anything. I noticed that too in Tracy's video and I have a theory about it. I believe he is able to get away with a lot more human scent out west for a couple different reasons. He traps in the desert that has no moisture in the soil or in the air. I believe human scent dissipates very quickly in that climate as opposed to the midwest where there is humidity in the air and on the ground that causes human scent to stay at the set longer. Also the area he traps is a lot less populated than it is in the midwest. I have heard it said before that western trapping differs from eastern trapping in that the predators out west may have never learned to associate human scent with danger as opposed to more densely populated areas in the east where they are more apt to have had a run in with a human and associate him with danger. I also believe the grey fox by nature is a lot more bolder and will work the set harder than a red. To me they sure seem somewhat easier to catch. I did notice him doing two things that I would never even take a chance on where I trap in Michigan. He wears leather gloves and uses the same gloves to handle lure and bait that he uses to set his traps. I just use jersey gloves to set the trap and remove them to lure and bait. Also I always wear knee high rubber boots with my pant legs tucked inside to keep from leaving as much of a scent trail to my sets. Just my belief on this topic.
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#638140 - 03/18/08 04:46 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Greg L]
JEFFD JEFFD trapper Registered: 02/29/08 Posts: 92 Loc: UPSTATE N.Y.	Anybody have any pics of dirt-holes being made. (stages)
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#638151 - 03/18/08 04:53 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Greg L]
Cletis Richards Cletis Richards trapper Registered: 12/23/06 Posts: 625 Loc: SW MO Carthage	On the rubber boot issue, it may minimize but not eliminate your scent, I know this is true or how else would my dogs be able to track me 30min later with me wearing hipboots. Also most fox find out what the trap is when their wearing the new brachlet you provided. If they are afraid of metalic objects like traps, how can they cross a single strand of fencing. Gray fox I expect to catch the same night, because there territories are smaller and I feel they are more aggressive. Reds have larger areas and in my oppinion a little shyier. I wear gloves when its cold. Change gloves to lure. But maybe all I caught only the dumb ones. So a majority of them are not to smart. _________________________ April 5, 1948 model
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#638213 - 03/18/08 05:33 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Cletis Richards]
Buzzard Buzzard trapper Registered: 12/23/06 Posts: 5275 Loc: Caswell County,NC	Maybe I should wear rubber boots and rubber gloves, then I could maybe be good like nightwish.......... _________________________ James Lord is my HERO !
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#638250 - 03/18/08 05:50 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: SWAMPFOX]
swampbooger swampbooger trapper Registered: 03/09/07 Posts: 349 Loc: north alabama	Greys are like hormonal teenagers. What interests him today might not even get a second glance tomorrow. Finicky, like a cat. Maybe one day after I get done raising 2 teenage girls, the fox will be easy. Then I'm gonna wear rubber boots and gloves to be like Buzzard!lol
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#638270 - 03/18/08 05:59 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: swampbooger]
j lord j lord trapper Registered: 12/22/06 Posts: 4108 Loc: TN, just north of Smackdown	for the most part especially in my area extreme scent control isn't needed. fox and coyotes come into human contact every single day. i couldn't tell you how many times i've seen coyotes or fox in peoples yards or crossing the road in between houses. how many folks change up lures from warm to cold weather??? or early to late season??? _________________________ James -------- I survived the timeout of Feb '07 Runnin' With J Lord two disk set
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#638285 - 03/18/08 06:07 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: j lord]
swampbooger swampbooger trapper Registered: 03/09/07 Posts: 349 Loc: north alabama	I do... Seems my "good stuff" don't seem too good about the end of Jan. More fox gland and skunk stuff later. Thats all I got to say...LOl
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#638290 - 03/18/08 06:09 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: swampbooger]
j lord j lord trapper Registered: 12/22/06 Posts: 4108 Loc: TN, just north of Smackdown	"good stuff"???? huh what would that be booger? lol _________________________ James -------- I survived the timeout of Feb '07 Runnin' With J Lord two disk set
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#638441 - 03/18/08 07:08 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: j lord]
PSB1011 PSB1011 trapper Registered: 12/25/06 Posts: 689 Loc: PA	JLORD wrote a while ago "how many folks change up lures from warm to cold weather??? or early to late season???" I do,and in a big way,but your weather may not be the same.
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#638617 - 03/18/08 08:06 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: PSB1011]
j lord j lord trapper Registered: 12/22/06 Posts: 4108 Loc: TN, just north of Smackdown	no but a foxs hormones should be the same phil....so whats the trick, lol. _________________________ James -------- I survived the timeout of Feb '07 Runnin' With J Lord two disk set
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#638745 - 03/18/08 09:31 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: j lord]
lrjakes lrjakes trapper Registered: 01/03/07 Posts: 1339 Loc: MD 36 years old	when i started trapping many said the rubber gloves were a must. then i started smellin them sweaty stinkin things and figured they would do more harm than good. _________________________ Trampas Para Ratas
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#638765 - 03/18/08 09:47 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: lrjakes]
Cletis Richards Cletis Richards trapper Registered: 12/23/06 Posts: 625 Loc: SW MO Carthage	Swamp fox you missed my point, you don't have to put on the schrub and bay at the moon and click your heels three times to catcha stupid fox. Even if one does discover your trap and make a ritual of digging it out , he's doomed , scatter a little dirt to show where his back feet are and leave him a little coiled spring present. He'll be trussed up like a christmas turkey. The point I was making you can not eliminate your scent, they know you where there but don't know why till they are wearing your nice little braclet. Been there Done that. _________________________ April 5, 1948 model
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#638773 - 03/18/08 09:59 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: swampbooger]
Cletis Richards Cletis Richards trapper Registered: 12/23/06 Posts: 625 Loc: SW MO Carthage	[quote=swampbooger]Greys are like hormonal teenagers. What interests him today might not even get a second glance tomorrow. What your saying is true, unlike reds more the merrier,with greys sometimes your sets will go dead after catches , I've found if you make another set just out of the catch circle you can catch the leftovers a high percentage of the time. _________________________ April 5, 1948 model
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#638828 - 03/19/08 01:36 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: PSB1011]
Canine Slayer Canine Slayer trapper Registered: 01/13/08 Posts: 139 Loc: Michigan	Where is this pro trapper "NIGHTWISH". I've been watching,waiting,and wondering if he's going to respond to some of these questions and comments. Oh well, I guess he's not interested anymore. I bought his first video, won't buy another one. I use an ice auger with a 8" blade to make his post hole set.HA HA.
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#639612 - 03/19/08 02:52 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: Canine Slayer]
swampbooger swampbooger trapper Registered: 03/09/07 Posts: 349 Loc: north alabama	Lordy, I also think the amount of lure,age/maturity level of the critter has something to do with how they react to each situation. Too much overload on the nose MAY cause the response you mentioned. But I don't know much about critters and just an opinion.
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#639659 - 03/19/08 03:09 PM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: swampbooger]
j lord j lord trapper Registered: 12/22/06 Posts: 4108 Loc: TN, just north of Smackdown	could be booger....i see more poop at my cats sets than at fox sets. didn't really think about it that way.... _________________________ James -------- I survived the timeout of Feb '07 Runnin' With J Lord two disk set
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#640776 - 03/20/08 07:48 AM Re: fox habits...debate away [Re: j lord]
John Graham John Graham trapper Registered: 04/19/07 Posts: 329 Loc: Jordan, Montana	I didn't read all the posts on this thread, but did skim down through them. One thing I didn't see touched on, is the fact that a very high percentage of the fox you have in an area come fall are young of the year (pups). They are usually easier to trap than adults by at least a certain percentage (no, wouldn't take a guess). I think this is true for various reasons, but the 2 that come to mind are obvious. First, they are young, curious, and inexperienced, and, probably a little on the hungry side a higher percentage of the time than an adult fox. Second, they are still in the loose knit family "mode" for the most part. I have spent a considerable amount of times at fox (and coyote) dens and denning areas, and have seen a lot of evidence that shows that mother foxes will 'locate' their pups. By this I mean as the summer months progress into say August, she will have her pups scattered in 2's and maybe 3's over a greater area than the original den site. This will cause some people to think there are several seperate dens, but that is a differant topic. Anyway, these pairs and maybe 3's of littermates will alot of times be the ones you catch at your sets where one set will be the hot one, and the other set or two there will remain untouched. Sure, you will catch your doubles, triples, and more (have had 7 at a spot once) because the family group is still loosely intact. The original pair of fox will also loosely hang together, but they obviously breakup somewhat as the season progresses, like late Nov. or early Dec. in Montana. The 'dog' fox (males) will really put on some miles then, and show up in sets and locations that hadn't seen activity for a week or two. I have had days of 16-18 big males out of say 20 fox. These are fox that are filling in areas that have a void due to the ones that were caught earlier. The pups are 'programmed' by seeing and smelling smells of other fox (their littermates) from day ONE. This is what helps catching them with urine, gland, and bait, whatever. By using them in comination, you are imitating what they have seen their entire life. I have trapped fox in several states, and I can tell you that they CAN be harder to catch in some areas. At least in numbers. The biggest factor is the amount of sign you leave at a set I believe. There are lots of other factors, and yes, bobcat smells work great for reds at least, having said that, I still think coyote gland will catch as many or more fox than fox glands most years.
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