#524017 - 01/17/08 03:23 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Freepop]
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CharlesKS
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7035
Loc: Kansas,31,6-1,220,B/B NS
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i have no idea.
cant say if any i use cause that or not, but i tend to think i wouldnt want that.
i want the coyote to work a set, i dont want him looking on the ground for a place to put his foot, i want all his concentration on the HOLE...therefore, in my reasoning, and im sure im OVERTHINKING this, but if a lure illicits a rolling responce, i envision the coyote making one step with his foot, then kneeling to get his neck down, then flat on his back...that doesnt create many foot steps.
that is a good point...id like to know the lure and the the author though..
_________________________
without farm subsidies, you box of cornflakes will cost you 15$ 
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#524842 - 01/17/08 10:09 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Andy S]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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"Forget the "books" and videos. Do your thing, practice and observe and tell yourself what works for you in your geography. End of the hunt!"
Best advice on the thread Jonathan.
The best teacher is the coyote and an open minded trapper.
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk 
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#525105 - 01/18/08 06:55 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: k9.]
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Freepop
trapper
Registered: 05/09/07
Posts: 687
Loc: South Central Michigan
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that is a good point...id like to know the lure and the the author though..
I don't like to put into print too much that people publish as I think it's unfair to the author if it prevents him from selling even one more book. The author was Russ Carmen, can't remember the lure. He was working with the government and they tested lures year round. A lure that's down a hole can't get rolled in but once the animal was able to get it out, he took it a short distance from the set and rolled in it. Hence he had to work the set very good.
Mr Carmen also mentioned that when he was on the line, he'd frequently stop and wash his tools in a crick, to clean or reduce odors. Not too far of a concept that some of the practices many other authors and veterans apply on their lines, from what I read.
Freepop, Keep an objective open mind, ingest what all of this ink has spelled so far to you and get your mind in gear. With all due respect, if your questions have not been answered thusfar, you are not paying attention to this movie.
Forget the "books" and videos. Do your thing, practice and observe and tell yourself what works for you in your geography. End of the hunt!
Jonathan
Jonathan, just engaging in a little bantor on the net during down time at work. It's a good discussion, in my opinion and I have to thank Charles and everyone else for providing my malnourished brain, some food for thought. I'm new to this game, just started last fall, but am not a spring chicken so I'd like to shorten my learning curve and be a liitle more productive than I am now. My mind is in gear, actually working overtime on my newest outdoor activity and I will succeed. Maybe my movie comprehension skills are a little inept, I'll have to work on that too. At this point in time I dont have the time and experience to know what works for me, thus the ink I've spilled.
Thank you all for your contributions and patience,
John
aka Freepop
_________________________
Born to hunt, forced to work
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#525455 - 01/18/08 11:23 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: MNcooner]
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LT GREY
trapper
Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 5554
Loc: Central Ohio
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This human scent thing sure gets a lot of controversy...but in many cases, it doesn't matter that much. Somebody ask Phil Brown if he worries about human scent....and I'll bet you he doesn't! He probably isn't at a set long enough!!!  O'Gorman once said he always knelt at a set, because it was easier and besides...he didn't have scent gland on his knees anyway.... TRUE! The best high rollers are NOT that overly concerned with it as a rule! Those are the ones you need to talk to!!!
He see guys who are heavy smokers, who handle traps and bait bare handed and still catch lots of animals...(now how can that be?, because I can tell if a guy smokes Winston, Marlboro or menthal by the scent he leaves on "my hand after shaking it"....) But maybe cigerette scent doesn't bother animals....who knows?
If an animal has been "messed with"... sure, it's spooky Even old beaver can get real sharp at times....but year old pups, which are the bulk of what we catch....Nah! 
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#525816 - 01/18/08 03:20 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Asa Lenon]
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CharlesKS
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7035
Loc: Kansas,31,6-1,220,B/B NS
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99% of us are fur trappers.
i dont car eif its an alpha male,. beta female, pup, grandma, old codger, or whatever.
fur is fur. im not out to prove to myself "LOOK, I CAUGHT HE OLD COYOTE"...whoope, dont matter. for pride only. if your after numbers and not DAMAGE control, pups pay teh same as old ones. there are more pups in a area than there is alpha males anyway.
_________________________
without farm subsidies, you box of cornflakes will cost you 15$
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#525819 - 01/18/08 03:22 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Mac]
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CharlesKS
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7035
Loc: Kansas,31,6-1,220,B/B NS
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ISo, let me get this straight.
You are saying Charles Dobbins did know what he was talking and writing about? I have read his books and took instructions.
Waiting to hear that he did not know what he was talking about.
Come Expert Andy, tell me that Charles was a goof off, an old dub that was out of his head for using this technique.
Waiting. At least your pal Charly said it was a waste of time, space and money not just laugh it off.
Mac
NOBODY has EVER or will ever discredited Mr. Dobbins. I certqwainly am not, will not, COULD NOT.
i just have a different OPINION.
this is why anymore im getting to where i cant hardly be serius, as somebodys always sitting back waiting to be offended, or mad.
SO EVERYONE WILL KNOW...you CAN NOT make me mad. period.
_________________________
without farm subsidies, you box of cornflakes will cost you 15$
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#525860 - 01/18/08 03:40 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: CharlesKS]
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Asa Lenon
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2476
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
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CharlesKS wrote...
99% of us are fur trappers.
i dont car eif its an alpha male,. beta female, pup, grandma, old codger, or whatever.
fur is fur. im not out to prove to myself "LOOK, I CAUGHT HE OLD COYOTE"...whoope, dont matter. for pride only. if your after numbers and not DAMAGE control, pups pay teh same as old ones. there are more pups in a area than there is alpha males anyway.
Hmmmmmmmmm, I'm not sure I understand the above statements. Are you saying that harvesting mostly pups and few adults rather than adding more adults to the harvest for a larger harvest is an OK proceedure as long as one is trapping for fur instead of bounty??? Ace
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#525905 - 01/18/08 03:59 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Asa Lenon]
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CharlesKS
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7035
Loc: Kansas,31,6-1,220,B/B NS
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YES!
when your fur trapping, its about the numbers. unless you goal is to catch all adults, and if thats your goal, nothing wrong with that.
but in the name of making $$, or TRYING to, you need to catch the easiest, most available animals in an area. Catching adults isnt hard, but in my opinion, its not crucial. It isnt something I FEEL one needs to NOT be worring about.
Edited by CharlesKS (01/18/08 04:02 PM)
_________________________
without farm subsidies, you box of cornflakes will cost you 15$
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#526144 - 01/18/08 05:42 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: CharlesKS]
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MNcooner
trapper
Registered: 10/20/07
Posts: 732
Loc: MN
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NOBODY has EVER or will ever discredited Mr. Dobbins. I certqwainly am not, will not, COULD NOT.
i just have a different OPINION.
this is why anymore im getting to where i cant hardly be serius, as somebodys always sitting back waiting to be offended, or mad.
Hey Charles, Asa, K9, Andy, Calvin, WHOEVER:
About 1% of the poeple on here get cranky and offended at your posts.
The rest of us sit here and LISTEN.
Please don't stop posting your opinions. I suspect that I will use something from EVERYONE when I get out there next fall and go after the K9s HARD.
I will take something I've learned from all you guys and find something that works FOR ME. And EVERYONE who has contributed to a thread like this has got my attention.
This is the internet, which makes it easy for people to just GO OFF on each other, because we are not all sitting in the same room face to face, so we all gotta have thick skins.
PLEASE don't stop posting for fear someone is going to get ticked off. Remember the 99% of us that are LEARNING! That's all I ask next time you consider NOT posting for fear someone is going to get ticked off.
Thanks
_________________________
2007 Catch Totals:
7
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#526275 - 01/18/08 06:43 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: MNcooner]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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I have posted this before and will post it again, my thoughts about human scent. I tend to think that coyotes cannot afford to avoid human scent in my area. Far too much of it around with literally thousands of pheasant and deer hunters taking to the field in the fall, mixed in with the farmers and trappers. It is like the old adage that they avoid the smell of steel.
No way no how!
They duck under fences, walk over old buried horseshoes and other steel, walk through gates and cattle guards every day. If a coyote feared the smell of steel he would sit in the middle of a field and never go anywhere.
Same for human scent. Too many daily encounters with human scent to be running from it at every turn. In fact, I would see some coyotes as having a feeding response when they smell human scent, as they clean up deer gut piles and pheasant cleanings all the time.
I am not saying don't wear rubber gloves. If that trips your trigger go for it. If it boosts your confidence then have at it. What I have been trying to say for years, and will say again is focusig on one issue or aspect of trapping coyotes can be very unhealthy for a trapper's learning curve.
Contrary to earlier comment, I have met MANY trappers who blame human scent for thier lack of success. You can tell by talking with them that they fail to think past that issue and deal with other issues they may have.
Understand and cater to a coyote's basic needs, and you will catch them bare handed or gloved up. Gloving up does no harm whatsoever, until a trapper starts thinking that success or failure is determined by scent control.
Then it starts to matter a lot.
I have thought deeply trying to understand if coyote's are different in various areas, and I am confident that I have it figured out. No I have not gone to those areas, but have heard from trappers on both sides of the issue.
Coyotes are only as smart as we make them, and they are only smarter than us if we think they are.
Never have seen a coyote driving a car, or being a CEO for a major company. They are pretty much just coyotes.
Charles is right the fur buyer does not pay any better for a smart one, however I want to catch every coyote that comes by when I make a set. I catch a considerable number of old coyotes each year, and I am betting Charles does too.
Some of us flat out kill coyotes, some sit behind a computer and provide you with theory who are not killing coyotes, but the fact is no matter who you get advice from the coyote is your best teacher. You are better off taking an extra ten minutes on your line and following those coyote tracks a ways, then you are on here listening to us.
No better book on coyote behavior has ever been written, than the ones that the coyotes write in the snow, everyday.
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#526457 - 01/18/08 07:37 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Asa Lenon]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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"Professional" methods?
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#526596 - 01/18/08 08:21 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Freepop]
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Blak coyote
trapper
Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 1613
Loc: N.e.WI.
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Charles, your my hero. I've had sets out for 3 weeks now and no canines. Tracks within 5 feet and on the downwind side. Maybe I need to get some chew.
To think Freepop, canines within 5 feet of your sets that are right on location just like Charles' and still no results. Hmmmmm, there must be some other factors other than location to consider here!!!! Ace
A couple things to consider here is this.How long has the season been going on where yor at?Are there other trappers in the area or even within a few miles.It seems when you get late in the season most of the surplus critters are either dead or seen just about everything,but also I think lure burnout occurs,by this time coyotes have probably smelled just about every lure in the catalogs,they know what the lure is,they've been there done that.
I've read some of the old trapping material over the years and notice alot mentioned about bounty.Talking to old timers as well,and I think the old methods had merit back then just for the simple fact everyone and their brother was gunning or trapping for what they could get there hands on.I think back then if a coyote smelled human scent it was either shooting at him or jumping out of the ground at him.Extra caution had to be taken if you wanted to connect,same went with hunting deer or bear,poaching laws were hard to enforce and everything was fair game year round,just talk to someone who's been around in these areas 60 years or more,things have changed alot since.I think animals come in more human contact now then back then,but not everyone is shooting at them or trapping for them now days.Take for example around here 20 years ago,if you went deer shining the minute your spotlight hit the field the deer would be running for cover because there was alot of poaching going on,now you can go out and they just stand there and look at you.Animals get conditioned to pressure and the experiences that come from that pressure.
I don't worry about scent like I use to,I just dress comfortable and punch in my sets and move on.I've run into guys that looked like there attire was made by rubbermaid and complain there not doing any good.They probably sweat more.Paying attention to detail,practice and location and doing it quickly and moving on goes along way.
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#526785 - 01/18/08 09:19 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Asa Lenon]
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j lord
trapper
Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 4106
Loc: TN, just north of Smackdown
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same here jackie, i read it at the beginning when it started the other day, i might have even posted then i don't remember. but new there would be the five or six fellas on here, like asa, k9, blak coyote, charles, andy...but figured you would be too j.
i've been on this site for years now, and still don't get tired of the heated debates....its what makes people think for themselves instead of several people sayin one thing and then the newbies think it has to be that certain way because so an so on tman said it.
with all that said...i'm not a clean freak. i do make sure my traps are free from lure/bait/urine scent, other than that, not much else i worry about. i wear gloves but its to keep my hand in better shape and cleaner. i kneel on plastic but it is to catch dirt for flat sets, and to keep my knees dry when i aint wearin waders. i pittle around set areas sometimes, check sets up close, don't relure for canines at all, just re-urinate. i don't catch 100 yotes a year, but i catch my share for my time.
coyotes are plentiful here so i don't have to be worrying about "am i gonna catch one here".... its "i know i'm gonna catch one here"
_________________________
James
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I survived the timeout of Feb '07
Runnin' With J Lord two disk set
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#527052 - 01/19/08 01:02 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Calvin]
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Steven G Trosper
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 359
Loc: Perrysville, Indiana
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First things first, thank-you Asa Lenon for saying my posts make a trapper think. That is what I try to do. Am I trying to change Asa Lenon's mind on human scent? NO! He has his way and I have mine. He knows far more about catching canines in the UP than I ever will. If he said to catch canines in the UP, you had to not only wear rubber gloves and boots, but also hop on one leg to the set, I would do that if trapping in the UP.
Around here, coyotes, foxes both are in daily contact with human scent. For them to be afraid of human scent will make it hard for them to eat.
In one issue of TRAPPER'S WORLD, I wrote an article on my trapping in my Junior year in high school. In that article was a map of my trapline that year. Count the number of houses in that 1/2 mile square area. Yet, I caught fox.
Areas where there are not many people, canines will be on guard, but they still can be caught!
I doubt rubber gloves and boots will stop human scent. If they did, then anyone trying to escape capture by the law can just put on rubber boots and gloves and become "invisible" to the dogs TRAINED to track. To those in law enforcement, will that work? If not, then rubber does not hide human odor.
I think it was Jim Helfrich, in one of his fox trapping books, who made the statement our bodies are a cess pool of odors.
We do not know, for sure, what smells canines can pick up on that are invisible to our nose. Yet, most all of us can catch canines.
Back in 1987, I trapped coyotes for one farmer who was having coyote problems. I got tired of skinnig the stinking things so spit tobacco juice on a set that I just re-made after another coyote catch. The next day I had another coyote in that trap. A big coyote!
I left the sets in because the farmer knew they were there and wanted all the coyotes caught.
_________________________
Unless kids are brought into trapping; trapping dies of old age.
Remember; Rush Limbaugh is always right.
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#527187 - 01/19/08 08:04 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Steven G Trosper]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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"If he said to catch canines in the UP, you had to not only wear rubber gloves and boots, but also hop on one leg to the set, I would do that if trapping in the UP."
LOL!!!
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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