#523184 - 01/16/08 10:52 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: pothole sam]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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"it had nothing to do with scent, scent free, luck, stupid kansas coyotes, but had everyhting to do with me being on top of a major travel way between a river and a pasture on one place, and along side a crp field on another. basicvally, i found the best location, and was on top of the coyotes."
Go Charles go!
You guys do what you want with scent control. What becomes unhealthy is when you get tunnel visioned on one issue, and blame all success or failure on that one issue. It keeps you from having an open mind and learning all you can about trapping.
I have seen guys who are off location, contrary to windage but close to coyotes, nasty looking sets, using unproven baits or lures, or just making a couple sets and expecting daily catches who could not think past the human scent issue to deal with the real problems on thier lines.
Are you using proven scents or making your own?
I keep asking that because we have had many guys on here that are just learning to trap coyotes, and are also trying to learn to make lures. Combine most learning experiences and you have a recipe for failure. Get consistant with one before you try to master the other.
Do not fall into the trap of justifying your lack of production or failures by convincing yourself that your coyotes are somehow "different" or "smarter" than other coyotes in other regions. That thinking will close your mind from dealing with whatever real problems you are experiencing on your line.
What does vary is the coyote's needs depending on the time if year. Location can vary too due to those needs. A good early fal location may not be any good late winter with lots of snow on the ground.
Another variable to assess when comparing your success with other trappers is where they are from. No coyote is any smarter than any other no matter where they call home. Some will theorize that western coyotes are easy because they are overpopulated or dumb. The reason western guys catch more is they have more ground to work, thousands of acres compared to little farms in the east. They have extended checks, with less human interferance and pet issues. When you see a dozen coyote caught in one day by a western trapper, remember that is often a three day check/catch. They also have more equipment available to them.
So, to assume that one areas coyotes is somehow different than western ones, closes your mind to understand all those other things I just mentioned.
I do not think human scent control is important. However I support your right to wear rubber boots and all that stuff. Just do not convince yourself that human scent is the center of all your coyote problems, or you will handicap yourself from dealing with the REAL issues that effect a trapline.
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk 
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#523206 - 01/16/08 11:01 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: k9.]
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CajunBill
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 172
Loc: Sylacauga Ala
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#523287 - 01/17/08 01:00 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Calvin]
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Steven G Trosper
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 359
Loc: Perrysville, Indiana
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I think possibly the sets appearance has a certain degree of importance depending upon the same variables as the human and foreign scent issue being that it varies in importance from region to region depending upon the coyote's conditioning.
Yep! Asa, you hit the nail on the head!
Around here, you can not go a mile and not come across at least one house. So canines here have become use to human scent.
In the UP of Michigan, I would do like Asa Lenon does. He has more experience with canines where he lives, and knows what works and what does not work-there.
I bet you catch canines from here and take them to the UP of Michigan, those canines will not be as afraid of human scent as the native canines are. Just like you take canines from the UP and and bring them here, they will be very jumpy because of all the human scent.
Really, it boils down to confidence. If you believe that human scent is an issue and you set bare-handed, your scent will be different from when you use rubber gloves. That is what canines will pick up on.
My dad caught canines, both fox and coyote with ease-he smoked. At times it was cigarettes, other times it was a pipe with Prince Albert. He caught canines easily. My Uncle Earle, dad's youngest brother, who was 10 years older than dad and was the one who taught dad to trap. He was never able to catch canines. Even after dad would show Uncle Earle how to make a set and even give him lure dad had used and had success with. Uncle Earle let everything bother him-he was perpetually peeved. I think that was the reason he could never catch fox or coyotes. Dad was more relaxed and was easy going.
We have no idea what smells canines pick up that are unknown to us because of our poor sense of smell. Who knows, the lure maker's odor plus the trapper's odor may be the real draw for canine lure. The other ingredients only help call the canines to the set.
_________________________
Unless kids are brought into trapping; trapping dies of old age.
Remember; Rush Limbaugh is always right.
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#523409 - 01/17/08 07:53 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: tstuller]
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k9.
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3192
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
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Calvin are there a lot more coyotes out west?
Some places out West, say Wyoming for example, have got areas that the coyotes are pounded on every day by GMen in planes, denning, trapping, etc. Coyotes in Iowa or MN get pressure fron say Oct on to Jan. Coyotes in many western states get pressure EVERY DAY. There are places in the west where the fox population is regaining strength because the coyotes have been pounded down so hard.
So even if there are more, say per square mile, which I do not 100% buy, they should be super coyotes by the time fall fur trapping rolls around. Even with all the pressure they are still just coyotes.
I do not have the time to research if there are studies showing coyotes per mile in say Iowa VS Wyoming. I will say this. Most of us assume larger populations in the west because of the large catch pictures we see coming from the west. Not to take anything away from those guys, but they get three day checks, which means they run three times the traps. They also have live coyoyes in thier traps attracting more coyotes in to the area to get caught in thier gang sets. They have M-44's, good snarable sage/brush, with one knock at a door access to hundreds of thousands of acres, literally hundreds of thousands of acres of BLM they can trap for free, gunning from planes, and on and on and on.
Now it's not heaven out there, as there are access issues etc etc that they have to deal with, but the point is we look at thier catch photos and from OUR eastern perspective, think that they have alot more coyotes than we do.
Most of us also assume higher populations of coyotes in the west because of the fact that they have government programs to control them. Is that a reflection on a higher coyote population there? or is it a reflection on a stronger group of livestock producers who's life depends on livestock? As opposed to the guy in Iowa who just HAS some sheep to keep the weeds down.
I have not seen the numbers comparison, say for example in a biological survey, as far as coyotes per squaremile is concerned. I know that Iowa has a strong coyote population.
You are right Calvin, a hungry coyote is a more vulnerable coyote. That holds true no matter WHERE that coyote lives. More important to me, than controlling human scent, is knowing where that hungry coyote goes for food and putting my equipment there.
My point is, I have met some guys who blame ALL on human scent, so much so that they never think past it to solve thier real problems, such as understanding the coyote's basic needs and putting thier equipment in such places to take advantage of it.
I'd rather have one set made barehanded and no regard to human scent put ON a hot location any day of the week than have ten sets made with rubber gloves and booties five feet OFF location and contrary to windage.
_________________________
2008 One coon One skunk
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#523475 - 01/17/08 08:32 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: k9.]
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Asa Lenon
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2476
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
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Calvin: I agree wholeheartedly with your statements. Many trapper I have known over the years have trapped long line from here to many Western locations. ALL have reported a great deal of difference in trapping the two locations.
Steven Trosper: Your thoughts always make one think. Perhaps as you have suggested over time that an individuals particular odor many be more alarming to canines than that of another. This could very easily account for the widespread opinions on the human scent subject. Also, as you have pointed out, medications one may be taking or desease may alter ones odor to make it more alarming to canine. For example, if I take a vitamin B-1 tablet I can smell the vitamin in the sweat of my hands. Perhaps handling a trap with this odor might be the trigger that causes set rejection. If I can smell it, how would that odor come across to an animal that can smell a minimum of 400 times more acutely than myself. Thanks for your ideas Steven!
k9 wrote: My point is, I have met some guys who blame ALL on human scent, so much so that they never think past it to solve thier real problems, such as understanding the coyote's basic needs and putting thier equipment in such places to take advantage of it.
I can't relate to that statement K9. I've been associated with trappers on a daily basis, both amateur and professional since 1942 and I have yet to meet anyone who went overboard or thought human scent control was the silver bullet. All of the most successful trappers I have been acquainted with used common sense simple to apply scent control such as clean gloves, clean footwear, used kneeling cloths when kneeling to make a set, avoided brushing up against foliage when possible and most of all learned to make sets quickly and avoid tracking needlessly around all ove the set areas.
Ace
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#523544 - 01/17/08 09:13 AM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: k9.]
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Calvin
trapper
Registered: 09/12/07
Posts: 958
Loc: Farminton, Minnesota
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I don't know the west well enough to comment in any depth. I have been out to Nevada and Calif (desert region) and saw yotes running around in the daylight. At night the hills come alive with howling. My dad took a photo of a yote that that was waiting for traffic to pass on the side of the road a few years back. He pulled over, Stopped, rolled his window down and took the photo of the yote less than 10 feet away from him. "Looked" to be a healthy coyote from the photo, anyhow.
I understand your points, however. VAST tracts of land out there and eleswhere. A trip to South dakota a few years ago revealed this to me. One rancher stated that they shot 75 coyotes out of helicopter off his ranch in one day. (I can't confirm that number...seems abit high to me). If thats true, however, These yotes will act quite differently than the yotes do around here (small farms at best with way too many people in between).
"On location" also differs from area to area. Around here, you usually don't have the luxury to pick exactly where you want your trap. Too many people, pets,houses, etc. Gaining permission around here might be a 30acre corner of someones 150acre farm. Thats all you get and you have to do the best with what you got. Many coyotes run circuits around here. (4-10 day circuits). Some times it takes awhile for them to come around...and some times you only get one shot. This makes you pay alittle more attention to what your doing.
I once saw a farmhand catch a coyote in a old, rusty #2 victor he grabbed off barn wall (I wouldn't consider that a dirty trap) I don't know if he used gloves or not. However, that was a nursing female, and I would argue that the farmhand (after working in turkey poop all say) didn't much smell like a human anymore. with this, peoples smells can be quite abit different as well as we all are going to vary depending on where we have been earlier on in the day,kind of work, pets, etc.
Like I stated earlier: I never caught Fox or coyotes around here until I got total grasp of the scent issue. They also let me know when I mess up in this area from time to time (set avoidance, diggers, etc). This has been my finding around here. I/m quite sure most of you would find that same responses if you trapped my area. Surely there are many areas out there just like mine due to urban sprawl.
One more point: Someone brought up "confidence"...Confidence is aquired through success. Not the other way around. I also feel there are plenty of trappers that have way too much confidence in themselves and when an animal walks past their set or does something unfavorable, they have just pass it off as a fluke because its easier to not address the real problem. I believe the real pros of trapping don't just blow it off but rather give it some real thought. I/m not a pro but it bugs the crap out of me when an animal walks right past my set (when I/m quite sure he saw or smelled it).
Edited by Calvin (01/17/08 09:17 AM)
_________________________
Any day above ground is a good day.
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#523897 - 01/17/08 01:45 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Moses Keokuk]
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Jonathan
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 1814
Loc: Northwestern New York
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This topic has been reviewed and discussed at significant length in the past on this forum since I have been a member here. I just found two of my older comments in response to a topic entitled "Scent Control" for your review.
___________________________________________________________________
I am quite "odor" conscious at my red fox sets - have been for over 50 years because that is the way I learned from my mentor when I was a kid. Found no reason not to have believed him to this very day. My basic method is comprised of boiled, dyed and waxed traps. At the set, I use a very heavy canvas 3-ft square drop cloth to kneel on, and wear a dedicated pair of gloves during actual trap setting, luring barehanded - being careful not to get lure on the trap bed, traps or other equipment.
To me, it is not regarded as being anal, or going overboard - just precautionary for my trapping techniques. If I get sloppy and leave too much of my odor around, I can see it at the set with avoidance using otherwise sound technique.
This may be a regional consideration in my case. There are trappers in other states who take virtually no precautions to minimize their residual odor at canine sets - no gloves, no boots, basically nothing, and catch red fox and coyotes in numbers. I will continue what has worked for me out of habit. It requires little to extra real effort on my part to gear up for it that way.
Jonathan
_________________________________________________________________
I have been on "location" with my red fox trapping since 1954, and continue to minimize odor as much as possible. We are on opposite ends of the continent, and, as you know, trapping any animal does not have universal applications over the miles. You aren't "wrong" - you can get away with it, and I cannot.
I have never been able to understand the wide range of red fox traits and behavioral set responses to human "odor" among the diversity of trap lines across the country and how trappers from here adapt to the degree of tolerances and latitude the fox/coyote populations give them in this regard.
It is not a psychological hang up, whereby I think that a fox is smarter than I am, because I know they are not. Although, I have come across a few who have played with my head until they forgot how I was paying attention to what they thought they were trying to do to bluff me. They live in a fur coat or collar somewhere now on the other side of the Atlantic or Pacific.
Overall geography, human population density influence, trapping competition and hunting have to factor into this along the trail in some shred of evidence. Who knows? I do not.
If we as trappers all went to the same "school," life would be very dull. Some of my red fox must have advanced graduate degrees in their survival genomes, genetic memory and DNA, because I cannot get away with being "odor" insensitive.
Interesting topic. Hopefully, some of the seasoned, experienced, professional canine trappers can share their thoughts on the 'scents' of this from different regions across the country from personal experience over the years.
Jonathan
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#523918 - 01/17/08 02:02 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Freepop]
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ADC
trapper
Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 4445
Loc: Iowa
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Seems to me as long as it doesn't hinder you ability to make the sets quickly and move on, you've got nothing to lose by being as "clean" as possible. Whether or not it helps I can't see how it would hurt and if it gives you more confidence in your sets it will surly mean more catches. You have to also understand that scent control isn't the only aspect of being successful there are many more variables to get right to get "all your ducks in a row".
~ADC~
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#523961 - 01/17/08 02:40 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Freepop]
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CharlesKS
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7035
Loc: Kansas,31,6-1,220,B/B NS
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Okay, one more question, for now.
So, quite obviously you guys use the same tools for remakes. Do you feel that the scent from those tools used at remakes may actually help you at new sets, because they have animal odors on them and it may arouse curiosity and/or confidence?
makes no difference. to me, using seperate tools for remakes is a complete waste of money, time, and space. Heck, its all i can do to keep up with ONE set of things.
Whats really the difference in using the same tool after a remake to make a new set, than using GLAND lure at the fresh set?
Edited by CharlesKS (01/17/08 02:42 PM)
_________________________
without farm subsidies, you box of cornflakes will cost you 15$ 
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#523996 - 01/17/08 03:05 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Freepop]
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CharlesKS
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7035
Loc: Kansas,31,6-1,220,B/B NS
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the animal is not supposed to know theres a TRAP there!
But is he gonna want to put his foot on some gland lure, or roll in it? and if it's directly on my trap....
Freepop......
clear you mind, let go of your prejudices and fallow me for a minute.
ever use a walkthrough set? a small blocking on the loose jaw side of the trap? THAST where i put my gland lure. now, thast only 1/2" from my trap. I had ZERO rolls. I think your thinking theres only one place for scent to be, in a hole. I put my urine to the sides of the blocking. thats only 1" form the trap. were talking such a small amount of difference.
about the rolling, if the problem you suggested were TRUE, they would roll on the remakes, would they not? theres a 3 foot circle that smells like coyote. they do not roll all over the whole catch circle.
alot can be learned form deep logical thought, however, sometimes one can overthink the answer, and wind up crwating new problems...
SLAP THE SET IN AND GO..
_________________________
without farm subsidies, you box of cornflakes will cost you 15$
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#524011 - 01/17/08 03:15 PM
Re: Human Scent
[Re: Freepop]
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CharlesKS
trapper
Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7035
Loc: Kansas,31,6-1,220,B/B NS
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remember, lures, bait, are designed to either peak thier curiosety, enrage territrial defence, or fool the animal into thinking its food.
never seen my dog roll on its food bowl 
rotten, nasty dead animals or cow poo, yea, they'll roll.
_________________________
without farm subsidies, you box of cornflakes will cost you 15$
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