Red fox with pups

Hello All,

I have a client that has a den of fox living under two of her out buildings. She has a litter of little ones that she carries from one building to the next. They are active during the day. She wants them harassed so they will move out. How can this be done?

Thank you

Hassle the pups, she'll move 'em quick.

Pee on the holes.

X2

Make noise, play a raccon fight tape, bang pots and pans, jump up and down on the floor, shine lights under the sheds, sprinkle 3 kinds of urine, block off all access but one hole, and sell an exclusion barrier installation as part of the job. Also sell clean up & sanitation of the URINE SOAKED GROUND, remove FECEs, flea and mange control, and remove all pup toys such as squirrel tails, bird wings, maggotty boneys, cat parts, and fru-fru dog indigestables. Give lots of true information about rabies, parvo, mange, FECES, URINE, etc.

go number two in the holes. Kit nap one of the kittens and leave a note behind for the rest to move out.

I get 5 or 6 calls every year regarding foxes with pups under sheds in town or at the edges of towns. Only once did I have to remove the family, as the mother would charge the kids in the yard when the pups would walk up to the kids. Children were 2 and 5, and someone was going to get bit.

Other than that one time, I always convince the people to leave them alone. They are in town to escape predation from coyotes, and typically leave when the pups get 7 or 8 weeks old. They will take care of moles, voles, mice, rats, small snakes, and anything else that people HATE. All at no cost.

Everyone ends up telling me later they loved watching the adults teach the pups how to hunt and play. NEVER has anyone wished they would have had them removed. Education is key. The only issue is if they are living under a porch or deck, the smell is worse than skunk spray.

Determining if they are truly a problem is the first step. If I went after every animal that people call me about I'd never sleep. After the first 15 years or so of running a wildlife control business, you start to realize how many of the jobs you did "at first" were really not necessary.

Of course in cases where there is a KNOWN local rabies threat or some other safety concern, those issues should be considered.

As always, Ron is the voice of reason and wisdom. I get the same types: "Ohmigod! There's a fox living 500' from our house- he's gonna break into my house and kill me in my sleep!"

Nah, it's the frogs that'll get you in your sleep or at least that what worries the gal who called tonight. Got her set up for a look see.

Same as Ron. I have trapped a few in a million dollar house where the foxes were in the car port when they got out of the car and one other that charged the dog, but other than that when they say rabies, I say babies. They are nervous about seeing them in the daytime so they think disease, rabies. Just explain they are feeding a family. I tell them to get a lemonade, a camera, a comfortable chair and a camera.

You are all insane. Small children, small pets, pea hens, chickens, odor, maggots and rabies here in se PA (according to the PA Dept. of Health) are all reasons to get fox to move. What is so awful about that? It is no different than evicting a chimey or attic raccoon, or squirrel momma. After setting up this nice business and all the marketing effort and advert. work it took to get a decent number of calls, why in hades would I then tell them they don't have a problem? If a young mother with a toddler and a kitty thinks it is a problem, it is a problem which I spent my entire life learning how to make a living while solving. Unlike us, most people are somewhat fearful of wildlife up close. Are we not in the NUISANCE wildlife business? Oh and by the way, we like to leverage the job into a cleanup and barrier installation.

Speaking of insane, how do I explain the fact that I agree with Phil's post 100%. For those of you that don't know what a deck smells like with a family of fox living under it, think compost pile with a delicate hint of skunk.

My customers that are willing to put up with that smell, don't bother to call me. Of course, after the foxes leave and the skunks move in, then even those customers get on the phone.

I'm getting soft for sure and won't do a job just because I can. I need to feel like I am accomplishing in anything I do, trapping for a good reason. If a critter poses a danger, immanent threat, destroying etc. I'm there. Had a chuck call a while back. I asked, what's he doing? eating a garden or flowers? They said no, but "someone" told her it should be trapped. I simply told her I could come out any time and take her money, remove the chuck, but unless it was damaging something, why not let it ride? There was a local guy, did 3 hours of caulking with 2 guys for bats, where one bat was present, sold a ton of fear, worst case far reaching hypotheticals, charged $5,100, with a guarantee, of course. He spent a lot of time in court and is no longer in business, a "real surprise." But, I'm now trapping the chucks he released in the cemetery.

Jim, think about this example. A Doctor who takes advantage of hypochondriacs fears, sells pills to them, phony balony cures, etc. that is an ethical problem with that Dr., not the medical profession as a whole. Now does the ethical Doctor give the hypochondriac free treatment/consultation because there is nothing to be done?

I maintain it is ethical for me to handle that 'chuck call.' Because, what if she 'lets it ride' then something negative happens? It could be just a percieved negative, or a negative enhanced by 'someone who told her' or, something real. In any case she came to me for help because I am in the business to help with such things. I am all for turning something down that is absurd or pointless (e.g. - remove squirrel eggs from attic) but there is no reason not to take every call as a valid problem within your states law.

Oh Yeah, I'm doing it again! Phil is not the only one that feels this way. I got a woodchuck job today from a reality investment firm. One of their renters claimed she was chased by a woodchuck.

Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. It doesn't matter to the landlords. I met her today and she is freaked. If we can't help her, who can? I don't know about the chased part, but that place is woodchuck heaven. ( It shares a fence with a junkyard )

What has this got to do with foxes? Everything. I am apparently a bigger fan of the red fox than all of you that turn down those jobs. I haven't killed a fox for probably close to thirty years. And I don't want any of my customers doing it because I turned down the job, either.

Good discussion, guys. Ron & I both work in Illinois and Missouri. Both states have nuisance requirements: animal must be a true nuisance if it is to be trapped as a nuisance animal. This helps keep poachers from trapping out of season, and keeps our consciences clear (well, mine, anyway...can't speak for Ron...heh heh).
I would call a fox under my deck a nuisance, and have no qualms whatsoever about removing it, as with any other species. If a fox ran across a field 100 yards from my house, I call that a "wildlife sighting."

The local warden should have a handle on what is a 'true' nuisance. But his/her opinion is just that. The warden will not assume any liability if something bad happens. The 'fox in the field' after being dismissed as no problem, then picks off Mrs. Smiths fru-fru yap dog 'Tinkles.' Yes, the fox is certainly not to blame. But Mrs. Smith may lament 'Tinkles' demise from the roof tops. And if she is a woman of means, bring out the lawyers.

An animal trapped by a fur trapper is not to blame for anything either, except for having fur. Winkleman may have a soft spot in his heart for not doing anything lethal to fox, but he is in the minority when it comes to doing nuisance canine work. The setting may be way different, but there is a DVM whose name we all know, who does a lot of denning.

What I wonder is why I live in a place where there is a fox behind every corn stalk. We have lots of fox trappers, coyotes, mange, rabies and anything else you want to throw at them. Yet, year after year the fox manage to produce.

This is as much a mystery to me as the decline of our muskrats. I have to say, there was a place I could have trapped some muskrats this past winter. Instead of doing that I just kept driving past, looking for trapper foot prints in the snow to see if any one saw what I saw. Am happy to say all 3 huts are still there and active. They are within 150 ft. of a DD parking lot!

In NH it's the homeowner or occupant who decides what a "nuisance" is.

I know folks who lose a dozen or more fowl each year to fox and raccoons and are fine with it.

On the other hand, I have a customer with a little foo foo dog who actually loses sleep every time she sees a fox. 'Everyone knows' that fox kill and eat foo foo dogs and if they don't their 'wild fleas' do. She stays awake nights worrying about this. She is not comforted unless she sees dead bodies. Only then is her precious foo foo protected.

If it is an honest nuisance to the customer, it's gone.

From the Wildlife code of Missouri (i.e., the law):
"...species which beyond reasonable doubt is damaging property may be captured or killed by the owner of the property...or by his representantive..."
There ya have it.
That's all I have to say about that.

Phil, every since America's Songdogs arrived, the red fox population keeps getting less and less. I had a total of one mangy fox job last year and haven't had one yet this year.

Muskrats are another matter. After last years dry conditions I was sure there wouldn't be much muskrat work this year. I was wrong. We've probably got as many jobs this year as ever.

Illinois regs are even more restrictive than MO. The client does NOT have the final word. If I get a call from someone with raccoons or possums (etc) hanging around their door at night and crapping all over their sidewalk and deck, that may not be a "wildlife" problem. It is more likely a "human" problem. In almost every one of those cases, the person is leaving pet food out after dark (usually for cats). My regional wildlife biologist is a real stickler for laws..... he will first require the person/people to STOP leaving any food source out after sunset for TWO WEEKS. That will often eliminate the unwanted wildlife visitors. The problem is typically human-caused, not wildlife invasion.

DNR manages the nuisance wildlife program, and a major part of the program is solving problems in conjunction with wildlife conservation. The biologist does not see any reason to kill wild animals when the problem is usually 95% human behavior. Same deal with "seeing" a fox or any animal in the yard..... they are NOT considered a nuisance by DNR. And DNR is not held responsible for wildlife behavior in our state. That's why the zillion law suits filed for auto-deer collisions against the state are never even brought up.

I have no problem with anything other states do, or WCO's in other states as long as regs are being followed. Some will disagree with our biologists regarding habitat or behavior changes as a FIRST attempt, but it is what it is. We can't do squirrel reduction trapping or any other removal UNLESS it is causing physical damage to a structure or is a direct health/safety threat. That doesn't include what an animal "may" do at some point.

On the plus side, having a regional biologist who follows the rules can be beneficial. Those who worry about "not being able to make money" on every call due to our regs should consider; if this biologist finds out a town or city is providing traps to residents for wildlife removal and they don't have a nuisance wildlife permit, he quickly informs them they are breaking the law and shuts them off. Laws are laws..... whether they all make sense or not is not the issue.... following them IS.