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Any citizen scientists?

Posted By: Dean Chapel

Any citizen scientists? - 01/26/24 11:45 PM

A 500 year flood occurred on the Clarkfork river in MT 100 years ago, resulting in alot of mine tailings washing down the valley floor. The native trout, eastern brook trout and rainbow trout can't live in the water anymore, and trash fish and brown trout is all that remain. Montana has begun a remediation process to remove contaminated topsoil, which additionally resulted in a documented 99% kill of remaining fish.
Now, to my subject at hand- I've noticed that perhaps 10% of the muskrats I catch on the river have liver cancer. Neither MT fish and game nor the dept of environmental quality are interested in my findings on the topic. Subsequently, I've decided to do a study of my own, and know how to do it. However, what I do not have is a funding source for running toxicology/heavy metals testing on the livers as well as funds to have a pathologist examine livers for me. This would be for 100-200 livers. Anyone know of a resource that might help either do the testing for free or a grant source to pay for the testing? My time is free, but cannot fork over 10 grand to pay for this. Any ideas? Makes me wish I could talk to old Cohunt
Posted By: ou812

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/27/24 12:06 AM

The university doesn't have a master student to help? Seems like a study worth pursuing. I ran rock samples for a graduate student looking for arsenic levels. Surely someone there could point you in the right direction.
Posted By: waggler

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/27/24 12:42 AM

I'll bet you coukd find a student in Missoula, who would be intetested in a project like that.
Posted By: beaverpeeler

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/27/24 02:34 AM

X2 what waggler says.
Posted By: nimzy

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/27/24 04:37 AM

How did you arrive at your liver cancer diagnosis?
Posted By: 52Carl

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/27/24 05:42 AM

No one but trappers care about the welfare of muskrats. Trout fishermen is where the revenue comes from.
Even if you can get help to prove liver cancer is caused by the toxic tailings, it won't get any traction. They have bigger fish to fry (or catch and release).
Posted By: jbyrd63

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/27/24 05:44 AM

Don’t know about out there but the division of water here in Ky would be all over that. But old strip mines keep that part of it going. Same ones over see waste water treatment plants., Also look for an endangered species in the area that you can piggyback your study onto. You ever see series Joe Pickett ?
Heck they were about to drain have of the 3rd largest lake east of Mississippi because of snail darter habitat. I told one of these educated idiots that are part of the F and W they’re in ever stream that feeds the lake 2 years and 1.3 million later they agreed
Posted By: NaturesTonic

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/28/24 02:54 AM

How do you know they have liver cancer?

Can you share pics?

Have you talked with a local lab or what lab would you send samples to, and what is the cost of 1 test?
Posted By: SNIPERBBB

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/28/24 08:19 AM

As as for sources of funds... Years ago the OSTA kickstarted a research study for the ODOW. With our funding, the DoW was able to get matching funds through Pittman-Robinson.

Here's the link to the study report: http://www.ohiostatetrapper.org/muskratstudy.pdf
Posted By: Dean Chapel

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/28/24 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by waggler
I'll bet you coukd find a student in Missoula, who would be intetested in a project like that.


Yeah, I would have thought so as well. I called the Department chair of the wildlife biology department in charge of graduate students, and in so many words, I was told that they would not be interested in asking if any students had any interest in such a project. I know of no other way to get hold of a grad student except through the dept chair.
Posted By: Dean Chapel

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/28/24 11:48 PM

If you know what cancer looks like, it's an easy dx. Cannot with the naked eye determine exactly what type of liver cancer, but looks like hepatocellular carcinoma to me. Would need pathology to determine further.

I can send a photo to a cell number of anyone who can post it for me. PM your number and I'll send it to you.
Posted By: Dean Chapel

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/28/24 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by NaturesTonic
How do you know they have liver cancer?

Can you share pics?

Have you talked with a local lab or what lab would you send samples to, and what is the cost of 1 test?


the only pathology group I know locally is for human samples. I have not yet talked to them for prices, and if they'd consider doing this.
MT fish and game had a pathology contract, but as I said, MT FWP not interested at all so far.
I speak to the governor occasionally. Perhaps I'll see if he can move some people on this matter. He is a trapper too.
Posted By: snowy

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 12:33 AM

I hope you can find a path somehow to get something rolling going with that. It is very important that people get some answers from what you are observing. The right people or group would take it to the limits. I wish I could be more help but there has to be some group that would be able to get the ball rolling.
Posted By: Bob_Iowa

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 02:06 AM

Maybe you could try to talk to Gulo at least he is in the region and works with wildlife so he might be able to help.
Posted By: Alder

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 07:08 AM

My suggestion would be calling the State Veterinarian for MT FWP. They could run a sample or two, and likely find it in their budget.

Jennifer Ramsey might be the right contact out of the BZN office.

That being said, they are so plum full of CWD and M.ovi sampling - plus whatever else she's interested in, she may say no. But, it's worth a shot.
Posted By: Scout1

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 09:44 AM

Contact Trout Unlimited and remind them they have a stake in this as well. The squeaky wheel gets the grease!
Posted By: crosspatch

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 12:10 PM

Does not help your question but point of information brook trout are not native to Montana.
Posted By: Dean Chapel

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 03:28 PM

That's why I said " The native trout, eastern brook trout and rainbow trout ". The native trout were bull trout and cut throat trout.
Posted By: Leftlane

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 04:39 PM

Dean I think being right was worth a lot more back in the day. Nowadays you can probably leave this earth a martyr and nobody would even notice. Sad but true.
Posted By: bblwi

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 06:11 PM

Rats evidently have survived for 100 years post the flood. That would be several hundred generations. Could be a minority say that have not developed a resistance to something, or if there is that much cancer many are dead earlier. 10% is not a huge percentage, but rats being a short lived species means that it develops quickly if it is indeed cancer growth. For me it would be beneficial to include beaver or maybe other more aquatic mammals like otter and mink to see if they have symtems. Especially beaver if present as they spend a lot of time in the water and store large amounts of food in the water for months. What is the current population as compared to say 15 years ago, 30 years ago if you know that data? Brown trout are native to Europe and thus may have different immunities etc. compared to our native trout species.

Bryce
Posted By: white17

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 06:40 PM

I think Tatiana's advice is very good.

I would also approach the Montana Trapper's Association. If this were in Alaska our association gets involved in stuff like this.
I would also contact Matson's Lab in Manhattan, MT. They do tooth aging and other sorts of pathology for several F&G outfits from various states. They may have an idea about WHO might help you out with your project
Posted By: crosspatch

Re: Any citizen scientists? - 01/29/24 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by Dean Chapel
That's why I said " The native trout, eastern brook trout and rainbow trout ". The native trout were bull trout and cut throat trout.


Ok my mistake and missed the punctuation. Thought rainbow were native but guess not.
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