Agree or Not? Black Coyotes..

https://deerassociation.com/a-wolf-among-us-how-black-coyotes-came-to-be/

He sounds like he knows what he’s talking about. Personally I’ve never caught or seen a black yote always just thought they were color variations like turkeys. Very interesting read thanks for sharing this .

That may be true to a point. But in this country around here we have just as many blonde and red as black, so I would think domestic dog has as much to do with it as the red wolf.

Running pens. For years thousands and thousands of coyotes were hauled into the S.E. for running pens. Prior to this very very few if any wild coyotes there. Escapees bred with dogs. Not common but it happens. Those pups come into heat often at the wrong time of year. Breeding with coyotes not common. but it happens. Just more AR poor coyotes nonsense.

No black coyotes in the west. At least very rare. Coyotes are thick. Wolves kill coyotes. I think they cross breed even less than coyotes with dogs.

They sound smarter than me but every coyote has brown red and black in it in some amounts. Some have more of one. Some have less. I've had mostly all brown ones, mostly all red ones, and mostly all black ones. It just happens. Then... those ones stand out and have less of a chance to reproduce to promote those genes. That's what I've always thought. Maybe their point is that all that got started b/c of cross breeding back in the day? Maybe so I guess. But we get those colors around here today without that happening now obviously. Maybe I missed something. I didn't read it real close.

Those running pen coyotes came from WY NE KS OK TX primarily. Where black coyotes are extremely rare.

In the southeast breeding with dogs happens ALOT more than you think. Some of the pups you would claim are just stray dogs not coyotes even though the mom coyote was your typical run of the mill colored coyote.

there would be zero surprise that they are Coywolfs

but if we admit it out loud you run the risk of some judge putting an injunction on year round coyote seasons as someone might shoot a half or 1/4 wolf coyote

because you know it isn't going to go the other way and we pull wolf DNA and find 10% coyote and decalre all wolves now part of the coyote family.

so you just say yup Black coyotes not wolves and go on trapping them

in another decade or 3 it is possible wolf and coyote pets will be indistinguishable going to a buyer is it a XXL coyote or a wolf

I agree 100%. I hate it when people talk about coyote wolf hybrids. That is only going to get coyote hunting/trapping banned. Black coyotes are a color phase, just like black squirrels.

Inbreeding cab produce off color mutations without the influence of outside genes

If you really want to get technical, red wolf is kind of a misnomer as latest genetic testing says they’re a good bit over 50% coyote DNA.

We’ve been able to really map the genome for what, 30-40 years at best?

One could argue perhaps the “red wolf” has ALWAYS been 50+% coyote dna and we’ve only just recently been able to find that out.

Besides that, we’re supposed to believe a species (red wolf) that’s already over half coyote DNA and found in extremely small numbers and localized areas hybridized to the point of getting 10-20% or more (published claimed numbers) of its dna into a flourishing SE coyote population? What’s more, outcrossing back to pure coyotes is far more likely which would than dilute those numbers further as the generations progressed, so to maintain them we have to believe there is some continual and on going crossing with “red wolves”.

I’m calling shenanigans.



Just read the about the authors section at the bottom and you know what they’re angling at!

Caught 67 coyotes a few years ago here in deep South Ga.....8 of em were black.

Have been only trapping about 20 to 40 coyotes annually lately, but still catch 1 or 2 a year.

Both authors of the article list working for the Wolf Conservation Center. I would hold suspect anything they promote, their agenda isn't the same as ours. I've never seen a black coyote here but we sure have some red ones. In a different part of the country I'm sure they would be called "red wolves", to fit their agenda, pure hogwash.

Technically incorrect.

Inbreeding creates nothing. Instead the odds of an otherwise unexpressed recessive trait being expressed occurs since both parents share the same genes.

looks more like it's mixed with Hyena

I have caught many black coyotes in Arkansas and Pa over the years. The first was in Arkansas in the early 90's. The genes are more common now then in years past it seems.

I have shot a few that had a lot of black in them. Just color variations

Many on here have seen all the Black coyotes I have posted in the past. I have worked. Some of the largest tracts of land in Alabama. One year I caught over 30 black phase coyotes. So out of 300 plus a year around 10% black phase coyotes. I post. Pic on here once. In several miles of road. Took out whole family group. 6-7 black phase coyotes. It’s on here some where. My opinion is same as Jtrappers. It’s JUST FULL of dog DNA !!! Red Wolf = Like Boone says. Is ONLY a cross any way of Coyote. So basically IF your great great great grandmother was Indian are you Indian????

I'm with Boone on this one.

I also agree. Just another thing. Liberal will use to stop coyote hunting and trapping !! Will hollow = It’s a Wolf. And let’s not even get started on the Government = Restocking of RED WOLFS !!! Look at the mess they made in The Smokey Mts. Cades Cove

We had a presentation at our last OSTA convention, red wolf genetics were almost entirely coyote. Pretty much all coyotes east of the Mississippi have some domestic dog genetics and some wolf.

460 coyotes studied 5.7% black so 26.22 black coyotes (weird number but that's what the article says) of those black coyotes their average home range was bigger. That means if one black coyote had a larger home range the average is thrown off. That's just quick math and a wide angle view on the article. Needless to say I don't put much faith in a study of less than 500 total animals.

Exactly.

So at what point do we stop calling it a “red wolf” and just call it a coyote?

In their mind, never.

It's completely obvious their reasoning is agenda driven not science driven

I will add this to the conversation.
On the deer hunt with Maggy this past fall in Montana we saw a coyote as I’ve never seen. From the top of a ridge Maggy spotted the animal below us at maybe 350 yards cutting across and coming along the base of the ridge.
She asked what kind of animal it was, tho we had seen plenty of coyotes.
All I really saw was a black object moving, I thought maybe a fisher?
Thru the scope it was a very pale coyote but from the shoulders to the face it was black as could be. It stopped at one point and looked up at us and the face was normal, ears and neck all the way around were black, rear half and tail pale.

I wanted in the worst way to tickle the trigger but there were too many groups of deer we were seeing and her tag wasn’t filled. That was certainly a first in 50 plus years of chasing coyotes.

Osky

If black coyotes are the result of hybridization with melanistic red wolves, then why are there no black coyotes in the more northern area where there are melanistic gray wolves?

BTW, I've recently read that there really aren't any true red wolves remaining, they are all hybrids with coyotes to one degree or another.

I do not know if a black coyote has a bigger home range or not. But when I was selling to the running pens I had one old pen owner that would pay double for a black coyote. He said that the black run better than the normal coyote.

Just a guess but the "purer" the genetics between wolves and coyotes the stronger the repellent/antagonistic effect.

My best guess working opinion is the Red Wolf was a mostly wolf coyote hybrid skewing toward coyote as time went on. Probably a natural convergence of the two species interrupted by European colonization that disfavored wolves. Thus leading to the elimination of the wolf types leaving the coyotes that look like wolves.

Which raises the idea that if "speciation" is in a state of change over time, according to the evolutionists, then what exactly is being "preserved" in the Red Wolf. Could it have been there was change interrupted or even what is to say that human change is somehow not the natural order.

Well great job, as you just did just that !!!

Open mouth, insert foot !!!

w

Very few black coyotes in my area of N. Illinois. We do have the color phases yellow, reds, and mixes but pure black...no.
Have had some experience with so called coy-dogs and can say that they breed at all times of the year. While predator calling one winter shot what I thought was a large coyote...turned out to be a large female kujo looking female coy-dog...had yellow coyote eyes. She was showing that she was feeding pups. Weird. Trapped some big coyotes in Indiana biggest 42 pounds...tore my stock trap up.
My guess with these low fur prices and little interest in trapping....we will see more of these odd colors show up as the population goes unmanaged.

In areas where wolves and coyotes have always occurred in the same habitat, there is no need or reason for them to crossbreed. They each have plenty of their own kind to breed with.
Crossbreeding between wolves and coyotes is only going to occur when a far-ranging wolf ventures too far away from its own kind and settles for whatever will hold still when the heat comes in, such as a coyote or dog.
The same can be said for coyotes ranging too far away from their kind and encounter a dog in heat. Dogs do what dogs do.
As far as what color the pups are going to be for several generations after that initial crossbreeding, normal colored wolves likely carry the black phase gene, so it doesn't necessarily take a long-ranging black wolf to make black phase pups when it crossed with a coyote.

Why hasn’t hybridization occurred in the west?

We have all kinds of lone, transient wolves traveling out in predominantly coyote country.

Of course, we know what happens to a lone, transient coyote that wanders into wolf country.

I know what happens when a pair pf wolves wanders into my snared coyores

We've had a black coyote population around here in one locality I know of for at least 30 years. I saw my first one in 1993.
This dog weighed 49 pounds; I weighed him. Most of our yipyap white bellied coyotes never even get close to that weight. Pretty sob!

Color/ size , they are all coyotes.

Steel traps alot of the 'stray' dogs your catching are actually coyotes! Those don't have the yellow coyotes eye's or ANY feature about them to suggest they have one ounce of coyote in them. Urban trapping is how I found that out.

As for red wolves, the zoo in Birmingham had an exhibit of those and I drove there just to see them as id never seen one in person before. Way before i got to their enclosure i smelled coyote urine! Upon arrival at said red wolf enclosure i saw coyotes! Pacing back and forth trying to figure a way out of the place, after escaping the second time and never being found again they no longer had a 'red wolf' exhibit.

So what do those guys base the black squirrel on? Interbreeding with a chihuahua?

^^^HA. Now that is funny! Better be careful cause these splitters in the biological world within academia and government will be making the black fox squirrel its own species if this keeps up.

I do have to say, that I am curious about the dog/coyote=coydog explanation. Its certainly achievable, but the breeding strategy of domestic dogs and coyotes is way different and very off on timing. Around here, my (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) dogs come in twice a year; once in the late summer and once in middle/late spring. The coyotes here, are pairing up in late December/January and breeding like heck in February. Lots of pups born here in mid April.

I may be wrong, but I thought that dog coyotes can only breed (they are virile) during the breeding season; much like a buck deer. I don't know if that's the case or not, but if it is, then it would be pretty hard for a dog coyote to breed a (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) domestic dog around here.

So if they are breeding, then it is more than likely a male domestic dog is breeding a female (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) coyote. Which makes sense to me; as I've shot several yearling coyote jips in my yard in February, although I don't have any male dogs in the yard. The young jips just do crazy things during that time of year and seem to go to areas where there are dogs; at least here.

On another note, that article said that the first person to describe the "Red Wolf" was in Florida and called it Canis niger (black). But, in the same sentence, they said that it was in the late 1700s! I don't know if I read that wrong, but there wasn't supposed to be any coyotes east of the MS river then.

Also, I walked or rode a 4 wheeler from Yuma Arizona, to El Paso. I have also spent years along the border in Texas. There are white trash trailer parks all along the border with (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) dogs roaming free and their offspring everywhere. No one takes care of them, they just fend for themselves. There are plenty of coyotes in that area too; but I've never even heard of a black coyote being killed in those parts even though there is plenty of opportunity for them to interbreed.

That "black coyote" Chancey posted looks like a dog. Makes me wonder if you DNAed it, how much coyote genes it has. I knew a guy who had a coydog when I was a kid. Had a female cow dog that got bred by a coyote and raised a whole litter. Usually I suspect the breeding of coydogs goes the other direction, especially for those in the wild population. I have also heard that male coyotes are only virile for a few months of the year, not sure how true that is for eastern coyotes that have dog DNA in them. On the other hand domestic dogs come into heat at all times of the year. Most commonly twice a year although that can vary. I've owned hounds my whole life and have never noticed that there is a particular time of year (other than opening week of hunting season) that is more common for them to come into heat. Male domestic dogs are virile year round and would always be capable of breeding any coyote in heat they came across.

I've never seen a black coyote out west, color phases are very uncommon, I did catch a yellow one once, though.

I think it is far more likely that melanistic tendencies in coyotes are from interbreeding with domestic dogs than with wolves.

I'm convinced that Eastern coyotes have interbred with wolves in Eastern Canada on their way to the East Coast of L-48 states over time, but I don't think that black color is very likely to come from wolves. Eastern Canadian wolves from what I've seen are seldom black. Unlike Northern Canada and Alaska where a large percentage of our wolf populations are black.

Would the author of the article claim that "blonde" coyotes are the result of hybridization with wolves? Blonde wolves are almost unheard of.

Pete

What I find suspicious is they are supposedly crossbreeding with a supposed "species" of which they have a)no purebred samples to study, b)no melanistic crossbreed samples and c)are so exceedingly rare that there is considerable argument on whether there was ever any such species in the first place. And this is where we are getting 5-7% black coyotes from?

https://nywolf.org/about-the-wcc/about-us/
I would say the researchers may be a little bias in their research. I just see black coyotes as a color phase and if caused by interbreeding, the domesticated dog is the culprit.

Melanistic red wolf shown in a foot-hold trap in Winn Parish, Louisiana, 1948. Photo courtesy of T.E. “Doc” Harris family.

Some interesting information about coyotes, red wolf and Florida black wolf concerning Louisiana.

Louisiana had two distinct species of wolf before WW I. There was the Red Wolf and in the Florida Parishes, the Florida Black Wolf.

Before the big timber was cut in east Texas, the coyote was extremely rare in that part of Texas, but it was full of red wolf. Between the big timber being cut and bounties being put on the head of the red wolf, they were cleaned out. The coyotes moved in. This is historical fact.

The coyote was unheard of in Louisiana until the big timber in central and north Louisiana was cut. The more preferred red wolf habitat cleared and bounties on the heads of the red wolf caused its decline. The large coyote population of Texas moved in. The state actually had red wolf trappers well into the 1940's. These trappers noticed that over time what was considered the traditional red wolf was disappearing and coyotes became abundant. They also noticed that the crossbreeds were becoming common place. The trappers actually reported this to the state saying that the red wolf was quickly disappearing and something had to be done. Some of the trappers, risking their jobs, actually took it on their own to release actual red wolves they trapped into the remote regions of central and north Louisiana.

Just a couple of years ago a "coydog" was captured on a Gulf Coast island and its DNA make up was more red wolf than coyote. A retired game warden friend of mine who is a expert on every animal in Louisiana stated that one one particular island there were "coydogs" which were bigger than coyotes and some were black. He also told me about a study and they found that the black coyotes in Louisiana were found more in the thickets and heavy cover, and their natural survival rate was higher than a normal colored coyote.

My personal thoughts...The genes of the real red wolf and Florida black wolf still float around in the coyotes of Louisiana. Due to the genetic roll of the dice it sometimes shows up and with the data from research, its going to show up more due to the survival rate of the melanistic canine.

Thanks for posting that Gunny...good info.

Dan Flores has a book called American Coyote. He goes into the details of red wolves and dogs breeding with coyotes. He also touches on the "no hybrids in the west" story. We don't have reds, only greys and grey wolves and coyotes don't get a long. DNA evidence shows the red wolf hybrid and many captive studies show the success. In fact they dont think there are any pure breed redwolves left and there may not have been pure breed red wolves for thousands of years. They all have coyote DNA. For the grey wolf/coyote, its completely different. They couldnt put a coyote and grey wolf in the same pen with out the wolf killing the coyote. When ever they did artificial insemination of a grey wolves and coyotes (male wolf to female coyote and male coyote to female wolf), the female would kill the pups shortly after they were born. Coyotes and grey wolves have a natural intolerance for each other. Something that goes back in their genetic makeup.

I still say if it smells like a coyote, looks like a coyote, walks like a coyote, acts like a coyote, well you figure the rest out! They were red wolves in the south and brush wolves in the north back in the day.

I think Larry Kline, where is he anyway, spoke over 20 years ago at groups trying to list black coyotes as their own subspecies. Since they are 'rare' of course you would have to put protections in place to ensure their survival, critical habitat protections and all the rest. Don't even have to turn your wolfer nation hat around backwards to figure out what all of this crap is really about.

You are correct J.

If those "researchers" discover a certified and legally accepted red wolf in the wild....lookout! Lawsuits in every southern state will follow to stop coyote trapping. It will be a turd show. Thank goodness for mixed DNA and the nature of those lowly coyotes.

Color phase.

I've never seen a black yote in South Dakota. Ours are almost always the usual tawny color, with a few red and pale tints thrown in. I've also never seen a "German Shepard" phase that I've seen in photos on here from the East and down South. I don't know what those things are but we don't have them. And I think Chancey mentioned the Rio Grande valley trailer park canines. We have the same thing going on on the reservations and even though I don't get out around those areas much anymore, I've never heard of West River or Missouri Valley hunters or trappers nailing coydogs out there all that much-- other South Dakota guys can chime in on that if they have.

The Great Plains Zoo in Sioux Falls has had a red wolf exhibit for several decades at least. I haven't been to the zoo for a while but the last ones I've seen there, if placed against a South Dakota coyote, most people (and sorry I didn't smell their urine, maybe next time) would say they are different critters, both wild canines, but different. The supposed Canis rufus was a larger animal and heavier framed. The Great Plains Zoo "red wolves" have sent pups to a number of different zoos so they are well known among people trying to keep the species around.

As for published journal papers (and the link was not such a article but talked about a peer-reviewed article), I know that there are some tman people involved in peer-reviewed literature, both as authors and reviewers (a person tends to get more review offers the more they publish.) Peer-review is like any other human construct, it has its good points as well as its bad points. As an author, when you submit a manuscript, its really sort of a crap shoot because you typically have no idea who will review your paper. An author typically tries to "reconcile" the reviewers' comments with revisions. However, authors can also push back and make arguments on why the comment/suggest(s) are incorrect and make their case on why they won't "reconcile" that particular comment or suggestion. It is then up to the editor handling that manuscript on what to accept. As a reviewer, I seldom have rejected manuscripts out of hand, unless they are truly awful, but I also have rarely, if ever, accepted one "as is." I believe if people have done the work and make their case, they should get published, although I don't think I've ever reviewed a manuscript that some public policy should be framed around. There are those out there that do "advocacy science" and many more of the more prestigious journals out there that have "gatekeepers" who help decide what manuscript goes out for review and what ones don't. The journals/publishing companies don't typically call them "gatekeepers" but in around about way brag about it by saying" we only publish 10% (or less) of the manuscripts submitted to us!!" A self-fulfilling feed back loop is then generated by researchers who want to be heroes by saying they got published in Science or Nature because so few papers submitted there are published. There are also way more journals out there now than say 30 years ago because the Rest of World has decided to break open the European-dominated peer-review publishing cartel located mostly in the Netherlands and the UK. More journals can be both a good and bad thing, like anything else. In the end, the publishing companies in the peer-review literature make money in one form or another, they are businesses after all. That doesn't mean all such journal articles are crap but it also doesn't mean that all journal articles are as pure as fresh fallen snow. Science is a human construct and there's not a 100% pure form of human activity out there. So it goes.

I understand 100% completely why we need to be guarded on this subject. As Jtrapper, Swampwolf, and many others have posted, one idiot liberal judge could ban coyote hunting/trapping across the south if there is word of wolf DNA around here. I understand this stance and have been there a long time, but not looking at all the facts and ignoring the slap in your face stuff only makes us look like idiots; and it dang sure don't help our fight in regards to our role as conservationists.

This is what I know. I was born in the late 70s and grew up in the 80s and 90s. Back in the 80's I was blessed to be around and taught from old timers that were in there 80s. They were a different bunch of folk and it is our generation that was the last to know them. All the old farmers that taught me how to trap coyotes back then were adamant that coyotes did not arrive in this area until the 1960s. They said before then, there were only a few wolves, cats, and foxes. They would talk about trapping and hunting wolves and were convinced they were not coyotes. All those folks are dead and gone now, but I sure wish I could pick their brain. I believe the old timers, and I think Trapper gunny's post is spot on. The only population of black coyotes I know of around here is associated with the largest uncleared block of bottomland hardwood forest we have in this area.

My great uncle is in his late 80's. He was born in a log cabin in an area of Louisiana where it took till the late 1940's and early 1950's to get electricty. He remembers ivory billed woodpeckers and can make the call of one that sounds exactly like the old recordings. He remembers "panthers", Florida panthers, actually trapping them. His grandmother told him about the "tigre américain" or jaguars that woud be killed occassionally when the family was logging cypress. The man is a walking knowledge bank on the "old days". He was the one that taught me when I was younger how to hunt ant trap. Last week on my weekly visit he said he saw a coyote. This is the first coyote he has ever seen around his place. He told me he was surpised at how small it was when compared to the "wolves" that were around when he was growing up. I started hitting him up with questions. He said he never saw a coyote growing up, and the first time he ever saw one was taking a trip to Texas and it was dead on the side of the road. His father, my great grandfather, used to sit and tell stories about logging the Manchac basin, and I used to sit in wonderment listening to him. He would tell stories of wolves sneaking around their logging camps, killing livestock and how he used to kill them for the bounty. The state trappers knew the difference and it is well documented when they started seeing coyotes, and it all relates to when the red wolf populations declined.