Catholics not allowed to be a Freemason

The Pope issued a statement stating it is a grave sin to be a Freemason or to associate with this group and you will not be allowed to receive communion. I guess that means if you are Catholic and if you are a member or associate with a member you are going to the fires below when you die. Something about the Church disagreeing with the Freemason’s deistic, non-Christian teaching in divinity. I don’t know too much about this organization but I thought they did a lot of good.

Deists=heretics.

I did read somewhere the Freemasons are deists, like Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were said to be.

Jim

Don't believe all that you read.

Deists believe in a Creator that got the universe going, then stands back and watches things unfold by chance or free will of his creations.

Deists consider the Bible a book of fairy tales.

I'm not surprised at all the Pope chose to excommunicate them. Why are they church members to begin with?

Jim

Like I said, don't believe all that you read.

So our founding fathers were diests?

X2

Catholics are Knights of Columbus.
Freemasons are the proddys.
Good on the Pope.

Some of them were believed to be, if I remember right.

James obviously knows nothing of freemasonry and freemasons. I doubt he's ever heard of the Order of the Eastern Star, either.

Popes ok with associating with pedophiles though. LOL

Bhugo:

Some of them yes.

In those days most people thought the king was appointed by God. To be an Englishman and rebel against the king was unthinkable.

But if you believe only in a Creator deity, who doesn't bother appointing kings, that rebellion becomes thinkable. You would only be rebelling against a cruel and arbitrary king, not against God's will.

Jim

I admit I was going on reading I've done on the Founding Fathers, and things may have changed in Freemasonry.

Why don't you enlighten us?

Jim

The pope has washed the feet of Muslims and Jews in the Vatican. Not letting other Catholics associate with Free Masons seems hypocritical.

Maybe he just did the foot washing for show, with no true desire to get along with other religions.

Keith

James, you really do have a shaky but ideological grasp of history don't you?

No englishman believed in the Divine Right of Kings since parliament chopped off King Charlie's noggin in 1649 and knew full well that Georgie was a creation of parliament.

Type in the search term "Glorious Revolution".

Who in there right mind listen to the pope on anything.

Going out on a limb here.....Catholics?

If you knew then you would know.

Masons DO NOT believe the Bible is a book of fairy tails.

Gotcha. Interesting that so many people think we were founded by really religious people…..

And popes shouldn't be communists, yet here we are...

Finally
Something to lose sleep over

A religion ruled by a dictator, who interprets at his will. Acceptance of LGBTQ, church is open to transgender. Allow pro-abortion members to commune. Accept adulterers. Not in my belief system. I'll take Free Masons.

Thank you Bear Tracker,well said. Not this Pope, but I well remember back in WW II the Pope cozying up with the Nazis.

Excuse me? I've run into posters right here who believe in the Divine Right of Kings. Why, it says so right in the Bible!

"Trump is appointed by God," my father said to me.

Since then, he's figured out what Trump is. Some are a mite slower than others, but get there eventually.

Others never get there at all.

Jim

Not allowed? The pope has no power over free men other than what power those free men yield to him. If a free man wants to be a freemason, he is free to do so.

It's no accident the Declaration speaks of a "Creator," and that neither "God" nor "Creator" appear in the Constitution.

Jim

This is a funny post. First a couple say don't believe what you read . Then say here read this?

And shaky grasp of current events to boot. And an even less understanding of scripture or misunderstanding or recollection of what others may or may not have said.

You're really trolling tonight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Bible

Really

I agree

Warrior, what do you think is the source of the Divine Right of Kings?

What is your understanding of Romans 13:1-2?

"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

Jim

James on a roll tonight

Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Goodnight, James

I am a practicing Catholic and proud of it . Pope Francis is definitely the most left leaning Pope in my life time ,however he is not breaking any new ground here ,this is old news ! I think this issue is has to do with some oath as to who our allegiance is to ,.I am a Catholic Christian and my sole allegiance is to Catholic Christian doctrine which is based on the Scriptures .Love your neighbor as your self ! God Bless America

All ya all are evil.

Biblically speaking, you're correct. And no excemptions, not even you.

.

I’m not.

TLTR,,,,,,,,

ous all maybe be the ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,debl?"

Catholic Church leadership has recently gone bat guano crazy! Even Catholics can't wrap their minds around what is going on in the Vatican; at least the ones around here anyway.

I'm a protestant. Most of the very good and honorable men I knew growing up were Masons or Woodsmen of the World. Salt of the earth type folk that I 100% respect. Very good moral people.

So good, I thought I wanted to be a Mason at one time, but never went through with it. Something just did not feel right in my faith to Jesus. I especially did not like being required to take an oath. I know there are good people in the Masons. The high ups in that organization, I am not so sure about though.

You speak gibberish so it might be likely.

Looks like someone has been in the sauce, lol.

Jim

Now where did Warrior run off to? He kept saying I was wrong about this and wrong about that, and he never did say what was right.

Then he avoids my questions about Romans 13:1-2 and takes off.

I guess I'm not inclined to give credence to his claims.

Jim

James,

You write as though you yourself have an understanding of Romans 13:1-2. I personally do not. Let’s hear your interpretation.

But redeemed Not by practicing....any Religion of man; but by the blood of a risen Savior. Not by works- but by faith...

I’m bracing myself for your dissertation that gets this axed.

BvrRetriever:

Romans 13:1-2 seem pretty clear to me. Don't require any complex interpretation.

1. Submit yourself to the governing authorities.

2. There is no authority except that which God has established.

3. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

4. He who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted.

5. Those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.

In other words, if you don't respect and obey the authorities, you will face God's judgment.

So submit yourselves to Biden, people!

Jim

BvrRetriever:

Charge a few bucks apiece, and you could make a living as a fortune teller.

But I haven't made any axable posts.

Jim

Not so fast there counselor.

Point out the word obey, please.

The operative word is rebel.

And you forget the cross reference, Give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's, Give unto God that which is God's.

And if the two are in conflict then God takes precedence.

So let me put it another way, should legislation be passed requiring all citizens to report their gun owning neighbor's what would you do?

Refusal or rebellion?

That’s all I’m looking for is a living…but you sir, need gone. Have you ever trapped in your life? Or are you here to cause a stir?

I don't need a pope to inform me that a particular belief system is wrong. But any religion like Free Masonry or that big one in Salt Lake, who keep secrets about what they believe, and won't reveal their beliefs until you are deep into it, are obviously antithetical to truth and light.

Apparently the RC Church gave the Free Masons the thumbs down way back in the 1700's. So nothing new in that regard.
Some might find this interesting.
https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/the-faqs-is-freemasonry-compatible-with-christianity/

Seems to me folks pull a verse or two as stand alone to support whatever they may.

We forget,

Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego
Daniel
Esther
Jochebed and the Hebrew midwives (hint, they lied)

And the ultimate example of the Son of God Himself.

And ten of the twelve would follow Him to their own martyrdom.

Seems the Bible is full of heroes who refused to obey.

Truth Warrior

^^^^^
However, there's a huge difference between refusing to obey God, and refusing to obey man,

True

Doesn't "submit yourself" encompass "obey"? If not, how are the words different?

I concur that if the authority of a human leader is contrary to God's, God shall prevail. I don't have the Gospel verse at hand, but Jesus said the most important commandment is to love God.

I can't see any relevance of the "give unto Caesar" verses or guns to this discussion. You're trying to change the subject because you're afraid you've painted yourself into a corner.

Jim

That's a mighty unfriendly attitude to someone who answered your question and applied a little humor. What did I say to offend you so deeply?

You might try giving Paul an ultimatum, as someone else did a while back. Tell him you'll leave unless he boots me. Go ahead. Make a fool of yourself.

I didn't say that because I'm sure of my position here, but because I know how much Paul likes ultimatums.

Jim

Incidentally, I did trap from my freshman year of high school to my start in law school, 1970-78. Helped pay undergraduate tuition by trapping. In law school I worked part-time to help pay tuition, and had no time for a trapline. In law practice, I also didn't have time. As you know, trapping requires a lot more commitment than a hunting or fishing trip.

After I became the boss of my own schedule, I trapped in Alaska from 2000-2013, when health issues put an end to my trapping days. I came to this forum in January 2001 to learn more about trapping. And I have.

I hope my trapping credentials are acceptable to you.

Jim

Difference submit yourself, Christ submitted to a false arrest accusation and crucifixion He did not confirm Pilate's statement, are you the king of the jews.

Daniel submitted himself to the lion's den he did not pray to Darius.

As did the three children.

Esther submitted herself to the law that she would be killed for approaching Xerxes but did it anyway. BTW all this brought on by her uncle Mordecai refusing to bow to the king.

Jochebed and the midwives submitted themselves to slavery for another 80 years and apparently did not kill off the generation of Joshua as there was a younger male generation during the exodus.

Yes, all of those people obeyed the authorities.

Jim

Twist 'n turn

I was told that the Masons would allow a Catholic to join but the church said that Catholics could not belong to a secret society.
The Catholics have their own Group called the Knights of Columbus . why this is allowed I do not know.

Found this on a Maryland Lodge website.

Masonic Creed
I, as a FREEMASON, believe in the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man. I will do unto others as I would have them do unto me.
I pledge my loyalty to the Government of the United States of America, a Government of the people, by the people, and for the people, and will not countenance disloyalty on the part of others.

Freemasonry is founded upon these principles and I will use my utmost effort to preserve them for posterity.

Doesn’t seem like a bad secret to me.

Very telling, thank you for providing the info.

pretty simple to me. pay your taxes.



pretty simple also. comply with government authorities and edicts.

FWIW the whole oath of secrecy is why I never became a freemason.

God is the ultimate authority. If a person rebels against an earthly authority whose edicts are against the ultimate authority of God, it would be proper to rebel/not comply with said earthly authority. Don't bow to Baal!
I think Paul in Romans was trying to make the point of not being a rabble rouser.

In Article VII, the Constitution states:

Done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independence of the United States of America the twelfth….


I dont wish to argue or belabor your point, but as a measure of ensuring facts aren't overlooked, this is a reference to Christ in the US Constitution. One may argue it was placed out of tradition, or even that the original drafts did not contain it, but to state that the Creator or God is not mentioned is not correct (unless one denies Christ the Son as part of the trinitatarian nature of God as well as New Testament statements of Christ and His role in creation, if so, then it may be a moot point for those folks).

Regardless, the officially recognized final draft does directly refer to our Lord, Jesus Christ.

I believe that that the religious views of men who created our country were as diverse as the people governing it today.

I enjoy your posts and presence here. Thank you for being here.

Agreed. Including those that had no religion at all.

Found this on a Maryland Lodge website.

Masonic Creed
I, as a FREEMASON, believe in the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man. I will do unto others as I would have them do unto me.
I pledge my loyalty to the Government of the United States of America, a Government of the people, by the people, and for the people, and will not countenance disloyalty on the part of others.

Freemasonry is founded upon these principles and I will use my utmost effort to preserve them for posterity.

Doesn’t seem like a bad secret to me.
[/quote]
True

Found this on a Maryland Lodge website.( Hobbie ^^^^^


Masonic Creed
I, as a FREEMASON, believe in the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man. I will do unto others as I would have them do unto me.
I pledge my loyalty to the Government of the United States of America, a Government of the people, by the people, and for the people, and will not countenance disloyalty on the part of others.

Freemasonry is founded upon these principles and I will use my utmost effort to preserve them for posterity.

Doesn’t seem like a bad secret to me.
[/quote]
True Hobbie ^^^^^^

Freemasonry was also outlawed in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. Interesting company the Catholic Church keeps.

The simple truth is throughout history Freemasonry has come under restriction by governments that are authoritarian over the issue of secrecy and brotherhood.

For the record I am not a member of a lodge but I am the son and grandson of freemasons as far back as I can trace. My father went inactive over a dispute within his lodge over allowing a known drunk and wife beater be allowed to join. He was in opposition. Likewise I have seen disreputable men accepted in local lodges, including dad's brother who will die alone and unacknowledged.

I have not read all the post that has been made but as being a FREE MASON for over 55 years I do know I love God the maker of ALL things My Family and my Country and I have several Catholic friends.

His lack of attendance permitted that individual in.

The supreme authority in our constitutional republic is the constitution, not Joe Biden. If you are a law abiding citizen, submitted to the supreme law of the land, you will disobey the unconstitutional decrees of government bureaucrats.

Wow

Well, as a brother of over 40 years I would challenge you to list anything that the organization does that's Bad? On the other hand you can see all the Good that we do from local charitable works all the way up to the Shriners Burn Hospital. No scandals law suits or anything like that, can the Pope say the same of his organization? We are not a religion or all the other nonsense that is always spewed, just because we don't share our rituals and stuff we are presumed to be Bad.....I say Prove it...Just my 2 cents

1st D charge reminder…”neither are you to suffer your zeal for the institution to lead you into argument with those who, through ignorance, may ridicule it.”

Did he just get slapped down? with a 1st D charge - whatever that is

Anything secretive has no point in honoring the one true God - Jesus.

This only matters if you are a Catholic and a Mason. If you are a Catholic, like me, but not a Mason who cares? If you are a Mason but not a Catholic who cares?

If you are Catholic and a Mason, decide which, if any, decorative hat is going to dictate your life.

As far as the Pope goes, I appreciate his suggestions and believe he has good intentions but I decide how I live my life.

Not everything has to be so dramatic.

not leading into an argument, just curious as to what people believe to be their Truths....

No “smack down” as you refer to it, just a reminder of what he was informed many moons ago.

What can be kept secret from God?

The Catholic church has always disallowed catholics being free Masons...nothing new.

Doesn't mean some, or a lot of catholics haven't become Masons, . Agree or not , it is what it is...

The pope does not obey God rules, he listen to man.

Not true. It matters to me to see that groups of secretive guys and religious groups like to dictate rules to people to follow without God guidance. I have met very few Catholics that I believed truly had been born again and were living for Jesus as He called us to live. Lots of Catholics like Biden out there that dont even follow what God says.

That's how it went down. Two votes against then a mandatory business trip and he returned to find another vote taken in his absence. He was the holdout.

Cooncuff, I owe you an apology. Treedablackdog’s reaction excited my curiosity. Upon reflection, my counsel should have been whispered upon the ear and not in an open forum.

Please accept my public apology.

I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal saviour. I believe in a triune God. God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. I believe in the virgin birth and miraculous conception. I beleive I was a sinner and needed to be forgiven of my sins and Jesus paid the price for my sins. I confessed my sins and received forgiveness for my sins and the promise of eternal life with Christ. I believe as a forgiven Christian I am to pursue sanctification and allow Christ and the Holy Spirit to lead me daily. I have no need for any secretive group or any appointed man that is held up or deemed Holy. All men sin, including the pope. He is no different than me or you. He is a man that has been appointed by men. I have no need for 3 degrees of anything - no mans plan to lead me to some created spiritual enlightenment. Both groups have had sexual sin problems with many of their leading men with young boys. God gave man a woman because He saw man needed something. Both groups have compromised their beliefs over time due to society and the acceptance of sins today that were frowned upon 50 years ago.
I believe I am no better than anyone, even the most vile sinner, as I myself was a sinner that deserved eternal separation from Christ. But, I received forgiveness for my sins - past, present, and future and I have faith in Jesus Christ that I am redeemed by the blood of the Lamb - the perfect sacrifice which I could not pay. I have freedom knowing I am forgiven and an eternal hope that can not be described to those still in the bondages of sin. I believe you all can receive the same.

Sounds wonky. Did the wife beater repetition after the vote?

Very Well written ^^^ Same here

Can't say on laying on of hands but he never sobered up and would die drunk behind the wheel. I know all the folks involved right down to Dad's step sister, also a drunk, getting knocked up on the couch of that fellow by his oldest son. Dad knew the situation well having grown up directly across the street from it.

Tell us all about the secrets of the freemasons, so we can decide.

Careful now there.

True story, my granny who was actually my great aunt who raised my dad and his brothers after the death of my grandmother was Eastern Star. The year she was installed as Worthy Matron her second husband, she was a remarried widow, packed his stuff and moved out for a week for refusing to divulge. He was in his eighties!

She let him go until he came crawling back when his kids wouldn't take him in, lol.

Read 1 & 2 Kings in the Bible.

You been consulting Baal-Zebub?

There is a lot going on in those 2 books, and that’s what you came away with. lol

You receive what you are worthy of.

Or wisdom and a discerning mind as Solomon was granted by God

I go back to your charge - I have no zeal for an institution - only a zeal for Christ. You quoted it with your admonishment of hidden rules for those that might ridicule it.

Is your hearts desire for Christ and to make Him known - or for Freemasons and the secrets they protect? What does a high degreed mason think of Lucifer?

What someone else thinks of lucifer has no bearing on my heart.

Your reading comprehension needs some work. We are done.

Are there any secrets regarding the freemasons and lucifer? How are we to determine if it's an organization that Christians of any stripe should participate in unless we know?

Maybe it's a Nancy Pelosi Obamacare kinda thing-you gotta join the organization to know what's in it.

Not that I have witnessed, read or spoken.

As a trapper can I see the books of the NTA or FTA?

Totally wrong! I am worthy of death and to live in sin and shame apart from Christ. See, I live under grace now thank God. I am not worthy - Jesus is! I have been redeemed! I was dead and now am alive in Christ Jesus. I will receive so much better than what I am worthy of - thank You Jesus. I do not have to achieve some level or degree to be enlightened! I freely receive because Jesus paid my price. No secret, no shame, nothing hidden. Free and available to all who seek. He stands there waiting patiently.

I would like to know what the Freemasons rituals are. However, since they are secret I guess most us we will never know. Of course, the Catholic Church is all about rituals but not secret at least most of the ones we know of. However, Electing a new Pope is a ritual behind close doors.

Simply Google some quotes and references of High Degreed Freemasons in what they believe about Lucifer. Names, books, and pages are all available.
As for me and my house - we will serve the Lord. I have no need for anything any masonic lodge could offer.
Matthew 7:22-24 and Matthew 24:5-31

Yah right. Bidens a catholic,

TreedaBlackDog, what are your thoughts on other men's organizations?

What do you think about Odd Fellows? They've got secret stuff.
American Legion?
Lions Club?
Boy Scouts?

Does your church CEO make it's 501C3 line item deductions on his income tax open to the pew sitter in the congregation and general public or are they kept secret?

You can easily buy the books and other publications of the Masons at estate auctions and used book stores. You can buy the rings, pins and other accoutrements too.

It's not that secret.

Keith

Smoke a pope.

Shouldn't you guys be beating up on Muslims not Catholics?

Naw Dirt. Anyone's fair game on T man. Like tag team wrestling.

Gets dicey when you/I/we pick apart a religion that members here practice. I don't mind a bit if someone challenges my faith but I'm typically reluctant to point out what I consider to be a cult. Is there a practicing Muslim here? I don't know of any.

Hobbietrapper, no apology needed,accepted non the less, I get curious sometimes as to what people think they know or how self righteous and Jaded they have become. Thought about my post for awhile before my curiosity got the better of me...It's all good....Mark

Of the mens organizations you have listed - I have no need. Most mens organizations I have seen and observed are attended by drunks. I was not impressed with the leadership of the NTA in Iowa when I personally witnessed those leaders as well getting drunk and rowdy. Did not surprise me in the least when I heard about sexual harassment case being filed.

The church I attend has open business meetings and one could look at all costs and see where every penny is spent. I am not a member but attend 95% of the time unless I am at another ministry event I go to 5 times a year to pour into and build up other men. Several times I have personally heard even non-members can go to the business meetings. I see no need for anything secret or the need for serving alcohol. I have never seen anyone do better in life by drinking alcohol. Life is tough enough without drinking, smoking, drugs. I struggle enough with lust, anger, lack of self control and true love for others without judgement and materialistic desires.

No alcohol allowed in Masonic lodges. Eric

You might be missing out on some really cool super secret handshake.

Fine with me...I dont drink

I never saw any kind of alcohol in a Masonic Lodge. Cigarettes weren't allowed either. Or in a Scottish Rite Temple. My FIL was an OOF till the day he died and their lodge was very formal. No alcohol.
I know the Shriners drink during their activities but then I was never a Shriner. It's not what I wanted to do.

Well, I don't know. I've not been an active member for 40+ years. Still I not say anything bad about the Masons.

All you Mason haters out there;
If your kid or grandkid gets sick, say cancer or burns, etc. and you're hard up for cash to get your kid some medical attention, go to a Masonic Hall or a Shrine Unit. They might be able to get the kid into one of their hospitals.

I'm done with this thread.

The theology of Free Masonry is not Christian. Are there true Christians who are Free Masons? Yes.

The charitable work by the Masons is outstanding. Their theology is whacky at best.

There is a Free Mason guy who has been a member of our church for years, however, he is not allowed a position of leadership or teaching, and he's fine with that.

I have a friend who's 17 year old daughter is in the Shriners hospital in Tennessee undergoing cancer treatment, she's been there for several month, and will be there for at least a couple more. Her treatment seems to be going great. ALL expenses are paid in full, even the airfare of her parents or guardian flying back and forth from Seattle. One parent or adult guardian must be there at all times. And they live in an apartment paid for by the Shriners. I can't say enough good about Shriners hospital.

The Good thing is God Judges the Heart

I thought James had a legitimate question, quoting scripture from Rom 13

There are man's rules and God's rules.

Good answer

Mole,
This is a very good question.
The Knights of Columbus are a secret arginization.
It seems that most of our religious organizations have been infiltrated by The Society of Jesus.
The Jesuits.

First,let me say that Free Masonry is a brotherhood, not a religon. Much said on here has been said by non Masons that do not know what they are talking about.I am not about to reveal anything about the organization or the Shriners.. My father, both grandfathers, and a great grandfather were all Masons.I can tell you that the Masons are very involved in medical research and the Shriners operate Childrens Hospitals.2024 will mark my 60th year as a Mason and 25th year as a Shriner.

Very true Fisherman. Eric

My father was a member of the Knights of Columbus over 60 years, went to exactly one meeting but paid the dues...He said he had better things to do then hang out with guys cheating on their wife's....

I have no need to be a member of basically a mens club,

You dont want to dream up your own Supreme Architect as some masons have and choose to idolize Lucifer? I mean you can create your own Supreme Being and make up your own God. What possibly could be wrong with that?

Uninformed ignorance. Eric

What about the handshake?

Are their secret handshakes similar?

There's a fine line

George Washinton was a mason.

Yes

i have no problem with or supporting these organizations But as a Lutheran I'm not supposed to Or belong to The Eagles

All religions are man made. God made man without alliance to any religion.

Is that because the Eagles lean more to the support of a main deity and don't hold Jesus as that different from anyone else who does right?

Keith

And a deist.

Jim

Biden your hero is a deist also

Came directly off the Free Mason site from Ohio. Guess they are uninformed.

Guss:

Here is evidence that Washington was a Deist:

"Many of the founding fathers—Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and Monroe—practiced a faith called Deism. Deism is a philosophical belief in human reason as a reliable means of solving social and political problems."

https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-founding-fathers-religious-wisdom/#:~:text=Many%20of%20the%20founding%20fathers,solving%20social%20and%20political%20problems.

Where's your evidence that Biden is a Deist?

Jim

I thought deism meant that one believed in a supreme being.

If the ability to reason is part of the definition of deism, then Biden is certainly not a deist. He can't reason enough to know which way he is going.

Here's the remainder of the paragraph I quoted:

"Deists believe in a supreme being who created the universe to operate solely by natural laws—and after creation, is absent from the world. This belief in reason over dogma helped guide the founders toward a system of government that respected faiths like Christianity, while purposely isolating both from encroaching on one another so as not to dilute the overall purpose and objectives of either."

Jim

The definition James gives leaves out the Supreme Being. Surprise, surprise.

Never mind. There was a correction. Lol

I said several pages back that Deists believe in a supreme being. Didn't know it was necessary to repeat myself.

Jim

Jim,

As you noted, a deist believes in a Creator, but is then absent from the world. In other words, create the world, then hands off, no further action from the Creator. I'm no theologian, but that's my rural farm kid understanding.

If one reads Washington's writings, I fail to see him as a deist.

Case in point, though other manuscripts as well as personal testimonies of Washington's habits and life likely exist: https://www.mountvernon.org/educati...ticle/thanksgiving-proclamation-of-1789/

"Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us."


Does this sound like a man who does not believe in the intercession of God in the lives of humans? It certainly doesn't to me. Do I know for certain what his faith was exactly? No. I will say from what I've seen and read, he was a man who believed in and accepted many Christian principals, lived out many, was probably imperfect in all this living, and still had questions he did not know answers to but sought out.

And you may disagree with my conclusion. That's cool, I'm not here to prove wrong or right beyond shadows of doubt. But, there is ample evidence to conclude that the statement of Washington being a deist isn't necessarily a true, or at least complete, statement of fact.

Insanelupus:

You're right, Washington did refer to God, Providence, and the Grand Architect of the Universe in public and private letters and speeches.

I found the following passages in the Wiki article "Religious Views of George Washington.



"Even during his lifetime, people were unsure of the degree to which Washington believed in Christianity. As noted above, some of his contemporaries called him a deist. Debate continues to this day regarding whether he is best categorized as a deist or as a Christian, and some writers have introduced other terms to describe a blending of the two.

Deism was an influential worldview during his lifetime.[70] There is no known record of Washington ever using "Jesus" or "Christ" in private or public writings or speeches. One document he signed but did not write did say to the Delaware Indian chiefs that learning the "religion of Jesus Christ" is the most important thing they can do.[71] Furthermore, Washington used "God" 146 times in his personal and public writings.[72] Some of these references to "God" are stock phrases like "God forbid" or "God be with you". Some instances are serious expressions about God and especially His divine intervention in the affairs of mankind, commonly known as Providence. Washington used words such as "Grand Architect" and "Providence" that were popular among some deists.[73] These terms were also commonly used by the Freemasons.[74] While deists and Freemasons did use these words, words like "Providence" specifically were not exclusively used by deists and Freemasons, but were also used by Christians during Washington's time period.

Historian Fred Anderson says that Washington's Providence was, "a generally benevolent, as well as an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient being, but He was hardly the kind of warm and loving God embraced by the evangelical Protestants."[75]

Paul F. Boller, Jr. stated "Washington was no infidel, if by infidel is meant unbeliever. Washington had an unquestioning faith in Providence and, as we have seen, he voiced this faith publicly on numerous occasions. That this was no mere rhetorical flourish on his part, designed for public consumption, is apparent from his constant allusions to Providence in his personal letters. There is every reason to believe, from a careful analysis of religious references in his private correspondence, that Washington's reliance upon a Grand Designer along Deist lines was as deep-seated and meaningful for his life as, say, Ralph Waldo Emerson's serene confidence in a Universal Spirit permeating the ever shifting appearances of the everyday world."[76]

David L. Holmes, author of The Faiths of the Founding Fathers, in a sidebar article for Britannica categorizes Washington as a Christian deist.[77] His usage of this category implies a religious spectrum of sorts for deism. Holmes also distinguishes between strict deists and orthodox Christians by their church attendance, participation in religious rites (such as baptism, Holy Communion, and confirmation), the use of religious language, and opinions of contemporary family, friends, clergy, and acquaintances. Regarding these specific parameters, Holmes describes Washington as a Christian deist due to his religious behavior falling somewhere between that of an orthodox Christian and a strict deist. Although Washington was clearly not a communicant, was infrequent in his Church attendance, and did not deem it necessary to participate in religious rites, Holmes labels him as a Christian deist due to his references of God, which resemble strict deistic terminology yet add a Christian dimension of mercy and divine nature."

Jim

I belive Biden doesn't belive in God. Look at what he did in Afghanistan made us look like (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) kissing up to Xi.

Do any Catholics want to be freemasons? I guess if you feel your religion is holding you back, it may be time to switch or drop out.

Probably not many politicians that believe in God.

Being a god fearing good christian is an anchor around a politicians neck.Look what happend to that good christian man Mike Pense.

I find it curious that many people think that merely believing in God's existence gains them some sort of credit or good standing in God's sight. That's a very misguided thought.

That would like saying, that since I believe in Hillary Clinton's existence, that must make me a Democrat.

That's true waggler. The belief in the resurrected savior Jesus is the only way to get credit/good standing with God.

What happened to Mikey?

He dropped out of the President’s race.

I wouldn’t believe much on wiki , how about we see what Washington’s contemporaries said about his Christian faith.
John Peter Muhlenberg was a General in Washington’s army camped at Valley Forge in the winter of 1778 and his father visited the encampment. His father was the Rev. Henry Muhlenberg and had this to say after the visit, “General Washington...respects God’s word, believes in the atonement through Christ, and bears himself in humility and gentleness.”

Doesn’t sound like a deist to me, he believed in Christ the Savior, this is from a man that knew Washington. Taken from:
The Journals ofHenry Melchior Muhlenberg (Philadelphia:The Muhlenberg Press,1958), 3:149, journal entry for May 7th, 1778.

Mostly the reason for not being able to join the Freemasons is historical. The POPE and the kings tried to kill off the Knights Templar in the 14th. century.

The Knights had money and influence. So an excuse was created to do away with the Templar. The date of Friday the 13th. was the day of execution for them.

You have to be a member of the Blue Lodge to become a Templar.

I'm neither Catholic nor a mason, but I see a problem with this pledge...as Christians, doesn't our loyalty belong to the one we claim is the true king of the world - Jesus? To pledge loyalty to a nation or its government would divide my loyalty. I can't decide if that's breaking Commandment 1 or 3. I think a sound argument could be made for each. I don't know what the Pope's rationale was in the statement currently being discussed. That's just my own two cents.

This thread has been interesting. There are tangential topics oozing out in every direction. Many of them would be fun to discuss, but I don't think we can effectively address them all. There have been some good, humble, honest responses; these have been refreshing. Others seem to just be emotionally triggered by views that aren't in line with their own; which is par for the course. When it comes to religious and political discussions, the underlying issue that I almost always detect is syncretism (I've beaten this horse before, but I don't think it's dead yet). None of us should be surprised by that; there has been some research that suggests that Syncretism is America's primary religion. Barna Group did a study in 2021 showing that 69% of Americans claimed Christianity, but only 6% were what they called "integrated disciples". If they're right, that means that 90% of people who claim to be living from a Christian view of reality are, in actuality, living from a different worldview. In other words, 90% of what passes for Christianity in this country, to put it simply, isn't. One of the most common modes of syncretism that I see here is political in nature: people have obviously sworn allegiance to and put their faith in some (usually idealized) version of American politics, but then they defend their loyalty to a human institution by claiming that it's really loyalty to God Himself. I can't get behind that (Neither could Daniel, see his namesake book, especially chapter 3). It does happen though. I've seen people on T-man say that Trump is the Messiah. There have been plenty of memes posted with DJT bowing before a cross which sits before the American flag. Where did that image come from? In what direction is that designed to lead our loyalties? This isn't a new phenomenon, however. The dome of the capitol rotunda contains a fresco called "The Apotheosis of Washington." It may be symbolic, but it is pretty telling. It also reminds us of earlier days when everyone literally thought that kings were demigods or better.

All that to say, as Christians (Catholic, protestant, or in-between), our citizenship is in the Kingdom of Heaven. That doesn't mean that politics and brotherhoods don't matter or that we shouldn't care. It doesn't necessarily mean we can't be a part of political groups or social clubs. It just means that they don't get to have our primary allegiance. Our views, opinions, memberships, etc. should always be evaluated in the context of our membership in God's Kingdom and our loyalty to King Jesus.

No one knows what Washington thought or said except him. Everyone is finding what someone said 200 or more years ago because it props up there version of what they think. What was said or written down that long ago can't be proved one way or the other,

"No one knows what Washington thought or said except him. Everyone is finding what someone said 200 or more years ago because it props up there version of what they think. What was said or written down that long ago can't be proved one way or the other,"

Huh....same could be said of the Bible....

and here we go!

I guess the libs are right, we shouldn’t be having kids say the Pledge of allegiance to the flag or even the military for that matter.

Freemasonry is no more a religion than trapping. If you want it to be, it will be.

An excellent point. A lot of the writings Washington left behind were intended for public consumption--a public that was predominantly Christian. Washington was a great general and leader, but was also at some level a politician.

For his true views on such things as a deity and Freemasonry, I would be more influenced by his private writings--his letters, diary, journal, and so forth.

Jim

Of course we know what Washington said, according to your thinking all recorded historical figures quotes mean nothing or aren't accurate because of age. This is the kind of thinking that rewrites the history of this nation by liberal revisionist. I credit my sources which can be found supporting what was said. You dismiss what was said out of hand, you offer no proof for your statements. Got any idea of what Patrick Henry said? Think it can't be proved?

Good point.

...not many mighty, not many noble, are called...