#%&@ immigrants taking all our jobs.

I took this video of guys picking and loading celery near Tacoma Washington today; 40's, wind, rain, and mud.
There is no way that Americans will do this kind of work anymore around here, probably nowhere in the USA.
If you posted this job for 40$ an hour you might get a couple of Americans to show up; but they would probably quit by noon.
We really need to make it easier for these guys from south of the border to get temporary work permits here. The present system of making them jump the border is a disaster. Both political parties have had the opportunity to fix this problem. I don't think they want to fix it; they want to hang on to the issue in order to rile-up their base.

Maybe we should quit paying Americans to sit around on there sorry rears everyday.

X1000

.

Backwards thinking there.
Cut the teat suckers off welfare and if they dont work at these or any other job they starve.
If Americans had to work in order to feed themselves and their families they would take those jobs-and a whole lot more less desireable jobs too.

That’s funny Wolfdog

You could stop paying lazy deadbeat and fake disabled deadbeat Americans and fix the immigration system so that we have necessary labor. Simultaneously. It would be a great step in the right direction

Yeah right, that's the democrats voter base in the big cities that help win the electoral votes. Stopping their pay ain't happening.

People are being told they should be making a "living wage" no matter the job. Alot of jobs are a great learning experience for inexperienced, young, people. It helps them decide whether or not they want a job where they will come home dirty every day or if they would rather put some additional time in to learn a trade or profession. For the record, if I didn't need health insurance and job security, I'd be happy to give up my $15/hour job in MN to pick veggies in another state for that kind of money. Problem is, I ain't Mex and I am expected to pay for my own health care and groceries. Well, that, and I have a social security number that requires me to claim any and all income and pay taxes on it, or go to jail.

I totally agree that the we shouldn't pay people to sit around. Still would not fix the farmers needs.... because those type of folks are worthless on the farm.

I am for allowing anyone from any country to legally enter the US to work in the fields as long as they are productive.
As a young man, I worked side by side with green card holders from Mexico. I was impressed with their work ethic and good-natured attitude.
It was a good experience for me in that I got to see first hand how to get hard work done and be happy doing it.

I occasionally need help building fence, and a few other jobs, and I will hire some of our local illegals. Those boys are eager and know how to work. And my tools and equipment won't walk off. The unemployed white guys are either on drugs, drunks or just plain lazy.

If the Feds have a problem with it, they know where to find me.

Is it really that hard to get legal migrants? Farmer here in town needed help and couldn't find any so here imported 3 legal Mexicans. They worked from May until September and then went back home. They definitely did things no white person around here would do. They had a hard time finding people to work at the farm stand ringing up vegetables because "it's too hot" with a fan running on them as they sat on their butt. Meanwhile, the Mexicans were picking veggies in 100 degree heat and humidity without even any shade and carrying 40+ lb totes of veggies half a mile on their shoulders.

I have a hard time believing we can't find Americans to do work in this country. I spent years alongside folks just like me, working on steel roofs in 90-100 degree weather and other construction jobs at temperatures well below zero. I never made more than $20/hr unless it was O/T. Maybe y'all should advertise for help in Nebraska?

Trapperkeck....yes, it is hard to believe. Wish it were not so.

Thats a picnick,try working on the steel gang between the rails all summer at 130 + degrees spiking track.
Or spreading ties off a rackflat with a pickeroon,slipping and sliding on the creosote while the worktrain is rocking all day on the tie gang.
or running beside a ballast train all day for 7 or 8 miles opening the doors with a jimmy bar in one hand and pounding them with a track hammer in the other when they jam with rock.

And thats just summer.
40 below changing broken rail at night in the middle of nowhere using fusees for light in a blizzard is what really separates the men from the boys.

I'm just saying every illegal guy I've worked with or had work done by is pretty top notch. Hard working folk

Remember when I was doing construction work and our bricklayer sub contracter had a 10 person crew. Everyone except two Mexican where black. Them two out worked 8 people,never complained where always very nice when we had to help them or vice versa. They where there an hour before we came and still there a few after we left. Came back one day and it was only those two laying brick. Ask the subcontractor what happened and he said he fired the other 8 because it didn't make sense to pay them when these two put out 4x the work with a quarter of the problems.

If I was able to increase my wages by 800% and then return home to my impoverished country with my "riches" and live like a king, vegetable picking wouldn't be that hard.

All the same arguments that were used to justify slaves for centuries and when slavery was outlawed we had the industrial revolution which brought us into the modern age. Necessity breeds innovation, cheap labor hinders innovation.

There are programs in place for farmers to more readily get migrant labor. One local farmer participates as long as he can provide enough required hours for the laborers. When he can't, other locals usually have some odd jobs for the farmer to meet the requirement of hours for his migrant workers.

I see 2 major issues here:
1) Who is currently separating these hard working humble immigrants who we probably need from the drug trafficker's, child abusers, or other carreer criminals at the border? Hint, the answer is nobody.

2) If we pay an able bodied man to sit on his (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) all day, why would he go out and compete for a job? Hint, the answer is he won't

Their probably making about $12 an hour no benefits. We can get anybody to do almost anything for the proper amount of money, including U.S. citizens. The reason these farmers (which I would assume there are very few family farms, more like corporate) cant pay the wage is because globalism pushed them out of the market. We do not have any form of real capitalism, that's just a lie they condition little kids with. The illusion that people don't like to work here is because almost everyone has the wage calculated down so they can extract every single tiny spot of value out of you and people are starting to get bitter. You don't "work your way up" anymore. If you stay loyal to your employer now, you will make 50% less than the guy that changes employers every 2 years. Keep businesses local, employ local, limit trade, and improve your community instead of sending your money to Mexico to help Jaun stimulate their economy (plus no taxes, a complete drain on our system).

June will be along soon to say God says we have to accept em.

... that’s what chinamen are for

^^^^^
I say we accept them because I don't want to pay $20 for a bunch of celery.
BTW, this is a "family farms" which I would much rather see remain viable than to import all our produce from central and south America.

... I don’t understand why any self respecting man would eat celery

X2

^^^^^^
You're probably thinking about that pale greenish-yellow limp stuff that they grow in Texas and California.
This celery is thick, dark green and especially good with peanut butter. I guarantee you've never experience real celery.

Tough issue. We do need a guest worker program, but I'm in favor of enforcing the law. So long as current law forbids employing them, it's wrong and employers should be fined, jailed, whipped, beaten. (Figuratively, of course.)

If Americans have to start paying $20 for a bunch of celery, in order to pay other Americans decent living wages, so be it. Consumers may get tired enough of high prices to lever their representatives in Congress to fix our immigration law.

But that would be the free-market approach, so it will never happen.

Jim

... enjoy your firm, dark thick stalks and what not ... I’m out ...gettin too weird for me in here

... y’all go on with your deep thinkin and green tea drinkin lol

Let's think this one out. Lazy deadbeats don't want to work, and most don't know how to work, right?

Ever supervise a lazy deadbeat and try to make him work? Seriously--have you? Who's going to do that, if we make the deadbeats get jobs? How many supervisors per deadbeat would be required? Who's going to pay all the supervisors?

If they don't take jobs (not the same as actually working), do we deny them food and shelter? If so, what do we do about the huge new classes of scavengers and predators we've created?

These people aren't all going to be able to swim, just because you decide it's time to take away their life preservers.

Bad as it is, we're stuck with our welfare system.

Jim

The US has used immigrant and migrant labor over 160 years and that was before, welfare, assistance, SSN etc. so having legal and or illegal immigrants working in the US in large numbers is not a new thing, it has been pretty standard for several generations. Creating policies that provide income with little or no work is a bigger society ill or issue then it is taking the place of those who do that work now. The real issue with 10 million unfilled jobs is the lost GDP when all those wages, benefits etc. are not collected, utilized and put back into the economy. Not many that are not working now and will go to work will be saving a lot of money, they will be putting it into the economy. The major difference is that it will come from the private sector and not the public sector.

Bryce

1 person should easily be able to supervise 20 lazy dead beats, firing the ones that won't work. And yes, I have done plenty of dead beat supervising. And if they won't take jobs, YES deny them food and housing. Let the scavengers scavenge, shoot or arrest the predators. AND once you arrest them, they can work on the chain gangs like we still have here down south to earn their keep.

I thought there were legal means for these people to get into the US? What's wrong with making them do it legally?

Can someone define a "decent living wage"?

Is it enough to have 3 cars, a half million dollar home, every latest greatest new fangled computer or phone, expensive 4 wheelers or side by sides, bass boat, etc.?

Or is it enough to provide a modest home and 3 square meals a day and health insurance for your family?

Or is it somewhere in between?

The problem is a "decent living wage" means different things to different people.

Used to be if you wanted the 3 cars and the half million dollar home, you worked hard, worked overtime, maybe worked a part time 2nd job and saved and invested your money. If you weren't making enough money at your job, you looked for a better job or maybe got some education from college or a trade school which helped one to get a better paying job or encouraged your employer to give you a nice raise to keep you from leaving.

In today's world, instead of one trying to better themselves by getting an education or making ones self valuable enough to your employer that he will pay to keep you, most (like the fast food workers) just demand that they need 15 dollars an hour. Instead of protesting and demanding they should have been out looking for a better paying job unless working at McDonalds was all they were qualified or willing to do.

To better one's life it starts with a small step in the right direction and only the person that looks back at you in the mirror can take that step for you.

No bad students. Only bad teachers.

Did a trapper just ask this?

I think the farmer should pay what it cost to produce the food and charge not just what it cost to produce but a decent living wage on top of it. If you can’t afford to buy food, grow your own.

All this over celery, a luxury food with negative calories. The U.S has to become Mexico because if the desire for cheap celery. Selling our kids future for cheap produce.

[quote=waggler There is no way that Americans will do this kind of work anymore around here, probably nowhere in the USA.
If you posted this job for 40$ an hour you might get a couple of Americans to show up; but they would probably quit by noon./quote]

I said this all along. There's job openings here paying over 20/hr, that aren't filled.

I hope this comes out right. The democrats are paying Americans not to work then say we have all these jobs that need workers so are only choice is to let the illegals in to fill the jobs then they in turn vote democratic and the socialist America every one keeps talking about is here without one shot being fired.

Blessings,
Mark

I sure hope that celery isn't the only thing you think is picked by migrant workers, but if so, carry on.

Whenever I worked in weather like that for not much money we just called it trapping.

That's above my pay grade bacatrapper. You don't have to accept anyone you don't want to sir, but that's the opposite of the #2 command to Christians, so please don't give me a ticket to get on that bus. It's full and getting fuller each day.
I'm rogue.
I'm one of those opposite of the masses dudes.

I'll stick with obey the laws of the land and show mercy to humans made in the image of God.

Blessings,
Mark

we could absolutely have a guest worker program , I have no issue with that.

growers contract employees get them GWV Guest Worker Visas , probably get labor companies who could employ and contract for picking have busses and bunk houses and kitchens set up to transport the GW and get them to and from the fields , to the bunk houses , feed them.

the issue is however that , that wouldn't exploit people the way they like to , there would be accountability.

accountability for the people , cost in transport , cost in housing , where is you have Illegals you have them over a barrel , they work for you in your conditions at your pay or you turn them in to ICE

we had a bust in WI in 2018 a slave labor ring a company that contracted harvesting they were based out of GA and were getting people often even on real Visas then they would take their cell phones and passports and not pay them, when a worker got injured the labor boss also Mexican was not there to quickly cart the person of and the grower drove them to the hospital they realized what had been going on and the grower cooperated with the FBI he wanted pickers he didn't want slaves he thought he was paying fairly for seasonal pickers and didn't realize the labor company was enslaving their people

this fits into the morality of immigrants Mark was talking about , they are people and deserving of being treated like people fed , medical care , and not exploited , but that is exactly what the current system of let them flood across the border does it opens them up to exploitations to a greater level.

many years ago a company I worked for sub contracted out sand blasting work

the boss was concerned that the Mexican sand blasters wore only a bandana , when he asked the sand blast company guy about it he said no worries they all go back to Mexico every year so we have no liability in it

treating people as disposable is wrong , we never hired that company again. probably should have done more to end their practice.

the issue is that the very people calling for human rights and benefits for illegals/undocumented workers are often the ones gaining from their exploration much the way it is often the ones yelling free speech then trying to restrict other peoples speech , hypocrites

As one of the Americans grudgingly funding it, I am not willing to accept we are stuck with our welfare system. Sure, it would be unrealistic to just turn off the spigot--but it could be seriously reformed.

And, if a lazy deadbeat does not want to get a job--let them deal with the consequences. I bet some of them would pick up a basket and pick celery.

Well said.

It’s definitely a problem and if much rather have documented non citizen workers who work, pay taxes etc out of their income, and return home than undocumented illegals who stay here.

As someone earlier said, both “sides” need to come together and work on this FOR REAL! Happy trapping! ScottW

As GCP eluded to, treating workers as disposable is terrible. Immigrants workers should be provided and use the same PPE as any of the rest of us. Happy trapping! ScottW

A good post GreencountyPete,

Many people use someone else's talking points but you outlined valid considerations.

Blessings,
Mark

I know of no company that treats their employees as disposable. Replaceable, yes but not disposable.

Well Hobbie, In the case mentioned of a company saying “don’t worry they go back each season and we have no liability” since they weren’t wearing proper PPE…….is in reality treating them as disposable. Happy trapping! ScottW

I too agree with GCP on treating people as disposable. It is wrong and it does happen. I remember it when I worked in the oilfield and I have no doubt it still occurs.

I also find it curious that when confronted with a hard or dirty job people say "go get a Mexican." As used there, Mexican is not merely a description of Hispanic. Heads would explode if I said "go get a N-Word."

They tell us there are 600,000 people trafficked in Texas alone. Human trafficking is rampant in our land as ding dongs march in America's streets - for all the wrong things... puppets of the top dog ding dongs.

James, you are starting to sound like a conservative!

You don't eat it just use it to stir that bloody beer or bloody mary when your take your gal out to breakfast on Saturday morning between hunting trips.

it really isnt that hard to get temporary migrant workers thru H2 visa program. virtually every big farm i know of jumps thru the hoops. of course that involves some red tape that probably could be streamlined but its not a super hard process at all.

It was before our times guys but have you heard of the CCC back in the 30's I think it was. They built alot of the buildings at the state and national parks around here. I believe the goverment paid their wages but they did work . The same thing could happen today. No job and hungry work for your goverment check.

If PPE is available and they don’t use it, that is on them.

.




the WI grower that alerted and cooperated with the FBI in the slavery case in 2018 is the place my parents buy sweet corn from my grandma used to work in their green houses part time 30 years ago . That is slavery awfully close to home and a long way from the southern border.

must have been away from those folks in the writing program long enough that common sense is slipping back in

The reason they are easily exploited is they have come here illegally. Duh! A guest worker program that is properly administered makes sense. It's obvious that the people that don't act on it oppose it. Washington is bought and paid for and it is not average Americans paying the bill. Freaking money is not speech. It's the fuel of corruption.

Taste's good and is good for you? Makes a dandy scoop for that Ranch dip!

Deep fried chicken tenders make a much better ranch scooper.

Nobody is being exploited. Unless the workers don’t get paid the agreed price. Or the worker steals from his employer. To sell your labor is just another contract in life. This place is full of liberal gibberish.

Do you feel exploited? Illegals are not this gullible.

Could it be that WDC elites and more profit (in many ways) from the endless border bedlam and have no incentive to solve it?
That's got to be close to the green.

I smile when I hear a socialist noodle head speak of the equality of societal economics >>> mouthed by every Marxist.
It's a lie.
The only way to gain the Marxist Utopia on earth is at the end of the gun barrel, because people in power are notorious throughout history for using people for their personal gain.
People do not by nature unselfishly share or extend hospitality.
Darwin said survival of the fittest and people's nature likes that theme.

Blessings,
Mark

Great point

It's real good with peanut butter !

Define liberal ?

They need to unionize to get their fair share.and not be exploited by greedy capitalist dogs and show them whos the boss and who actually runs bartertown..

The IBIA. International Brotherhood of Illegal Aliens.

There's one!

we used to have a lot of seasonal migrant workers around here to work in the tobacco fields. I worked with several of them and the ones i worked with were hard working and decent people. But after a while some of them figured the system out and found them a fat white woman and had a few anchor babies and all of a sudden the woman's government check was a lot easier way to make a living than sweating in the tobacco patch. But as the tobacco faded out so did the workers. I had a big carport built last fall and the whole crew were migrants and they did very good work and were very friendly and polite.

FDR was right then? Send people cha ching and most, not all, will dance to your fiddle tune.

Same thing the US does when it goes to a foreign country and mandates Western morality in the theme of rainbows flags or same sex marriages. "DO THIS!" or the $$$ dries up. Huge pressure right now on the African continent as Europe and the USA and Canada bring our values to that continent with the carrot being dangled >>> You want our money, hang the rainbow flags and marry same sex people.

Who still thinks subsidies for other nations, especially through the WHO and similar is compassionate?
Hardly. It's far from compassionate when you use $$$$ to force others to accept your agenda.

Some will not be bought by FDR surrogates.
Thank God.

Blessings,
Mark

This country was founded by criminal immigrants, made larger by grater numbers of immigrants. Through much of the US history immigrants have competed with native born for jobs and businesses. How many on this forum are not descended from immigrants?
If Americans had enforced stiffer immigration laws in 1500, we wouldn't be talking about this now.

Seriously, celery or traps or anything else, if the American producer pays "a living wage" (one that provides the $1/2 million house) and then adds that cost into the sale price, we the people will simply import that product from a country where people live cheaper and so work cheaper.

It came came out right!

Went back and pulled a bit of a recent article I was reading titled, "Move over Sex and Drugs, Ease is the New Vice."
This may be a game changer that started in recent decades.
Here's a taste of the article which highlights how the young are engaging in less of the birds and the bees, and more in doing "not much."

"Our apparent fatigue with bodily living extends to other areas, as well. Two years ago, in response to declining cereal sales, market researchers went looking for answers to why younger people were opting out of the convenience food that had fed their parents and grandparents. According to researchers they found the reason: Breakfast cereal—with the whole bother of bowl and spoon—involved far too much work. “Almost 40 percent of the millennials surveyed by Mintel for its 2015 report said cereal was an inconvenient breakfast choice because they had to clean up after eating it.”

"The decline in sexual activity and cereal sales hardly seem correlated, but both seem to point to one of the most seductive promises of a technological age: that ours should be a life of ease. (As in doing nothing). Our lives (at least in the developed world) get easier, and we are increasingly formed by the desire for ease. Of all the cautions we raise about technology—its distractions and temptations, its loneliness and superficiality—this promise of unencumbered living is perhaps the most insidious danger and also the one we talk the least about."

Game changer.
Trapping work is gonna be much too much work for those who won't clean a cereal bowl and spoon.

City life does that.
Need to get back to the bush for a few days livin every once in a while to keep grounded.

The amount of sex young people engage in is only going down because we are becoming a polygamous society. With online dating and hookup apps the few best high value men have access to many different women, one night or one week at a time. The "lower value" men have no access to women at all and retreat into video games and porn.

I see that many on here adopt the idea that "America is a set of ideals" and that any group of people placed here with the ideals we implemented would of had the same outcome. You've already been proven wrong and will be more so within a generation.

What are you smoking? Anybody that takes the risk and puts in the work can be successful. The problem is most folks are one and done.

There are multiple facets to success beyond hardwork. IQ is correlated to monetary success and IQ is both genetic and not distributed equally among all people groups

Really? How many brain surgeons are in the NFL? NBA? How about the PBA?

That's a very strange theory. So what are the ugly chicks doing?

lol. Working.

How many brain surgons have an IQ below 100? Probably none. Success in sports is also largely genetic. I'm not saying hard work is not important but it's not the only factor.

Athleticism is one of the only exceptions to the trend. Not only are there not many positions in the NFL/NBA compared to the number of surgeons in the U.S. On top of that, you have to be the best of the best of the best to make it to one of those leagues.

lol

You people are whacky.

Hobbie, I think you lost the argument. Lol.

Care to expand? Not many people are getting wealthy from their athleticism compared to getting wealthy from their intelligence.

I don't buy for one second that Americans are too lazy to work. There are hard working Americans all over this country, and there is not a doubt in my mind that they would do that kind of labor. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go around.

I think the problem is that hard working Americans have realized something that the corporate folks and others that benefit from cheap labor and the American worker have not. And that is the value of their hard worked for dollar and what its purchasing power is today.

I am as conservative as anyone on this site and a strict constitutionalist, but I also believe in paying a man for what he is worth. I ask you this........why the outcry from so-called conservatives about increasing the minimum wage? Yeah, yeah, I here all the stuff about increasing cost of production of wages going up, but it really does not matter to the day laborer working for $200-300/day. 20 years ago, one could survive on that amount of money and even raise a family if they lived within their means. Today, one cannot live on that; instead, they work 14 hours a day at a day rate and hope they get a raise, which is seldom the case. Some are payed hourly, and then have to pay taxes on their earnings. Heck, today inflation is so outrageous it is only affecting the common working man. I doubt that the corporate folks even know what a gallon of milk or a loaf of bread costs. Not too mention how much it's gone up in the last year.

Just in my lifetime and seeing the prices of everything going up, I don't understand the uproar about raising minimum wage. A dollar does not go anywhere near as far as it did 20 years ago. This country is not for the working man, but rather against it. And then to hear so called conservatives say its because the working class is lazy really ticks me off.

In my opinion, the reason that business people and corporate America is against increasing pay for Americans is that everything will have to go up then in order to meet their bottom lines. This will affect their pocket books Well wake the crap up people, this has already happened to the working man. His pocket book has been getting shortchanged for 2 decades!

I hate to say it but, in our current system, the rich just get richer and the poor get more poor. Don't believe me, then you have not experienced it and are probably part of the problem.

No, but they are doing just fine figuring out what they are good at, being at the top of their craft and negotiating compensation for it. Nothing genius about it.

There are a ton of folks working that just do the job and take what they get, they are okay with settling for that.

Its quite simple really. Business' make a lot more money paying illegal immigrants than they can paying Americans. That pretty much sums it up.

If working was an Olympic sport, they would take the gold every event. Why? Because of attitude and effort.

I will say this, you would have to tell them what event was next, but they still take gold. lol

200-300$ a day! I'm guessing, most of the folks on here would be tickled to make that kind of $$$. I suppose, it's relative to where you are, but the top 1/3 of incomes in this country is $65K. Borrowing your life away sure makes it appear folks are making bank, however.

Spot on!

Well chancy what should the minimum wage be?

While I agree trapperkeck, the reality is these are day wages, and Americans get handed a 1099 at the end of year.
Illegal aliens do not. Add to that no sick pay, vacation, retirement, insurance, or any other benefits; and the fact that many of these jobs are weather dependent, then the actual wage is much lower. Which is fine by me, because think capitalism is the best form of government we have.

However, that is not to say that a high school educated man working for $250/day with a wife and a young child, while paying rent, and a car payment is getting ahead. They have no money to save, and that is reality.

I guess we could change our culture and all the kids move in with mom, dad, and grandma where they have 7 kids in a room with one bathroom and they could save some money.

I usually agree with most of what you post Chancey but you completely lost me on this. $200-300 a DAY isn't enough to live on?? Maybe that's a typo and you meant WEEK?

I'm guessing you haven't spent much time working with the dregs of society. Most of them work for a day or two and then quit. Some make it a week or two. Maybe 1 out of 20 might hit the 90 day mark. Your mind would be blown if you see the lack of basic reasoning skills some people possess, and their complete inability to learn. Soldiers start out at $15/hr. Do you really believe that someone who after three months of training can not roll a burrito or make change from a dollar should be receiving the same pay? Of the people that do make it for more than 90 days, 95% of them call in sick or leave early or come in late at least once every week. They never volunteer to stay late or pick up another day. 80% of the day is spend browsing Facebook on their phone, and the other 20% is spent griping about how they don't get paid enough. You send them to do a small chore like wiping tables or stocking the cooler, they come back an hour later and say they're done and fool that you are you believe them and let them leave for the day only to find once you did that they never even attempted to do the task and just lied to you about it.

No, those people don't deserve $15 an hour and they don't deserve the $8/hr they're making!

Jobs that pay minimum wage are starter jobs... they're for kids still in high school, or bored retirees. They are NOT designed to provide a living wage, nor should they be. They're a place anyone with an ounce of common sense can start out to learn about work as a young person before moving on to something better.

At least 12/hour. When I was working minimum wage, I made $4/hour. A chicken tender meal cost 3.99 and with tax came to $4.32. A can of Copenhagen cost a little over 3 dollars, and gas was around $1.10/gallon.

Now that chicken tender meal is nearly 10 bucks, snuff is $8, and you know what gas costs.

What is minimum wage now? I wonder why the working man is ticked off?

I worked harder than that on the Muck farms here for a Dollar an hour,,12 hours a day 6 days a week.And at the end of the week,,I was happy to get my brown envelope with $72 cash money in it.Government needs to stop paying low life freeloaders to stay at home sitting on their arses.No work,,No money.Go starve,

When I was 16 I worked for $5 a day Treeplanting.
When I was 17 I started work on the railroad for $1.10 an hour.And after work we had to cut our own wood on our own time if we didnt want to freeze our arses in the bunkhouse.No electricity no running water.
Even back then many got off the train to work,and quit the next day.The work and the lifestyle separated the men from the boys.Anyone who trapped(Indians) and was used to bush life had no problem,same with farmboys from the farming areas.All good hard workers.Town boys and city boys couldnt cut the mustard for the most part.Too soft.

My first hourly paying job was for 3.45 an hour(min wage) for a local farmer. Thought i was doing great when I went to work for an ag company at 5.50 ( end of hs and college) -- made the mistake of staying with that company for almost 20 years and topped out at about 50k per year.now i work for myself -- wages about the same but alot less hours ------- farming is not where the money is at. That is one thing you can count on in farming -- long hours and low pay.

59 years ago at 14 I left home to take a job for $1 per day, room and board as I needed a place to live and stay. Farm work on a dairy farm, school 5 days a week farming 7. We can all expound to no end about our work, wages and desire to work decades ago, but we don't live in that era today. I could save money back then to go to college. Today to get to college I would needed to have made 10 to 20 times that much.
UE is down to 4.6% we had over 500k of new jobs filled in October, I doubt most were filled by illegals. Wow we only have about 9 million more to fill!! Stock market is liking what it sees and that means business is taking some calculated risks again. The big increase in wage payment to attract employees will probably be very detrimental to the smaller business owners who can not compete in an elevated wage package environment. More centralization maybe the outcome to what we are experiencing, which means the market will continue to look for workers and wage earners and not business owners.

Bryce

No ma'am Yote, it was not a typo. And I will stand by my statement that $200-300/day that will be 1099ed is not enough to live on and try to raise a family. Sure, its totally OK for a single person; as I lived on that for years. When I made that statement, I was talking about day laborers, not highshcool kids sacking groceries or bringing fast food out to people.

I have worked with the dregs of society and also happen to be kinned to some of them. I agree, they aren't worth $8/hour, and I would never hire them, but rather try to pay more for better qualified people. Much like Chik fila does. I doubt many of the folks working at Chik fila have much more than a highschool degree; yet business seems to be booming for them.

I used to buy into the "minimum wage" is not supposed to be a living wage hoopla; and that it was a stepping stone for highschool kids trying to better themselves. Experience and time have humbled me, and that mantra is BS. I travel all the time and eat at restaurants frequently, most of the people that take my order are not young kids, but rather folks in their 30s working their tails off for minimum wage maybe plus tips; barely scratching by.

I just got back from visiting SW Minnesota. I loved the area, and would move there in a heartbeat if it wasn't so dadgum cold!

The thing that struck me instantly in towns like Sanborn, Windom, and Jackson was that the downtown square was booming and hardware shops and stores were hopping. This is how my downtown square used to look all the time and especially on Saturdays. Until, our local government allowed Walmart to come in.

Those places are still hopping and doing well in SW MN in my opinion because they have not let Walmart come in. I hope and wish places like that the very best, as I know what they are facing, and respect the men and women of the communities for holding out.

So when you're saying 1099'd I assume you mean where they have to hold back their own money for taxes or end up having to pay at the end of the year? So you hold back 1/3... at 200 a day comes to $16/hr for a 40 hour week. That's decent money in these parts. At 300 a day, it would be $25/hr which would be GREAT money here. That's after holding back money for taxes. The downside to that type of work though is the lack of insurance. You can make $15/hr at Lowes with insurance available so yeah, day work like that probably doesn't seem like a great idea if you're needing to provide insurance for a family.



But WHY? Why would someone in their thirties stay at a job like that when there are better jobs available everywhere? The answer that makes the most sense is that like me, they're married and not needing a full income... just some extra spending money, and so are content with a job like that that fits THEIR schedule. The other answer is laziness or some psychological fear of change. I know people who fit in that last category. Tons of jobs available now that pay better but would rather stay at their low paying one than risk a change. Have you ever asked people why they stay at a low paying job? I have and the answer is almost always a version of "I like it here."

Don't forget the people who stay at low paying jobs, because they don't want to lose the government benefits. Can't make too much or you'll lose your subsidies.

A major reason many stay at low income jobs, or less then full employment, especially with family is not so much the assistance in cash, it is the food stamps and the health care. Many of the places they would go to and work full time or even pay more would not or do not provide HC that they can afford or has the coverage they are choosing to want or need. Getting to a more inclusive HC system is a move toward socialism but then so is doling out monies to the poor, middle and high income earners.
Bryce

Worked for years without health insurance because the money was better. Wife and I even had a kid during that time period.

Yes! I worked at a job about 10 years ago where I was a manager. Another manager was offered a promotion. Her schedule would have basically stayed the same and it would have been an $10.000 a year raise. She turned it down! I was floored, and asked her why. She said she would have lost her childcare, healthcare, and foodstamps which amounted to more than what the raise would have been. Unreal.

If $12 is good, $24 would be better, right? Heck, let's make it $40 so that everyone can be equal, no matter their ability or effort.

I agree that once we get this healthcare mess straightened out we will be better off as a country and many folks will be more likely to move to jobs they actually enjoy to some point, prosper in, and feel more free to leave if even better options become available. Like it or not, affordable, relatively easily attainable, and known commodity healthcare option or lack there of is the primary reason millions of people stick to what many would refer to as dead end jobs and/or welfare of some sort. Happy trapping! ScottW

I thought employers were paying the market price for labor? All these other ways to set the price of labor have their roots in a failed economic system. Of course you people despise that system.

Btw All those “We are hiring” signs I saw means the price is going up and so is inflation.

This nation is the wealthiest, most productive there's ever been. By every measure. This has been an interesting thread to read through. Many differing opinions which is as American as can be.
Money: It's what steers our national decisions, from getting married (or not), retiring (or not), seeking an education (or not), working (or not), having children (or not), making too much here or there (or not) and 1000 other categories, including whether to trap (or not).

I read an intriguing article about American biz culture lately arguing that the corporate environment in our land is bound together by universal grievance and complaining. People complain more in their attitudes, body language, and words, than any other activity they do on a daily basis at work... which is why, this corporate article says, corporations are racing to incorporate artificial intelligence to increase productivity even more. Machines don't complain.

The average age of Americans has been decreasing these past 5 years (pre-covid).
Seems we've hit a snag as a people group, as a nation, and as a culture.
At many different levels and in many different areas.

All I know, is that in the compassion work place.... docs, nurses, counselors, clergy..... there's not enough to go around any more and people are burned out. Vax or no vaxx mandate.
We'll see how it all pans out. I intentionally smile and say good morning even as the people in our land hustle past hardly looking at anybody anymore.
Call me (and my Mrs) weird.
We still try hard to "live where our feet are" among a nation of people who do not much anymore.

Plus, me and the Mrs. are headed after coyotes in another 9 days and we can't wait!

Blessings,
Mark

The weird thing is Mark money only steers my trapping decisions.

Are we the wealthiest nation if you include debt? We have alot but it's all financed on the backs of future generations

Of course not. We have a thriving consumer economy running on debt and QE.

We all get steered by the dollar and the allure of having more of them. But sometimes, it's just refreshing to sit and sip a cool drink and chat a while about "things," right Dirt?
Price of rats. Opps. $
Cost of traps now-a-days. Opps $
Gasoline expense. Darn this is tricky

How's the weather?
There we go!

Blessings,
Mark

There's debt in our land?
Huh.
I thought all that talk went the way of the dodo bird.
Drunken sailers are more frugal than WDC, by far.

Mark the making money part of trapping is not that I need the money, but it is the most challenging part of trapping since the boom. I also feel I owe the animals this effort to maximize their sacrifice. I empathize with my victims. I’m soft.

WDC debt is just a reflection of the American people who also are running record debt.

Those people have put themselves into slavery and don't even realize it.

dirt, where is the armpit of Alaska? I googled it and it said Bethel. Is that correct?

I hope you don't shop at Wal-Mart or buy off Amazon. Otherwise you're a hypocrite contributing to the problem.

Representatives "of the people."
Not sure if the "for the people" gets tossed around by all of 'em anymore. Some still do I'm sure.

That is supposed to be a crap hole, but not where I live.
Btw you hit the nail on the head about me staying at my low paying job with the I like it reason. I could make more, but I don’t need to.

I call where I live the armpit because of the terrible weather, abundant crop of mosquitoes, jungle like vegetation, constantly mismanaged or crashing fish and wildlife populations, and being too close to Alaska’s population center.

Fine, just be all coy, lol.

I think $12/hour is a fair minimum wage; particularly if someone is working 10+ hour days. I don't see any reason it should be over that for now.

But what if someone's not? What if someone is working 12 hours per week at burger king and can't count change or take an order or make a sandwich? They still deserve $12/hr?

I'd argue a "minimum wage," has been just another useless tool against anything equitable and fair. As an employer, I know what I need to pay people at every level, both on their side and mine. I don't even think about minimum wage. Never have.

Never will.

I have concrete evidence that Americans are no longer hard workers. I keep getting hired and have to turn down work. I’m old , weak and slow and have never considered myself a hard worker.

Nobody's grandchildren will be paying off today's debt...they will be adding more to it.

Yote, someone like that is not hireble IMO. I dont know what the answer is to that sector of our society.
I have family members who have burnt themselves up on drugs and fit your description. I guess we end up paying for them one way or another.

I agree Mark, fortunately many employers see it this way and pay accordingly. I have no problem with an employer working a man to the bone; particularly if both parties are agreeable to it.

However, I have worked and live long enough to see some folks dont live by the golden rule. I have a serious problem with employers not paying a hard worker what he’s worth because the worker is too “stupid” to know better. My comment was particularly directed to the miserly of society; they do exist.

Real wealth isnt "money" or "stuff'.
Real wealth lies in our connection to the earth.

Okay, but what about the ones that ARE hire-able but still only want to work 20 hours a week? I'm one of those! I've been turning down jobs left and right because they require 60 hour work weeks and that just doesn't mesh with my life. I'd be more apt to take a 20 hr a week job that pays $10/hr than a 60 hr a week job that pays 20. Call me lazy, lol. But because I KNOW I can make $20/hr, $10/hr seems more than fair for a job that will meet MY requirements....

We are just stupid.

Who IS John Galt?? LOL

That’s not what I meant, and you know it Dirt.

Yote, if someone wants to work partime, for whatever price they agree with. It’s between them.

So you're against a minimum wage then?

Should I be able to agree to work for the local farm stand for $10 an hour?

Or should I just stay home because the FEDS decided minimum wage should be $12/hr?

A ladyfriend has got a raise twice in the last month for a total of $7/hr raises. Nurses are fleeing ship so the only way of keeping them there is with $$$ Management got their positions from Affirmative Action rather than being qualified for the job and that ain't gonna change. New hires are Affirmative Action BLM hires and they don't have to do anything they don't want to. Nurses worked through the dempanic unprotected for the most part and now they are being fired for not falling in line with ridiculous mandates so they are leaving. Patients are more rude, disgusting, obese and demanding than ever before, and there just isn't any appreciation showed. There are other opportunities out there.

I have been known to work the hours after the gubmint made up number of 40 for the same fee as the first 40. I like to make my own arrangements.

I'm not sure I understand you're argument here. If someone is a bad employee, Burger King should fire them. Also, is someone's labor at a fast food joint worth less if they're only working part time instead of full time?

Cost of living goes up every year and the minimum wage stays the same for long periods of time. That alone should be a good enough reason to consider an increase.

Most crying for a minimum wage have never had to pay someones wage and all that goes with it.

Raising minimum wage is a great to make stupid people, who don't understand the links between supply, demand and price, feel better. Offering to raise minimum wage is a great way to get stupid people to vote for you. Raising minimum wage is a great way to make people spend money they are saving as prices skyrocket. Raising minimum wage is a great way to increase inflation .

Keith

Ok, well I am stupid then. I am not an economist, but I do understand supply and demand.

The point I am trying to make is that there should be a tangible value for an honest hours work. A day's labor should equal something of equal value in a hard asset.

Lets take agricultural land for example.....According to the USDA

In 1970, the minimum wage was $1.45/hour and the average value of Ag land was approximately $197/acre. Assuming one worked 40 hours a week and never took a day off, then they could have bought a little over 14 acres of good ag land for their wages after one year. (1920 hours worked in year)(1.45/hour) = $2,784 annual income/$197 per acre = 14.13 acres.

In 2020, the minimum wage was $7.25/hour and the average value of Ag land was approximately $3,160/ acre . Assuming one worked 40 hours a week and never took a day off, then they could have bought around 4.4 acres of good ag land for their wages after one year. (1920 hours worked in year)(7.25/hour) = $13,920 annual income/$$3,160 per acre = 4.4 acres.

For a young man or woman starting out on minimum wage in 2021, they would have to make $23.25/hour in order to buy the same amount of land that someone did in 1970.

I'm not an economist, but rather a dumb redneck, but the above math makes sense to me.

So because the demand for land went up, wages should have followed even though the demand for products produced didn’t necessarily?

No, I’m saying that the value of a dollar and an honest days work should have not decreased.

Can you give me an example of an honest days work decreasing?

My lady friend has been an RN for 30 yrs. Her 26 yr old daughter is also an RN and was hired at a higher starting wage than her Mother with 30 yrs of experience is making. 30 yrs ago a work week was 40 hrs to get benefits. Now it's 30 hrs to get benefits. Not much incentive for an experienced worker to keep on keepin on. 8 pages of debate here and it seems the only answer is to push the reset button and if a person can't make it on their own........tough tittie.

2001: Price of silver was $4.50/oz. At $5.15/hour minimum wage I could have bought around 2,197.3 oz of silver on minimum wage.

2021: Price of silver was around $23/oz. At $7.25/hour minimum wage I could have bought around 605.2 oz of silver on minimum wage.

My point is that a dollar or honest days work should be tied to some kind of finite value or hard asset. It used to be that way; not anymore.

So your complaining about the gold standard or the leaving of the gold standard.

I don’t see what that has to do with an honest days work and getting paid a wage agreed upon.

Neither do I.

I guess my point is moot.

Hmmm. I installed seamless gutter 0* to 100+ for 14 cents a foot and made 14K that year and was dam glad for it. And i read that someone never made less than $20.an hour.
You poor thing.
just

If you ask 100 longtime Alaskans, "Where is the armpit of Alaska," 99 of them would reply, "Bethel."

Dirt is just confused...as usual.

Or else he's a cheechako. lol

Jim

I don’t.

While that may be true. Bethel is known as the armpit. The tundra bunny hunting is outstanding.

Define a days work. Some jobs, days work is worth $30/hr. Some are worth $7/hr. You can't put them all in the same category and say "this an honest days work and is worth $/hr".

Exactly! Thanks for putting into a couple sentences what I wrote paragraphs trying to say!

She asked me where I live, not what you townies call Bethel. You have to understand the implied question to give the correct answer.

I'm not an educated man but I'm guessing near Anchorage.

I worked with a kid years ago that said "I don't think I'm worth $5 an hour." He went on to be a lawyer. Go figger.

Got no problem with legal immigrants or visa workers. Its when anyone tries to blur the lines with illegals is when I have a problem.

That is exactly my position. However, I often sense there is a blurring of the lines by some people who want to view all legal immigrants and visa workers as illegals.

I see immense pressure for everyone to pick a team, pick a side, CHOOSE who you love and who you can't stand.

I ain't playing that glitzy Karl Marx game y'all.
But then again that stubbornness has made me a real good coyote trapper

Rising wages is not the reason for an increase in inflation.

In fact it's quite the opposite.

Chancy you are on the right path with your thoughts. Governments have no business setting wages. What it should be doing is controlling it's false money creation that erodes the buying power of a person's earnings and savings

"Cost-push inflation occurs when overall prices increase (inflation) due to increases in the cost of wages and raw materials."

"U.S. inflation is still climbing and now higher labor costs are adding to the pressure."

But wages rise because stuff costs more to buy.In the past gov'ts have stepped in legislating wage and price controls with mostly poor results.
Its a self feeding spiral-same as global warming.

Price of labor changes due to the law of supply and demand for labor. Wages are increasing because there is a labor shortage. Competition for labor is driving prices up.

No its not-the 2 dollars they get wont buy what 1 dollar did before.
The VALUE of labour is going down.Thats why nobody will take jobs that pay more dollars today but is actually a lower real wage due to the printing of de-valued money..Like a snake eating its tail.

Dirt, do you buy into modern monetary theory? It's the same nonsense as you just posted

Wages and costs rise because of an increase in the money supply. 30 percent added in the last 2 years, it's no surprise costs are going up

So if we all stop buying stuff we don’t need what will happen?

All jobs are worth what the owner sets his wages at. If people don't come looking to work there, they raise wages until people come through the door. Once established, that's it.

Everyone will get out of debt and build savings. It worked for me. Higher wages won't guarantee wealth. Most know that. People usually just buy more junk and don't get ahead. Then they think they need more money and employers should raise their wages. It's not what you make, it's how you spend it.

Pretty sure you posted nonsense. The only reason price goes up is an increased money supply? I believe in the law of supply and demand. It's called a law, not a theory.

P.S. The labor shortage predates your money printing.


" Good help is hard to find—and increasingly so in today’s economy. According to a monthly survey by the National Federation of Independent Businesses, “a record percentage of small business owners reported having difficulties finding qualified workers in August.” It’s been the top problem in the survey since January 2018. Policy makers need to listen."

Well I'll stick with the Austrian school of economics. You can stick with the Keynesian.

No matter how big the demand is, if there only so enough money the price can only go so high.

Do you suppose it's possible the demand is being fueled by the excess money created by Washington?

Of course.

You are failing to see the difference between wages rising naturally tied to demand and raising wages artificially by the government declaring a new higher wage.

Keith

I bet Dirt has so much money stashed away that he don't have to worry about any of this. Heck, I bet he's so tight he can eat some coal and poop out a diamond. This is a joke Dirt! Ha!

I read your quote about small business' having trouble finding qualified workers. I think it is a half truth. There are plenty of qualified workers, they are just not willing to work what the business wants to pay them.
As you say Supply and Demand.

Regardless of whether wages rise artificially or due to supply and demand...... A dollar should be worth the same, and have the same buying power regardless. Does not matter if one works 90 hours a week for a certain dollar amount or 20 hours a week for a lower dollar amount. The value of that 1 dollar bill should remain the same.

"Unions function as labor cartels. A labor cartel restricts the number of workers in a company or industry to drive up the remaining workers' wages, just as the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) attempts to cut the supply of oil to raise its price. Companies pass on those higher wages to consumers through higher prices"

Supply and demand.

Lost me on this thread long ago, but something tells me that those crossing the border ILLEGALLY don't want to work, they want the handout...and those here without a job, also want the handout!

I guess nobody here enjoyed it when the value of the dollar was greater in value. Sun can't shine all the time.