Are Christians today fighting the will of God?

I think the Bible is clear.... God sets up and removes kings (Presidents) for his plan.
Daniel 2:21
Daniel 4:17
Psalms 75:5-7
Jeremiah 27:5
Proverbs 21:1
So my question is, IF Biden wins the presidency, and conservative Christians continue to claim fraud and say that Trump should have won, are they resisting the will of God? (Romans 13:1-5)
Some thing I’ve been thinking about, not looking to start an argument. I’ve seen a lot of Christians both before the election and now inferring that a Trump term is what God wants for America.... but we Don’t know that, do we? If God wants Trump to win I firmly believe Trump will win, but if Biden wins I also believe that is who God wants even though we may not understand his purposes. What we want, or think is best for us, is not always in line with God‘s plan.

No.

If God will “make it happen”, why vote at all?

A guy is stranded on the ocean. After a couple days a yacht comes by and the Captain shouts for the guy to come aboard. The guy cries out, “My God will save me, please go.” Couple days later a Coast Guard ship comes by and choirs at him to climb aboard. Again the man cries out, “My God will save me, please go.” Two more days pass and a helicopter flies over, circles and intercoms to the distressed man to get in the basket. He cries out, “My God will save me, please go.” After a week on the ocean the man perished. Upon meeting God, he exclaims, “I had faith you would save me yet here I am!” God replies, “I sent a yacht, the Coast Guard and a helicopter, I figured you wanted to be here.”

Hobbie... I believe we need to vote based on our beliefs and continued constitutional rights.... I never meant to infer we should not participate in elections.

Well I hope God's will is with Texas and the Sept court

Pafoxman, good question for sure.
So you ask, "IF Biden wins the presidency, and conservative Christians continue to claim fraud and say that Trump should have won, are they resisting the will of God? (Romans 13:1-5).

First, I don't hold your view of what Paul is writing to the Romans. I hold the view that the Bible is God's story of Himself so that we may know, and not a book of what we need to do (legalism). The church has had a million sermons and parishioners have heard a million applications of what to do with Scripture and I have a sincere question about the million sermons and millions applications.

After all that.... do people know the Bible story, from Genesis to Revelation? That's a legitimate question since it is the entire canonical Bible that we have handed to us through the millennia.

Do we know the entire story of the Bible? Not just certain verses we prefer. Who God is? Why God made us? What God's plan is?
For instance, most know John 3:16. What is John 3:15? John 3:17? Are these important too?

You see, I'd offer if we ourselves, don't know that story, we (including pastors and preachers and priests) can interpret the Bible any way we want because we put "me, us, them" in every sentence and steer the verse to our interpretation.

But..... what if we read the Bible, cover to cover, like we do any other book? So that we learn the whole story.
Pulling Paul's words from one passage doesn't help us realize that the Romans were a repressed people and the thought of any other ruler was beyond the mind.
So Paul is telling them to know their God (Christ) is the one true authority and to answer only to Christ Jesus.

Many Bible teachers don't see it that way perhaps, because they themselves don't know the story, so they lose context, because the Genesis 3:15: "Seed of the woman" theme is in every single book that precedes it.

Geneses 3:15 is the entire thread and theme of redemption in all of the Old and New Scripture. Do many Christians hear that now-a-days? If not, why not?

That's my view of Scripture, which helps scrub the Presbyterian, the Lutheran, the Calvinism, the Jesus only, the Pentecostals, and on and on out of Scripture about "us"...... and puts GOD as the focal of His story.
The Bible was never meant to be a do this and don't do that "my (little m) way" to get to heaven.
Nope.

And, we have a perfect teacher in all of this! This isn't my view. It's biblical at every turn if we read it all, and better understand the story....
Christ came to rebuke legalism (Pharisees) before there was a OT/NT BIble. He is the Scripture and when He was standing in front of the Pharisees (Scripture - "Bible" study guys) they knew Him not! That should give us pause!!! That story about God right there! Basically Jesus is telling the Scripture study dudes of that era... if you knew the story, you'd see me standing in front of me instead of conspiring against me, so that you can get back to your legalism and devout memorizing of Scripture verses.
I AM the Way, the Truth, and the Life.
They didn't get it. Legalists never do because "they" are the righteous in a legalistic hierarchy and they decide. They like that.
It poisons our faith however.

So, when Paul says submit to authority, is Paul saying "government" like the NKJ linguists inserted as a page holder? I say no. Remember, there was no commas and periods and paragraphs in Paul's day as he wrote it and the Greek text meaning doesn't mean earthly authority (government)..... Paul is entirely talking about submitting yourself to heavenly authority. Only.

Appreciate your question and well thought out input. This country was founded by religious people laboring for the "individual" freedom as bestowed by their Creator, who they said is the God of the Bible.

Some of us do the same. It's about the individual. It's always been about the individual. God's image bearer. Whether in the womb or on the streets.
And so we may know, Paul is writing the same. It's not about Rome. It's about the kingdom.

Blessings brother!
Mark

I see a lot of people worshiping trump not God these days

It was never about Trump.
For some of us.

Varied reasons

I wouldn't say Trump is in any way out spoken about the great society being here in earth, like the other side of the American aisle is.


Team A. says free the American individual to go do, and be, and build, and pray, <<<<<< 50 %

Team B. says that's fine; when we say, how we say, when we say. <<<<<<<< 50%

It's tough to reconcile these two teams in 2020.

[quote=Pafoxman]I think the Bible is clear.... God sets up and removes kings (Presidents) for his plan.
Daniel 2:21
Daniel 4:17
Psalms 75:5-7
Jeremiah 27:5
Proverbs 21:1
So my question is, IF Biden wins the presidency, and conservative Christians continue to claim fraud and say that Trump should have won, are they resisting the will of God? (Romans 13:1-5)
Some thing I’ve been thinking about, not looking to start an argument. I’ve seen a lot of Christians both before the election and now inferring that a Trump term is what God wants for America.... but we Don’t know that, do we? If God wants Trump to win I firmly believe Trump will win, but if Biden wins I also believe that is who God wants even though we may not understand his purposes. What we want, or think is best for us, is not always in line with God‘s plan.[/quot

You are badly misinterpreting those verses. We have a free will, God doesn't interfere in elections, why would he? This notion that God controls every little thing through his "will" is a modern notion that has made Christians apathetic. We have taken the word Sovereign and turned it into something it was never meant to be.

So its the will of "god" to put people like Idi Amin and Hitler in power? Seems like i remember people on here saying that was the work of the devil? I wish you folks would quit confusing me.

Jesus said to not cast your pearls before swine.

I don't see you casting many pearls, so that leaves me with one conclusion.

amspoker it cant be both ways. gods will when you like a king and the devils will if you dont.

All Im gonna say is this, its easy to blame God or the devil and harder to remember that just because something happens doesn't mean God or the devil did it.

Well, we do pray for you and everyone if that's ok?

It would seem you're staunchly opposed against any discussion of God, Bible, and similar as you repeatedly post on these types of threads.
Which is fine.
Just curious.
Are you the arbiter?
It'd be sorta like an ant-trapper weighing in on every trapping post.
Every one as they deem what is worthy.
And you're always asking about evil.
We can't answer 100% so please ask God these big picture questions.

We didn't invent the game.
We're just happy to be playing in it.
Like trapping

Blessings!
Mark

Hmmm...that kind of thinking would have us submitting to anything the enemy throws at us, claiming it's all God's will. I'm not saying whether God chose Biden to be our president or not, it just seems like a fatalistic mindset to think that way about everything.

Bingo!

So you putting a tree up this year Danny?

You keeping Christmas or Sol Invictus?

Maybe you don't know what the bible really says?

The idea of a Christmas tree came over 1000 years after Christmas replaced Saturnalia so that standard seems pointless to me.

I’ll put one up because I like cutting one down in my yard and I like the way they smell. Reason enough.

I love the smell of pine trees.
And muskrat fat.
And a wood stove.
On Christmas morning.

I used to get up early when we lived in MI on the lake, and get my traps checked and critters skinned and fleshed, before company arrived for dinner.

Sorry to have derailed the thread.

My take on the bible is that Jesus never involved himself in politics.

I appreciate reading others views on the topic

Digging this thread.

The Lord does not need anybody's permission to be sovereign, validation by deeply enlightened thinkers, or vain attempts to earn a dang thing. We are a mess, even the best of us. Have a good day.

It doesn't have to be either way, it is neither.

May just be fulfillment of prophecy. Brother against brother is part of that fulfillment. Just glad to know how the story ends.

Romans 13 is pretty clear on this subject...God establishes the governing authorities, and we are to obey them and pay our taxes, unless doing so would be sinful, of course. So yes, if Joe Biden is the next president, it's because God wanted him there.

JOHN 19 :11

These guys need to make a comeback, doing Gods will one sword stroke at a time.

More comfortable holding it that way after a long day of doing Gods will.

I would say that God makes use of means to accomplish His purposes. God can make use of a democratic election of representatives to accomplish his plan, or he can make use of legislatures and judges. He can make use of dictators, wars, evil men, and forces of nature to bring about exactly what he has planned. The Bible is full of examples of mankind taking their own independent and free activities, but all of it has worked to bring about the exact outcome that God has intended.

The American Revolution was a terribly illegal and wicked rebellion against a lawfully established ruling authority. Every one of the leaders of that revolution was guilty of treason and lawfully deserved to hanged by the neck until dead. Yet I am convinced the success of the American Revolution was an obvious miracle of God. No other way could a handful of raggedy, untrained, unequipped kids militarily defeat one of the most powerful world-wide empires history has ever known.

I know you are absolutely correct when you say, "If God wants Trump to win I firmly believe Trump will win, but if Biden wins I also believe that is who God wants even though we may not understand his purposes. What we want, or think is best for us, is not always in line with God‘s plan." You are positively correct in that. But, take that one step further.... If Biden wins through a fraudulent election, that is what God wanted to happen. If Trump wins by thwarting a fraudulent election through the means of the judicial and legislative branches of government, that is also what God wanted to happen. There's no way a few hundred million voters or a handful of judges and legislators can defeat and overcome God's plan. You would never hear God say, "Buggers! I tried to get Joe Biden elected, but that darn Trump guy and his followers figured out a way to beat me." You know that doesn't make any sense.

The only sure way I know to find out what God wants to happen is to wait and see what happens.

Right on, man! Put on the whole armor of God!

No need to apologize. Great grandpa's era that hounded, "We don't talk about politics or religion in this house!" as the family quit going to the alter, humbling themselves, and everybody began watching amusement on TV to "zone out," is being revisited. Did great grandpa know best? Nope.

The founders of America squabbled with much admiration amongst themselves about politics and religion! It was their underpinnings! What is our culture's underpinning? I have no idea. Do you? Do they?
I offer we've gained much at the expense of our souls as a nation. All sorts of wonderful things to bless us. All manner of technology. How's the suicide rate? How's the divorce rate? How's the porno view rate? How's the love one another and pray for your enemy rate?

Jesus came as the Messiah - the One promised - to fulfill the Scripture and the prophecies His Father Promised the woman and her husband in the garden in Genesis chapter 3. If you know the story plot, you see why Jesus came.

The religious zealots of that day, and certainly the unbelievers, didn't believe He was the Messiah. They were looking for a warrior type to help them defeat Rome! Instead, a Lamb of Judea? What?

They didn't know the story as had been written and foretold.
Do we? Same story. You don't need to be a preacher or a pastor or a priest to know it. Just read it.

And then Jesus went beyond as only Christ according to Scripture and prophecy could/would = He is Risen!
Game changer! He is the Genesis chapter 3 Messiah!
Like He said He was.
But not because He or the disciples "said" it (although valid).... "he did it" as written and prophesied over the whole course of Scripture.
And many came to believe.
Some still do.
And many do not.
There's no signing up in God's Kingdom by the point of a gun.
That's other places and other religions.
Or bad men using God's Son's name for their personal gain (how novel).

Jesus, and John the Baptist before Him, and Jesus' disciples after Him, all taught the same thing.
The Kingdom of God is at hand.
Look out your window brother.
The sun is up waiting for the Son.
It's a great day to be alive and Christ is on the throne at the right hand of the Father as the Spirit dwells here on earth in those who follow the Way.


Blessings,
Mark

This should help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O3qbhv0sVs

Its pretty obvious whats going on. Jupiter is upset that people refer to him now as mythology.

Juno is upset that birth control is so common.

Mars is pretty happy. Lots of war being waged. He IS upset though that so little credit is given to him.

Mercury is unhappy about travel restrictions

Neptune is mad he doesn't get credit for hurricanes anymore. Everything blamed on somebody named El Nino or something

Venus is jealous of all the attention actress's have been getting for the last hundred years or so.

Apollo is unhappy that he doesn't get any credit for all the advances in medicine. ( he turned the horrid covid 19 virus loose on mankind)

Diana is fit to be tied. Anti hunting/trapping/meat is rampant. She is pushing Jupiter to wreak even more confusion amongst the mortals.

Minerva still sits quietly inspiring scientists.

Ceres is unhappy. Modern agriculture has completely ignored her.

Vulcan can't believe machines have taken over his realm

Vesta is upset that so many children dont have any meaningful family or home

So until we return to proper veneration of the Gods, we will just have to keep dealing with problems. don't lose sight of the fact that Elysium is the reward to those who show proper respect and adulation to the Gods. We are being punished as a nation for turning our backs on them.

God allows people free will to do what they want.

Nothing confusing once one accepts that everything happens for a reason, in Gods terms, and we will/may never know the why, when, what for, reasons.

Joel Chapter 3 and then Zechariah chapter 14 and then Revelation toward the end has a wonderful summary of what happens to the goats.
And goat worshippers.

Solid prophecy to live by.

Blessings,
Mark

People are now saying, why vote at all? States are changing voting laws and procedures in the middle of the game.

We love you man!

Be still and know that God is God.

God gave us free will.

The left has lost their minds and are willing to do anything to destroy and remove our President Donald J. Trump! It has been an ungodly attack on our country and all Americans!

Did God "set up" Abraham Lincoln for assassination to remove him as President??? Ungodly people, evil people does evil!

Blasphemy!

God gave us free will, but he still orchestrates everything, and I mean everything, to his will. He has it planned out, and had it planned out before the world existed. In the scheme of things, the 2020 USA presidential election ain't that important.

13And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, a Man stood opposite him with His sword drawn in His hand. And Joshua went to Him and said to Him, “Are You for us or for our adversaries?”

14So He said, “No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come"

That still doesn't make the Israelites having bad kings or us having bad leaders God's will.
There's no need to say that "God wants" any less than ideal leaders. He allows them to rule because people make bad choices. And yes, God's overall plan will come to pass, IN SPITE of the fact that most people most of the time do not do his will and most things that happen on this earth are not his will.

We get in a sticky wicket when we, as humans, try and say too much about what God is doing, why He's doing it, or who He's doing it with.

In a word we have to be careful not to drift into..... humanism.
Which is, in the words of our esteemed Chancellor here at DTS, Charles Swindoll, the greatest heresy ever.
The statements usually start with;

I think.
I know.
What I would do.
This is how I'd do it.
I say.

He crafted and gave us a rational, reasoning, brain... so brain power must be ok, but we just need to stall our train on the tracks sometimes when it becomes our train and our tracks.

He has revealed;
His Word as the world = Creation.
His Word in the world = Jesus Christ
His Word for the world = Scripture

The rest we humbly sift through these ^^^^^ 3.

Blessings,
Mark

Thanks for responses. In 0P I raised the question not because I am certain about any of this. I believe there is a difference between the “perfect will” of God and the “permissive will” of God. Sin has consequences... if I’m an alcoholic and get liver cancer that is not God‘s perfect will for my life but my free choice came with consequences.
I guess the same could be said about a nation. A nation that walks away from God could get what they ask for so to speak. When the Jews crucified Christ they loudly proclaimed “His blood be on us and our children “
Anyway.....I am trying to sort out in my mind what I believe. It’s not always simple I find. I grew up in a conservative Mennonite home and am thankful for my heritage, however my beliefs are different today.

Religion and politics should never mix.

Paul appealed to Caesar, a political and legal authority.

Spoken like the first true Ana-Baptists in the 1500's.
They trusted God.
Not politicians.

Swiss or German heritage MsgRet?

Blessings,
Mark

Actually I'm Danish and Norwegian. Most human tragedy and wars have their sources in organized religion. We interpret our source document(Bible, Torah, or Koran) to suit our current agenda. I'm a spiritual person and I don't need others to define the parameters of my belief system.

Atheists are fighting the will of God.

Fear is the father of oppression.

Danes. Many think from the tribe of Dan, son of Jacob (Israel), son of Isaac, son of Abraham. The "Northern tribe of Israel." You might be Jewish!

And they did ransack those mean Romans in the Saxonlands, and could sure build some fine sea craft, that's for sure. You come from strong stock sir.
Your numbers on who's killing who aren't accurate though. Sounds like a Make Peace Not War bumper sticker. Not that "organized religion" hasn't done some killing. It has.
100 million killed during genicidal slaughter these last 150 years is hard to compete with, not to mention 85 million killed in WWI & II. Those are staggering numbers and religion had no part (other than the non-religious hating and killing the religious).

And you're correct, we are spiritual beings, but agenda is a secular, not a theological term.
Just helping with a bit of factual history.
Wouldn't want you trapping for beaver with no water in the vaccinity!

Blessings,
Mark

The doctor will see you now.

I was just trying to be more than an inch deep in the sea.

We are not Jewish, we evolved in Europe, a place our ancestors occupied for 400,000+ years.

Well, with that trajectory and timeline,

The Darwinism survival of the fittest should be kicking in right about........



Forgive me. Slow day in the trenches.

It already kicked in, that is why only white women are physically attractive.

Thankyou. You have made my point. Now I must leave and go skin muskrats.

Fighting the will of God comes very natural for us Christians. We have been doing it since the history of recorded time and to make sure that we continue to do it and get better at it we teach our children to do the same so this continues. Man's ego and grandiosity just can't let someone else call the shots even though their message may be better for them.

Bryce

Pulled this from the BBC.

Europeans, as I know you know, didn't come from Europe. They walked like the early American pioneers!
Oh and the 400,000 years is a few on the high side too.
DS, maybe you're from the tribe of Dan also? Or maybe from these arrows, and I don't know if those are even accurate, maybe you're Hittite?
Heck, from my mixed pedigree of English, German, Scandinavian, Scottish, French, mutt....
seemed my family ancestors liked just about any lass in the area.

Our Neanderthal ancestors resided in Europe for 400,000+ years. They (we) are the original inhabitants of Europe and it molded us into what we are right now. We are not desert dwellers.

I thought Neanderthals were said to be sprinters and about 50,000 years old?
You got an "older, older" cousin.

I come from a long line of trapper, hunter, gatherers. We were not Neanderthals.

Neanderthals were in Europe for "at least 400,000 years"

Homo Sapien/Neanderthal hybrids date back 50,000 years ago or so.

Of course we are, leave that blonde out in the sun for another 30 years hunting/gathering everyday and she would look more like the first pictures you posted.

Well said. If we are a secure in our skin and in our faith, maybe a bit of levity is ok too. Everyone is so darn uptight these days. I'm among terminal patients three days a week who smile as often as they can muster. In spite of.

Be joyous in the Lord and have a bit of humor in all of it.
Life is short. Eternity is long.

Blessings Bryce.
Sure wish I had me some good cranberry juice right about now.

Mark

I didn't end up being blonde, 6'4" with light colored eyes by evolving in the desert. We are people of the North, it's where we evolved and it is what made us.

Two years ago we did the ancestry. com for Christmas and did the comparisons. I am 94% northern European Norway the latest and Sweden earlier. I was also I was the highest level of Neanderthal of the 9 of us. The surprise however was 6% north African. I guess those Vikings brought back more than just "stuff" on their raids?

Bryce

According to the secular university archeologists, we all crawled outta the mud in the same region and it wasn't in the north.
Perhaps some couldn't stand the heat and others didn't like each other much. Fighting over girls or behemoths and such.

North African's are not black. They are Mediterranean, similar to Greeks. DNA has been ran on Pharos and other mummies, they are not "Africans" in the sense we typically think.

Spoils of war throughout history.
Got many a young boy to fight.
Even today.

EVERY human has some african dna

We all have different levels of archaic ancestry, Sub Saharan Africans have archaic DNA Europeans do not, if we all came out of Africa we should all have that same archaic DNA.

We're all from Noah, through Adam and Eve, unless there was a cave God didn't make and didn't know about.
I wish DNA could tell us if we're from Shem, Ham, or Japheth but one things for sure.....

we're all related!
Howdy cousins.

Blessings from Texas,
Mark

Did God create Neanderthals as well? Did they also come from Adam and Eve?

LOL. Yes, but until then Donna must gather.

like it or not, they have been entwined forever...not likely to change anytime soon.

All I have to go on (as all the proof which I place faith upon) is Genesis 1:26-27. God made us in His image (in the Hebrew the word means "characteristics") but it doesn't give a physical description.

Donna is still hunting and gathering. I think she (Polish = tribes of "slavs;" called slaves) came from folks that your ancestors may have raided and stole and called them by that name so I'd stay back at least 50 paces or more when you see her. She's deadly with bow and pistol.

Slavs was the name given by the Greeks. The only reason the Viking of the Northmen is so engrained in our history is because they preyed on the Popes churches. Northmen were largely hunters, fishermen, explorers and traders.

I was from the Celts and we feared you guys!!!!!
but hey, you liked how our lasses sang pretty.
And YES, I admit it. I get mushy when I hear O' Danny boy, hear 'dem pipes, and see a man in a kilt.

Every time a group of Northmen ventured down south the pretty girls just couldn't help themselves, they went head over heels for those good looking fellows and jumped straight into their boats, this is why the Nordic people are the best looking people on the planet.

Pretty sure God can get who he wants elected without cheating.

So no.

Stand up for what is right.

Well y'all were forever starting trouble with other civilizations!
Why couldn't you just have fought amongst yourselves like regular people seem to do!!

That's why the girls jumped in your boat. You weren't good looking.
Just looked content is all.

Ladies value peace and tranquility.

You are the one who says you are descended from Jews, they completely wiped out other civilizations, all the Northmen did was hit a few priest with axes.

As far as ladies valuing peace and tranquility... find me one of those under 30 and ill give you a finders fee.

I'm not Jewish. That's maybe msg. Just kidding msg!!!!
Who really knows.
I don't really care so I have a bit of fun with it.
We came from Noah's loins.
We all did.
Cuz.


Gotta run.
Be safe.
Blessings!
Mark

There is fear and superstition today that is troubling.

You hit that nail on the head MsgRet.
Bing-Bang

I remember Michelle saying (paraphrased): "Barack knows we have to change our history, change our traditions...

Perhaps you, like we, are the traditionalists who Fear the Lord MsgRet. Like our nation's first President did. Fervently.

Perhaps you've seen General Washington's personal Bible that accompanied him into every battle at his estate museum in Mt. Vernon?
I have, and the hand written notes are incredibly deep-thinking and revering to God. He was a devout Christian man.
Much like Habakkuk however, Washington wrote often asking "Why God seemed to have abandoned the righteous in times of trouble?"

We could use another George Washington right about now.
So we trust, you'll extend those who are traditionalists a bit of grace as we pray for our nation and stand as our 1st President did: For individual liberty which comes from God.




Blessings,
Mark

If you can find a way to separate politics from any and all aspects of our lives let me know. Politics comes from the Greek (politico) which means "of the people" so it is in our nature to be political even with ourselves, families and beyond. Politics by nature is not a bad thing it is how we use this basic behavior of man. When reading the scriptures the ministry of Jesus for his 3 year ministry was almost all about politics at the street level. That is how he could communicate with those that were upset that he was not going to restore the geographical kingdom of Israel, but was ministering about the spiritual kingdome.

Bryce

I pray nightly that our Individual Freedom still has a real purpose for God's Will. (I believe that is why He allowed a ragtag "army" of farmers and shopkeepers to defeat the world's Superpower a couple centuries ago).

If our Freedom still has such a purpose, we will be okay.

if not, we're screwed. (but we did it to ourselves.)

I love Christians!

Things work out their way, it's the will of God.

Things go the other way, it's the work of Satan.

Such convenient beliefs.

Jim

Mute point as Christians believe in what God wants and against what satan wants

laugh all you want, Jimmy...you can mock me. I'll wear that PROUDLY!

love you, man! (praying for you).

Just helps us make it to Heaven.

I think Christians have an appreciation for the folks who came over here fleeing religious persecution. I think we have an appreciation for the emphasis our founders and framers put on the guiding hand of God in our affairs. We have an appreciation for our holiday traditions like Thanksgiving and Christmas. We hate to see those things casually tossed aside.

When Barack Obama took office in his first term there was a palpable sense of apprehension within the Christian community about the man and his mission. Turns out that apprehension was well founded.

Their is a God as their is a devil but God let's us chose are own path . I have lived a long life and I know their is a God or I wouldnt be hear now I've faced death many times and been busted up pretty bad on several occasions so I tell it this way all my life I didn't believe in God but God has always believed in me and now in my older age I m very great full that he has The Bible is I very interesting book written thousands of years ago but it is like it was written for each reader not long ago so I believe that their are messages in it for everyone and maybe of the end of times or a new beginning

James,

You're getting a mite crusty about the rebuttals of the faithful lately.
You know, General Washington was a pillar of our nation and we respect his heritage and efforts.
Would you tear down his stature, or just smash the statues of him asking the Lord in prayer?
I personally revere the entire man.

Washington was the ranking General yet he humbled himself (and thought it an honor and blessing to do so) in the presence of the Almighty, as Washington so often called his Maker.

Well, most afroamericans come from slave ancestors. They didn't flee persecution of their religious beliefs. They were chained to the floor of slave ships and sold into servitude to white people who justified the institution using bible verses. I am conservative but I understand the argument. When lectured on the will of God this and the will of God that I give pause. Is the Bible once again a document of convenience?

Mark, would you tear down Buddha's statue, or just smash the statues of him meditating in the lotus position?

Jim

Are you talking about men or God? God or men?
If you're attempting to make a case against God by inserting the workings of men, that's been tried to death.
Literally.

Blessings,
Mark

Plus, Washington didn't instruct his troops to rape the women in captured Loyalist towns.

Jim

I have no impulse to tear down any Buddhist pagan statue.

I was just flipping your wife-beating question around on you, Mark.

Jim

Now, you lost me.

I disagree with that one. I've seen some very beautiful dark skinned ladys.

James, you ok?

Bingo! Nor do I have any impulse to smash Washington's statues.

Jim

This needs to be said James, but in fairness, this isn’t something unique to Christianity. What would belief systems be good for if they couldn’t make us feel like some higher power agrees with us? Nothing more powerful than a group of men who believe god (pick any) is on their side.

for the MOST part, they were sold INTO slavery by African blacks who conquered them in tribal warfare.

Wrong thread.

Jim

James, you ok?

That's an interesting twist of American history.

He's been watching CNN. Between he and James, the two of them are rambling tonight. Collaboration men. Collaboration.

Its not a twist. It's the elephant in the room. We are at a crossroads in our history. It's time to get real. Too much information is available and more people have a voice.....different kinds of people. Standing in the doorway gripping our bibles won't help. Even Jesus spent more time with the beggars, thieves, prostitutes, and tax collectors. Not the priests and scribes. We ALL need to heal our souls and help others even if they have different beliefs. No, I don't watch CNN......or Fox. The media reminds me of that guy in a bar who instigates a fight and then leaves.

Did you get the vaccine shot? Because your history is wrong
Only 5% of slaves that were sold( out of Africa by Africans) came to the colonies
More have immigrated here. Many times more

Regardless your point stands that men can BELIEVE they are doing the right thing. That god is on their side. They are often judged very harshly by others who aren’t there in the moment, under the same spell of belief.

Rational thought can be corrected, it evolves, accepts or rejects new information as it is received.

Beliefs are often chiseled in granite from the outset. Handed down through the ages as something unalterable.

Which one is more in the service of truth?

You're twisting his words. He never said (that I saw) that most African slaves were sold in the American colonies.

Jim

Ok.....I'll change the words from MOST to MANY. I realize how difficult it is to discuss Americans origonal sin. Does it matter how many?

Who says God interferes with anything we do here? He gave everyone the freedom of choice, im gonna have to say hes leaving it up to us to do whats right or not and we will have to deal with the consequences of letting bad people into power.

I think you were right the first time. I think more African Americans can trace their roots to slavery than to immigrants.

Jim

James, You're course tonight. Always right too I see, which is OK, but it's a bit over the tipsy top.
Just saying

I just spent all the time I can afford looking for the answer to the question, and can't find it. So it will have to be my fallible memory against whatever you've got for a source.

Jim

perhaps. but there are those who INSIST that [current] "rational thought' must be obeyed. is THAT rational, when "rational thought" evolves. and is often [eventually] proven wrong?

like it or not (believe it or not)...there ARE some universal "truths".

It’s not rational thought if it isn’t open to criticism and update. We’re comparing thoughts to feelings. They are two different things.

Coos says: "It’s not rational thought if it isn’t open to criticism"


is "global warming" open to criticism?

how about mandatory mask wearing?

Be my guest. Lots of good arguments against the idea that we’re responsible for the current change of climate. Get after it.

https://www.investors.com/politics/...admits-real-motive-behind-warming-scare/

Back to the question of whether most African Americans descend from slaves, it's relevant to point out that at various periods in our history (a 1790 act and a 1924 act that wasn't rescinded until 1965) black people (along with Asians and other races) were excluded from immigrating--it was whites only.

Jim

People suck in general, James, no need to single any one group out. The entire idea behind limited government is to reduce the impact you have on me and I on you. The idea is sound even if its implementation hasn't been.

Did some fact checking from various credible sources: today roughly 9% of blacks are newer immigrants not of sla e ancesters. That doesn't mean that 91% are because many migrated from Cuba, Brazil, Jamaica etc from slave ancestry. Numbers, statistics, trends etc does not cover up or cloud the crime. Some people on here in another blog even pointed out that there were white slaves from Europe. Actually they were indentured servants. When they served their time they were freed and could own land. That's a pretty far cry from black slavery. I can't believe how we try so hard to make our history more palatable.

It happened alright. By god fearing christians. They enslaved the offspring of Ham and did their best to treat their slaves in the proper manor according to gods law as written in their king james bibles.

That IS a fact.

What is perceived today as gods will might change tomorrow.

I dont think prayer is going to bring back voter confidence in U.S. elections.

It is easier to focus our eyes on past sins than stare at 30 million humans trafficked in the world each year, and 300,000 in Texas alone. Many are indentured, but too many are sexually trafficked. And so it goes for the orphan, the widow, and the aliens.
We are NOW a world where 35% of American males view porn monthly, kids as young as 8 view it weekly, and drug use (Rx and illegal) has never been higher. We are addicted as never before to things that bring us hurt, shame, guilt, misery, and still...... we blame the other person.

As some clamor for sins of the past to be rectified, monies to be sent to X, Y, & Z, and people become prideful and are happy to lie and cheat to get ahead of others, in whatever line pays the best and morals be danged..... we're gonna look up stats from the 4 centuries ago? Really?

If we figure our forefathers sinned, then what? What does that accomplish?
Who sins today is most relevant to the epidemic suicides, foster kids, abortions, human smuggling, and all that people do right now as people blame other people's doorsteps but heap carnage upon theirs in the name of "I deserve it."

Sponsor someone else's child today. There is great need. Adopt the orphans. They are everywhere among us. Teach truth to your families.
And stop looking for everyone else to pay for your sinful habits as they exist.
Impoverished fine. Cheat, get out of line.
1/2 the people at the food bank here are flat out cheats. They steal not from me, but from their fellow neighbors. Who do I report them to as they steal from the storehouse? No one does anything, as the kids who have nothing, watch the adults who laughs as they steal the kid's food. Please fight for these victims. We see them and they are not in any way associated with 1619!

Rant over. People are blind to misery and proud of the cheaters and it's not the America I remember. And it's not the Christians (most about 25-35) I see as the problem. They, in many ways, are this nation's help. They are serving, sleeves rolled up and busting butt to help their fellow man.
It's the 35-50 year old (or older) who say they are now owed everything ahead of even kids! Adults cutting kids off in line as you watch. 1619? Give me a break. They didn't even have Super Bowl human sex day parties in 1619. America has them now.
Well, now rant over.

Come and minister with us and then let's talk James. We need you as soon as you can get here.

Blessings,
Mark

Right on Mark. I agree. One crisis at a time please. Spending a lot of time discussing unpleasant history does not mean we are blind to the present. Human trafficking is the fastest growing criminal enterprise in the world. It's harder to track down (much less prosecute) than illegal drugs.

I'm not selfless enough to do ministry or charitable work, but I respect those who do, provided they furnish actual physical help as opposed to just spiritual.

Jim

Recognizing the wrongs our ancestors did means we wont repeat them.

I have seen those "trafficked girls" many many times both here and abroad. Never saw any that could not have just walked away. They come from abusive homes and have drug addiction problems. The guy taking their money is giving them dope.

The answer to "trafficking" is legal brothels. Prostitution is never going away. If you really want to minimize the heartache legalization is the way to do it.


If you want to reduce the run away drug addicted girls from allowing them selves to be "trafficked", its time to go hard after creepy step dads, and uncles.

Spoken as a true arm-chair quarterback. I wasn't too busy today with Hospice care so I helped at the Luke's Food Pantry here in Dallas. It's terrible the way people treat the young and impoverished.

Tell ya what; send me a list James of what we should do and as a true soldier on the front lines, I'll follow your advice from the arm chair.

You don't want me telling a 10 year old abuse victim that God at least loves them as we call the authorities to begin the mess ahead?
Hard day every day watching people who claim 1619!!!!!! scam their way in the room.
You have no idea of the trenches sir, with all due respect.

You're probably right. I do have respect, as I said.

Jim

And trust me, as Christians, we work hard as often as we can to help who we can, with what we have, where we are.

I highly urge you to knock a few prejudicial barnacles off your ship's heart and lend a hand anywhere.
The water's fine and there is great need.

And while there's been creeps in all professions, in all walks and faiths of life who have proceeded us, we're not them.

They may write about us after we're long gone, so we hope we bring honor and dignity to all who we help.
We're not perfect this side of Sheol, but we're giving it a go.

Good night and blessings,
My prayers will remain constant.
Early start with PPE gear on in the morning.
Mark

DS,
I thought of ya today when I came across this during my reading.
We all are cousins and scientists only haggle over did man being in Mesopotamia, Africa, or now evidence is suggesting Israel's Fertile Crescent.
Hey cuz!



References should appear in the pic.
This Scientific American information is no small pic-i-nic basket either. Book is thick thick!

I highly suspect that region is where modern man evolved, somewhere around the Mediterranean like Turkey is likely. Lot's of natural grain (wheat) ample fish/access to the ocean for both food and travel. Game is plentiful with both plains and mountains meeting the sea. It makes a lot more sense to me genetically that we evolved somewhere in the middle east and went out from there which is why we have different archaic DNA in Europe and Africa, if we walked out of Africa we should all have the archaic DNA Sub-Saharan Africans do.

It lists the 3 earliest dated human cultures as of 2013 discovery as;

* The Syro-African Rift
* The Olduai Gorge in east Africa
* The Ubeidiya in the Jordan Valley, south of the Sea of Galilee

Scholars....

Pfffft....

Man didn't evolve anywhere

Well from the garden of Eden they walked that is.
Speculation is that original garden's location is open for discussion because the Euphrates and Tigris rivers may have moved a bit over the time span but they know the general area. The earliest human texts, other than the Hebrew writings, originated in Mesopotamia, and significantly earlier than that in Egypt.

And the earth is only 6,000 years old. And the more you scoff at Scholars (and the laymen who follow them) the more converts I bet you will get... it seems like a real promising strategy.

I actually think it is a strategy, when you scoff or belittle others they have a negative reaction, this causes discomfort for yourself, not conversions. With this discomfort fresh in your mind you go back to church were you are encouraged and shown love, then you are sent back out to receive more criticism and rejection and the cycle repeats, you are given comfort in church and pain from the world at large, this helps solidify your opinion of those who disagree with you and allows you to dismiss them with a simple "pffft".

I couldn't of come up with a better brainwashing strategy in 100 years.

Oh, I've heard professor speak VERY plainly about the Jew is - even more so, with the rich history and writings of the Jewish culture - supposed to feel appreciation in their heart for God, who led their ancestors out of Egypt 3500 years ago... and do not.
I guess they get a special sermon - as a holy nation descendent who didn't Fear the Lord (reverence and obey) - at the Mercy Seat.

ummmm....didn't you cheat yourself through school?

seems maybe someone ELSE "scoffs" at scholars....

We'll extend grace as best we can as man tries to find answers to each and every thing. It's our nature. To answer all things. Science and archeology and anthropology work often now with theologians but the myth remains they are at odds. They aren't. Top profs here, world scholars work alongside many secularists hand in hand, as they seek more answers tomorrow. Facts and old archeology sites are awesome and I almost went that route many moons ago.

I'd say, in this top 5 library in the theological world there are resources I can come up with that paint a very solid picture of the last 4200 years but prior to that the certainty must be humble at best. In the last 50 years great works have been submitted, reviewed, and consensus reached by many for W. F. Albright, C. H. Gordon, and Edward Thiele, so we can say fairly confidently Abraham was born in 2166 BC and Isaac was born to him in 2066 BC, and Israel came out from Egypt's bondage in 1446 BC and wandered until 966 BC. Earlier than that, we walk slowly IMO.

Wisdom is saying you don't know everything according to Solomon, yet we seek more answers tomorrow about our world around us.

Blessings,
Mark

I cheated my way through high school, somewhere I was compelled by force to be. That does not mean I was unwilling to learn or scoffed at those teaching, I just refused to participate in something I was compelled to do through force.

I didnt cheat in school. Just got tired of being expected to be a tape recorder. No thinking allowed. Repeat back verbatim whatever the text book or teacher said and get an A. Just aint never been my way. So I focused on working instead. Still dont regret it. Now I just learn what I need to or what interests me for some reason. I think trying to get every high schooler to enter college is a mistake. People whose nature fits a college curriculum dont need to be talked into it.

We need MANY more who have this type of perspective doing the teaching and training sir!