Petr

Folks Iet Petr on here in order for y'all to have the opportunity to discuss civilly with someone who doesn't agree with what we do. There's no need to be mean and nasty. If you can't make your point politely, then keep your yaps shut. He surely hasn't responded with the bad treatment you all have given him. Behave yourselves or be gone. This can be a great learning experience.

I remember your idea about this , and was hoping you would .

The ability to learn how to reason with mature persuasion and facts , honed sharper, by trappers and outdoorsmen, is always good .

It shows the maturity to handle anything with perseverance and logic.

Thank you, Mr Paul.

He must stay up late if he's in Russia. At least 7 hours ahead of us in time zones.

Maybe he has a super fast connection

An anti of any form + trappers seems to always just turn pretty childish pretty quickly 8/10 it seems

If we can’t discuss this in a civil manner what separates us for the antis

I tried to make a civil post to the topic but it was taken down. I wish I could have posted but oh well

Thank you Mr. Dobbins for taking it down. That big pile of dead foxes photo was too disgusting to allow.

Let's start this all over again, in a much better attitude folks!

I would certainly be up for a civil respectful discussion with an intelligent well spoken individual who supported animal rights and was opposed to trapping and animal use in general. But when an individual's introductory comments include that they know for sure what's going to happen to someone in a future life, that's a big red flag and I don't have any desire to invest any time and effort.

Those were coyotes, not foxes. Coyotes are a huge problem for beef and sheep farmers.

X2 bad things happen to everyone, not just trappers.

Those were coyotes.


Petr, my question is this. Prior to us discussing or attempting to see your side of the argument. Are you willing to be open minded and see the conservationist and wildlife management side of the discussion?

Take care.

Petr I’m sorry media has brain washed you! Trapping is literally what built North America if you can’t accept our heritage I’m sorry that’s what we do here. I have seen some nasty mangy yotes that we’re thankfully taken out of the population because of they weren’t it would be bad you don’t see what we trappers see we see animals that are skinny, mangy, and half dead. Sometimes it’s better to take the weak ones out so the rest of the population can strive. We have strict regulations as trappers that we abide by. We have 24 hour check times. Last season even when I was sick I was checking my traps! I don’t believe in the hippie Mother Earth stuff but I believe God put the animals on the earth for a reason and that he put us on the earth for a reason so that we will take care of what he gave us!
God bless
Kytrapper2005

I’d love to share a conversation stand point! Conservation is what I want do do someday!

What else can happen in 2020?

Before Adam met Eve was he a trapper?

Just a question .The country you call home is one of the largest buyers of fur in the world. Are you protesting that fact over there?

What did i miss this time?

OK I just have to ask are you even in the slightest interested in changing your thought process? Because honestly if this is going to be one of these deals where an immovable object meets an unrelenting force then it's kinda a waste if everyone's time.and I'm not trying to be rude but it's just the truth

Petr you can thank Mr. Dobbins by having an open mind
Most of the guys on here are used to closed minded anti trappers that only throw insults and don’t have a real understanding of nature . Most trappers help maintain the balance of nature by keeping the predator population in check so they don’t kill all the prey species then stave to death themselves
A trapper isn’t committing murder anymore then a coyote is when it kills a baby deer as it is coming out of the mother’s womb . The difference is the death we provide is quick and painless and what you would call humane unlike the cruelty that Mother Nature gives to all creature that grow old and are eaten while there still alive
So before you call us murderers remember that most trappers have spent more time in the wilds than the average 20 men combined and therefore have been educated by nature for more than you could possibly Imagine

Good point I ain’t wasting my time on a hard headed goat. I got plenty of those at the barn. If you have a open mind and want to hear our side make a post asking us. If not I don’t know why you’d hang out on here

Good point. How many people would go hungry, and be driven into poverty if the fur and meat trade was stopped.

Fur is also very environmentally friendly, unlike synthetic materials that are very damaging to the environment since they are produced with petroleum products.

Exactly isn’t plastic what these latte drinking, tofu eatin hippies don’t want? Remember the whole plastic straw save the turtles mumbo jumbo? Yet they wear plastic fur!

It's just Natural to use A gift/ talent given to me by Yaweh

Also the Creator

Petr I would like to ask you when you look in a mirror what do you see? This is a serious question. Do you notice the placement of your eyes? Now when you see a rabbit or deer are their eyes like yours in the front of their face or are they on the sides? When you see a sparrow or pidgin are their eyes on the side of their heads or in front like a hawk or an owl. There is a reason for the different placement of different animals eyes. It is because of what we eat. By that I mean some animals eat grass and seeds their eyes are on the side of their heads so they can see almost 360 degrees around them and be able to see anything that is coming at them. Maybe a cat or fox or a lion or leopard or a wolf. For you see all the animals that eat plants have their eyes on the side of their heads
And the animals that eat other animals have their eyes in the front of their heads. This is just one of thousands of examples of how nature has shaped the animals to fit in their place and do what they were meant to do. Is a lion cruel when it catches a zebra? If there were no lions or leopards would the zebras continue to bear young and over populate the grasslands and eat every blade of grass? Yes they would, with the result being starvation which is probably the cruelest way to die of all . This is just a little bit of something to think about.

I almost swallowed my gums when I read That one! Excellent!

Petr, I hope you are being open minded because I'm sure most of us will be happy to discuss these issues with you.

There are many many pros to conservation which include hunting fishing and trapping. There's no bigger group of conservationists than hunters trappers and fishermen.

Trappers are vital for wildlife control both in the wild and in populated areas.

Good things happen to me! I wake up in the morning I live in a great country with the best gosh dang president in the world! I don’t believe in Gaia or Mother Earth or tofu or marijuana or any of that hippie stuff. I do believe in God and the fact he put us on th earth to preserve his most wonderful creation!! If there weren’t trappers mange and starvation would kill the coyotes. It’s not like Bambi where everything lives in harmony. In the real world Bambi may have been eaten by predators. That’s where we trappers come in! We keep the predators in check! We see things that are nasty! Bad mange, starvation, animals dying because of those reasons! I don’t stand for cruelty none on here do! But we aren’t cruel we have to buy licenses, we have check times, so when we’re sick we are checking traps when it’s snowing, raining, what ever we are checking traps. We have regulations believe me! I hope you’ll have a open mind and read this!

God bless
Kytrapper2005

Petr, it’s simple biology. Nothing on this planet, including you, can live without the death of something else. Folks on these forums actually live closer to the earth and understand it better than most.

Is he going to talk or answer any of these questions? Get his point or points across or are we just hollering down the well?

If Savell's picture was too disturbing to to Petr, he/she best not google Phil Brown's fox catch pictures. How many innocent bunnies you figure Phil has saved in the last several years?

Well, I never caught a pile of fox, so I should be safe.
That said, I don't want to risk my track record on avoiding censor, either, so will play it safe.
Welcome to Trapperman!

2020 is full of surprises!
After his/her opening statement, im not even going to try to make him/her understand us.

Hi Petr always nice to exchange with a Russian. I was fortunate enough to live in South wester Moscow (Yesenavo) years ago.

Which region do you live?


You mention mother earth. I feel that many trappers are staunch conservationist. Humans are just as much part of the ecosystem as a wolf. We all have our place and are managed accordingly.

One thing I appreciate about fur is that it's a natural, renewable resource unlike the petro chemicals that make up so much of our clothing.

AV, now that's a humane death! We could all be so fortunate when it's our time!

Apparently i missed something,lol!..Nope, just saw it...Oh My!

Very humane indeed! That animal felt nothing! That’s what we as trappers want

I try. "We" all deserve a last supper.

Petr are all of your clothes 100% natural with zero synthetic or plastic materials whatsoever? Have you considered the damage done to your beloved "gaia" because of your contribution to pollution by purchasing such items. I submit unless all, ALL, of your clothing is made by your hands of plant material, then your hands are just as guilty as you claim ours to be. Even the buttons had better be wooden and no zippers or polyester.

If you believe in karma, it comes to all. I do not believe in such nonsense but to each their own.

GOD help you petr

I am not saying there isn't Karma

if you are mean to people how could you expect that they would be nice to you back.

however if your life experience grows a bit you will find people who were just genuinely nice to everyone yet , are plagued by bad health and die to soon from some awful disease or some accident. While others who are truly awful people live a long life.

my next door neighbor Matt , was probably the nicest guy you could meet he did great things for the kids of the town , funded all sorts of sports stuff , he wasn't any sort of rich guy by any means he was a lineman for the power company. worked all week then worked to improve the lives of kids in town. Matt died from ALS you couldn't find a much worse way to go , trapped in your failing body mind still fully function unable to communicate after a while. by the way Matt didn't hunt or trap now maybe your going to say because be bought cow hide baseball gloves for youth ball. or worked the chicken barque fund raiser every year for the sports boosters . that is why he died from an awful debilitating disease over almost 3 years.

trappers do not torture animals , we seek to dispatch them in the most efficient and humane way. It works against our interest to do anything but.

in your reasoning it would seem any person who uses any animal product , any meat , any leather , or any other animal product including things found in things like multi vitamins. the lard in a pie crust. the whey protein in your bread. should suffer from the karma you speak of.

you should stop and think how many dead animals are you responsible for. what do you wear for clothing not animal products surely , must be synthetic , made from oil , you play a role by purchasing oil clothing in all the deaths of animals from the oil spills , ground contamination , the dolphins killed , the dead fish.

maybe you only eat vegan and wear natural fiber clothing , walk everywhere you go in hemp rope sandals the harvesting equipment kills thousands of small rodents

trappers in the USA harvest animals for their fur and some for their meat

trappers harvest the animals that are excess to the environment if coyotes are let to get to go in great excess they will over populate , eat all the available prey and move into the city and start eating cats and dogs , as well as attacking people. when they get to excess often it is disease that controls the numbers k9 parvo , rabies , distemper or other diseases. it is not uncommon when they get into excess like they are in parts of California that they attack people and then the police shoot them.
if they get into excess in farming and ranching areas the government will use poison to kill the coyotes.
in all of these the coyotes die but are not used. in many of them they die in quite awful ways over days or weeks.

Raccoons when the population gets high , farmers need them gone when they start getting into animal feed and chicken coops. you can't have the organic free range chicken eggs with out getting the predator population down.
when the raccoon population swells distemper , parvo , and rabies thin the numbers , when this happens you find Raccoons wandering confused in the day falling over , going around in circles , so thin you can see the ribs.

so say you only eat tofu , wear 100% cotton or linen clothing

how many beaver were killed to keep the land the beans were grown on from flooding and ruining the crop sure your responsibility in this is tiny fraction of that beaver

how many Wood chuck or as my grandpa called them bean thieves were killed to bring you tofu.

even if your hand doesn't pull the trigger on the dispatch you are responsible for your wild life killing footprint

hey as long as we are talking about foot prints , you probably worry about your carbon foot print , fur is very carbon friendly incredibly warm , less heat needed , very little fossil fuels used in processing and transporting the fur. the fur-bearer would have reached a point excess , died from starvation or disease , the rotted.
harvested fur is turned into very war garments that last often decades , you don't get that kind of life from oil clothing. my grandmother is 92 and still wears the mink coat she bought with the money saved from quitting smoking when the price of a pack went up to a quarter.

Mother nature is a cruel mother through evolution the animals that can out reproduce others carry on the blood line , when they grow to excess they die from disease or starvation.


managed wildlife populations don't reach excess , disease is limited , the animals don't exceed the carring capacity of the land. the land stays usable for crops and timber . a managed habitat is a healthy habitat , trees grow , wildlife is healthier.

you could take it spiritual

Jesus ate fish and meat
while Mohammad didn't eat a lot of meat there is indication he did eat some.
while the Jewish faith limited what meats were eaten for reasons of food safety meat was a regular part of the diet.

trappers just don't hide the truth and put their head in the sand about what really happens in the world and life , sometimes things get messy , but that is life.

He says with no sarcasm at all none zilch none whatsoever

I guess anti trappers are welcome now.

You have a problem with that? You really don't need to be here. Get your own site and run it the way you wish.

Sorry Paul, I meant no harm with that meme. It popped in my head and I thought others would find it funny.
Its just that rule #4 above (yes, I know they are your rules) has always been strictly followed, so this is just different.
Again, I'm glad to be here and didn't mean to offend.

I do offer exceptions to a rule once in awhile. I recall during the last election I gave a one day exception to the no politics rule. It happens, but not frequently.

Going with your apparent belief system, people are clearly part of the Earth Mother, Gaia's creation, as much as any animal. Animals use the resources Gaia provides to survive as do people. A rabbit is no more dead if a person kills it then a fox. The only difference is that the rabbit is less likely to suffer before dying when killed by a human. Everything that dies is used by other parts of nature. Life comes from death. A dead fox in the woods is eaten by birds, other mammals, insects, bacteria and fungus. Eventually all physical parts of it will be something else. A fox taken by a trapper provides useful fur for a time for people, but all of it will also eventually be reborn as something else. There is no true waste. Everything is connected. Everything physical will eventually be something else.

A person catching catching an animal to use is as completely natural as fox catching an animal to use. There is no real difference.

Keith

Petr, I believe that the animals offer themselves to me as a reward for my efforts. I must learn about these animals and their habits, so that I am able to catch them. This takes several years of struggle and perseverance, usually in the harshest conditions of winter. I seek to take animals when their fur is at its most prime and beautiful, and I seek to take them quickly so that the fur is not damaged. I do not want them to suffer or distress themselves as this causes damage to the fur. After I have them in my care, I admire them and their design as being perfected for the lives they have lived. I treat them well, carefully preserving them so that their beauty continues and gives life and warmth to others in the garments made from them. I know that through my actions, I help maintain a balance in nature. If there are too many of a species in a given area, disease or starvation will kill many instead of the few I take. Disease and starvation do not care if one is young or old, they inflict all they touch, and this is chaos. Gaia is the daughter of Chaos, but she brought order and balance. Those that live according to the principles of balance and order must seek to preserve that order and balance or return back to chaos. The trapper lives and acts to ensure that the earth and the creatures sustained by the earth are not destroyed by chaos. I hope this helps you to understand the deepest respect and admiration that trappers have for the animals they pursue and the lives they take. While there are many differing religious or spiritual views among trappers, we embrace order and balance, and we see our actions as preserving that balance and order.

Petr doesn't talk much.
I'll be honest. I don't harvest animals like I used to. I've turned kinda soft about it but I do still understand the need to control the populations. And, I still like a good beef steak, still like to make my own sausages, eat chicken, fish, and wear leather coats and boots and shoes. I'm sure every anti is a hypocrite when it comes to food and clothing.

Maybe y'all have overwhelmed him.

I dont think he was really wanting to discuss anything. He just wanted to try to get people to thinking that if they have any set back or illnesses thats its because of the animals they have trapped or killed. Petr will die the same as all of us will thats life. People live People die. Sometimes its easier to blame someone or something then its is to except the ways of life.

Or he posted just before nighty night time.

Critical thinking is a skill our culture has tossed to the trash heap as in, "we don't need no stinkin' critical thinking." Good to have you on here Petr. Perhaps we can start with something the Hellenists (Greeks) considered worthy even before the days of Plato and Aristotle. Many may not know it, but we are typically Aristotelian (383-320 BC) in our western methods of pondering. Say what? We were Americans! Well, we are American but we're taught to think Aristotle philosophy (we have a LOT of philosophers on TMan!). Aristotle's methodology in simple form is that all truth - ALL truth - is a summation of the little parts that make it up. Logic. The word logos means word in Greek. But logic (Greek) is taking this thing + this thing + this thing = truth. The word is over 2400 years old.

Ex. We might say, a fox eats a rabbit. A fox can run down a rabbit. A fox has eyes on the side of its head (saw that analogy on this thread) and a rabbit has eyes on the side of its head. A fox is more likely to be healthy if he eats rabbits.... all adds up to the FACT OF TRUTH.... we would say the Greek word = LOGIC = that a fox is a predator who's supposed to eat rabbits. See, we found truth! Aristotle. From 2400 years ago! That's how we think. We don't even realize it. They teach environmental science or some such nonsense in school today to make sure we stay away from the ability to use our brains in logic thinking (my opinion). The Scottish renamed "logic" 400 years ago to call it = "common sense." Every heard that one? Thank a Scotsman. In other words (it was coined and used by theologians actually).... if YOU don't believe like I DO... you have NO COMMON (everybody does it but you) SENSE (logic). I have it. You don't. You're ignorant. Settles it! I'm smart. You're dumb. Any questions you would have for me as the only common sense holder in the room? Gotta love those Scots! I think we still use the Scottish way of describing stuff every now and again, don't we?

But how would we "know" this is absolute truth? As in perfect? We in the Westernized Aristotle fashion might, "Because the facts say so! They add up like Aristotle says = perfect.
But are they? How would we know? Plato disagreed with Aristotle. The Eastern cultures of our world today are not Aristotelian. They are Plutonian. They don't use "logic" like we do. They think all things come from "above" like Plato did.... so they are usually pantheistic. All things are from around us and we are from all things. It's deep stuff to us in the West because we think they're smoking something. But they think we're easily swayed by our "logic." Logic, Easterns say truth has to be more than just little pieces added up, because sometimes the pieces are faulty.... or most common, ALL the pieces may not be known. They may have something on that last part of their Platonian logic..

All fascinating really.
I just suggest we get off our Aristotle bench every now and again and realize those who argued against "arrogance" in the art of philosophical reasoning in Ancient Greece, during the time of Plato and Aristotle, abhorred what they called: "arrogance." They considered the arrogance as they were known as "outcasts." To the deep thinking Greeks, a culture of Alexander the Great, like which the world had never seen, a man with arrogance had no claim to truth and was weak minded. Those who were arrogant in their thinking were the outcasts, the ignorant, the weak of mind. Because to the ancients, a strong mind could make an argument, an apologetic (Greek) well. There was no need to try and switch someone else's mind.

The challenge was in making YOUR mind and thoughts and knowledge expand. Didasko is "teacher. It was all about the didaskas = teaching.

I invite Petr to didiasko all of us. We may learn and be better for it.
Teach his apologetics well + I never have to change my opinion to expand my knowledge.

Welcome Petr!

Blessings,
Mark

What the anti’s miss is a much bigger point other than what human behaviors are or are not acceptable. The point is that all life including they own feeds off other life. Even the roads we build are built from the bodies of our ancestors, be it concrete or asphalt. All ant’is participate in this life struggle without any thought just through living, i.e. eating, clothing, sheltering, receiving medical attention, etc. People have become detached from this fact through the division of labor whereas someone else does their butchering, rendering, manufacturing, shoemaking, creates their medicines, etc. The food chain doesn’t diminish or stop with living creatures, but continues well after death as any farmer will attest with the use of fertilizers, lime, and even the top soil which is formed by decaying life. It is hard to argue that it is acceptable for a patient to receive a pig’s ligament or artery but unacceptable to wear a garment made from an animal hide. Trappers are just part of this on-going process, and our process is well regulated and sustainable.

One of the biggest problems today is very few people can reasonably and rationally discuss topics they disagree on. First we must realize my beliefs, ideas, and life experiences are not the same as yours there for I will likely see things differently . If everyone thought the same we would all be living in caves still striking rocks together to make fire. Exchange of ideas used to be encouraged especially in higher education. It makes you evaluate question and back up your beliefs and theories and can reinforce or change your views. Today those debates and discussion are shut down before they start and everyone wants to live in their bubble of like minded people.

Welfare carrying capacity, disease, environmental impact of animals have been covered well so I won't wast time on that. Rather give you my perspective and why I tend to be hostile to the anti's and animal rights crowd based on my experiences in the US.

Keep in mind these are generalizations.

They are normally very disconnected with nature and the natural world so have no real understanding of how it works only their idea of how it works based on no real experience or facts. They have no real concept of actions and consequences and often are so blind to their double standards its mind blowing.

Trappers and hunters on the other hand know multiple species life cycles, feeding habits , methods of travel, can identify almost every animal, tree, track, and even what type of animal that pile of poop came from and how long ago. We dont fight and struggle when in the natural world we are at home there . I'm uncomfortable in town but right at home in the country. We are the leaders in conservation efforts and mannagment. We know how the life cycle works that we are a part of it and embrace it.

On your side normally I'm suprised if you have spent a full weekend or two all year outdoor and observed nature. Instead in typical left fashion you tend to attempt to tell others what and how to do everything even though you have no understanding of it yourself. See the wild fires for a perfect example of what happens when those that dont understand nature and that man is infact a part of nature are left in charge of management of it.

In the meantime those so disconnected try tell me I have bad karma for killing those groundhogs eating my pumpkin, opossum and coons that are eating my garden and killing my chickens and coyotes & foxes killing my goats and sheep. It's almost comical. Come to my place and finish euthanizing those lambs you have watched for weeks multiple times a day stayed up all night in tha barn and fields while they were to be sure ther are no complications that are now shredded bleeding gasping for air by that pack of coyotes with your own hand while your young under 10 children watch. Come get your hands dirty then tell me I'm cruel for humanely trapping and killing those predators and keeping there population within the natural carring capacity of the land.

Yet those same leftist are my customers wanting my superior organic produce , pastured poultry, free range eggs, and other all natural products from my farm. And are the same that are against the death penalty for convicted murdering child rapist and fight for that murder and clam the value of human life while at the same time support the killing of the unborn.

That's a very brief take from my experience in my little part of the world. In your city in Russia your limited experience may differ. But it a small take of why many of us have a hard time discussing any topic with any animal rights people. They just dont have any hands on experience if they did they would be able to see how limited and idealistic there view of the world actually is

I never knew id made mother earth mad, hadn't even thought about it to be honest, maybe that's why my garden won't grow every year.

I think petr wants sob stories. Evidence of bad karma.

Back in the 80's I was going coast to coast in a semi pulling a refrigerated trailer. Hauled meat to every major city in the U.S. and lots of smaller ones. Company reimbursed me if I paid someone to unload it or I could do it and pocket the money. There were wooden pallets on the trailer floor to allow cold air to circulate under the boxes. Boxes of hamburger were right at 100 pounds. 98 if I remember right. Usually had on about 46000 pounds. I usually did my own unloading and pocketed the money.

I picked up a box of burger and turned to my right to put it on the pallet behind me that meat would actually be stored on. The pallet on the floor I had to stand on broke as I was twisting. I blew out a disc in my back but didnt know it. It hurt bad and I fell down. Was hard to g et up but I thought I had torn a muscle.

Anyway I took a couple weeks off and went back to work. Thought that muscle was taking a long time to heal. Began getting awful pain in my hip and leg. I figured that was arthritis and the best thing to do was keep working. Worked myself into a surgery.

Surgery didnt help. So I limped around for some years. Finally got so bad I decided to eat a bullet. Couldnt hardly get to the bathroom. Figured if I couldnt live I would take my turn at dying.

Wife started crying and called the V.A. They talked me into coming in an d put m e on morphine. Morphine helped a bunch. I was pretty happy just lying around. Spent a lot of time in the old chatroom while I was stoned. Eventually an orthopedic Dr named Dahlenberger said he MIGHT be able to give me some relief and I might wake up paralyzed. Well I woke up in fine shape. I had a morphine addiction to kick but I got that done too. (Not fun. I was bad sick)

I am careful not to pick up anything heavy now and I am careful how I do i t. Other than that when I have pain Ibuprofin knocks it out and I am good for awhile again.

So any way you decide. Was that bad karma good karma or both?

Putin wears fur all the time. Google Putin in fur and then tell him he is a murderer. In his case you would be correct because he murders people.

I humbly submit.... I'm not Eastern Platonic, pantheistic, god is all and all is god, so I can inject myself into "all things," and it doesn't upset the cosmos, and does not disturb karma.

I don't believe in karma, the pantheistic way of viewing this world. Karma is a result of a faith.
I'm Judeo-Christian, made to rule over the birds, fishes, and things that creep. I'm a result of this faith.
Some coyotes are tricky, but I just try a different smell or set or location to rule over them!

I don't hold the view that there is divine karma, but I do believe there is Divine Providence.

Blessings,
Mark

Your wanting to be the champion for animals,,yet cant tell the difference between a fox and a coyote.Thats one of the big problems with folks like you.Same as anti gun folks,,yapping against guns they know NOTHING about.

I think its so cute how Savell got all those german shepherds to take a nap together all at once.He must be like a Doggy Whisperer.

Savell is cute, in a doggy kind of way.
Just be careful when you pet him.

I currently have 9 employees who are either from Russia or Ukraine. These are electricians, mechanics, computer IT specialists, and HVAC techs. Some of these I have worked around for over 25 years as the area I work in had a large group pf them immigrate in the early 90s. Your English grammar and spelling is far superior to any of them. Congratulations to you or your translation program.

^^^^ I recommend these for posts of the year.....Brilliant!! Chancey

Why do I feel like we're being punked.

Learned something new .Petr is czechoslovakian for PETER.

I guess the vegetarian animal rights Nazis got what they had coming:

According to Dr. Robert Proctor, Wagner even preached a racist socialism based on vegetarianism that would cleanse Germany from the corrupting influence of the Jews. Wagner was extremely anti-Semitic, something that he appropriated from Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860), who was the Fuhrer’s favorite philosopher. Schopenhauer was one of the first gurus in environmental ethics and animal rights in the modern sense, and vehemently blamed the Jews for a harmful false ecology borrowed from the opening chapters of Genesis.
Dr. Proctor also wrote that on a romantic date in the 1920s, Hitler “scolded his female companion for having ordered Wienerschnitzel.” Taken aback, the woman did not know how to respond, but Hitler did not demand her to change the order, saying: “No, go ahead and have it, but I don’t understand why you want it. I didn’t think you wanted to devour a corpse … the flesh of dead animals. Cadavers!” Hitler went so far to call any kind of meat broth, “corpse tea.” Proctor further wrote that Heinrich Himmler failed to convert the Waffen SS into vegetarian non-smokers. Yet both Himmler and Hitler had plans to require a vegetarian diet to be enforced on the German populace after the war, which included draconian plans for the meat industry. Hitler speculated, “The consumption of meat is reduced the moment the market presents a greater choice of vegetables.”


Read more: https://www.americanthinker.com/art...litical_vegetarianism.html#ixzz6Yn0OmugV
Follow us: @AmericanThinker on Twitter | AmericanThinker on Facebook

I read this twice this morning I'm not even going to come in on it because I'm just one guy. My opinion isn't going to change someone else's.
The only Power I have is what I allow into my world do either upset me or to bring me happiness. That is where the true power exists

Privet Petr. Menya zovut Sheron. YA khudozhnik i risuyu zhivotnykh, dvizhushchikhsya po zhizni, na kotorykh okhotniki lyubyat smotret'. Mne vsegda nravilos' uznavat' o russkoy zemle, gorakh i zhivotnykh. YA lyublyu medvedey, Rosomakhu i tigrov, kotoryye yest' v vashey strane. YA lyublyu ralli, kotoryy tak krasiv. Vozmozhno, vy videli shapki iz etogo mekha. Vse predstaviteli russkikh traditsiy, gordyashchiyesya svoyey kul'turoy. YA voskhishchayus' russkimi lyud'mi i tem, kak oni vyzhivayut i ostayutsya schastlivymi, kakimi my starayemsya byt'. Vy zhivete v gorode ili v derevne? Kakikh zhivotnykh vy lyubite videt' v zhizni i kotorymi voskhishchayetes'?

Yes Sharon. I would love a vodka thank you. LOL

While cute in humour, that is NOT in any form what I wrote , Ryan...just to set this straight with anyone else who might not "see" that you jest.

some of you are probably wondering what Sharon said


Hi Peter. My name is Sharon. I am an artist and draw animals moving through life, some hunters like to look at. I always liked learning about the Russian land, mountains and animals. I love the bears, Wolverine and tigers in your country. I love the rally, which is so beautiful. You may have seen hats made from this fur. All representatives of Russian traditions, proud of their culture. I admire the Russian people and how they survive and remain happy, the way we try to be mine. Do you live in a city or a country? What animals do you love to see in life and which you admire?

Named after the disciple who begin the Church in Jerusalem. He was a Jew preaching to fellow Jews.

Pete, since translators relate some terms a bit different, I will clarify a wee bit ..."Rally" is in fact supplemented for my word for Sable , the Russian marten species that is so highly esteemed in hats and garments worldwide, especially in the homeland.

"they survive and remain happy, the way we try to be mine" ...I said, they survive and be as happy as we try to be.

"live in a city or a country?" live in the city, or in the country side ?

I want to establish common ground of interest and respect for culture, which as has been mentioned by others here, Russia has amazing history in the fur industry. Real fur.

wow we are talking to nobody. I think we wanted to "make a point" and leave. calls us murders but he's the one wearing petroleum based faux fur that's killing our planet. we are harvesting a renewable resource that God gave us.

i thought maybe my sob story would bring him out since that is what he asked for. Maybe nothing bad has ever happened in his life so he feels the reason is good karma? Who can say

I think Sharon is on the right track. We know what we disagree on lets see what we have in common.

So if Petr ever does come back so we can civilly discuss with him let’s try to avoid using religious or emotional opinions, both of which he has based most all of his comments towards us. We need to use scientific facts, personal experiences should be used very sparingly, to promote our conservation efforts. There are hundreds if not thousands of scientifically based studies that support our conservation methods. We need to be able to quote some of these to base the promotion of our view points on proven scientific material. We can never win an emotional or religious argument but we will win an argument based of science everyday and twice on Sundays.

Petr's entire writing is based on emotion and a spiritual belief. Scientific research isn't going to persuade him in either realm.

I will give him this much, he actually called us murderers without wanting to murder us. At least he has that quality. There is a good portion of the other side who would gladly inflict bodily harm against trappers or more likely, relish if somebody else did so they don't have to get their hands dirty themselves.

We have to use a factual based approach to deal with those who don’t see things the way we do. We may not be able to persuade a particular individual to change his or her mind but by defending/promoting our position using facts we will be able to keep public opinion in our favor. This Petr exercise is about much more than one anti on a trapping forum.

Why would we try to win?
Perhaps his culture is one in which they exchange ideas.
Sharon is correct in her starting point. Thank you Sharon!

Because we sure don’t want to lose.

I was going for the scientific approach. Maybe we convinced him already and he’s out prebaiting some cubbies

Truth

I fed a hungry neglected dog today and chickens in a coop with no food or water. I hope that chases bad luck away! Then I ate bacon for supper.

Where is Petr's original post?

I dont believe he will be back.

You may be correct PF.
It seemed pretty clear, as I read through a few of the replies to him, that more than a couple ships were lining up in the harbor, and they had prideful intent of sinking the Russian vessel Petr.

It's typical, I suppose, if your ship gets shot at (as you first enter a new harbor), to turn your ship around.

Blessings,
Mark

I hope my post did not come off to harsh. I tried with the best of my ability to be civil and explain my stance and why I have that stance. Maybe I was not successful in my attempt?

Where's Rocky Balboa when you need him?

I think he's probably been offered more civility than he deserves.

You've got a cancelling effect happening there.

The Petr dude writes like a guy always having trouble with his vechile.

Yes, I have an open mind. But that doesn't mean my conscience is open.

How about u? Do you have an open mind, if I show u the evils of trapping? How the animal must feel with its foot...or FACE...caught in a trap?

Comrade a head catch with a connibear is one of the If not the most humane ways for a furbearer to die

Are you, or were you, a sable trapper Petr? Wolves? Go ahead and show me. I gave you my sob story which you never even commented on. The story is true. So is this

Dead before it knew what hit it. We should all be so lucky to go in such a way.

You could not show US the evils of trapping...because none exist!

How does the animal feel when it's ripped apart and eaten, while it's still alive by another animal? Wild animals don't die well.

Keith

You ever been in a bad car wreck?

Greetings Petr.

You are speaking of the unlikely example of trapping.

(In which someone likely didn't follow the rules)

Trapping methods are as humane as possible.

It's far better than the natural course of nature.

Petr. I would hope that you study the natural behavior of all animals, Especially the animals that have an open season for us to understand their way of Life. Trapping is the best way to control over population and disease, which is a long painful death.

I'm all ears Petr. I want you to tell me more of how you came to your conclusion of anti Trapping.

Welcome aboard Petr!

It seems to me that Petr doesn’t have much to say or simply hasn’t any good answers to our questions or to our side of the debate. I would bet he’s never had a trap on his hand so he would know of what he speaks or maybe both thumbs in a #4 coil, got himself out and reset the trap without suffering. In fact if traps worked like people of his ilk would have you believe most of us would have no fingers. At the end of the day or at any other time really, if he wants to tell me how to live or how to feel about anything he will find himself at the end of a long and rough row to hoe. On the other hand he can believe what he wants and live how he wants as long as he minds his business and not mine. Petr, I hope we understand each other, but I’m not gonna hold my breath waiting for you to come around and I wouldn’t suggest you do so while waiting on me either.

Great news.

Please realize the vast majority of licensed trappers, who are among the most regulated and controlled outdoorsman, do not like to see animals trapped inhumanely. I’m sure you can show pictures of animals trapped inhumanely, PETA is one of the best at doctoring photos and staging these scenes to make us look bad and play on the emotions of people whom do not want to see reason.

Most of us follow best management practices. Where traps and methods have gone through extensive testing to ensure the animal is held with minimal injury or damage, with cable restraints, cage style traps or foothold traps. Or the animal killed is quickly and effectively in the case of body grip style traps or snares.

We use techniques so that our traps are very selective in what animal we catch and how that animal is held.

None of us want the animal to suffer an excessive amount. We surely treat the animal better than Mother Nature does, look at how disease and starvation affect game populations that are allowed to grow outside of the carrying capacity. Or just when one animal eats another animal.


Thank you for your open mindedness.

Isn't this the same one who was just here to hack into the website from the beginning?

I believe he was always forthcoming about his intentions.

That he disapproved of trapping.

Not to mention the "you are murderers" thing.

Not real interested in talking to an anti myself I'd rather talk to someone who's mind isn't made up yet but to each his own. But I think he was trying to make back link to drive traffic from search engines. I could be wrong but that's what I thought he said.

Pretty sure we treat animals better than your government treats its citizens that don't agree with your government.You may want to start by righting that wrong.Just sayin.

So basically no, that's like saying your open minded to the LGBT community but let me show you why it wrong and how it's evil.

Honestly seems your mind is and has been made up from the start. Your open minded to where it fits your agenda.
There's people here who can speak about this on multiple levels from a spiritual down to scientific but unless you are truly open minded and ready to put your emotions to the side and question what you think is right then there's truly no point .

Double tap.

Well untill he can address any of the issues we have taken the time to wright up for him with more than trapping is bad think of how the animals feel. Utilize and compose an argument supported by facts and science instead of emotion I will no longer wast any of my time.

Good luck living in your out of touch with the natural world fantasy land life.

proper and legal trapping is quite humane .

many non trappers would have you believe that a trap crushes the foot , or causes major damage if that were the case my fingers would be a mess but they don't.

I have all my fingers and they all work and I have been caught by my own traps many times.

for a demo I will stick my hand in a foothold trap. about half the people in the room generally jump sure I am going to loose fingers I keep talking , press down the levers with my feet and remove my hand.

no blood , no damage

when I get to my traps most of the time the animals are laying there sleeping till I get close.

we use traps sized to get pad catches , the pad of the animals foot is the toughest part they run on gravel roads on those pads.

Animals do feel pain if you step on a dogs ail it whimpers. Never will you see a animal with a crushed leg in a LEAGAL trap. I have never NEVER had a animal with a broke leg. Never have I had a animal suffer I don’t want to see one suffer that’s why I quickly cleanly dispatch my catches. The media lies. There have been illegal trappers before they are the ones you hear about. We on here are all LEAGAL trappers we go quitely about our business we don’t brag about our catches on social media for the fear we will be ridiculed. Trapperman.com is a place for trappers where we can talk to each other and know we won’t be ridiculed by the rest of the world. Petr please let’s have an open PEACEFUL debate share your opinion maybe we can shed some light from our side I’d love to.

I thinks it's a moral question that should be debated in a proper manner. If i was playing the devils advocate I think I could shoot some far size holes in some of the ideas that you trap for the conservation of it. I will say it would be hard to truly debate something with 15 people jumping on you at one time. Again I think it boils down to moral question when you get to the bottom of it. We've been beating the conservation drum since antis started and I dont know if we are winning. I would enjoy a respectful debate on this issue.

I will add that conservation is a part of some trappers motivation and it can be a benefit but for the majority it is a side benefit at most.

Debate.....pfffttt!

Petr..do you eat any meat?

I cannot debate 15 peeps at once. Pick two or three of u and I'll prove them wrong.

No I don't eat meat. yuch!

You pick from the people who have asked you questions. Use the quote button and debate the topic at hand. I am sure you won't change any minds but we all get a better idea of how the other side sees the world. I will stay out of this and would ask others to as well. As petr was given reign of this thread by the boss. I am making popcorn as I type.

I’ll post once on this. Petr, what you don’t understand and probably won’t believe is that most of the guys on here love and appreciate animals and nature more than 99% of the people that proclaim to protect it. Most of them are like me. The guy that stops the tractor and moves a killdeer nest on the ground out of the way so it doesn’t get smashed, or the guy that gets off the swather and moves the two day old fawn so it doesn’t get ran over, or the guy that swerves going 60 down a dirt road to miss a snake that is just doing what he’s doing. We are those people!!!

Absolutely, I don’t know how many baby turtles I’ve helped across the road.

Is it just me or has the thought crossed anyone else's mind Petr is really just James coming out of the closet? Lol

leather boots , coat , belt . furniture , wallet , gloves ?

So far, the best post to Petr.
Sharon had a very good one also.

Lol I forgot that point. Have you ever stoped and picked up am injured bard owl on your way to family's holiday party several hours away so it can be rehabbed and released? Would you even notice the injured bird driving 70mph down the interstate? And I'm sure you would not know how to pick up said bird safety for both it and you or that your wife would be comfortable holding it on her lap for 2 hours in the car.

Ya that's not theoretical that was last Thanksgiving. I picke up a bard owl off the interstate that had a compound leg fracture. I was able to get it to a rehabilitation center the next day. Yep that was another couple of hours of driving to get there. He was released back into the wild in March. That's not the first injured bird of pray I have been responsible for. Let's not even get into all the babies like squirrel, coons ect I have bottle feed tell they were big enough to be released.

You see we live it. It real and a lifestyle not an idea or theory held by someone so far removed from nature that can't comprehend the natural order.

Don't feel the need to debate anyone. It's a belief system, a philosophy that differs from ours. Please feel free to articulate those beliefs and respond generally to the positive comments made here by several of our regular posters. This is not meant to be offensive but simply forthright..........7 pages, for the most part, well articulated facts on responsible and humane management of wildlife use by humankind and we've had not a single thoughtful or intelligent response from you.

As much as i dislike James I don't think he would be ainti trapping. James is definitely a thorn in the side of great Americans. Petr was just raised to think like he does. He feels that he can't control his own life so he will try to control others. I really don't think is petr fault he is like he is.

I can pretty much guarantee that all trappers have given more thought to the treatment of animals we catch than anyone opposed to trapping ever did. We are the ones in the trenches. We've had extremely long debates on this forum alone on which traps are appropriate for each animals and how to modify the same to make them even better.

I think we are being played
I'll eat a few more bowls of popcorn before I say the rest of how I view
Petr

Petr, you remind me of a young man that had no job or money. So he asked a well known farmer if he could employ him. The farmer said yes and handed the lad a briar scythe and told him to cut a large patch of weeds and briars. After a couple of hours the farmer came back and found the lad sitting underneath a shade tree and had cut no briars. As an excuse the young man said he couldn't find a place to start. So the farmer grabbed the scythe from his hands and threw it into the middle of the big patch of weeds and briars, and said "START THERE" !

Seems to me if you are going to join the cohort of Sophia and/or Gaia then you need to find a place to cut the knot and get started conquering the world. It should be easy since your theory fits with the notion that the world is just one big soul and we are all tied together as just one soul. That fits right in with your social philosophy that we are not individuals and just a part of something bigger.
Surely you can set up some sort of an offensive attack against this bunch of trappers. After all they are a big variety from all walks of life and many barely know their right from their left hand. So just use your evolutionary tactics and pick out some of the not so learned and/or weak and start on them. It should be an easy task. Don't pay any attention to the lazy guard dogs, they are probably asleep under a shade tree!

Petr is the one prolly eating popcorn and watching page after page go by.
With a buttery smile

Just pick someone and start typing.
just

Petr, it is always easy to hide behind what you can’t see. Unless you feed yourself from a small, self maintained organic garden you suffer the same “blood guilt” that we as hunters and trappers do. Have you ever considered the millions upon millions of small animals that make their home in the fields where your vegetables are grown? During harvest and planting those animals are tilled into the ground without any consideration. Your vegetables are produced at the cost of millions of lives but you feel superior because you don’t see it happen! Do you drive a car? You suffer blood guilt for every animal that has been killed by petroleum disasters. Maybe you ride a bicycle, same thing, the tires are made of petroleum products. Do you wear clothes? Synthetics are petroleum products. Only clothes made of organic cotton? Right back to death by farming. Please justify yourself as to how you are superior to those of us that confront death on a face to face basis. I’m sorry to inform you but you are equal to us. Denying it is just lying to yourself.

This proves he ain’t gonna change. Let’s not wast our time we could be preparing for trapping season or something anything. He just wants to tell us how bad we are and when we try to offer advice he won’t listen.

So the kid eats rabbit food? Yikes, I'd worry about getting some sort of health issue from mother who ever she is as payback for starving bunnies.

You see what I did there right?

I pretended like I was in a position to judge him the same way would would judge me.

Everything used in society entails power from fuel , oil, petrol , plastic and animal products.

Living does, and that is our right and privilege , and in taking good care of things around us.

There is no true living "off the grid". Anything depending on fuel , flight , driving , medical help, taxes, everything...is dependent on all resources used well. It is either working harder, or smarter, is the only difference.

To be online here requires substantial resources with a plethora of materials used.

To be balanced as a living being , that enjoys art in all its many forms , deep love expressed, and the natural world is the key to real life lived in quality time. The human being is indeed a most amazing part of the natural world , the only one who has the ability to enjoy the beauty of that world, planning for the future and learning from the past .

To waste this amazing life in anger and misinformation is the real tragedy.

Many peoples across the world knew what the important things were to live and pursue happiness, Russians included . They still do, against all odds. Beautiful architecture, art, music, using exquisite creating power, using and appreciating real animal products in many ways , just as Americans do.

The first step in real appreciation of this life we have, is to stop being angry.

Start learning.

In Russia, there is a beautiful grouse , the Capercaillie , who has a distinct call . When they call, for those moments, they cannot hear what is in the woods close by them. It is in those times that they are most vulnerable to things they know nothing about.

Wise people, who learn, know to take in knowledge, the need to be silent, replacing repetitive loudness with wise education , knowing when they are loud , they cannot hear to learn. . They become aware of the influences around them, to their happiness and survival.

Great point!
My grandpa used to remind us that God gave us 2 ears and only one mouth for a reason!

Sharon, you are my hero! Very articulate and well worded reply, but I'm afraid it falls on deaf ears!

Why not pick one of the positive responses and start a dialog?

Yep all these posts fall on deaf ears I can't even count how many box turtles I have helped cross the road so they don't get smashed I know this has been posted already but trappers,hunters and fishermen have dune more for wildlife than any anti group out there.These people like Petr are the same ones think it is alright to kill baby's and not animals AND how did a dork like this get in here I have read the first post but why was he let in sorry it just boggles my mind I have not read the hole thing I am late to it. I also know there has been people sharpening there axe just waiting for some one like me to post but I really don't care anymore trapper talk has changed alot in the past couple years. So what is the count 4+ liberals and a anti now.Just voicing my point of view I like animals more then most people I do not intend to stop hunting and trapping and I hope to keep doing it in most humane way possible the post Sharon rote can't get much better I read a couple other really good ones.It is sad to see posts like this on a great sight. if this is unfit please axe it and me if need be.

At this pace Petr this debate we have set forth will take up most of trapping season and most of dont have the time. At least let us know if this is going to move forward or if this thread is dead

I propose Mark, Sharon, and one more continue this discussion with petr. We allow them to debate if he so wishes, we all bow out and hear it out.

Ladies first please.
I study with Paul, a great young man from St. Petersburg, on the Baltic Sea in Russia.
I would run anything Petr might write us by Paul first for his thoughts. I have no concept of the Russian culture.

Blessings,
Mark

You've got to cry without weeping
Talk without speaking
Scream without raising your voice

Bono

Some of you guys have a way with words. Some of you have words with patience infused.

Me, I’m, well, patient when I need to be. My words can be long and poetic or short and sweet.

But right now I have nothing.

Even the bible talks about casting pearls.

I'm always up for a good debate but this seems to be an exercise in futility. I've debated anti's before and one thing I have learned is that their is no changing their minds. I'm opting out.

... is Gaia female ? If so I could turn her into a consumptive use conservationist with nothing more than a wink ....and maybe a bottle of Boone’s farm lol

[
Yep " Mother of life" in greek mythology

I say we let coonman debate him.

U want to debate things of conscience and morality? SORRY I have the high ground.

U leave animals in your traps for 24 hours! Each hour of AGONY. and don't u try to tell me a steel TRAP on your foot doesn't hurt!! Try it sometime with your own foot. FOR 24 HOURS!!!

Sure animals kill other animals. Thats part of the Great Circle of Life. But U are not part of that Circle when you use artificial traps and trucks and so forth. If u caught animals with your own claws and teeth it might be allowable morally, but only for to eat! Not for FASHION garments only the rich can afford

There’s a boat load of red flags in this one.
I have seen a lot of patience and good prudence from the owner of this site over the years however this may have been a mistake.

Osky

Sorry Petr, but I don't think you've come here to debate at all. I think you have ulterior motives but that's my opinion. I've dealt with a lot of people through the years who have said they couldn't do what I do hunting and trapping, but they understood why I did it and why it is beneficial not just for our uses but also for the animals benefit. When game populations get to high to sustain, starvation and disease takes over and no one wins. But I think you already know that and have your mind made up.
It seems to me you are more against trappers than trapping. Jmo

Let’s let leftlane and Boco go full boar on this guy!

You say you cant debate all of us yet you don't say who you want to have this conversation with. Pick a competitor and go all out. I dont want you to give in or give up I want the show i was promised. Come on already Petr get your good karma points and show us the light. You seem childish and foolish. You came in like the white knight and now you close your eyes and swing wildly at nothing. Show us Petr take us to Neverland.

Yes or no on a real debate. Yes I believe you feel you have the high ground but can you defend and hold that ground in a straight up debate? If an animal didn't feel any pain would trapping be alright in your eyes? My guess is your answer would be no. So let's skip the idea of pain and move on to the next point why trapping is wrong.

Petr you say we use "artificial traps and trucks". Your high ground must have you walking everywhere. I see fur laying all over roads going to waste and not being used that was run over by vehicles. You must be the king of shoe leather express. Your clothes and vegetables must be made and grown by yourself, I'm sure you wouldn't wear anything or eat anything that was made by a meat eater. That would be akin to aiding of the killing of animals. And don't get me started on deep fried foods in animal fat or the wearing of leather. You must live in a bubble to avoid everything you stand for. Does your employer follow your same mantra if not make sure you go to work and tell him off tomorrow.

Ford F-150 ain’t no artificial truck son! Now we have another debate

Soon what about then a pack o wolves brings down a elk and eats on it for a day and a half while it's still alive? Which happens all the time. Or when a coyotes decides to go on a thrill kill spree (which by the way is a thing in most canines even dogs ) and kills 20-30 sheep or deer or elk and only eat some of one or two.
And 24 he is a stretch to say the least. That's basically saying if I set the trap at 2:30 p.m today then that animals must have been caught by 3:30pm that same day for it to be in the trap for any where near 24hr. Most anime are never in the trap for more than 5 hr honestly. And the agony part. There are studies that show (I think it's with the bmps ,Texas A.M and t. T turn bull and associated) showing that after the first 20 or so minutes heart rates reduce and the animal generally just kind calms down. Honestly when your really thing about some if the crap these animals espically preators go though (I don't know if you ever seen what two male fox or coyotes look like after a fight) sitting in the end of a chain with a numb foot is gonna be pretty low on the list. Not to mention you got guys like me who go out if their ways to try and modify these traps so they cause as little pain or suffering as possible. Heck I could sit her for at lest two hours and talk about how you can tune you jaw spacing spring strength chain length shock springs laminations and on and on so that the animals you catch won't even have a scratch on them.
There was a study done in either maine or NY that showed modified traps can be so, genial on an animal they can become "trap happy " which mean they purposely get caught because they know they will get free food in the form of bait and released.
I've caught people hunting dogs multiple times in the same trap at the same location and with the same bait sometimes days in a row. If my traps caused so much agony why would this continue to happen? Honestly a dog is one of nature's smarter animals, you swat them on the button a few times for peeing in the house they have the sense to not per in the house anymore. So you would figure if they where spending hours of pure agony at the same place after trying to get the same smell they wouldn't do it again and again.

And this while thing about us not being apart of the Great circle because we use tools. So chimps and various other primates have been documented as recently using tools such as pointed stocks and such to spear fish and hunt smaller animals. So are they now out of the Great circle? Honestly if a coyote or fox or raccoon could figure out how to use something to obtain food and make life easier wouldn't they. I mean logically speaking. A rat comes into a humans home because living in a house full of scrap food and earth is easier then living in a grass field digging up hay seeds and being chased bay predators. A crow will place nuts in the street for truck to run over and crack because it's easier to do that than to peck at it for 20 minuites . Are these animals not of the Great circle?

I honestly have spoken to many many people who are of the more nature centric beliefs, love all life don't wear fur or eat meat ,hate the idea of killing any living creature some if which are very good friends but they where truly open mind enough to have a civil conversation and try to understand . You are not. You came here feeling as though you know what's right and wrong and truly theirs no changing your mind because you have no desire to truly see from the other side of the glass. I see it with anti trappers and trappers atheists and believers left and right Somone just wants to get in their high horse and preach to the opposition and say they want to debate but truly what they want is their opposition to just sit there and believe everything they say without any dialogue what so ever as you cherrypick every thing you hear to where it is your favor and only your favor and disregard anything else. Because truly all you have been doing is regergutating the same "well it's fine if an animal does it but if you do it" back to back.
Honestly it's fine that you don't like trapping, it's fine you don't eat meat or even you just plain don't agree with us. But this whole idea of wanting to debate and talk along with the self righteous attitude to a subject your earthly biased to to the point it's a waste of everyone's time, as we say here in the south, That dog just ain't gonna hunt hand.
But alas I know where this is going if you even read it to with that being said my you be blessed by what ever being you worship

Petr, why did you send your response to Paul's questionnaire? Why did you choose Trapperman over other sites?

Hmmm. I've had a trap snap on my fingers before.
I didn't like it much nothing broke but I bet my fingers would go numb if I left it on there. Just like an animals paw would.
I'm sure Petr that you have never been on a trap line so you don't know that many many times the caught animal is just laying there sound asleep.
You Petr just like most all the other antis have let your imagination over ride the facts.

just

Sure we all leave our carbon footprints and food-chain footprints. THAT can't be avoided. BUT u don;t need to kill animals for fashion garments!!!

Bad things will happen to u when u are cruel.!!

U call me names only because u can't refute me. How many bad things have happened to u because u trap? Ever ASK yourself?

Mother Theresa had bad things happen in her life, and she was a saint....
Sorry Petr, but you make no sense.

If u are really moving fans and killdeer nests then BULLY for u!!! U have a soft heart. How come u trap then? Tell us how the animal looks when u look in its eyes? Have u ever looked in an animal's eyes when its in your trap?

Have u had bad things happen to u? Karma my friend. Quit trapping and maybe you can quit those pills u have to take for every day of your life!!!

How did you even get on here, this is supposed to be for trappers. Yes you petr?
Seem to be a trouble making anti with the comments you make.

Quit letting the thought of this guy trigger you guys....

No triggering me, just wanting to know how in the world he got on here?
Just a simple question,

I'm afraid Petr is only expressing emotional feelings.

Apparently rooted in his beliefs of karma.

No facts, no science, no real logic.

He is showing that he knows very little about the natural world.

Or how life works really.

My thoughts too but wasn't going to be the first to say it. The only thing Pekr can say is "if something bad has ever happened to you, its because you hurt animals." What about people who don't hurt animals, but still have bad things happen to them. Those 5 teenage girls that died in a car wreck, I can't imagine what they did to deserve dying. Makes no sense whatsoever.

It can be difficult to discuss Western philosophy ways with Eastern philosophy moralists who hold a pantheist worldview.
Why? Because at the core, it is a religious question, not a moral question.
One's view of this world, is a person's context for everything in the world. And West is not East. It hasn't been for 2500 years.

The question(s) may be;

Petr,

What city in Russia do you call home?
To help in our exchanging of ideas, is there a particular religion you place your faith in?

It's quite helpful during the exchanging of ideas, to discover the other person's perspective.

Blessings,
Mark

Wow really is happening right now, I've seen it all now.
I just figured prit was related to someone, i guess i have just well not sure I'm speechless.
All done

What job do you do to earn a living, Petr?

Read first post

Humans dont use claws and teeth to kill because our brains and hand dexterity allow us to make tools.

Petr your philosophy is based on a lie. The lie that we humans are not part of the natural world.

So my dear trapper man friends, here's the deal.
Some of you may not realize there are other tribes and other tongues in our world.
Some may not really care.

We are a tribe (America) steeped in competition and my way or the highway, individualism and win at all cost.
If I had to ask my trapping pals, what do you love about America, we may get 100 answers from 100 people, and you'd all be right.
This is America and we are free to choose, true?

Most of the world is not like us. Much of the world is not near so blessed. Some of the people live in downright h_ll on earth.

Sharon's post was a fine example of humility in written form. It flows easier from a women's pen then from a man's pen in many cases, so we'd invite more humble, yet convicted posts to Petr just like it, correct?

It's a tough stance, to be convicted about something, yet remain humble in it. Especially for the male gender.
This forum isn't a winner take all. It's not win so my pride may boast, and my name will become great among the nations.
Heck, it's just a trapping forum, created in honor of one of the neatest men I've ever known.
Charlie was a humble, convicted do'er of "things," one of which happened to be trapping.
I set up next to him at conventions as often as I could years ago, because his demeanor amide all sorts of people was formative in my life.
Who are you being formative to these days, I would ask all of us prideful dudes?
I promise no one who listened and mentored from the Charles Dobbins types of this world is ranting and raving on the streets these days.
Quite the opposite.

Take a kid trapping. Or fishing. Or picking mushrooms. Our Lord provides all of us in America with plenty.
But please, if you do take a youngster, can we quite trying to make everybody a winner in all things. We've got enough of that in all the groups with acronyms for names.
Disciple them on how to get the job done right, respecting other trappers who love what they love.

Food for thought on a Thursday.
Blessings,
Mark

danny,
Why is someone who doesn't think as you think a lier?
Seems, you're sinking your boots into the sand pretty firm on statements like this.

What human can know all there is to know?

Mark I think a lot of our issues stim from our dealings and constant attacks from those in our country that tend to have the same or similar views as our new friend. Always on the defensive .

Add to the singular thought process of human kill animal = bad = why bad things happen to you and not a single thing not biased on emotion and his personal moral code. And not a single attempt to understand or present any type of open mind. He just wants to try to win just like many of our guys in a situation that there is nothing to win.

PM,
I would agree. Good points. We are attacked often. By most.
I'd offer, just as we kinda find the Petr's of the world hard to fathom, the Petr's of the world (they're not all in Russia) find us equally hard to fathom.

So how is the ball moved downfield in a football game? The fans, on the sidelines, and the players from the benches, and they players on the field can all yell for victory.
Move that ball!
Protect that endzone!

Why is it, there are coaches who are better than the other coaches - over a long, prestigious career - who whip the other coaches at "moving the team and the ball down field?"
And they are not yelling when they do it.
They are the opposite of the yellers.
If we're Americans, and we like to win, maybe quit yelling so much.

Blessings,
Mark

I to read the 1st post , and still hoping it's just a bad dream

This murderer will just keep my yap shut for the rest of this.

There are animal rights folks who are highly educated and very intelligent who can articulate their beliefs exceptionally well and present a very good position in an interesting and respectful manner. That's what I was hoping for when Mr. Paul chose to open the door to some respectful dialogue. Unless there's a significant language barrier, which does not seem to be the case, Petr is not that opportunity.

Mark June , why are you putting words in my mouth?

Just because that woman in the video you posted claimed the covid vaccine would change peoples DNA so they could telepathically link up with the internet, doesn't mean I think you were lying. Just that I think you allowed yourself to be misled.

Mark
If you want to befriend Petr that's your choice. I have no ill will against him but just want, as your first post stated, a debate on the logic of his side against the logic of my side. No yelling or hard feelings. He may win or I my prevail but we will both learn. He chose to come to this forum to tell us we are wrong and I respect that if he is willing to defend and debate that position logically. And i don't need to understand his culture to present the logic of our trapping tradition. I see he didn't respond to any of my posts. Its not about changing his mind its about who can present the most logical case for their position.

Not me danny. Petr. You called his belief a lie.
Heck, call me stupid. I don't care. You're a trapper. We're pals.

I was just typing that the words you used... that if I was the one at the other end reading it, I might think you called me a lier.

Well this hole deal reminds me of a lesbian showing up at a party and 30 guy line up to try their hand at turning her straight lol.

The thing is the else people are not pro animal. They are anti-humanists. They'll decry everything we do that's not living in a cave and eating whatever you can forage. Of course the problem anti-humanists have is they ignore the ultimate logical end of that belief that if humans are the problem, then you eliminate the problem. They may go as far as trying to eliminate the animal users but when it's time to go to Jonestown, they'll all be standing around staring at everyone to make sure they're drinking the Kool aid before they drink it.

Best post on the whole thread.

When a better strategy would be to invite more lesbians.

That sounds really messy.

But did Savell show up and wink at her? That's the question.

I'm thinking You are a type of farmer Petr. You find a cause and lead others to become interested in your cause and bring their purses with them. We see it all the time even in the gun lobby. You become the farmer when you start milking those followers of your cause.
Maybe you could make money by writing a book telling people how to rid themselves of the vermin that invades their homes, particularly this time of year when mice and rats invade their homes looking to winter over there. I'm curious just how you handle a rat problem or do you just let the rats eat your babies ears off and just say that is the life cycle. Hopefully you don't just humanely catch the vermin and relocate them down the road where they can eat you neighbors babies ears off.
How many times have we seen lovey dovey people preach live and let live. The poor coyote has to eat too. Amazing how fast their attitude changes when a coyote goes over the fence with fluffy in his mouth!

Over populations create problems/costs. No one against hunting/trapping to remove the excess from populations, has ever offered to pay for those costs incurred.

I once debated this with another person from the "old country". He said they solved this problem by putting up fences to keep the animals out. ??? If fences are the answer, where do the animals live? LOL. Too many pie in the sky solutions to complex problems everywhere we look.

That may have been where she got that Boones farm at.
I dont think yall will change petr mind till we under stand why is the way he is. I am the way I am because of who raised me. My parents worked all the time and I went to baby sitter and they had me 6 days a week sometimes over night. They raised me like I was thier own. They were a older couple that worked for what they had, they had a garden evey year hunted and fished bailed hay in the summer. The man worked a farm the women work the house. They are why I am who I am today. I drove the hay truck for them to load square bails when I was 6 couod barley touch the breaks. I was taught to depend on my self not others. There us a reason why petr believes what he does and he should explain that reasoning so we can better under stand him.

Your never going to change his mind. Just go about trapping and posting pics.

Many people can't change until reality sets in. Had some people move here from Chicago and started coming to our church. They wanted to rough it so got themselves some chickens so they could live off the land. Well one Sunday morning they came to church in tears and said something caught her best hen and dragged it thru a hole he dug under the fence. I stopped by there on the way home and told her it looked like a coon had done it. I told her I had traps they could set and get rid of him or I had a gun they could shoot him and maybe they could make him an appointment so they would know what time he would be there. She said we don't want to hurt him, we just want him to leave our chickens alone. I said, then you need to buy more chickens. A couple nites later he clumb the fence and got another. I explained to them they needed to fasten them in a place they could shut the door every nite and let them out in the pen the next morning. Next nite the guy lay wait watching out the bedroom window for a few hours and blasted him with a 12 gauge. So you see people can change when they are put at the pivot point where change happens, lol.

All right Petr do you know how many animals were killed to make that plate of salad or corn and beans what ever you eat all the chemicals that kill small animals and insects and cause bird eggs to become soft and give animals birth defects and to slowly die off and go to almost extinct or how about all those small animals and insects that got chopped up mowing that salad or kale or the grass in your yard if you have one or all the small animals and birds that get sucked in to the combine when they are picking the corn and beans EVER THINK OF THAT so maybe you should ask your self do you fit in to the cycle of life in your beliefs. Don't gripe about being called name if you don't want to be called more you have all ready called us all murderers so don't expect to be called some you self. AND the bad thing that have happen'd to me were caused by my own stupid falt not because I trap.

So its just the fashion industry that utilizes fur?
I was told that in Russia the poor use fur garments because they outlast the other garments.
Is that not correct Petr?
just

Petr, you have not responded in the least with logic or expressed any appreciation of the immense amount of thoughtful reasoning and the time it took for so many educated people here to respond to you.

You continue to be loud, repeating loud phrases , like a broken record. Just like that grouse, you are only loud and so cannot hear.

Your grammar and lack of maturity makes me think you are a child , a rather spoiled one at that. Even if you are older, your lack of left brain development is painfully apparent. If you are even in Russia, I didn't know the common people there could have access to online freedom as you seem to have.

Few people in life have the opportunity to have the help in learning of the land, animals, and human development in maturity , as you have from all the amazing ,educated, kind people here , who have extended their hands out to you in patience and time . Despite many responsibilities they have to care for...expending mental bandwidth in your behalf.

Even if you can't see their logic, maturity on your part should at least have you truly "take the high road" , expressing thanks to them all , as real men do in polite action. You have not been able once to breach the high bar and acknowledge these people in thanks. You have not even "taken the high road" and made effort to thank Mr Paul , who so graciously allowed you into his "home" on this forum.

Children are taught to be respectful and say "thank you" when they are in someone's home. You are not on any high road....but are on a high horse.

My time is valuable . I do not allow myself to be strung along, jerked around, or treated badly. My patience is by no means a door mat to walk on.

As long as you are loud , angry, insulting and repetitive, you will be the only one unhappy and wasting life and time.

I sincerely hope you are intelligent enough to never physically stand before a real man , an outdoorsman who is full of masculine power, especially a veteran , and spout the childish words you so repetitively type on your keyboard. Your learning curve will likely receive a crash course in humility.

My time is valuable , and I am done expending my bandwidth to repetitive unappreciative loudness .

The traps I use have rubber padded jaws so it don't hurt them the cast offset jaws are just as good witch you would under stand that when you think of a trap you think about the cartoon stile trap with all the big teeth that will chop your leg off if you get caught in it I have been caught in every kind of trap I use and have not been hurt in any way and all the animals I have caught kave not been ether.

I’m not sure why anyone on this site would want to waste time responding or debating this fella.

Some might say:
It's not what you say,
It's how you say it.

Would those some be politicians and salesman?
Just a little humor
There is some truth in what u said Mark if your trying to connect with someone on a personal level more so than on a logical field.

Here is a little information you must not be aware of Petr
Wildlife creates damage.
Damage to crops, structures, ponds , vehicles and sometimes human life.
If left uncontrolled it would be catastrophic.
That's why we have wildlife damage control.
Think traps.
Damage control goes on all year long because the damage goes on all year long.
its necessary. That fur is wasted. The animal is just thrown in a hole and buried.
Fur trapping goes on a few months a year. Fur is useful. So why not use It ?

A little personal experience for you to consider.
Early this spring I removed 11 coon from our barn. These were not babies,
Actually I relocated them. If left there think what kind of damage they and their little ones would have done. You calculate how many animals that would be.

Have a good day.
just

I would have looked them right in the eyes as I lined up my sights on there forehead and pulled the trigger. Unless I was relocating them to the local coon hunters club woods. But I dont want my problem to become someone else's problem. And I have had a lot of damage this year. I cant waite to get home after a week ofv16 he shifts and set traps for the rest of the groundhogs that are in my pumpkin patch and under my barn. Them t will shoot with my boys becuse youth deer season comes in this weekend. I will be skinning and processing deer and enjoying my organic sustainable meat.

Its amazing that my young boys 8 and 10 are more intune with the natural circle of life he clambers on about but do not understand.

Skimmed through all six pages. It was of no surprise what I found, on either side. Paul opened the door for a civil conversation yet there was little to be found. I don't believe Petr was the right candidate for this position, but I think the experiment was a good one. One thing I did take away from this was that Petr regardless of his POV could never hope to successfully debate so many at once. Perhaps Paul could nominate two or three to have the civil conversation while the rest of us just read it I don't believe Petr could engage successfully in that either, but none the less it would narrow the focus and allow some actual conversation to take place.

I agree on all points. But you will get nothing more out of this one than , trapping bad and is animals suffering is why everything bad has happened on your life. I agree with the person that said coon man would be the best man for a debate with this fellow.

I am done with political correctness. I am not ashamed of who I am and what I do. I am done with people who think they ought to tell me how to live. When they do tell me my polite side gets wore down pretty quick.

Coonman 220 ( Dave) is the man for the job.

Edom.

If Petr's idea is to change peoples' minds by labeling them murderers it is a classic failure. I'm done following this thread.

Trapperman’s Russian Ambassador.

First I won't try to defend trapping or hunting it is used for game control and it works. But I do have a question for you okay? I think your beliefs are based on Gia the earth mother right? Is this the same one the Greeks and others of that time worshipped? If so you should go get a big mac or something to honor her because after a little looking I see where they not only had feast in her honor where they ate a lot of different types of meat but also sacrificed {black animals only } to her. They didn't tickle them to death but the usual throat slitting and cutting up kind of sacrifice. I hope I haven't crossed any lines with this but to be against something your diety says is okay is confusing to me . Thank you for your time.

Hey Petr, aren’t you the people that have to take pills because you lack certain proteins? Also so if you have to take pills in the future I guess you are a terrible person to earth. You lack logic bud.

I know how good it felt when my grandpa helped me catch my first muskrat. Also yes I’ve seen their face they are just scared of me because I’m a human. Then I shoot them. Most of the time they are already dead in a conibear. Also have you looked in the face of an animal because you can’t see the difference between a coyote and a fox.

So are you gonna actually debate or say stuff about us. Also, the animals are usually not in the trap for 24hrs because they are caught at night and retrieved in the morning or even late afternoon but still not 24hrs some traps kill right away? What about box traps. Give me scientific or logical evidence, not just your statements.

Also, I’d assume all your plants are planted or scavenged for with your bare hands, no cooking, or farming equipment.

So far Petr has
Called us murders
Said that earth gets back at us
Asked if we have looked in an animals eyes
Made statements that have no examples or proof to back it up
Not made 1 actual argument.

Good job petr way to liberate the animals

If he is a pantheist, he won't naturally work with facts as we tag them.
If he is a follower of the goddess Gaia, we all would be considered quite simplistic in our Western ways according to this theology.
Maybe he just likes yoga.

I'm currently studying on the 2nd floor of the 5th largest theological library in the world.
One main Book downstairs in the foyer entrance.

And 380,000 books written by man, here around me on 3 floors.

Petr, I should be able to find you some type of answer- if you honestly seek to increase your understanding of others - and why they are the way they are.


Blessings,
Mark

Let's hear that answer mark.

Like

smarter
better looking
tougher
more in touch with nature
smarter
better dressed
healthier
less gullible
smarter
... to name a few things.

I remember the last time Paul let an "anti" in here, If you're not paying attention to history, you're doomed to repeat it. A lot of you are getting sucked right in.

if i wanted to deal with anti's i'd a joined THEIR site,please remove me little boy dobbins,your dad would roll over in his grave.

Wow, really?

Looks like ptr hacked pcr computer.

aint enough actual trappers left here to make this place worth the while,my dad didn't give me everything to lose like Charles did with Paul apperantly.kiss the bunny huggers asss just dont work for me and it don't work for youz weither if ya'd admit the truth

[/quote]

smarter
better looking
tougher
more in touch with nature
smarter
better dressed
healthier
less gullible
smarter
... to name a few things.

I remember the last time Paul let an "anti" in here, If you're not paying attention to history, you're doomed to repeat it. A lot of you are getting sucked right in.
[/quote]

Good point ADC I haven't been around that long, so I don't know any better. Please forgive me, I will bow out.

I did admit it

P.S. I think of myself as real trapper even if others do not.

Don't let the door hit ya !

Who is kissing butt?

I’m not seeing it.

If you live in a vacuum with only your own beliefs, they don’t get tested and you lose your edge for defending them.

Relax Batman.

Batman must be off his meds.LOL.

I can't believe one moron has caused 13 pages of grief.

I'm still eating popcorn.
Still say we're being played.
Hard to type with buttery fingers. Lol

LIKE

Ok, u want arguments? Debate? I'll show u debate, but only a few at a time plz. I didn't agree to do this so I could run people off this site! How would you look in the mirror if an "anti" ran u off this site!? lol, lol. I[m only stating my opinions for u to consider. I won't call anyone a murderer anymore, if that hurts your feelings!! lol, lol

1. U say Nature is cruel. But that's no excuse for us to be cruel too. Enlightened human beings should not have to trap to live with Gaia. U don't need to kill and eat the animals u trap!!!

2. I bet most of u don't even eat them, just take their fur. Mostly for pure FASHION garments!!!

3. In this day and age, no one has to trap to survive.

4. What about the MAJORITY of peeps, who just want to view animals in nature? If u trap them all, what about them?

5. Most people don't want to wear animal fur. A little bit of petroleum product is better than a pile of dead animals.

You left out the part about coyotes eating calves and sheep. What's a rancher to do?
Nobody is going to trap them ALL.
Most can't afford to wear fur. It is very expensive. Because it is popular worldwide.

And now comes 13 more pages of trying to reason with a moron.

Number 4 gets me, I want to go with the guys that trap all the wild life to where they don't exist... They are good and I could learn alot! I mean it won't do me any good, because wildlife doesn't exist for me to trap!

Come on Petr, you seem like an intelligent person. I can't believe in times of pestilence like in the 14th century you wouldn't lift a hand to knock a flea ridden rat in the head and toss it in the fire. Or does your Mother Goddess not allow that?

We all love to see animals in nature. Regulated, lawful trapping has NEVER caused an animal to be driven to extinction. Although, trapping has helped bring animals back from extinction and has even helped to reintroduce and reestablish many species in many parts of the world.

We have to decide on a couple to debate him and they have to be willing.

Petr
Can you give us a time of the day that works best for you and how much time you can allow a day for this debate. I think one or two posts from you a day might be too slow a pace

Maybe a zoom meeting?

Have it moderated and microphones turned on by the moderator.

Lol

Would be interesting if it could be done through trapperman

You can’t reason with someone who’s “facts” are entirely based on emotion and assumptions. We are 13 pages in and this guy has yet to give us 1 solid proven fact.

Too bad you're no longer with us. You were in the running for the biggest post count - lol. For your info, he's not rolling at all. You have no idea of what you're talking about, and when you do, you'll be most embarrassed. Education is something dad placed a lot of emphasis on, in case you've not picked up on that. This is a good opportunity, but unfortunately you'll not be part of. As far as your comment about there not being any real trappers on here, I think you're delusional. There are many very good trappers on this site. Perhaps you should go over to that anti-trapperman-anti trapper site and give your all. Burned bridges leaves nothing but ashes. And you can't build crap on ashes.

1. I don’t have to live in peace with gaia don’t believe in it.
2. I will eat bobcat, and coon and if I trapped beaver I’d eat those also. I don’t wear fur because I have none to wear. Once I sell my hides I don’t give a dern what is done with them.
3. Maybe not. But I trap so other animals can live.
4. National parks are a great place with plenty of animals to gaze at I don’t trap national parks because it’s illegal.
5. Like I said I don’t have any fur to wear. Our fish and wildlife services study the time of year when the youn of the year are old enough to be on their own. That’s when we trap if I trap a baby I’ll let it go. Having a pile of dead animals is weird I don’t pile them up. Petroleum products are killing wildlife you aren’t doing them any favors.

I’m assuming you support PETA we they kill animals and don’t say they don’t it’s been proven. They take in strays and sick but if they are to sick or costing to much money to take care of they gas them and throw em in a dumpster.
I’m stating truth here if you don’t agree we can come to an agreement to disagree

It’s been pretty interesting. ”Grief”is for when you lose something or someone. Like when pcr lost his mind, then we lost him. My grieving time is over, now loneliness is setting in.

Also, if you’re logged in you only see 6 pages.


Have a goodnight everyone.

I have no problem discussing trapping with people who are willing to listen. I find that is more likely to occur when in person. The internet is where people come to have pishing contests, not debates. Time to lock the goats up for the night. Lots of predators around.

I will miss , "only pay for what need" uuuuuh a " pig castorater"

no more peeekers

I liked pcr2 its sad the resson he is gone is because of a anti poking around where he don't need to be stirring the pot ticking people off.Petr is the only one having fun watching this crazyness seeing how long a post he can make comes in and posts gets 2 or 3 pages and posts again he is playing us like a fiddle.If we don't start acting like adults and ignoring him he won't go away.There are pletty of real trappers on here BOCO ,BOB JAMISON,MARK JUNE, Paul Dobbins even DANNY I don't agree with him on politics but I like his flintlock posts any way back to the subject these are just a few I can think of and the sad thing is I think me personal most of us will be gone in 50 years and trapping will most likely be outlawed most every where and you and your kind will have your way and can go out hug your tree and look at all the animals that ain't there because mother nature had to step in and control them in the most cruel slow way of death possible but you don't care how an animal dies whether by man or nature you just think we should not be doing what we love to do guess you never herd mind your own business.I can't believe this happen'd I am going to have to take a break from here before I end up like pcr2. I also am a believe in Jesus and will continue to do so and my mind will not be changed in any way.

Petr
Im not the most well educated person as I grew up having to work rather than go to college. I worked over 30 years in public service and learned a great deal about people based on my training and experiences.
But Im still learning everyday that I’min the outdoors, learning about animals, nature and the world view on different subjects. I learn everyday from the trappers on this site, men and women with diverse backgrounds who are true outdoors men and women, conservationists who understand the role trapping holds in supporting healthy wildlife populations.

If you were to look at the archives here you would find out about people such as the late Jonathan Weber, who was not only an accomplished trapper but a lover of wildlife and nature. For many years his wildlife photography simply awed the members here and it still does today. You should take the time to look at his photography and marvel at it. He was a amazing man.
Then there is Sharon whom you have had different posts she submitted to you to attempt to present a valid logical and informed view from her experience and perspective. Miss Sharon is the perfect role model for the true outdoors woman for young women today.
She is a well known artist doing wildlife artwork for various magazines. Her art is perfection, and leaves one with the feeling they can tell what the animal is thinking when you look at it. Mr. Joe Goodman is another.

They are amazing artists who truly love nature, and God’s creatures. You don't find people such as this to be cruel and sadistic killers of wildlife. You can not achieve their level of expertise without having respect for that animal, knowing the animal and what it’s habits are. You only achieve that through being outdoors studying the animal so that you know everything about it the animal.

Unfortunately for you I can see from your posts that you came here with a closed mind, insisting and with the perverted belief you are the only one on the “moral high ground“.
Unfortunately for you, you have never gotten to experience the real world we live in, “Mother Nature” because of your biased views of life and others. You have been indoctrinated in your beliefs, brainwashed to believe what you believe.

As for myself and the others here, we believe that trapping is necessary to maintain healthy wildlife populations. There are way too many raccoons and fox in the area where I live. Due to it being a resort area on a barrier island with suburban sprawl there is not enough habitat trees for the raccoons. Our raccoons have adapted to living in attics & buildings instead of trees. With this going on we have raccoons born in an attic that have a better mortality rate than those born in a tree as nature intended. The result is more raccoons survive but due to the high overpopulation every couple of years the raccoon population is overcome by disease, rabies, parvo, distemper, mange and others are killed by vehicles on roadways. Fox are overpopulated due to the lack of hunting or trapping to help reduce their population to a healthy carrying capacity. They suffer the same fate. It is something truly sad to see a once beautiful animal slowly dying of a disease caused by overpopulation. Nature is beautiful but cruel.

Im a trapper and proud of it. I have been trained to utilize the “Best Management Practices” to utilize the correct and ethical trap for each animal. Animals are depending on the type of trap ether humanly killed when caught or are securely and humanely held. Old style of traps which Im sure you have seen from outdated pictures from anti organizations such as PETA and the Humane Society are not in compliance with BMP’s are not allowed to be used in order to prevent animal suffering and injury.

There are many members on this forum who I would love to know what they have forgotten about wildlife and the outdoors world, I would love to have had the chance to experience the beauty of nature that they have seen and continue to experience.
Have you ever been watching a creek flow by and get to watch a doe with it’s fawns feeding or seen a majestic bear or bull elk. These are some of what trappers get to experience while trapping.

It isn’t just random killing of animals and intentional infliction of pain and stress and suffering as you have been indoctrinated to believe. We are doing a much needed service providing for healthy future generations of wildlife.

I realize that no one on this forum, even our more learned and articulate members will not be able to find the words to get you to at least entertain a thought of looking at this from our side. We on the other hand, have looked at your side and viewpoint and found them to be pure hogwash, based on propaganda, fiction , outright lies by the uninformed and not proven by scientific research and testing. ( Heres a clue, look up BMP’s)
Trappers are continuously evolving, using better equipment and techniques and through forums such as this, constantly sharing their knowledge and “passing it on to others” to help us be better trappers, outdoorsmen and women and share the resources with belief in conservation and respect.

Your are entitled to your opinions and I’m entitled to mine. I and the others here have no problem blowing holes in your uneducated and uninformed view on something you have no idea what you are talking about.

Give it your best shot Petr. You wouldn't know “moral high ground” if you got ran over on it by a Prius full of vegan PETA protesters!

Best wishes to you
Leary Sink
Kill Devil Hills, NC

No Profanity *** No Flaming *** No Advertising *** No Anti Trappers *** No Politics
No Non-Target Catches *** No Links to Anti-trapping Sites *** No Avoiding Profanity Filter

As a side note, I think I will try Timber this year instead of backbreaker.

Paul, you mention that your dad put a lot of emphasis on education and I'm sure he did.. I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but who is getting educated by this thread. Petr obviously, by his comments will not change his mind, so in his head he is correct and does not need to be educated or is not willing to be. All of the members on here are of like mind in regards to trapping and disagree with Petr. So what is the take away? Again, not trying to make waves. I just don't see anyone getting educated by this.

No he doesn't.

Dang it pcr2. Why'd you have to go and leave? This social experiment isn't helping a thing.

Petr I'd still like to know what job you work for a living.?
And what's a livestock owner supposed to do about coyotes killing calves and sheep?

Being Petr is from Russia, makes you wonder if he is going to vote for Trump in November?

I've noticed we have Russian interference on this site now.

He's not answering this question cause he's in mom's basement and on the govt dole. He believes in greek mythology not Christianity. He's in imaginary lala land. No critical thinking allowed!

I teach my students one must know your opponent or enemy. I play the role in my class of any anti, trapper, hunter, fisher, farmer, dog owner etc. I read many writings and sites to be informed and educated to the best I can. I have and am learning from both sides here. My students encounter groups in our small rural WI area, at fairs where they show farm animals. We have have had animal liberation attacks in our area, wolf rights groups etc. One can learn if one is willing. I appreciate what Paul is attempting to do here. I have learned a great deal about members on here as well. Taking ones ball and running home to hide is not a solution. My first encounter with a PETA member I handled horribly in a public college setting. I learned and continue to learn. Thank you Paul.

It's hard to debate someone not knowing specifics such as age, career, etc. There is know true way to connect in a relationship that might truly change one's opinion.
P.S. Petr if you get the notion, pick up a Bible and read it. If you don't have one, I'll ship one to you if that is at all possible.

It just occurred to me! A bad thing happened to PCR2! We're doomed. He's going to pick each and everyone of us off one by one. Must.....stop.....trapping.....now!

Timber is a good choice. It's an excellent lure.

Let me take a shot at this I will live my life the way I choose because I live in a free country. You can live the way you want i could care less why do people think they need to change someone's mind. I am a taxidermist, trapper,hunter,Fishman and that's my life. Why do any of you trappers want to change his mind it's like someone who tries to talk someone into being saved. That is God's job your job you job is to share the gospel and your conversion. Trying to convince this person that trapping is right just adds fuel to his fight how about some starting a set picture thread and let this person fall to the wayside.

This about letting folks who have never encountered/conversed with an anti-trapping person see what we're up against. It's not about changing minds. This is what I meant about being educated. It's about exposing the mindset and rationale of such a person to those who have never seen/heard it. It's about education.

I understand that fully I guess what I was saying to everyone is instead of trying to change the person's mind just share with them why you trap. Don't retaliate to the your a murderer comments why does this person believe the way he does i don't know all I know is why I believe the way I do. That is because I grew up a saw the importance of management of wildlife. I grew up on a farm where we depended on the land and our hands to sustain us. Maybe this person never had this maybe they grew up in the city and out of a store. Or just maybe they did group on a fram and saw the butchering of animals and it upset them. To this person I would say if this is they way you feel or believe then that's fine for you a day you can live this way and the animals in your environment can live and you have done your part. I myself will live according to my beliefs and manage the wildlife in my environment and we can both hold our heads up. I to this person I don't want to change the way you think or even your views on wildlife management all i want you to see is the same applies from you to me.

Do you think you can educate James....so that he will vote for Trump Nov 3 ...?

Nope ain't gonna happen well there is hope.

I'm intresred to see the details of this experiment once they are revived. Having my views challenged and being able to articulately and rationally support and debate them makes me stronger.

I think I'm a real trapper maybe I'm delusional becuse I do only run a few dozen traps on a mixed line and only trap a few hundred acers mainly to reduce pest and teach my boys. O and I need a lot of work on my fur handling skills. Maybe I'm not a real trapper because I dont run a long wilderness line and live without electricity. I guess it depends on ones perspective.

I'm sad to see this turn of events. I'm guessing prc may be having some underlying personal issues that manifest and came out here instead of toward whatever else may have been bothering him.
It happens to me in September and October every year. I get down right salty over minor things when the real issue is subconsciously I'm thinking about my 16 month old son that was killed in an auto wreck October 7 2007. It takes a few weeks before I realize I'm loosing my composure once I recognize it I'm able to modify my reactions. It took several years to be able to recognize it thought. It may be something similar with him so if you look back on all he contributed over the years maybe you may find it in your heart to cut him some slack and reach out to him? I'm in no way telling you what to do just trying to provide some perspective from a newbie even though Its unsolicited and very well may not be wanted. I also probably don't have all the info and a limited perspective and try to keep that in mind.

I always try to see the positive after loosing a member but it's hard to see. Guess I won't untill the full details are revealed.
You can't build anything with ash but you sure can make soap with them( finding the positive?).

Respectfully Matthew

I hope this dosen't allow that ban hammer to find me.

Nessmuck
Boss dont let us cuss on here. Just say NO LOL

I was sitting here this morning and was thinking about this.
Well ok I had two brain cell hit together like a spark knock.

What if Paul was actually Petr and did this whole rigamarole to get us all thinking about anti’s.

Nawww, he wouldn’t do that.

Or would he?

Im like a lot of folks and had to get my backside off my shoulders and let my BP drop about 50 points, but I knew The Boss had a reason for doing this. Im glad now he did it. Rollaids had become my new best friend.
Hopefully everyones tempers will settle down and we wont have any one else jump overboard or let their mouth run before they engage their thinker.

Sometimes we win, sometimes we lose and sometimes we get rained out. One would think one could identify which position we are in, but its not always easy. As Providence Farm said , we get a feel for our composure over time and can identify where we are and make adjustments. I try to avoid locking or marrying a position to the point there is no way to change my mind. People do that a lot of the time because of pride or some other deep rooted notion. I often recognise that feeling in myself when I start getting that "King Kong" feeling. I learned when I get that feeling just not to leap, without a soft landing spot any way, lol.
A woman marries a man thinking she can change him and he don't change. A man marries a woman hoping she won't change and she does.

Some of the things that I finally changed in my life, I find that I'm too old to put it into motion and realize any value from it, and passing it on for others seems nil also. Because people have to learn for themselves.

Hey are you the kid who thinks I am hard on Yankees? Yeah well just so ya know, now Myside tells every noob to watch out for Leftlane. I owe ya a big thank you I guess b/c I am the rootin' tootinest super puncher on here and yall should know I got a broad foot an a narrow mind.

I swear you aggrivatin' so and so's are worse than tryna play cards with my sisters kids!

(Homework assignment- figure out where that quote came from, watch the movie, and learn how to be MEN)

BTW, check in later. It's Friday and I am feeling meaner'n a rattle snake stuck in a hay bale and I will probably pick a fight with Scuba 1 / Cotton/ and every dern Yankee dumb enough to doubt me tonight and some day they will all thank me each and every one of them b/c about half of them would prolly be getting sex changes by the end of the year if good hearted Texans like Savell and I don't keep reminding them it is ok to be a man even in 2020 LOL

Oh Lord I had to come back to see what Lefty said!

Ya’ll dont get him turned loose and tuned up today!

The nightmare has begun!

I have a feeling this is not what it seems.

Wild furbearer management and conservation is a complex subject steeped in science and biology.Trappers are the front line conservationists and the rest of society who enjoy the abundance of healthy wildlife populations for their own altruistic reasons should thank the dedicated wildlife managers with their boots on the ground(trappers) for our abundantly healthy ecosystems managed at an optimum carrying capacity by trappers for everyone's enjoyment.
Trapping in North America is highly regulated for the purpose of keeping wildlife at an optimum healthy sustainable level free from zoonotic diseases that have run rampant in the past before furbearer management was implemented.Diseases of all sorts devastated whole populations of animals in the past to the point where species were on the brink of extinction.Wild animal diseases often cross over to humans with equally devastating results(covid for example)Wild furbearer managers had the foresight to trap and relocate animals to save entire species and implemented regulations like seasons, quotas,licensing and trapper education to manage the populations at sustainable levels to prevent the devastating diseases from taking hold in the future in unmanaged populations of furbearers that were overpopulated.
In North America animal populations,habitat carrying capacities,and harvestable quantities of surplus animals have never been higher.
I doubt if Peter has any concept of wild furbearer management so In a nutshell-for peter-The land has a limited capacity to provide for a certain number of animals on the landscape long term.When the habitat is at optimum carrying capacity,there is a healthy population of animals with sufficient food and shelter opportunities.In spring these animals reproduce and more animals are now on the landscape.These extra animals will generally do well for the summer and even in the fall when the young disperse.This is when the resources become stressed from the influx of the extra animals.The older animals have an established home range which they defend against the dispersing juveniles seeking to establish a home range of their own to overwinter.Many of these animals will perish by late winter.Late winter is the leanest and harshest time on the landscape,and this is the time when the carrying capacity of the land is set and established.This is the time of year when the juvenile animals that have not been able to establish a home to sustain them die from starvation or disease.
The wildlife conservationist(trappers) role is to take the excess animals on the landscape that will not survive whether trapped or not in order to keep the population that remains healthy and in balance with the carrying capacity of the land.This paring back of the excess population is done in late fall and early winter which opens up areas for dispersing juveniles to establish home ranges for winter and/or take the excess juveniles that will not be able to find a place to live for winter because other animals are already there.Care must also be taken not to affect the breeding population responsible for reproduction by overtrapping or trapping at the wrong time of year(late winter,spring).

A good analogy is explained by the great wolfian bathtub riddle established by studies done by biologists in Algonquin park in the 50's and 60's.

Carrying capacity of the land was explained by picturing a bathtub tthat holds 300 gallons of water.From the 300 gallon mark to the 150 gallon mark there are a number of small holes drilled in the tub.The 150 gallons is the carrying capacity
The tub is filled with water up to the 300 gallon mark every spring.As soon as this is done,water slowly starts to leak out and will eventually leak down to the 150 gallon mark by the next spring.
Now if someone comes along and scoops out 10-20-30 or even 100 gallons of water out of the tub,after filling to 300 gallons ,the water will still leak down to the 150 gallon mark the same as it would if no water was taken out.
Now if more than 150 gallons of water is taken out say 250,then when you add the 150 gallons next spring the total will only be 200 gallons.This is equivalent to overharvest the seed animals affecting the animals available for harvest in the next year,maybe 2.

So as you can see the animals need to be kept in a balance to have the highest number of healthy animals on the landscape year to year available to harvest by the wildlife manager(trapper) to help pay for his job keeping the overall populations of the animals on the landscape in a prolonged healthy sustainable level in balance with the optimum carrying capacity as dictated by mother nature who provides surplusses that have to be used in order to keep the balance and the entire system healthy.
When things get out of balance like removing man as the top predator(manager) on the landscape then everything else suffers for it.

Just to add,a concientious wildlife manager(trapper) does not remove animals from the foodchain on the landscape.Trappers will "borrow" the animal only to take the fur(totally renewable natural resource). We will use the meat of some of those species that are suitable for human consumption as needed.The rest goes back into the food chain on the landscape,naturally,as part of the ecosystem.Many trappers often provide the carcasses to the animals long after trapping season in late winter when the times are lean and the carrying capacity is set-this will increase the carrying capacity of the land at this crucial time of year.

Better have that electric charge metered, LOL, I think a firefly puts out more amps, hee hee

I think What the Boss man did in letting that petr guy say his piece and have a dialog was straight up hospitable- It went on long enough- for everyone to say their piece-
After that , the Boss Man can do what ever he wants, It's His store- , Moving on!!


Be Kind too Others !

We keep LL's rattle snake teeth in the shop, in a pickle jar full of vinegar... right next to the shop vac.
We give 'em his teeth some days, and some days not, and still other days we turn the shop vac on full power, and suck 'em back up for his own good.

Leftlane is a wonderful example of passion in action.
Teeth or no teeth.

Blessings,
Mark

Great quote Left lane. Tombstone

I have killed a lot of fish and wildlife to support my family. Of course there is a lot of fish and wildlife to kill here since it is not a city. If you love wildlife, l don’t understand why you live in a city where the wildlife has been exterminated and the habitat destroyed? Just trying to learn.

FYI I can guarantee you I love wildlife more than you ever will.

Mr dobbins ain’t petr. BOCO is

I don’t think you are hard on yanks. Myside thinks you’re terrible apparently. I have some Michigan family and let me tell you it’s a different world up there!

Thank you Paul! He has been an annoying mosquito for a while.

Imagine if Mr. Dobbins had a moderator pretend to be Petr.

And you got so worked up over the situation you rage quit Trapperman.

Lesson I learned from "Petr"....


" Don't try and teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.” - anonymous

Trap the rats when they are thick, they might not be there next year, no matter what.

There's a certain romance of/in trapping, the fall of the year, apprehension of the next great catch and the money that will be made, given a good market. It's all about making money, and not answering to anybody. Independent of the "boss in the factory or on any job", doing your own thing, God of what you do and your surroundings but with respect to the nature of things in the renewable harvest paradigm .

I dont eat anything I catch, havent ever eaten a coon, muskrat, or beaver, or anything else, and recycle them back unto the land.

It's cultural, passed down through the generations.

I dont wear any fur, but I love my wool clothing.

Subsistence cultures have been under attack for along time now, in favor of socialism and controlled lifestyles.

And you got so worked up over the situation you rage quit Trapperman.

Lesson I learned from "Petr"....


" Don't try and teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.” - anonymous[/quote]

No, I don't have a moderator pretending to be Petr.

Doesnt take long for a "conspiracy theory" to pop up nowadays,lol.

Ok. Sorry.

Petr seemed so over the top I thought he might have been fake.

I very seldom post anything as the wisdom barrel passed by me when I was young and all I have learned is from corrections due to the wrong choices in life.

Very interesting thread to read and think about. One thing I have learned is when some one makes a statement I don't have to reply. Adrian Rogers, my hero, once said, "They have the right to be wrong."

Having been in the people business for over 45 years and have almost heard it all, I have come to a conclusion from hearing certain statements/opinions. If I had been born where they were, raised the way they were, subjected to what they have experienced, I would probably be more different and have stronger opinions than they are/have.

People say all kinds of statements. Unless the statement is about my wife, very few deserve answering. If they ask what is my opinion on the subject that gives me hope they are truly searching and then I will answer.

Mark June is right on target if it is spiritual warfare you must deal with it on that level and wisdom dealing with it must come from the Master.

Another hero of mine once said, "You can't fix stupid." Folks, I found out this is right on target and learned to save the energy for something constructive. So sorry to see one could not pass by the mud hole and he lost because of it.

At an early age in my Christian walk I would go visiting with an older Deacon. If we were invited in, he would kinda drop his bible on the coffee table and say, "Do you believe this is the Word of God?" Woe to the person who said no as the debate would start. We would eventually leave the home, sometimes asked to leave, and I'm sure the old Deacon would presume he had won the debate. But, we would leave with the folks in the house still lost and with out the knowledge of Christ. It is so easy to win the battle but loose the war.

Petr, You have strong convictions, state very strong "This will happen to you statements." Sorry sir, they are just opinions and amount to nothing.

Thank you Paul for what you have completed. What we have seen completed here is, what we also teach our children about how to handle life and crisis in the work place. May I examine my attitude and the way I teach others by what I say and express.

TrapperKent

Seems to be a number of theories going on , though the thought of a moderator playing that role wouldn't come into my mind in a million years - interesting

Good of you to apologize , but an apology also given to the moderator would be most appropriate , I'm sure ... eh, "comrade" ??

Lol. I doubt I hurt his feelings. If so, I do apologize. He is clever enough to pull it off is more what I meant

I didn't mean to imply anyone was doing anything wrong, just it was an interesting lesson in human nature.

Oh I see what you mean now, Levi. Yes , human nature , honed by education has been fascinating, especially in these types of subjects. And trying to ascertain tone inflection and sound into writing alone , makes communications even more challenging at times !

" The cruelest thing we can do to wildlife is to fail to manage it"
Quote from the front cover of The Fur Taker magazine.

just

Trying to figure out who Petr is, is like trying to figure where Paul's pint of Backbreaker is.

Im not going to debate any antis (or uncles) but one thing has been in my mind since reading his comment that had to do with why do we trap and looking into a trapped animals eyes. One of the reasons I trap, and trap/hunt wolves in particular is because I have looked into the eyes of several moose in my life with half a hind quarter gone, nose torn off, rectum gone, ears ripped off, and still standing with no fresh wolf tracks to be seen. Ive seen valleys with 20-30 dead reindeer calves with only the heads eaten. But I don't kill wolves in anger or spite. Theyre just being wolves. To me its just what we have always done and will continue to do as long as there are wolves. Very straight forward in my eyes.

Anyone else notice how this guy just repeated him self and goes after the easiest seeming prosts that he can try to break down with his logic and avoiding everything else like the plague

Best post I've seen on the whole thread. I'm afraid it falls on deaf ears tough. The guy is simply running off his emotions. I don't believe he is one to listen to any reasonable conversation. Says he's on the high road. However when you revert to name calling. " Murderers" He has no meaningful argument.

Interesting.

Who would have time for something like that? Even Paul has a life away from trapperman I'm sure, lol.

Its always the "Grassy Knoll".

He spends his days mashing grapes for wine then takes his shoes off and climbs into a vat of skunky Backbreaker and mashes that around a little while. Probably smokes a good cigar then fills orders awhile while sipping Skeeter Pee & Backbreaker.
Then he will go out in typical Dobbin’s fashion declare a jihad on beavers somewhere in Eastern NC.

Ok Petr. You say you are a follower of Gaia.
You would use a non-renewable resource( crude oil) to make a fashion statement
And no one can use a renewable resource( the animals of mother earth) for anything
Please explain

Now all Yinz have some first hand experience.....on what Russian Interference is .....

Things must have improved a lot in Russia since the collapse of the Soviet Union. They used to worry about thier own suffering, not the animals they wish they could eat. Millet again!

Hey Paul maybe Petr can come to the Bland convention in October and there he can finally understand.

Excellent, point. But he will never address it.

Infact we are much closer to living near Gaia and with Gaia being a part of the natural world.

"ascertain tone inflection" ?!?!? Those are some awful big words. Did you go to college or something?

Last I knew Russia was so poor that folks had to use fur blankets as they couldn't buy heating oil. I'm sure Petr is a rich little prik that has had everything handed to him except common sense.

BUT Mr. Boco what if u plug up those holes...some of them...so the water stays more in the tub? Then the tub has more carrying capacity right?

Someone said they feed the carcasses back to nature...plugging the holes. Why not plug most of the holes by feeding the animals through winter?

Instead of all the money u spend on trapping (and hunting, another vile sport) why don't u help pay for feed stations to help the animals through winter?

PLUG those holes!!!

Like I said "LALA LAND" no comprehension of carrying capacity or any rational management practices!!! He's stuck on ignorant mode.

You start feeding animals, they turn into modern humans; dependant on handouts. Boco may be that cruel, but not me. Probably why it is illegal here.

Because petr we WORK for our money! It’s ours! We can do with it what we want. Other animals have the opportunity to eat I’m taking animals out of the population which gives other animals a chance to eat and I feed the rest to my dogs or myself. It’s going to make me and my dogs stronger. It’s good for dogs to have wild meat. What do your pets eat?

Feeders can be automated, right? No real handout.

Don't deer hunters use automated feeders?!! I heard they do, so there will be more deer to slaughter.

Petr, you should be more like this guy.

Your not plugging holes at that point your just patching them so more water builds and when it finally burst instead of a drip your going to have the bottom fall out. Just give up and admit you have no real desire or care to learn or truly debate. Again your working off of emotion and short term thinking at best.
Your cherry picking the easiest parts of all these arguments you can somewhat argue and not looking at any of the others. Honestly I could print out all the reverent responses and your questions and give them to actual open minded people and most of them who don't work purely off of emotion and are non biased will say what I just stated.

So you are not biased, I suppose!!

If u don't like the way I debate, too bad. I don't like the way u go on and on about who's biases...when we all are!!!

So Petr, what would you feed a meat-eating coyote so they don't get hungry?
Paul, you screwed up badly here.

Putin says fish on!

Petr what would you feed a starving dog???

400,000 coyotes a year murdered in the US each year and the numbers are growing. What do you feed a meat-eating animal without killing another animal?

People push emotional buttons for one reason only. To see the reaction. When they don't get a reaction, it takes the fun away and they soon quit.

Putin, sporting the fur.

This here is an exercise in futility and stupidity. Ignore and IT
will go away. Come on folks... not worth it.

Incorrect,You only kick the problem down the road if you do that,it is the opposite of taking too much and harming the breeding stock.The animals quickly become overpopulated beyond the carrying capacity of the land and since the extra animals also reproduce, you soon have a disaster on your hands.The animals get to a point where they harm the ecosystem resulting in a diminished carrying capacity for all those animals now on the landscape.Now nature will strive to return the balance thru starvation and disease and it will be many many years of hardly no animals on the landscape before the habitat begins to come back where it is capable of sustaining a healthy population,in balance once again.Man can in no way sustain artificially high numbers of animals for any length of time.We have to work within natures limits.Trappers however can and do help increase the carrying capacity of a trapline for some carnivores by providing the animal carcasses he has taken earlier in the season.This will insure optimum reproductive sucess for these species to help keep the natural balance and provide sustainable harvest optimums for consumptive use.
This is what happens when mans role in nature as the top predator is abolished.The balance is out of whack.If mans role as top predator is reversed and he actually starts artificially sustaining animals on the landscape without doing his duty to take the excess as provided each year the collapse will be more severe and prolonged with many animals suffering horribly and unneccesarily,for no reason.Mother Nature WILL take over in a very harsh and ruthless manner.

Trappers help out animals in late winter in order to increase the carrying capacity to a degree to insure a good future harvest that is sustainable at a time when animals need body fat to assure reproductive success.
Man is an intergral part of the web of life and has been since time immemmorial.Man has the role of top predator in natures web and this role is a responsibility that trappers take seriously.
Modern city people are far removed from nature and have become mere observers.Trappers are actually participants in the natural scheme of things a role man has always held and will always need to do.
Once animals are no longer managed as a renewable natural resource with value,they will become nuisance vermin and will be destroyed en masse by people living in the cities when they encroach.
This is how wildlife is treated in europe today.Millions of beautiful muskrats are killed and left to rot in the netherlands nowadays since man has not held up his role as a wildlife manager.Instead of providing a sustainable harvest of beautifully warm clothing for people and managed at a sustainable healthy balanced population,man has stepped aside and now what was once a valuable resource to be treasured has become a disease ridden infestation to be thrown on the trash heap.

Get him learned up Mr. Boco....but i doubt he hears.

Well crap, finally have the gumption to say it.
Been following without saying a word as I'm on Paul's chopping block ( walking on thin ice)

I KNEW from page one this was gonna be a crap show!!
I seen zero good from it.with all the good people axed from this site for speaking their mind, I cannot fathom how far this thread has evolved?


I've been a member of Predator Masters for years and watched its demise over this same type of thing.
No Paul, you can't please everyone. This site has a HUGE audience and other then a small minority, we mostly want the same things in life.

We wanna hunt,trap,fish and basically want to do we wanna do.
Some of us (the Forum)like to tell our stories and experiences with like minded people.

You have several times given me a " vacation "over stepping the "rules of this board.yet one rule is
" No Antis"
Is Petr not one?

Ok, back to my corner.

Petr I don't see you plugging your hole or holes depends witch end you talk out of
^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ This is what I put in a my last post ignore him and he will go away

Before you argue with
someone, ask yourself, is that
person even mentally mature
enough to grasp the concept
of a different perspective.

Because if not, there's
absolutely no point.

Author Unknown

Speaks better English then most Americans and types it also. Alt-Shift to Some Russian dialect or I call B.S. on this Fake account.

Alt-Shift- I wanna see some Russian Cyrillic.

This thread is like some disease that you just can't stop clicking on.

Petr: have you ever studied cycles especially using Phi numbers and rodents. Here in the U.S. during the dust bowl days rabbits would multiply so fast they would devour everything in their path. Surely you are aware of locust and grasshoppers and the havoc they cause when left unchecked.

So in believing of your Goddess is their any organized groups of people and a book or set of rules you go by, or are you just an individual that just kinda makes stuff up as you go along?

You need all the help you can get

I know its all you see when you get on here top of the page.

Your not plugging holes at that point your just patching them so more water builds and when it finally burst instead of a drip your going to have the bottom fall out. Just give up and admit you have no real desire or care to learn or truly debate. Again your working off of emotion and short term thinking at best.
Your cherry picking the easiest parts of all these arguments you can somewhat argue and not looking at any of the others. Honestly I could print out all the reverent responses and your questions and give them to actual open minded people and most of them who don't work purely off of emotion and are non biased will say what I just stated. [/quote]

So you are not biased, I suppose!!

If u don't like the way I debate, too bad. I don't like the way u go on and on about who's biases...when we all are!!!
[/quote]

I never said I wasn't hence why I said if I showed this to people who are non biased. Sonrandom computer nerd or house wife who could give two cares either way as an example. And I never said I don't like anything I simply pointed out what's going on. And as usual your cherry picking and working off of emotion which isn't a debate. You ever seen an actually debate team or a scientific debate? Emotion is a mute point . And some of my pagan watch wishing friends I talked to about the manner said it seems your one of the practiconers who truly don't understand how the world and nature works.
We give you answer after answer reason after reason in this "Debate you wish for " many of us have tried to be more than curious and respectful but you simply keep regurgitating the same thing. You haven't been able to quote a scientific study, a well documented phenonomon, or anything like that in your favor. You just run through on emotion and speaking on your ideals and beliefs. Its basically like me going up to you and saying "gay people get aids because my Bible say their sinners and I don't think it's good" even though you have scientific evidence and more experience than I could ever to come to the conclusion I'm wrong.

Another point I wish to make,Wild Furbearer management(trapping) is not a sport.It is a profession and a way of life particularly for Canadians and other rural people.
It is a healthy lifestyle steeped in tradition and a noble tradition it is indeed.There are traplines in Canada that have been managed by generations of trappers from the same family and the same numbers of animals are harvested year after year from the same trapgrounds,records of beaver harvests that go back over 70 years indicate healthy sustainable harvests year in and year out because of proper conscientious management by the familys that take their role as stewards of the land seriously.One small Trapline in the North Bay area showed records of 50 beaver a year harvest for 60 years every year.And the landscape still supports beaver in the same harvestable numbers.
Trapping is a free enterprise self sustaining activity that provides income and bread and butter for families that depend on the animals for sustenance as well as income,whether that income is supplementary or seasonal it is important necessary income for rural people who wish to live on the land and with nature.In no way are these people going to harm their trapgrounds by either overharvesting or underharvesting natures bounty.Their life as they live it depends on the animals that they love dearly.

" "Happy People: A Year in the Taiga" is a 2010 documentary film directed by Werner Herzog and Dmitry Vasyukov and produced by Herzog.[2] The film depicts the life of the people in the village of Bakhta (62.464463°N 89.002168°E) at the confluence of the Yenisei and the Bakhta River, in the Siberian taiga. In particular, it focuses on the Russian trappers who hunt for fur animals, such as sable. "

I don't believe the person is Russian. Not for a minute.

Why are y’all letting this guy/gal get under your skin? He doesn’t agree so be it. A lot of things I don’t agree with, but life goes on.

Petr: I know you are getting more questions thrown at you than seems possible to respond to, but are you an active member in VITA?

I never said I was Russian. Im American, recently moved to Russia too be near my love, who I met in college. I have one more semester to go, but couldn't stand being apart from my love!!!

Lucky her DAD gave me a job, but it's a good job I don't have to do much. Supposed to be learning Russian but that's a hard language!!!

But what does that have to do with the issue? Trapping is cruel, you know it, so you chase me around.

Nobody has answered about those deer feeders. What are they for if not to increase the capacity of the land!!? If u can feed deer, why not other animals?

Deer feeders are illegal here. Concentrates them too close and transmits disease.

Be bad for the non-existent coon market if Russians were getting soft on fur. Just another American bunny hugger. No market here anyway.

But Petr If you are feeding them they are not wild animals anymore. That's why.

just

Figures.

Deer feeders are for luring deer into a certain area. They are not for feeding the deer. Like any animal, if they get dependant on the feed for their main source of food, they are basically getting domesticated. If you don't continue to feed them they will starve. So, to answer your question, deer feeders are used to bait deer into shooting range. Nothing more and nothing less.

I don,t believe even James could hold a candle to this nonsense.

This is ridiculous there are 19 pages! He only has 14 posts! Not even enough for a whole page! It’s like a Mary-go-round

Sorry yall I gotta give it up to boco.Eaven tho he's a dang Canadian. Suprised no one has said anything about how well worded his posts where and his description of a trapper and why some peopel trap.all of us trap for diferent reasons but if all of us would be honest with ourselves most of us would love to trap for reasons as boco has said. As for petr, you can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink it

Okay, I'm going to end this. I just hope some of y'all who've never dealt with an anti-trapper was able to see what we're up against. That was the whole mission of letting Petr on.

Sorry Petr, but I think it's time for you to go. Thank you for your service to my goal.