NEW ... NAFA Letter ... Just received.

Uh oh!

Anyone can fall on hard times but that doesn’t sound good

[quote=Actor]
Sounding more and more like the end of NAFA will be coming sooner than later

got that same lame email too, how did they finance my fur check, it wasn't theirs to spend or use it's mine?... Can I get my furs back that were consigned and not sold?

I'll keep shipping just to help them out.

Trade in gold from now on.

Has anybody considered a class action suit against NAFA on behalf of the consigners?... This stinks of illegal

Go for it DIRT I'm done w/ their BS

You will be suing yourself.

Where is the like button ?

Hey DIRT how much volume you got there?

I still have an uncashed check. I might frame it.

a couple road kill weasel and a house cat

I only got my rebate from 2014 there plus a some lost weasels. I baled early.

Or are you that guy that skins squirrels for .25

Just shut trunk up then

I think the only folks that would benefit from this would be the lawyers, on both sides. Lawsuits are expensive,especially since you would be dealing across borders.

Hey Les I'll be framing mine as well maybe have it laminated and send to Groeny to slap on his rig...

Interesting how it went from a simple misunderstanding during a bank switch, to now they are looking for financing. This doesn't look promising.

It's right above your common sense button les, you ain't found that one so there's no hope lol.

I'm shocked!! I thought someone on here (or two) said it was all just bad gossip and not to worry..... or is this just another accidental mistake again that will be taken care of.

Well that explains boco departure ......and now you have the rest of the story

Not what they were saying at first is it.

Did anybody receive their shipping tags for this coming season yet?

I guess they printed them checks out fully knowing they weren't no good?

1989
As a result, in February 1987, the Hudson’s Bay Company sold the Canadian fur auction business to the Canadian Fur Division management group and its supporting fur producer groups, Canada Mink Breeders Association (CMBA) and Canada Fox Breeders Association (CFBA). The new company was named Hudson’s Bay Fur Sales Canada Inc. and continued the 300-year tradition of Hudson’s Bay in the fur trade.

1992
In June 1989, the company also purchased Hudson’s Bay Company’s New York auction business, and operated it out of the New York area under the name Hudson’s Bay Fur Sales New York Inc.

2000
With the purchase of the New York auction, the American Mink Council (AMC), the mink breeder organization in the U.S.A which supported the auction, became partners with CMBA and CFBA in the ownership of the business in 1992. The Company also changed its name in 1992 to North American Fur Producers Marketing Inc. and the combined auction activities of the two companies are now conducted under the trade name “North American Fur Auctions.”

Today
On May 2, 2000, exactly 330 years after the issuing of the charter of Incorporation for the original Hudson’s Bay Company, the NAFA Wild Fur Shippers Council (WFSC), representing the ownership interest of Canadian and American trappers, completed the circle with the purchase of shares in NAFA.

NAFA is 100% owned by these four producer groups.

The American Mink Council (AMC) is a not for profit organization representing American mink ranchers that joined the North American Fur Producers Inc (NAFPI) in 1992 to become part owners of NAFA and hold seats on the NAFA Board of Directors.

The European Fur Farmers Council (EFFC) represents and is made up of European mink ranchers. Although the EFFC is not a shareholder of North American Fur Producers Inc., it holds a seat with voting privileges on the NAFA Board of Directors.

The Canada Mink Breeders Association (CMBA) is a non-profit association that was founded in 1952 and is comprised of Canadian mink farmers. The CMBA is a member of the North American Fur Producers Inc. by which NAFA is owned and hold seats on the NAFA Board or Directors.

The Canada Fox Breeders Association (CFBA) is a part owner of North American Fur Auctions Inc. and a non-profit organization designed to represent the interests of Canadian ranched fox producers


NAFA established the North American Wild Fur Shippers Council (NAWFSC) in the Fall of 1996 to enhance the working relationship between the company and its wild fur producers. The North American Wild Fur Shippers Council gives trappers a strong voice in NAFA’s operations and is a meaningful way of making that partnership even stronger. Today, the North American Wild Fur Shippers Council leadership consists of an eight-member Board of Directors, collectively representing a vast amount of experience acquired through direct participation at every level of the trapping industry across North America.

North American Fur Producers Inc is a privately held company in Etobicoke, ON and is a Headquarters business.
Categorized under Bank Holding Companies. Current estimates show this company has an annual revenue of 7964800 and employs a staff of approximately 66.

Holding companies may protect a business owner's interests by minimizing exposure to risk and by keeping creditors at a distance all the while reaping the benefits of the operating company's goodwill. Subject to certain rules, you can remove cash from an exposed operating company to a holding company on a tax free basis. Business owners can take risks through the operating company and limit risk to the operating company alone rather than exposing the holding company. This is because the holding company performs no transactions and therefore does not move cash and other assets around. The holding company is exposed to risk only to the extent of its investment in the operating company. If a holding company lends money to the operating company, it can secure the debt and become a secured creditor of the holding company. This gives the holding company priority when it is time for the debt to be repaid.

So does this mean I shouldn't expect to receive my Top Lot hat anytime soon?

I heard boco and herman Jensen are on a yacht somewhere over by China.

That is not true. They printed and mailed the checks assuming the bank would cover them, as they have for the past how many sales. The bank pulled the plug when the account ran out of cash, contrary to the financial arrangements NAFA had with the bank. True story.

What account ran out of cash?

NAFA must have lost my e-mail address. I don't get these "updates" anymore. I guess I'll have to re-work my 2018/19 coon averages, the last 6 sold are just AWOL and now presumed lost.

In the USA its a crime for a sale company working off of commission to ever be short funds in the custodial account since it's the customer's money.

Ps the bank covered the checks in the past because the WAS money in the account....

The question still seems to be "what" are they financing? Are they putting out large sums of advances to mink ranchers?

When NAFA sells fur on commission the money for the pelt minus the commission, fees and any other deduction is the customer's not NAFA's. So that money that is the customer's money from the time of sale is put in a custodial account (because it's not NAFA's its legally the fur sellers but NAFA is the custodian of it until the owner claims it by cashing the check) and when the customer's money doesnt make it into that account it's considered stolen by law. Bank's cant even touch that money because it's the customer's. NAFA going broke is one thing the CUSTOMER'S being gone is stealing the way I see it.

I said that on another page days ago but wissmiss and others straightened me out......

How many trust attorneys have ended up going to jail and/or being de-barred because they "borrowed" from their client's accounts. "But I was going to pay it back, I swear!..."

Question? Being a business don't they have accountants that are supposed to keep track of that sort of thing? And also in their letter they said what happened to there new plan wasn't important but I would think in view of what has happened they should explain to you guys what is going on. I wonder about small buyers that sell most of what they buy up there. How hard in view of this will it be to get a good price this year.

I've spend the majority of life in the auction business, I'm not sure of the laws in Canada but bet they are similar, and I doubt a company that large could get by without a separate custodial account.

I am sounding the alarm. Nafa's done. Heard the electricity was shut off. There broke. Can't squeeze blood from a turnip. No money to pay back bad checks either.

Has anybody checked on coonman?

Sure, why not, lol

And what of unsold fur they supposedly have ??

Yes Sir, google Plainville Kansas Livestock Auction, same deal happened there this year. Its ugly and only going to get uglier for those that have bad checks. There talking the guys that sold cattle that day may at best get 20 cents on the dollar when all is said and done.

How do I get shipping tags from FHA? Never sold through them

You know what happens when you assume right? That’s like me mailing a check for my mortgage knowing I had no cash in my checking account and hoping my bank would cover for me until payday. If that’s how NAFA was being run it deserves to die. If I receive my promised check in early November I’ll be shocked.

Haven't been following it that close but did hear about it when it first went down and charges were filed. It's happened at a couple of other barns in Ks in my lifetime. My now X brother in law got caught playing loose with the custodial account once, he had enough money to cover the "mistake " at the time so no charges just a stout fine.

this is not good for any of us, just sad to see , my 90 year old dad my be right about the fur market that it will never come back to what it was , end is coming soon .

May be time for local groups and or the NTA to get involved.

Markets are always evolving and changing. The trappers and fur farmers who learn to adapt with the market will do well.

Why did the direct deposits all go through but not the cheque’s if the broke?

It’s possible that this could be a good thing for trappers. Buyers that once bought at nafa auctions may now come to state association run auctions to fill orders, bringing commissions to our local associations instead of nafa, giving them more cash to promote and defend the fur business from anti trapping laws.

I’m just a dumb roustabout though, I’m probably wrong.

wonder what kind of bonuses management has pulled out of the business in the last two or three years? Gibb sure has been quiet on here ,where is he? I sure wanted to long line this Fall for Coyotes now I don't know. I sure hope not to many buyers and trappers/hunters were wiped out by this.

The next letter that will come to us will be that their electricity was accidently shut off and all of the fur fur they have been holding in the freezers spoiled and they had to put them in dumpsters and have them hauled off to the landfill.

Here is a word that comes to mind after reading the series of BS letters they have put out in the last 3 or 4 months ………………..


What is the meaning of 'kiting'?

Kiting is the fraudulent use of a financial instrument such as a check to obtain additional credit that is not authorized. There are two variants of kiting: The act of misrepresenting the value of a financial instrument for the purpose of extending credit obligations or increasing financial leverage.

Garry-

Well if you ever shipped up there ever or not this is going to have a effect on your wallet.

Have you ever read a NAFA report that wasn't total BS? It's not called NAFAese for nothing. "Increased clearance at new levels"= we dumped your fur for nothing, but we still get the drumming fee. And we'll make you an offer you can't refuse- the NAFA magazine.

x2

Where did you hear that?? I don’t think that is 100% true.

NAFA is a tough spot now but I honestly believe they are trying their darnedst toget this resolved.

As to where the money is and why banks are involved, see my post on another thread about prompt date and buyers accounts not paid in full, etc.

If you know all of the facts and understand how the fur auctions operate, you would understand what caused the current situation.

If the buyers still have the same need for our furs, this might not be as bad as it first seems. Those using NAFA will just have to use another outlet to get their furs to the buyers.

I don't think any trapper, who knows of this mess, will ship to NAFA this year.

I sadly suspect that the trappers who NAFA owes, will at best likely get a tiny fraction of what they are owed, after a long wait, as NAFA comes out of bankruptcy.

Keith

I have not heard that NAFA is actually in bankruptcy. They are still trying to work this out.

To say that NAFA is done. That NAFA is bankrupt. Is only adding fuel to the fire.

I for one am willing to give them more time to work this out. And yes, i do “have skin in the game.”.

.


Wissmiss:

You gave a good explanation of how things work with NAFA. But, having been to many auctions through the years, whether it be Real Estate, Estate auctions, or Fur Auctions; there are a few important things I have learned.

1. Nothing sold at an auction is to leave the auction site , until paid for in full. When NAFA sold the furs to the winning bidders, did those bidders take possession of those furs prior to paying for them in full ?

2. Since NAFA buyers finance their fur purchases through NAFA, and the bank that worked with NAFA pulled the plug with the financing; how is NAFA going to get those furs back from the buyers, assuming the buyers already have the furs in their possession ?

3. The financing part: Those buyers should have come to the NAFA auction with their own financing already in place. Not expect NAFA to do it.

4, If NAFA still has furs left unsold in their auction house, is there any recourse for the Trappers and Fur buyers that shipped furs to NAFA , to get them returned if worst case happens that NAFA is unable to secure financing ?

I will gladly eat crow if what I am saying is wrong. But to answer where I heard this from, well, I basically heard this from nafa.

1. Goods do not leave the NAFA warehouse until they are paid for in full. That is in the conditions of sale. I have no idea if they make exceptions to that or not. I know of in most cases, the goods sit there until they are paid for. And the buyers are charged interest and some times storage.

2. The unpaid for pelts are still at a NAFA facility. At some point they can be reoffered for sale but since this has all happened fairly recently and if the buyer has paid a deposit, NAFA is obligated to hold those unpaid for goods as per the condition of sale. They can’t just decide on the spur of the moment to resell them.

3. As far as financing goes, remember that many of these buyers are from countries other than the US or Canada. Countries such as Russia, China, Korea, Greece. Maybe it is easier for them to finance through NAFA than it is through an instruction in their country.

4. I don’t know the answer to that question. In the case of dealer goods that aren’t intersorted,it should be fairly easy to return them. In the case of intetsorted goods, since everything is bar coded, it would be possible to figure out which pelts belong to which shipper. Figuring that out would be tedious and time consuming but it could be done.

IF in fact NAFA is done, then the courts will step in and they most likely will have the final say as to what happens to the unsold inventory. In theory, those pelts belong to the shipper. Who knows how the courts will see it.

Mink99 - guess I must have talked to a different person at NAFA. What I heard is that they are still trying to work things out with a different bank.

I like what I heard better than what you heard.

I wonder if the details of how NAFA operates is similar to FHA's rules and procedures

Probably. Which of FHA’s rules / procedures are you referring to?

And even now some will defend their actions as though they did nothing wrong. Anyone who sends fur to them now will be shown to be a fool. Those defending them almost certainly did not get a bad check..LLL

If they cant get a line of credit its because banks don't like the way they are doing business. Banks are in business to loan money. Usury is their business plan. If they don't make loans they don't profit. Like every other business they exist only to profit. Banks WANT to loan money. I don't understand why an auction company would be in the loan business. If that isn't a risky endeavor what is? Loan money that was borrowed from another business?

It is pretty simple to me. We are all human and make mistakes. I hope NAFA gets lined back out. I hope they have some better ideas now.
I am losing optimism though. What happened to "you will get your money in OCT".?

How do you charge buyer commissions, seller commissions, drumming fees, magazine fees, and c.i.t.e.s. fees but still can't pay your bills. All this talk about its other peoples fault is nonsense. NAFA is responsible for poor business decisions. Not a bank, not a mink farm or anyone else.

It is entirely possible that the bank pulled the rug because NAFA is in the fur business. Something many folks consider immoral and there is a combined effort among many banks to quit doing business with firearm and or fur related business. Plenty will though. If the rug were pulled because of moral belief there would still be banks more than happy to extend a line of credit so long as they thought profit would be the result.

worst thing you can do is lie to me,even if you consider it just bending the truth,i don't.

Fact is if NAFA goes under the value of this years catch will go down. All fur buyers will be lowering there offers because of uncertainty in the market. It is in everybody’s best interest for nafa To survive this same problem can happen to every major fur buyer as they all operate on credit

Like danny said, there are troubling reasons why the banks are avoiding or have bailed on NAFA. Those reasons are likely unique to NAFA's financial situation and not the fur industry as a whole. So far, we have no indication that NAFA's problems are anything more than NAFA's problems. In other words, it's not good news for the industry because it may lose a major player, but that does not -- by itself -- signify the fur industry is following the same path.

By the way, the bankruptcy rumors over the summer might have had more legs to them than we thought.

It has been said that furs do not leave the NAFA warehouse until they are paid for.So they either were paid for YOUR furs and something happened to the money or they have YOUR furs and under the state of affairs should send them back.Years ago I worked in the auction trade and nobody left with the merchandise until it was paid for.

Never and I have been at this for a long time. NAFA could make $ teaching politicians how to lie out both sides of their mouth at the same time.

So I keep seeing that buyers can put down 35% and finance the rest and if they don't pay in full, NAFA keeps the fur. They've already paid (or at least written a check, good or bad) the trapper on the prompt date, but what about when the buyer doesn't pay the remaining 65% and NAFA keeps the fur? I imagine they offer it for sale again to try and recoup their loss. Now NAFA has paid trappers with money they dont have. That doesn't work for long. I don't know how often it happens that buyers don't pay up, but if it happens even a few times, that puts them in a tight spot.

NAFA does not lose in your above deal They win. They get to keep the 35% and sell the fur again for 100% of it's value.

I get that, but they've already paid out the missing 65%, and have to hold that fur until the next auction of hope it sells PT. In the meantime, they must have financed that money they paid out to trappers that wasn't paid by the buyer. Right? Their inventory is flush, but they're cash poor.

Wonder how many dealers are going to be in a bind over this.

PANTS ON FIRE !!!! NAFA!!!!

w

Read Terry Manleys post on facebook this morning. Sad

BOHICA

w

Schadenfreude. Turn that frown upside down.

From what I have read here and other places, it sounds like a cash flow squeeze when the buyers didn't pay up on time but they still had to pay trappers. NAFA can charge all they want in fees and interest to the seller who doesn't pay on time, but if they don't ever pay, it doesn't mean anything really.

My guess, and this is only a guess, is the bank that usually put up their syndicated line of credit didn't like the credit worthiness of the buyers that were supposed to pay and NAFA doesn't have the horsepower to do it all on its own, so didn't want to renew the line until that gets sorted out. Sounds like NAFA went to another bank to arrange the line, and it didn't happen in time. I would assume they are still negotiating. I would think they would get this sorted out and probably require buyers coming in to post letters of credit from their bankers to support their purchases going forward. This adds expense to everything, but it also makes sure that everyone gets paid. Especially when you are dealing with buyers from all sorts of different countries.

Not sure Canada, but in the US, going into bankruptcy could actually help until they get it sorted out under a reorganization. I would doubt they would go into bankruptcy under a liquidation. So far it doesn't sound like they have done that, so I suspect they still have the ability to make an arrangement with the new bank and be in business going forward.

I guess we will see.

-TJ

i heard it was Trumps fault.

In my mind it all boils down to...

NAFA is in financial trouble

NAFA generates revenue by commission

The depressed market coupled with the assumption that the effect of this will be less sellers shipping will reduce their revenue even more.

I can’t see them getting out of this without an improving fur market (and there’s no sign of that).

Presently, the industry is probably in its “Great Depression”. I’m no historian, but has there every been a worse time?

NAFA's problems all started with Walleyed getting a free dvd from Jim Gibb.

don't forget the informative newsletter.

Gibb never did give me a Free DVD.

Gibb wanted my name and address and I wouldn't give it to him.

Gibb was mad because I didn't want that International Trapper rag at $10.00 a pop.

Looks like Gibb should have stayed at FHA.

BOCO, where have you been hiding ?

w

FHA will have to hire back a few graders laid off at nafa to handle the extra fur.
I got booted for bad language,just normal canuck talk but offensive to some.Have to be more politically correct on here.
I keep forgetting this aint Canada.

Ranch market is to blame, I guessing 70 per cent nafa bussiness is ranch

poor management is to blame!

Welcome back, BOCO.

Nafa is so broke that they can't pay bills of a few hundred dollars. I mean there is basically no money to be had. Also found out that nafa lied about how much wealth they had in the first place.

I just hope all the guys that said "ship to nafa and cut the middle man out" had a great big load on this last sale. And hope you try it again this season.

Why is that ? I only had 1 coon leftover an bunch possums. They might figgure it out yet, but how long ? If they get this straighten out, possibly ship them again,if they dont or even if do, I wonder what happen fur prices? If not straighten out soon, or not at all, I can see prices going much lower with uncertain markets.

Why the spite? Were you a one-time buyer that got burned by trappers shipping to NAFA to get a higher price than local wholesale...? That's why I started to ship. I thought my last local guy (about an hour's drive away) was a good guy but didn't see why he should double what he got for my finished mrat skins by just re-bagging them. That was pretty good coin for 10 minutes of work...

From the conversation that is on-going... that if NAFA has played by the rules they set down... then NAFA is guilty of poor money management. I believe if I were a large investor NAFA, I would be trying to get a court ordered forensic audit of their books for at least the last 5 years if not 10. I thought it was suspicious earlier in the year when several of their top people left. We must remember that they have been doing more than selling fur. How many millions of dollars did they spend with trips around the world to showcase furs and too try to teach people how to Beaver etc.? I can't imagine how many millions they spent of this action. In this advertising venture alone, they would have had to pay for much of this up front … where did those millions come from?

My conclusion is therefore Kiting and Poor Money management. I don't personally know any of these people at NAFA, so I can't vouche for them either way, But I do know that sometimes Good people do bad things.

I would also add to that... that the rumors of Bankruptcy were likely leaks, but fact.

Garry-

If I were you coonman I would stay away from NAFA and their creative financing. You do as you see fit. They got the last fur from me

Long wait for all money but coon are good prices at nafa. No clue as to prices this season now, since this happen

In just hate to have only one selling venue. Good old groney will know have us by the short hairs.

I got hooked on NAFA and WFSC a few years ago when I unexpectedly got $13 for rats. Found it interesting to see how everything graded out and etc. It was a hobby. Something to do as am retired. I think I will find another hobby. The whole situation (except canines) is not worth the effort.

X2

If nafa goes down the tubes , I think prices elsewhere with others well also go down tubes

NAFA has 2 sales scheduled for 2020,March and July.

sell the fur at one and the property at the other.

Chris

I call dibs on the 30 second long haired fur drumming machine.

$2.00 a piece for 30 seconds work is my type of get rich quick scheme !!!

w

Bankruptcy might save NAFA at this point. It’ll give them a chance to right the ship. It’d screw you bounced check trappers, though.

They will have 2 sales next year, buildings and contents...….

Maybe the goberment will bail em out !

Possible if the libs retain power.
No chance if the conservatives take over.

Where wild fur is concerned it is a commission and fee based business. I doubt the majority of trappers are taking advances on fur. It is not like NAFA is subject to increase prices of raw materials that affect their bottom line. I just can’t see how a business based on that model can lose. Labor cost? I understand lower price fur and less of it, but would think with minimal production cost and being a commission/fee business could stay afloat. I did read where mostly ranch fur producers own NAFA and there is a lot more fronting money and business loans going on. So is it ranch fur killing NAFA? Could NAFA separate wild and ranch fur and operate them as stand alone businesses? Just trying to learn and understand. I have never shipped a fur only sold locally. Buyer closest to me has closed up shop.

It's a big world out there Beav, way more than one place to sell fur, you know that. Haven't sold at Nafa or Groeny for the last 3 years and done just fine, beat the average at auction on certain species every year. Just have to be willing to make the effort to ship and sell else where, for a lot of guys selling at Nafa is all about the convenience of putting everything on the truck at one stop and not knowing anywhere else to sell. All that being said I hope Nafa survives.

ttt

Let's hope that NAFA can get it's house in order, without bankruptcy. Losing NAFA would not be a good thing for trappers whether you ship to them or not.

We will have a further update this afternoon.
Jim

NAFA Is only 10 miles from my door. I hope It works out.

i'm firin up the commercial popcorn maker for this one boyz,hope its good news.

https://www.sagafurs.com/corporate/news/saga-furs-and-nafa-enter-into-an-agreement/

so much for it being good news huh.

Doesn't mention wild fur at all...

guess i better get back to splittin firewood,gonna be a cold winter.

You notice that the announcement only talks about “farmers”. Mentions it several times.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the wild fur portion of NAFA. Might be the mink ranchers looking out for themselves, leaving the wild fur shippers high and dry.

Anxiously awaiting more details.

The NAFA release mentions wild fur

Fur harvesters better get more fur bags ready

Here is the full email I received:


To: NAFA Customer

Saga Furs and North American Fur Auctions (NAFA) have today entered into an agreement to work together to secure a stable selling channel for NAFA’s customers both in Europe and North America. Utilizing its strong financial position, Saga Furs will start financing some of NAFA’s fur producing customers with immediate effect. The agreement also contemplates the integration of Saga Furs and NAFA solicitation teams in order to better serve the needs of the fur producing community in both Europe and North America.

With this agreement, Saga Furs and NAFA seek to address recent producer and market concerns as well as to provide fur producers with a solid platform through Saga Furs in which to sell their 2019 production. The combined offering will create the most versatile collection of different fur types, including mink, fox, finnraccoon and wild fur, available in the international market.

Further details about this agreement will be announced as they are finalized.


Sincerely,


Douglas Lawson
President & CEO

Once again, a newsletter that tells me basically nothing. HELLO HELLO, what about the money they owe trappers.....

What the heck does "Saga Furs will start financing some of NAFA’s fur producing customers with immediate effect" mean?

NAFA financing ranchers?

Dave

Hopefully trappers are considered "a fur producing customer".............anyone want to take bets on that one?

And the trappers?

I noticed...

Guess they didn't figure out why they went broke.

Okay so if you read the SAGA website it does not mention wild fur anywhere. So SAGA is bailing NAFA/Fur farmers out for a yet unspecified amount of money. Looks like NAFA just got bought out.

SAGA History

Yes, NAFA financing mink ranchers was a common practice. Production loans. Feed loans, etc. when mink prices were strong, no,problem paying back the loans when the pelts sold. With low mink prices 3 years in a row - prices below costnof production - farmers couldn’t pay back the loans.

travesty for wild fur

Thank you for the insight.

Dave

Bingo!

And we thought it was bad when North American mink ranchers/farmers controlled the purse strings.

Sounds like NAFA just threw wild fur trappers under the bus.

.….To save their own skin,