Handgun calipers in a rifle, I just don't get it

What's the attraction? I like revolvers, got a bunch of them and need a bunch more but why buy a carbine to shoot revolver cartridges? I get the velocity thing, add 20 inches of barrel and get 400 fps more but why? That's why 30/30's exist. Get a carbine in 45/70 if you want a big chunk of lead at low velocity. I prefer revolvers in 4 5/8" barrel length, no more than 6". My favorite revolver calibers are 44 special & 45 colt and I have no understanding of why I would want to put those calipers in a carbine. I have a Freedom Arms in 45 colt that will kill deer about as far as I'd shoot a deer with an open sighted 30/30 so why bother? I've had a 460 & 500 S&W, the 460 might as well be a rifle cartridge in a contender, the 500 is fun but overkill for just about everything around here. In all fairness I do have to admit I have a fondness for the BFR in 45/70. Educate me yea gun gurus.

I have a Miroku/Winchester 92 in .45 Colt. I agree not a whole lot is gained from a pistol cartridge. Mine is a 16" Trapper length and holds 8 rounds which isn't much more than the 5 rounds a 16" .30-30 Trapper holds. For me it's just a fun plinking gun, I doubt I'll ever take it hunting or use it for anything serious.

The main reason why I'd be interested in one is this is the list of legal deer calibers in Iowa...

20" barrel is more accurate than a 4 5/8 barrel . More range and accuracy and less recoil for kids , maybe.

That tubular mag on them levers or old pumps held a lot of rounds . I like that .

I have a 9mm Kel-Tec sub 2000 carbine and its pretty awesome...17 or 31 round glock mags fit in it and it folds in half for compact carry. Runs +P+ ammo flawlessly. Lots of zip coming out of a 16" barrel. Its the same size as a 3 liter camelback bladder when folded so it will fit in a number of my packs bladder pockets.

My cousin sent me a link to that Keltek a couple weeks ago... I'd like one, lol. That's an urban defense gun right there. I think it comes in .40 sw too.

its a nostalgia thing. the cowboys carried a six gun and a Winchester, usually. same caliber so they only needed to carry one ammo. they could load the rifle from their pistol belt.

I'd like to see another run of the tube mag pump in 25-20. Nice, light, nostalgic, lol.

It will get you home and it is e-z to conceal.

I have a Kel Tek sub in the 40sw and its a fun gun to shoot!

Daughter bought my son in law one of those brass receiver lever action henry's in 357 a few years ago. I'd call it a 75 yard deer rifle. He brought it over here right after he got it. I think cause he figured I had a lot of cast bullet 357 ammo loaded. He was right. We shot that rifle for several hours. Lot of fun and a good shooter. Harley your right. Lots of cartridges out there that can reach out a long ways. But a pretty lever gun that is fun to shoot? What is there not to like?

They make a dandy starter deer rifle for kids. Started all of mine with a Marlin 1894cs lever gun in .357. Very little kick at all. There's no telling how many deer that little rifle has killed in the last 20 years. Longest kill was a doe my son shot at about 110 yds. Complete pass through right behind the shoulder. I load my own ammo with 158 grain Hornady XTP.

There's fewer laws and regulations on carbines than there are on buying, owning, carrying a handgun.

Some people like to have a rifle and pistol that fire the same cartridge so they don't need to carry two different kinds of ammo.

Pistol caliber rifles are fun and easy to shoot and possibly more economical to shoot than are rifle calibers.

State hunting regulations may make pistol caliber rifles legal for hunting where larger centerfire cartridges are not legal for deer hunting. (On state property in Indiana you can hunt deer with a pistol chambered in .35 Remington but the same cartridges are not legal as a "pistol caliber rifle". Crazy, huh?)

So, there's a few reasons.

But generally speaking, I'm with you... If carrying a rifle or carbine, I'd generally prefer to have a traditional rifle caliber.

From a practical standpoint you are completely right A revolver cartridge in a lever action is not much difference . But you could also say that all any one needs is a .22 rifle and a 12 gauge shotgun .With all the different types of bullets and shotgun ammo available you would not need a center fire rifle .But most of us enjoy all kinds of ways of hunting or even just target shooting .All of the options help to make it appealing to more people

Oh no! You have that wayyyy wrong. That right there is an “ASSAULT” rifle. lol

We are allowed to use the .450 rifle during shotgun season in Michigan and Ohio. Only reason why I own one.

I've been using a .44mag cva scout(single shot) since they were allowed in Ohio. Seems to be more meet friendly than the shotguns.

most people do 90% or better of their shooting inside 100 yards , so a pistol carbine will do most everything they need.

light recoil , less expensive ammo , less noise in some cases

lots of fun , and much of it has t do with the ability to go buy 50 rounds of 9mm for 11 dollars and 20 rounds of even cheap fmj for 10 to 16

when we could buy an SKS for 99 dollars and 50 round sacks of 7.62x39 for 5 dollars that is what we shot a lot of ,it was good enough for most anything inside 100 yards.



also shooting steel , is huge now , 9mm carbines can even be run on indoor ranges , make it even better when your handgun and carbine run the same mags.

2 gun PCC/pistol competitions at ranges often inside 100 yards think IDPA style course with a carbine and handgun you take targets till you run your carbine dry then draw your sidearm and finish. 223 just tears up steel targets , the AR500 1/2 inch is much more expensive and you still are not safe to shoot it at closer distances under 100 yards

Or you can reverse the process like I did. Get a Marlin guide gun in 45/70 first. Then get a TC Encore in the same caliber,put a 4 power scope on it and out and make some serious noise.

Brad

I also sort of went backwards build a pistol in 300 blackout for hunting a pistol and shotgun only area.

had my township not have been stupid and allowed pistol caliber carbines when the hole state went rifle I would have bought a 44mag carbine the next day.

but it was much easier to build a AR pistol with brace than figure out how to make anything else fit the letter of the law.


when you can use a rifle during deer season to shoot a coyote but not a deer on your own land , well just kind of stupid and you can use a rifle all but 9 days of the year to shoot anything but deer

there are a bunch of people now hunting with AR pistols , probably exactly opposite of what the township wanted but was to short sighted to see that making pistol caliber carbines an option.

I suppose it does keep those under 18 from using anything but a shotgun or muzzle loader.

Several years ago I came across an early 1960's Ruger 44 mag Carbine. For whatever reason I like the gun , never used it for hunting yet. It would make a fine brush gun on short yardage shots. Its tube fed and only holds 4 though. Figured it might be worth a few dollars one day.

they made that tube feed then rotary mag later , great little brush guns , really will do more and go father accurately than a 20ga slug even the good sabot ones you pay 2.5-3 dollars a shot for.

launch a 240gr bullet at 1650fps and any deer inside 125 yards should be easily yours.

The thing with the straight wall,pistol calibers, is they aren't very fast bullets. My .44 mag at 75 yds I could hear the bullet hitting the paper target. Some calibers are hotter, I suppose handloaders could get some more speed out them but I just stick to factory ammo.

I'll buy it!!!

I am seriously considering a pistol cartridge carbine for home defense because my wife is not confident in her ability with a pistol. My preference for home defense would be an AR or Mini-14 but they are too long and heavy for my 5' tall wife. She can shoot and is a decent shot with her custom flintlock rifle so a short light carbine would better match her ability. That means pistol cartridge in something like what Marty showed.

and a 20ga 1/2 oz rifled slug is falling sub sonic at 50-60 yards even though it started at 1600 fps and then the group opens considerably but the round still flies 250 yards before reaching the ground when fired parallel to the ground form the shoulder but past 75 yards you have an every growing cone of path it could take you may aim at the target at 100 yards and hit a foot right of the target then left of the target you may have a 16 inch pattern at 100 yards
where
a 1/2 oz 240gr .430 bullet that is spin rather than drag stabilized goes just a 50 or so yards further total before it finds the ground when fired level from the shoulder parallel to the ground but it is stable and takes a known path and doesn't fall sub sonic till after 125 yards you can reliably know withing say 1.5 inches at 100 yards where it will hit rather than a pattern 2-3 times the size of the target you were firing at.

hitting your target on shot one means a lot fewer rounds being fired , less potential for rounds to go unintended places.

the county I live in actually reported fewer problems when the county went rifle from shotgun people would try and take long shots with a slug gun thinking it's just a shotgun they don't go that far often aim very high , they would miss and it would hit farm equipment they couldn't even see from where they were shooting. slugs travel far beyond the range they are accurate enough to reliably hit the target you are aiming at.

this is the one I have had my eye on , they are just hitting the market now I will probably give it a while for the price to get down a bit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqFibgF2CKA

uses glock mags with the mag well , and locks open on the last round , ambidextrous operation you can move the charging handle left or right , pre threaded and it is a tack down

Are those numbers wtih smoothbore slugs or rifled sabots?

rifled slugs for smooth bore barrels , confusing they call them rifled slugs but they are for a smooth bore

sabot slugs are for a rifled bore the 20 Sabot slugs I have used are about on par with the 44mag carbine they actually tend to use a 44 bullet in the sabot and can get it to very similar velocity

while the sabots are much better than the rifled slugs for smooth bore they still have you carrying a longer gun with a barrel that is not fixed to the receiver in most cases , and the release from the sabot isn't 100% perfect every time there is a greater jump to the rifling and it makes it hard to roll your own, you can reload some premium 44mag for 50 cents a round or buy some decent 44 mag for about a dollar a round , but a decent sabot slug never seems to drop below about 2 dollars a round.

the carbine with home cast reloads you can get your cost down around 25 cents a round for practice

getting 80 rounds of practice for 20 dollars vs 10 rounds of practice for 20 dollars one is going to get a lot more practice done.

Yeah...the .44s are a lot easier on the wallet vs the Hornady SST's

Mini 14 is too long? Heavy? Not sure about the mini you have compared to mine. I would call mine a carbine size gun. And light. My 5'4" GF has no problem with it.

A friend has a Hi Point carbine,(Can't think of whats it called). It comes in 45,what he had,9mm and 40mm. I think they come in 380 now too. He put a Red Dot scope on it and I tell you what,it is very fun to shoot. Next to 0 recoil. I think it came with 30 mags. Might look into that for your wife.

Brad

maybe in that the magazine is twice the length and mounted in-front of the trigger unlike the Keltech where the mag is in the grip , also most mini-14 are 18.5 inch barrels

so your adding 6 inches the the length , weight they are about 7 pounds with the 18.5 inch barrel

the AR you could save a bit of length vs the Mini
a very light weight AR rig you can get down to under 6 pounds A 14.7" pencil profile barrel with a pinned and welded bird cage flash suppressor makes it 16 inches

but the kel-tech is only 4.25 pounds half of it's trigger pull.

I have both styles of Ruger 44 magnum carbines. I wouldn't trade them for much of anything. They are very handy to carry, more accurate than a smooth bore 20 gauge, just as accurate as any rifled slug gun, an absolute pleasure to shoot, and absolutely reduce a deer into a pile.
That's why.

I just like having one ammo that works in both pistol and long gun. One set of reloading dies and supplies, lots of advantages when stocking up on ammo. And .44 mag/special has a nice wide range from light plinkers to 125 yard deer droppers. Very little one can not be prepared for with a .44 pistol and rifle and a nice selection of ammo. Add a scattergun and a .22rimfire, and you’ve got enough versatility to handle most anything short of elk in a lifetime of North American adventures.
Ok, I want a good .300 mag too for big country, but I swear that’s all I really need. Lol.

had a guy running a CZ scorpion carbine tonight at action pistol , he had some smoking fast times running on par with tricked out race hand guns for times , he almost never had to reload to finish a stage and his doubles were very fast because there is virtually no recoil to recover from , the pistol caliber carbine in 9mm it seemed from the way the steel plates moved the longer barrel was giving him greater energy.

it could be a very effective home defense gun and with the right choice your handgun and the wife's carbine could run the same mags and ammo that would be a bonus


by the way the 44-40 was really the pistol caliber carbine that set the ball rolling for the exceptional use fullness of a carbine rifle the 1873 winchester.

This fellow offers some very good info.....

That KelTek Sub 2000 has a lot going for it. The trigger pull is terrible but can be fixed for $30 of aftermarket parts. The over the counter price of about $400 is great. I don't know about accuracy with the folding feature and I don't like how tall the rear sight is. Maybe it is removable so a low profile red dot could be installed. At 4.25 lbs and with an adjustable stock that's pretty much what the wife needs.

I like the video Marty linked. Near the end they talk about the problems getting a cheek weld but it would be much less of a problem with a low profile sight instead of the Vortex.

Indiana had similar rules as to what ADC posted. I built a Handi rifle in .357 maximum. Easily killed over 40 deer with it. Over 200 yds you need to know your ballistics. Also used an Encore in 460 S&W. 200 yds it would take the deer right off its feet. We have since been allow to use high powered rifles.

Stock is not adjustable but they sell a pad to make it longer...rear sight is not easily removed. Front sight is not easily removed. Mine I accurate and I have no issues with the trigger but I run all stock triggers anyway so it is what it is. To put a red dot you have to change the handguard and with a red dot mounted it no longer folds unless you but a non oem indexing handguard and to put that on you need to destroy the front sight. The non indexing handguard goes on easily. Mine is tock except for a magpul asap single point sling mount that I put between the buffer tube and receiver as it goes on an ar-15...and I rattlecanned it.

Mine is gen 1....I am not sure about the gen 2.

Marty , does the charging handle move back and for the with the bolt or is a pull only like on a AR-15 that stays forward until pulled ?

It has to cycle the way it is setup. It can be locked back by pulling it to the rear and sliding it up into a notch. That's how I keep it when its folded....insert magazine and slam bolt forward and it is loaded....something like an MP5.

I watched most of that first clip. Impressive .

I was wondering about that , and if a long beard might get caught up in the charging handle cycling.

It is possible, if your in my area your welcome to try it out.

Nutinfancy is a good guy and does very good videos. You might check out his channel.

I own quite a few firearms. The only ones I ever shoot anymore are pistol caliber carbines. I love lever guns, especially 44s and 357s. A 44 lever gun loaded with 8-10 rounds is some serious firepower. I carry a lever gun in my vehicle all the time. You won’t get evil looks if someone sees it, and they will get you out of some serious trouble if you practice with them. I set all of mine up with ghost ring sights, and shoot them a lot. I keep a 44 lever loaded with 240gr XTPs next to the nightstand. A cracked out methhead won’t stand a chance against it.

I have 500 rounds I’m working on loading right now in 357, can load them nice and cheap, and the critters never know they weren’t shot with a 223.

I have a keltec on order that takes the Glock 19 magazines. If you want one, and see One at a dealer, you better grab it, they are hard to get! I’ve been on a list for 4 months or so now and my dealer has a lot of distributors and they are all sold out.

You can get 31 round glock mags for that sub 2000...glock brand and other. Mine are Korean.

midway has lots of mags just order some up
Magpul GL9 mags , I can't say how they work in the sub 2000 but I used them all the time in glock 17 and 19 and they are very reliable https://www.midwayusa.com/product/231934...r-polymer-black

31 round clear glock mags ets https://www.midwayusa.com/product/101870...mer-translucent


32 round pro mags https://www.midwayusa.com/product/768974...d-polymer-black

glock brand 33 round backourder ok https://www.midwayusa.com/product/116453...d-polymer-black

I have a notification set for when the OEM Glock 33 rounders come back into stock. That Keltec is going to make a wonderful backpack carbine for urban outings. Will go well with my Glock 19!

I'm a big lever gun fan as well.......what lever guns do you have in 357 mag and 44 mag ?

This one is on my list to get. Henry .44mag

~ADC~

I've been looking at the Henry Big Boy Steel since they came out. Nice rifles, and they're made about an hour north of me.

What makes the short barrel carbine so attractive ? Holds three rounds less that the standard carbine/rifle, shorter sight radius, etc.

carry a gun that weights less ,that is well balanced, less likely to bump into things,
in a place that you never see past 50 yards any way and the short barrel starts looking real nice even with less sight radius and 3 less rounds.
move the rear sight to the back edge of the receiver as a peep and you regain most of your sight radius.

also in a 16 inch barrel most pistol powder is all burned up by 12 so you don't gain in big velocity like you do with a rifle powder.

all your shots are really limited to basically 100-150 yards by the cartridge so you don't really need a long sight radius.
add a small light weight 2x optic and radius doesn't matter.

there is just something really handy about a light gun that is right around 36 inches in length, you put a sling on it a piece of black electrical tape over the muzzle and carry it muzzle down, slung off your left shoulder(if a right handed shooter) and you can walk all day and be on target in a second.

TraderVic,

I have the gun ADC posted in 357, it’s an awesome short/handy rifle. I also have a Henry Golden Boy 357, winchester 94 trapper in 44, marlin 1894 in 44. I also have several 30/30s and 45/70s that are nice and short.

Everything greencountypete said matches my beliefs in a lever gun carbine!

Greencountrypete,
Looked at a PC9 today while getting a couple 4 wheeler tires mounted. I like a lot of the features but it weighs more than a full sized rifle with a scope. Feels real center heavy. Obvious it was designed with other, much more powerful rounds in mind. Way overkill in my opinion for a 9mm. Retails for $499.00 here. If Ruger would knock about 3 lbs off it, I'd be interested. It's built heavy enough to use for a jack handle or hold a wheeler up while you changed a tire, but why put such a heavy build in a carbine. I wasn't impressed, but they had a Tikka stainless/ composite in .308 would look just fine in my truck.

I was looking at the new PCC specs , it looks like Ruger made it heavy to run fast , including a tungsten weight in the bolt it comes in at 6.8 pounds empty

the old ruger pc9 from the 90s was also heavy at 7 pounds

it does seem like the weight serves the sport shooting market more than the light weight carry carbine market.

I winder if they choose that thinking sport shooting would sell more as a light weight carbine market is more likely being served by a more powerful cartridge.

Pete,
It was a pc9 takedown I looked at. There isn't any way that rifle is 6.8 lbs like the specs claim. Have you handled one yet? I'm half tempted to have them weigh it the next time I go to town.

I too looked at the new Ruger and put it right back on the shelf once I felt what it weighed! I sure wish I had not sold my Marlin Camp 9 and 45.

Rally , no , I haven't seen any in the store yet.