What our biologist is saying about coyotes & deer

Our biologist in VA is still saying say coyotes are not impacting our deer harvest numbers. Other states like NC, SC and GA are saying that coyotes are reducing their harvest numbers. Are there other states that agree with the VA biologist. What do you all believe?

Sounds like you guys have an idiot for a biologist. If your deer numbers are down there are probably several reasons but yotes eating deer are one of the reasons.

x2

Of course they have some impact, unless you only have them mice and grasshopper eating coyotes .

There has been a lot of posts on Trapperman showing photos of coyotes carrying dead fawns, that prove otherwise.

Keith

I have sent lots of studies and reports about coyote impacts on fawns and he still thinks this way.

Read this-

http://www.roanoke.com/sports/outdoors/c...7d10bbbeb1.html

We had a state biologist in Illinois that was of the same mind set. His golden citter was the wild turkeys. If it wasn't a turkey he could of cared less.

he ever figure out coyotes eat turkeys too?

Sounds familiar....the bulk of our biologists don't believe wolves impact our moose/ caribou either...

Here is part of the article that gets me.......

A hefty 85 percent of the survey participants said they believe the ever increasing number of coyotes, along with bears and bobcats, are having an adverse impact on the deer herd.

Knox doesn’t buy that.


“I can not and will not blame predators for the decline in the deer herd,” he said.

Probably one of those people that can't accept the fact that predation is as natural a behavior for humans as it is for a mountain lion.

I saw a study released in 2015 that said DEER was found in between 45% - 74% of coyote scat they collected (which DEER was the HIGHEST of any thing found in the scat).

I also believe the study stated that it was found in coyote scat the most often in June.....interesting huh !!!

My problem is coyotes don't kill enough deer, deer are biggest pita on trap line

i have always thought that the fox pen folks brought coyotes here to have coyote pens but comments saying he doesn't blame predators make me wonder if DGIF didn't bring them here.

VAwolfer that is interesting......I think Knox would say that the deer or fawn may have died from natural causes and the coyote found it.

Typical biologist bull

That's what they said about wolves in Michigan for a long time. They changed their tune after the wolves literally ate the whole herd in a few areas.

yep all the coyote scat around here has hair from deer that died of natural causes(I guess in a way that's true) but you cant acknowledge coyote deer depredation without acknowledging wolf depredation CANT have that

Probably a global warming alarmist activist on the side

Not real sure he ever connected those dots Danny. He is retired now and I moved as well so kind of a moot point now.

I have seen trail cam footage where adult deer have been torn apart by a pack of 3 to 4 yotes here in Surry, Isle of Wight and Prince George Counties Va. One was a nice 8 pointer who didn't even stand a chance I was shocked as I watched the footage that the buck didn't defend itself much better. I can only imagine how easy pickings fawns are. I do believe yotes can will an do have a impact on our deer population no matter what they say.

Grinnersrus, I agree with you.

Based on the comments, It sounds like some other states have biologist with the same mind set. Do you think a few liberal schools have taught this to our biologist? When 85% of people that have a passion for something like hunting and trapping and believe the same way, it would take some good data to convince me to be in the 15% group. I would like to hear some more comments, specially if there are biologist or others that believe coyotes do not impact deer populations. I believe a coyote pair raising their young(6) where the deer population is between 20 to 30 per square mile will take approximately 20 fawns. I also believe some does are killed while given birth. More comments would be appreciated.

Our Pennsylvania Game Commission biologists are saying that coyotes replaced bear as the number one deer predator about ten or fifteen yeas ago.

I am not aware of any actual population impact study results here in PA.

I was told at a ODNR meeting by a game protector that bobcats never killed fawns What?? How can things be managed if the managers are oblivious?

Often times there are other groups of people that influence the opinions/policy of the DNR/Biologists as to their pay.

Even at times some sportsmans groups have gone against other sportsmens to have it JUST their way only.

Here in Michigan we have battled the groups over the years that wanted our hobby eliminated.

Most claims were that we(trappers) were killing hunting dogs. So more restrictions were added to our trapping.

Some were justified. Some not so.

Politics at it best/worst at times.

This discussion reminds me of the climate change debate. It really does not matter what percent of any group of people believe. The are plenty of studies that contain facts. Facts say predators do impact prey populations.

My trail cameras say your biologist is in a bubble. They are here at my place every night trying their luck. Anymore the does are lucky if they have twins left by fall.

I have also found a few fresh deer pieces on my property with canine style teeth marks in the bones. Upon picking it up and investigating the meat was still soft bloody an fresh. On one of those ocassion there was a yote about 10 yards away laying in the edge of the cutover taking a nap. The suppressed 45 pistol served the eviction notice that day. They are also hard on our waterfowl like wood ducks, pintails mallards as me and my brother always see an kill 2 or 3 yotes a year on my swamp bottom chasing waterfowl.

Seniortrap - I think you hit the nail on the head- their position is based on politics. That is why I'm wondering more and more about how coyotes showed up so quick in VA.

Despite politics, no state agency will import coyotes. Pens spread them in NC as the primary method of population migration. Natural dispersal was a secondary method of migration. It's ALWAYS baffled me how the trafficking of an invasive species could be legal.

“I can not and will not blame predators for the decline in the deer herd,” he said.

Hence no more hunting seasons or bag limits, or aren't hunters predators?

How about how .gov wastes millions a year on the feral horses, there's about the biggest invasive specie there is.

I think our biologist believe VA coyotes are predators that prey on mice, grasshoppers, rats, moles, voles, groundhogs and an occasional fox.

Our fox population is gone now. I get 20 pics of coyotes to 1 fox pic. I caught 6 grey fox and 4 reds in 2015/2016 and zero of both in 2016/2017. I caught 6 coyotes in each season. 2014/2105 I caught 9 coyotes, 3 reds and 3 greys. I only trap on one farm.

Here is an article that the VA DGIF is funding:

https://blog.wildlife.virginia.gov/2016/06/coyote-research-study-update/

Interesting article. I know I'm going off track but the article says a lot of squirrel remains are found in bobcat scat. I've used squirrels as cat bait in multiple ways. Including tails for a flag the same way I use a feather. I found squirrels to be very unsatisfactory as bobcat bait. Anybody else had the same experience or is it time to fool with them again? I wonder if cats just don't often scavenge on dead squirrels for some reason?

[u][/u]

Actually you have that backwards. Mathematically a change from 2 to 4 is a 100% increase, but with that low sample size it is not a statistically significant change.

Wolferman - I say this coyotes are opportunist feeders.

I agree 100% ......coyotes are opportunistic feeders. I believe coyotes are feeding hard on corn here now based on scat I've seen. Later this month they will be feeding hard on apples and pears in our orchard. In May and June I believe they feed hard on fawns. They feed on what is available and easy to find during the year (opportunistic feeders)....your right they are very efficient.....coyotes are not going to waste energy if they don't have to for food.

Danny when I find bobcat scat here it appears to be mostly squirrel hair. I have noticed the farm cats kill squirrels and eat part of it while fresh but never eat the leftovers.

Deer are pita but the deer hunters are worse and I think outnumber the deer at times.

If I become convinced that coyotes really impact the deer population I may quit trapping them.

That or the bios need to take more samples, I am always astonished, when reading some of the most referenced studies, at how small the samples were in comparison to the conclusions drawn from them.

The problem here is one of reading comprehension. The biologist has explained plain English exactly what the issue is (because it is not necessarily a problem), but for whatever reason some readers simply can't get past the bright shiny object (coyotes) to comprehend what he is actually saying.

So lets break it down.

1. Somewhere around 20-30 years ago deer passed the cultural carrying capacity across much of if not most of the state. Deer hunters attitudes and regulation still favored the harvest of bucks, and the population wasn't adequately controlled through hunting.

2. Slowly attitudes changed and hunters started letting younger bucks pass and harvesting more does. Still over cultural carrying capacity.

3. Finally big regulatory changes kick in....easier to get bonus tags and many counties are now earn a buck. Harvest numbers go up by as much as 25-30 percent and does make up a lot of that difference.

4. And this is what Knox is saying: we made these changes knowing they would curb the herd, and that once that happened, harvest number would be lower. Now here we are 10 years later and harvest numbers are lower....exactly like he said they would be.

5. On top of the change in regulations, there have been a few EHD breakouts that were borderline catastrophic in some areas.

6. And the herd and western VA has been on the decline due to National Forest timber cutting restraints that pre-date any talk of coyotes.

Is he saying that predators don't kill deer? Absolutely not....he is merely stating that despite all predation that occurs, we would still be in the same place today due to the above factors.

Matt Knox is one of the best deer biologists in the country and Virginia is extremely fortunate to have him.

Sounds like you did more to tank your 1 farm fox population than the coyotes...lmao

Pass-thru - This farm produced 12 to15 fox per year consistently, with only a few sets and trapped for about two weeks by another trapper, prior to coyotes showing up. I'm not a fox fan either.....ask the big time fox trappers and fox hound hunters how the fox population is faring since coyotes showed up.

I do believe coyotes have helped the turkey population by eating cats, skunks, possums, coons, snakes and fox, all egg and poults eaters.

Tjm - let's hear more.....are you a biologist? Sounds like you are in the 15% group. I like to hear people that have a different opinion too.

"Liberal doe days were adopted to bring the herd into compliance with its cultural carrying capacity; that is, how many deer the human population will tolerate."

Carrying capacity has NOTHING to do with " how many deer the human population will tolerate." If this was what the biologist said, then he is an idiot. If it is a product of the reporter, then that one is an idiot. To say that coyotes don't have an impact on big game is ridiculous.

Before you start calling other people idiots....you should look up the definition of "cultural carrying capacity." Since you don't understand that term, which is the foundation of everything else he said, then you simply cannot understand anything any of the points he was making. Like I said in my post above, reading comprehension.

No reading comprehension issues here. I agree, he is staying he predicted this based on their very liberal doe regulations. EHD/HD have also had a significant impact in the county I hunt and across other counties in the state. I'm a Deer Management Assistance Program coordinator (DMAP) and I my management goals were to decrease the deer population while increase quality of bucks (QDM). When coyotes moved into the area about 12 years ago I knew our doe harvest would need to be reduced or our deer population would drop significantly. Fawn survival would be much lower with coyotes. I will attach some studies later. One thing as a DMAP coordinator is to report sloughing hooves on deer harvested- deer that survived EHD/HD. Do you think many deer survive EHD/HD with a healthy coyote population? I don't and expressed this concern to our biologist. Response I received- we haven't given that much thought. I also predicted the VA harvest numbers to drop to 150,000, they were about 240,000 at the time and our biologist acted like I was crazy. VA harvest number was approximately 180,000 last year, I think the 150,000 is still on track. We run approximately 15 to 20 cameras most of the year on my farm. When I started getting more coyote pics than deer pics on some of the cameras I couldn't take it anymore and started trapping. I had the guy trapping that would catch 12 to 15 fox but he was only catching 1 or 2 coyotes. I have killed 34 coyotes in less than 5 years on my farm. We checked 13 cameras this week that had been out for 2 weeks and had no coyote pics, no fox pics, 1 bobcat, 1 coon and lots of deer pics and fawns. I caught 5 out of the 6 coyotes this season just before and during fawn birth season (April and May). Our hunting should be excellent this year as long as we don't have another EHD/HD outbreak in the next few months. Hope your season is too.

Not a bio, no, but my observations show the more coyotes we have, the more deer we have (or vice versa); sorta like when the rabbit population goes up or down.

Simple logic indicates that if coyotes impacted deer to a decimating extent, we would have never seen deer in our life times because coyotes were around before European conquest.

Numbers of road killed cars still indicate we have surplus deer. Any given year we have xx number more deer killed on roads than we do coyotes.

My thoughts are along the lines of; sure coyotes eat some deer, might even kill some deer; but in the overall picture they don't come close to endangering the species.
See pass-thru's post above on other factors and etc.

Not a bio, no, but my observations show the more coyotes we have, the more deer we have (or vice versa); sorta like when the rabbit population goes up or down.

Simple logic indicates that if coyotes impacted deer to a decimating extent, we would have never seen deer in our life times because coyotes were around before European conquest.

Numbers of road killed cars still indicate we have surplus deer. Any given year we have xx number more deer killed on roads than we do coyotes.

My thoughts are along the lines of; sure coyotes eat some deer, might even kill some deer; but in the overall picture they don't come close to endangering the species.
See pass-thru's post above on other factors and etc.

This sounds like the human hunters I know that think the more deer they kill this year the more they will have the next year. I have heard several say this and they believe it.

Humans increase the population regardless of the prey base. Humans feel a need to harvest whether they are hungry or not, coyotes never think of harvest or management (don't think at all) they just eat when hungry. I'd venture to guess that "harvest" numbers in a given year depend more on the extent of previous "harvests" than on coyote impact, but that is just a guess.

Here is another article/study.

http://www.gon.com/hunting/coyotes-could-drive-deer-into-predator-pit

Pass-thru let me know what you think of the GA and SC biologist. I now know your thoughts on the head VA biologist for deer.

Here is an article from SC- http://www.scwildlife.com/articles/septoct2015/coyote.html

If you have studies supporting your opinion please share.

I will provide more articles when the tread gets cold.

I suspect deer numbers cycle like everything else. The biologist may be taking that idea into account. Plus urban sprawl, changes in food supply, deer tick impact, environmental noise, shifts in air pollution trends, diseases in general, car-deer impact areas and so on. Add to this chronic wasting disease recently (over last several years) "imported" thru game farm escapees and so on.

Wolves and other predators affect moose populations but so do ear mites and worms that get into the brain. Coyotes eat turkeys and turkey eggs but so do nest predators like skunks, coon, and possums.

I think it serves us all to look beyond our own self interests and consider the deer, turkeys and other game could do with less arguing and more study/solutions.

I would think that your wildlife biologists would allocate funds to do scat samples for DNA to see what the coyotes are preying upon. They should do that seasonally so they can get a better idea of what major prey items are say spring versus summer, fall or winter. Even if there are lower percentages of deer dna in the scat it does not mean that coyotes don't impact numbers. Coyote here in WI prey on lots of fawns in the spring and early summer.

Bryce

Teacher- thank you for your reply. I agree we all need to work together. Our hunting and trapping depends on it. I sincerely apologize if I have come across as arguing. A concern I have with deer, mule deer, moose, elk or other game populations declining is the decline in hunting licenses and other hunting supplies. Same is true with lower fur prices. If dollars spent on hunting and trapping declines it will hurt. If this happens it will give the anti hunters and trappers more strength. In VA our hunting licenses continue to decline. I have not done enough to get new hunters and trappers started. I'm trying to get both of my kids interested. I did take a church friend hunting and he killed his first deer. It is hard getting kids and new hunters interested with low deer numbers. Our county has had 3 out of 5 years with a significant EHD/HD outbreak according to our DNR. I'm working very hard on improving habitat for hunting and trapping. I have recommended a coyote tag program like fish tags or duck bands and have received negative feedback from our Game Commission. 1 county in NC is going to try it and SC has discussed it. I don't think it will work in only one county. I wish several states would try it together. I will continue to work and try to come up with solutions. Hope others do the same.

http://www.salisburypost.com/2017/06/28/coyote-pilot-program-clears-final-hurdle-becomes-law/

Here is the NC tagged coyote program.

I do not support traditional bounties but believe this tagged coyote program may help get people interested in hunting or trapping coyotes. It most likely needs to be on a larger scale to be successful. A tagged transient coyote may end up in another state. I know coyotes are here to stay and it takes about 80% or more coyotes to be removed to lower the population. Habitat and limiting doe harvest are the most important IMHO. Does anyone know of a good study that proves coyotes have larger litters when their population drops? I believe litter sizes are dependent on the coyotes food/health not their population.

One thing about those studies (and the disagreement), coyotes weren't native to the South until the 1940's. There are studies from Georgia, South Carolina, and Alabama that show a significant negative impact on the population. Hunter's are another piece of the pie, but things have to be taken as a whole. If deer population is X, and you want the population to be Z, Y has to be removed or added. The better information we can get on Y, the better chance of having Z.

About 35 years ago when we started getting coyotes here in Jersey Fish and Game biologists wanted the carcasses. These coyotes had been snared with brush for entanglement. The biologist then concluded that coyotes ate bark in the winter as each had some bark in their stomach. Must be why we had fewer beaver, they could not keep up with the competition! Eric

I remember when we had no deer,turkeys,beavers or coyotes. Of the 4 species I mentioned I would like to see the deer and coyotes disappear. We have an ugly 'yote here most of which aren't worth much. The deer are everywhere, so the deer hunters are everywhere also. Forgot to mention otter and bobcats.

We have high deer populations here (known) and we're just now starting to learn how prevalent the coyotes are. While I don't talk to biologists, we stay in touch with the wardens. The yotes here seem to only be touching deer during birth months and when the fawns are really young. They'll also chase one down but only in the hard winter months, which to be honest, are rare here. Most people here want the both gone (but few actually know coyotes are a thing here).

With he high concentrations of deer, its really kinda surprising with the lack of disease.

The one thing about this thread that I didn't see (I could've missed it) is location. We all know coyotes are opportunists, which changes with every locality.

Eric Space - that is a classic.
Jeepsyco- I live in Hanover and the farm is in Caroline, I see deer every day in my yard in Hanover and when I go hunting my wife will say, I bet I saw more deer than you did today. She doesnt want me to shoot the deer around our house. The coyotes are working on the fawns at my house. A few weeks ago a coyote scared my wife and kids because it stared at them and then proceeded to cross the yard around 10 am. She sent me a video of the coyote and asked me to bring some traps home from the farm. I set two traps and caught it the first night and pulled my traps the next morning. When we got home from church our neighbor's dog was running through our yard. I was glad I pulled the traps. That is the only time I have set traps in our yard but we have only lived here for about 2 years. Im okay with the coyotes eating the deer around our house. Hopefully the coyotes will help lower the deer population in Northern VA too.

We're in a very interesting spot. Some interesting facts about here....We had over 11000 people move into our county between JUL 2015-JUL 2016. We're the number one location for Lyme disease too. The worst fact...we're the richest county in the nation (median income). Those things together mean we're getting alot of development, and with hunting being the last on people minds, but that we also have alot of deer and the landscaping is cocaine for deer. I've hunted the same 80+ acres hard over the last 5 years and saw very few yotes. I pulled nine off that property this winter within 2 oo yards of each other. This summer we've seen more turkeys than usual, which was the goal. We also have a TON of red foxes (very few grays). I can catch reds here on that same property every week.

I'm 50/50 on it all. I just enjoy the hunting/trapping. I enjoy deer hunting and the numbers we have, but I love chasing the k9s more. You can do whatever you want, the yotes aren't going anywhere. We've tried to take the out for almost 200 years and they've laughed at us.

Jeepsyco it sounds like you had a family of coyotes raise in your area and you took them all out. Good job! If the coyotes stay your red fox population will drop. It will take a while but the coyotes will thin the fox down more than the deer IMO. Your correct the yotes are here to stay, I just want them to be considered in the equation for deer management across the state. In your area they should help with the numbers of deer over time.

a couple of thoughts,
Coyotes may kill a few deer during the year but they are not limiting the deer population.
Left unchecked Deer destroy the habitat that feeds them.
The lessons of the Kiabab are being disputed, some cling to elimination of predator others say over browsing damage, either way the habitat in the end limited the deer population.
If you think predators can decimate the deer herd how do account for unlimited (by man) predators and still there were lots of deer before European settlement. Indians used habitat manipulation (fire) to attract deer and other prey and this manipulation benefited the deer.
I find it sad that there are still those want to eliminate predators of Deer, whether Coyotes, Wolves, mountain lions or whatever. This just so they can have more deer to kill for them selves. Meanwhile farmers, property owners and others pay the price for over population of deer.

I myself think there are too many deer in my neck of the woods. We have few coyotes at this time, they are around, but not in large numbers. There are still more Red Foxes than coyotes in my neck of the woods. I'd hate to see the foxes go if the coyotes became more numerous but if they do I'd doubt if the coyotes would put a dent in the deer, it be nice if they did, but they won't.

I hear the whining of others from Northern Wi on the declining deer heard up north. If you want to see the deer heard rebound don't worry about Wolves, let the chainsaws loose and start clear cutting pulp and you'll see the heard rebound. The more logging the better.

Dirty D- when the coyote population exceeds the red fox population you will see the deer numbers decline unless your deer population is still growing because hunters are not shooting enough does. We had an over population of deer and the population needed to drop but once it does and lots of hunters think they can still shoot double digit number of does and it will not impact the population is when the decline really speeds up. When the numbers start to decline is when you see the coyote impact the most IMO. In some areas I think coyotes may only kill 10% of the fawns and in others I think they may kill 90%. There are lots of variables, habitat and deer population are two important ones.

I can remember years back at a Wildlife Commission meeting in Colorado, one of the biologists stating that deer were "an insignificant portion of a coyote's diet". One of the other trappers Assn. members uttered under his breath "Where do coyotes buy they're Tofu?. That same year Utah came out with a study showing more than half of coyote droppings studied contained deer hair, in the spring the scat contained about 70% , mostly fawn hair as I remember.

I hear the whining of others from Northern Wi on the declining deer heard up north. If you want to see the deer heard rebound don't worry about Wolves, let the chainsaws loose and start clear cutting pulp and you'll see the heard rebound. The more logging the better.

Top
Yes and it won't hurt the grouse, bear or snowshoe population along with the deer either. Sure deer can destroy their habitat but if browse is a major source of winter food for deer and the trees grow up then the browse is not within reach. Clearings create grass and broad leaf plants along with shrubs and first succession trees, like aspen, birch, alder etc. which growth thick and provide lots of winter feed.

Bryce

Another source:

http://www.fieldandstream.com/predator-control-truth-about-coyotes-vs-deer

PA guys- how are things there since coyotes have moved in the area?

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/big-buck-zone/2014/06/are-pennsylvania-coyotes-4-million-problem

If your goal is a "Coyote Bounty", you will need to use politics, not science.

WI pretty much keeps control on how many does get shot. Gun season you need a "special" tag, bow is hunter's choice. Not many bow hunter shoot does. Its the antler hunt. nobody is shooting double digits of does. There needs to be more does killed in the southern 1/2 and more habitat creation in the northern 1/2 (logging).

Biggest killer of deer in my area is starvation, in the north its human hunters.

Enough fawns killed by mowing hay and hogging weeds to skew any study of scat, at least most years. Need to collar about a thousand coyotes and track them closely for a year. Find out just what the deer kill numbers are.
A thousand is a large enough sample to get fair results and would require enough people so that some of the bias would be eliminated from the results.

This sounds like the hunters are more to blame than the coyotes?

How does collaring give you more information about source of dead fawn than studying scat, unless you have a video strapped to the collar? Also, in statistics the size of the sample is of limited importance, for a study to be sound the sample must be randomly selected.


I will say this generally: I have very little faith in coyote studies. I question the smarts of many conducting such studies. Most of the findings are conjecture at best. Then they are repeated ad nauseam as other studies copy previous ones, or at least the conclusions of which. There's a lot of dumbassery being passed off as hard science. The Virginia Tech coyote study is just a complete joke....worse than unhelpful, clearly reflects the bias of the author, and wasted hundreds of thousands of license fee $$$$.

good excuse for crappy studies, statistics have little to do with truth;

camera on the collar could assist in the close 24 hour a day monitoring, good idea
when the coyote is feeding in fresh cut patch, odds are excellent that the fawn was found dead, imo, my thoughts are does don't hide the baby in a fresh cut field.
The cost of any coyote study is well worth it if even one fawn is saved?

Biilytraps- my goal is to see good wildlife management practices based on good data. I do not believe in traditional bounties. I said that earlier and said that a tagged coyote program may help get hunters and trappers interested in hunting coyotes while game departments could collect some data when tagged and after tagged(% harvested, how long they lived, how far they traveled, etc.) We can not control them, we will have to learn how to manage our wildlife populations with coyotes.

Tjm- hunters are being told that it is based on heavy doe harvest that started years ago, disease and habitat loss. Lots of these hunters shot double digit deer for years without any significant impact to the population (prior to coyotes). Now they don't understand why they can't still do it.....I don't want disease or the habitat to cause the reduction so I better shoot them.

Pass-thru- I don't support any more studies on coyotes. They studies conducted show significant variations in data and that will continue IMO. Lots of variables: coyote population, deer population, habitat, fawning season(how spread out, buck to doe ratio for breeding them in a short window) weather during spring and summer, crops/ other available food and etc. The weather alone can have significant impact on a fawns survival IMO. Lots of rain and everything is lush, fawns grow faster, more cover, does milk better, etc.

I think studies could be designed the best way possible and you could still see data from coyotes killing 10% to 90% of fawns across different areas. I agree don't waste anymore money. The benefit of another study would probably be as low as traditional bounties.

I also am not doing this for my own interest to kill more deer. If I never kill another deer I have killed enough. I hope my kids get to enjoy hunting and trapping the same way I have over the last 40 years. If the revenue stops coming in to the states our hunting and trapping rights will change for the worse quickly.

If you are running a lot of fawns through haybines then there is a decent to high population of deer in your area. We have been cutting over 3-4 million acres of hay in WI for over 80 years and deer numbers in the heavily farmed area have boomed during that time.

Bryce

When hunting ginseng during bow season,I come across deer that are being eaten by coyotes.Same thing close to roads. Plenty of fawns get mowed over also. I have no doubt that Coyotes kill deer,but deer are lousy here in spite of liberal bag limits,not to mention permits given to farmers. As bblwi said farmland with suitable cover nearby is where the deer are ,at least around here.

Facts from PA

There is no closed season and no bag limits on coyotes. This kinda goes against the conspiracy theorists.

I've seen may times and in all seasons that a dead deer/fawn/cow/calf will lay untouched for months with no sign of coyotes. Will they eat carrion? Sure but to imply that a very significant amount of deer hair in their scat is from eating critters already dead doesn't add up especially in fawn drop season.

I had a friend in high school in the early 80's who grew and smoked a lot of weed on his rural Bedford County farm. He'd come to school every once in a while and say that he had heard coyotes howling on the mountain the night before. Friends would laugh and say well "musta been the weed". Guess it wasn't the weed. Now we have (proof of some, anecdotally for others)

1. Many more bear
2. Many more bobcat
3. Many more fisher
4. Many more coyotes
5. Very healthy turkey population
6. Significantly less red fox
7. CWD
8. Viable population of Bald Eagles
9. Lot more of opportunities to kill deer
10. Many less deer

You can draw your own conclusions but the yotes, as we all know ain't going anywhere.

I am from eastern NC and I am here to tell you that coyotes and ( red wolves ) will decimate a deer population. PERIOD end of discussion.

I will also say that in my lifetime I have laughed at all kinds of ridiculous statements made by biologist. I think they mean well they just don't have the where with all to actually see the forest for the trees. They have been conditioned to " study the date " and therefore they are always behind the curve.

Let me put it this way. A whitetail deer herd cannot be predated on 365 days a year by cars, disease, food scarcity in winter, automobiles and poaching and then evade hunters for 120 days (Sept 10 thru Jan 1 ) and expect the herd to grow.

I hate a coyote and red wolf ( any wolf ) more than any white man walking the planet.

BillyTraps- you are correct, politics can get bounties approved Science normally will not support bounties.

My estimates/assumptions
800,000 deer in VA
400,000 does bred
480,000 fawns born (some does have 1,2 or 3 fawns- assuming 1.2 fawns per doe) assume same every year
Harvest approximately 250,000-2007/2008, 2008/2009
Coyotes appeared 15 years ago in my area( 2002) healthy population by 2007
Coyotes kill injured and sick deer from HD/EHD that sometimes would survive before coyotes
Coyotes kill 20% of fawns in 2007 - 96,000 fawns- coyote population grows
Coyotes kill 30% of fawns in 2008 - 144,000 fawns - coyotes population grows
Coyotes kill 40% of fawns in 2009 - 192,000 fawns - coyote population grows and levels off for future years
Coyotes kill 40% of fawns in 2010 - 192,000 fawns - l believe the coyote population is still growing but used 40% as a max
Same kill every year after. 2011 - 192,000 fawns
2012 - 192,000 fawns
2013 - 192,000 fawns
2014 - 192,000 fawns
2015 - 192,000 fawns
2016 - 192,000 fawns - deer harvest 180,000 for a drop of 70,000 deer or 28% from 250,000. I think the peak was 256,000.....the website just shows a graph when you click the years 1947-2016 it just shows last year.
I predicted to our biologist that the harvest would decline to 150,000 years ago and I think they laughed at me. Here is my prediction going forward.
2017/2018 - 198,000 up 10% from last year because of good mast crop hurt hunters success in 2016/2017and big snow on last day of season kept numbers down, mast crop appears poor will help hunters this season, number may go over 200,000
2018/2019-168,000 down due to over harvest in 2017/2018, continued coyote pressure
2019/2020 - 151,00 decline continues as over harvest of does has made coyote pressure on fawns greater
I hope this is the bottom but we will see. I believe my assumptions are low on the percentages of fawns killed by coyotes but tried to be conservative. Fawns die from other causes too. The Game Department has cut doe days out in the national forest land and reduced doe days in 14 counties but numbers are so low they will take years to recover with coyotes in the equation. Any logic here or is the head biologist correct by saying, "I can not and will not blame predators for the decline in the deer herd".

Everyone knows they only eat mice and grasshoppers .

I can only assume your biologist doesn't include humans on his predator list. Probably thinks humans should not prey on deer, that it's a realm for animals only. A common theme among the animal rights crowd.

Danny in the fall of 1980 while squirrel hunting I did witness two bobcat hunting squirrel. I usually find a good hickory tree that the squirrels have been working and set under and let them come to me. I was watching a grey on a log that was out of range to shoot. I starting hearing squirrels barking to the west of the squirrel on the log I starting looking to see what the squirrels were barking at when I seen the bobcat. I watched as they got closer to the squirrel on the log at about the same time the first bobcat seen the squirrel he headed for a tree with the first bobcat in pursuit the cat followed up the tree. This tree had no other trees close for the squirrel to jump to so it jumped from the tree to the ground and the other bobcat caught it. It was one of the best highlights of my life seeing this. I have always wished I could have videoed this.
As for the coyote and deer I believe the humans kill just as many or more. I have seen a coyote catch and kill fawns on 2 different times in my prairie meadow from my dinning room bay window.
Mother nature does things we do not like but if the deer population drops so will the coyote.
A few years ago we had blue lounge go through and killed a lot of deer. The hunters blamed the coyote for that because when it hit it was summer all they seen were bones that were left. I had 5 dead deer at my pond at one time so I know it effects on population. Something that did suppress me was that nothing ate them not even the buzzards.

Cool story Hal. Do you think coyotes and buzzards had so many to eat is why they didn't eat any around your pond?

When I say the population is so low it is where the doe days have been cut. Some areas of VA still have a high deer population.

What percentage of fawns do you think coyotes get in your area? Do you think coyotes kill some does when they are giving birth?

I don't think a decline in deer will hurt coyote populations much. Had plenty in the 60's before there were many deer. IMO coyotes prey on them for the same reason you and I do. Good eats. I don't believe they effect coyote numbers one way or the other. IMO our deer herd decline here in KS can be put on us humans. All those over the counter doe tags are the result of whiney auto insurance company's. Herd numbers were down before the drought around here.

Checked 11 cameras today. Lots of fawns. One young coyote. How old do you think a coyote pup has to be to live without its parents? 12 weeks or so?

Summer time lots of food, warm weather so calories don't get burned fast. I bet this late in the year they have a good chance. Already good mousers and bug catchers.

I have always thought that about 30 percent of fawns die by predators or natural causes. Of the deer at my pond that were dead were 2 fawns. I found a full grown doe years ago covered up with leaves under a big oak tree. It had snowed and there were bobcat tracks coming and going from it I set a trap and had a very large Tom the next morning I have no doubt it had killed that doe. Like Danny said we did have a lot of coyote before we had a lot of deer. Mother nature will take care of things if populations get out of hand.

What a sight (experience) to see/enjoy!

2nd

Supposedly yote litters vary in size depending on the conditions of their environment. Lots of food/opportunity and less competition/pressure results in increased litter sizes.

The questions I have, using that as fact, wouldn't trapping a bunch of them out of your area ensure more pups in your area? Wouldn't the need to feed large litters of pups in that area be counter productive for the deer you are trying to manage? Just thinking out loud. A lingering thought that has been stuck in my brain for awhile I thought I would share.

what the bio really said; Matt Knox, the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries biologist in charge of the state’s deer program.

“For nearly a decade, I have been consistently writing that the liberal doe regulations we enacted about a decade ago would eventually lead to a decline in the deer herd and the deer kill, especially on private land in eastern Virginia,”

Along with disease, the hunters are mostly responsible for the lowered number of deer and apparently that was by design, increase the number of tags and legal doe kills is meant to reduce the overall herd size, which automatically will result in lowered deer harvest at some point.
It seems that the effort to reduce the herd to the 'cultural carrying capacity' has been successful. Now is the time to adjust the numbers of permits/doe harvest to the point of maintaining that level.

If you plan a herd reduction and purposely allow double or triple the harvest in order to achieve that, and you are successful; why would you give credit to the coyotes?

If hunters want more deer than is culturally acceptable, they simply need to buy land and plant crops; the deer will come.
Deer hunters, mostly townies that won't farm the land, are in most respects parasites in that they want the land owners and the public to subsidize their hobby.
Wildlife agencies should logically spend no more money on deer habitat or health than they spend on coyote habitat and health; both are vermin.
Where are the studies on the decline of weasels? Spotted skunks?

http://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/hou...ets-6501383.php

If that is true about the litter size, then all female coyotes in VA should already be breeding to max capacity, because the coyote population in this state is nowhere near max capacity. So following that logic we should kill every coyote with maximum benefit now while the population is still growing to delay coyotes from reaching max saturation level, at which point we will need to stop kill them because killing them then would just lead to more coyotes

Litter sizes average 5 to 7 pups in many areas. Litter sizes seem to be dependent upon coyote population densities. Litters may average 8 or 9 pups where coyote populations are sparse, but on the other hand, this phenomenon may reflect healthier coyotes due to an abundance of food.

National Trappers Association - Coyote

www.nationaltrappers.com/coyote.html

Well the yotes are established in Ohio. I hadn't thought of how it applied to Virginia. My thought was based more toward creating a void in an established area like mine and litters increasing (thus more mouths to feed) to fill that void. It was just something to ponder. Didn't mean to make your face crinkle up like.

[quote=OhioBoy]Litter sizes average 5 to 7 pups in many areas. Litter sizes seem to be dependent upon coyote population densities. Litters may average 8 or 9 pups where coyote populations are sparse, but on the other hand, this phenomenon may reflect healthier coyotes due to an abundance of food.

National Trappers Association - Coyote

www.nationaltrappers.com/coyote.html [/quote

I know this is a common perception, but I am not aware of any studies that support it.

Jarhead

https://urbancoyoteresearch.com/about-coyotes
The Litter: Litter sizes often range from four to seven pups, though some litters can be bigger and some smaller. The largest litter found during this study held 11 pups in one den. Coyotes have the ability to adjust their litter sizes based on food abundance and population density. While it is difficult to get reliable estimates of litter sizes in urban areas, best estimates suggest that litter sizes are larger than average, indicating an abundant food supply. Pups stay in the den for about six weeks and then begin traveling short distances with adults. By the end of summer, pups are spending some time away from parents and attempting to hunt on their own or with siblings.

https://senr.osu.edu/sites/senr/files/imce/files/TWEL/Hennessy,%20Cecilia-Thesis.pdf
Gestation lasts 60-61 days (Bekoff 1978). Litter size is typically 4-9 pups, varying with factors such as resource availability and population density (Bekoff 1977a). Younger females tend to have smaller litters (Bekoff and Gese 2003). Coyote females may share a den; however, studies suggest that coyotes must be related in some fashion (mother-daughter, sister-sister) for this to occur (Bekoff 1977a).

That study references this book from the 70's. Maybe that's where that started.

https://www.amazon.com/Coyotes-Behavior-Management-Marc-Bekoff/dp/1930665423
Marc Bekoff is Professor of Biology at the University of Colorado, Boulder, and is a Fellow of the Animal Behavior Society and a former Guggenheim Fellow. He recently was awarded the Exemplar Award from the Animal Behavior Society for major long-term contributions to the field of animal behavior.

Interesting.

http://www.coyotelivesinmaine.com/coyote/understanding-ecology-and-behavior/
So widespread killing which causes coyotes to live in a colonizing state immensely disrupts their ordered life, and disintegrates their complex social structure. For example, the average age of a breeding adult in an unexploited population is 4 years old. By age 6 reproduction declines, whereby older, alpha pairs maintain territories but fail to reproduce. These elder coyote mates have no need to feed hungry pups, and so any potential for them to kill livestock is greatly diminished.

However, consistently killing coyotes keeps their age structure skewed to the young, (average age of an alpha is 1 to 2 years) who are far more reproductively active, and for a longer time in their lives. So the natural limitations coyotes have established in older-aged, unexploited populations are absent, and the coyotes live in a constant state of social and spatial flux.

Just interesting is all.

What do you think make a better hunter of young deer over all an older coyotes or younger coyotes with less experience in life. And when it comes to younger mothers do you believe the survival rate for the pups are lower. And if you trap down most of the older coyotes on a given tract of land wouldn't it be easier to control the younger in coming coyotes if one stay on top of things? I know we gut a lot of early spring coyotes and most are full of nothing but glass and are in very poor shape and most all the females are carrying pups. When the pups start hitting the ground later on we catch very few wet female compare to the barren ones. I believe because early spring is so hard on our southern coyotes that miscarriages are a big part of our coyotes lives.

Tjm- Thanks for attaching another quote from our head biologist. Yes, he had been saying that the population would drop for years which it finally did once coyotes got established..... just a coincidence????.....look at the correlation between coyote populations increasing and deer population declining and see what you get. GA, SC and NC are acknowledging the impact. It bothers me that he is so adamant that coyotes are not changing anything with regards to the deer population. Tjm I plant lots of stuff for the turkeys, deer and other wildlife: Chinese chestnuts, Dunston chestnuts, Persimmon trees, gobbler sawtooth oaks, natural hardwood reforestation, beans, wheat, oats, Austrian winter pea, ladino clover, crimson clover and chicory to name a few. Some of the persimmon trees that are about 15 years old are loaded this year. I spray painted the female trees and fertilize them every year. We planted over 300. Most lived. Lots of work keeping vines and other vegetation down around them. The females are twice as big as the male trees that didn't get fertilizer. Operation Oak helped with lots of the trees - National Wild Turkey Federation.

Ohio boy - if fawns can make it to 6 weeks old they have a better chance of making it. I caught five coyotes just before fawns dropped and while dropping this spring. Believe me it helps, lots of twin fawns around this year. The key is to catch the resident coyotes just before fawns hit the ground. If you catch them in the winter, transient coyotes have a chance to move into the area.

Pass-thru I believe you are correct..... the population for coyotes is still growing in most of VA.

That actually makes sense. Thanks. What window of time are your fawns dropping? Wasn't there a post about everyone noticing there were late season fawns? Seems like it would be hard to judge. You probably just monitor your heard way closer than I can imagine and have a better idea than I do with mine. Whats the tricks to spring yote trapping. It must be diff than fur trapping in the winter I'm sure. Just some urine post sets at key points I would imagine. Nothing too loud?

your conclusions are the same as Major Boddickers and Ray Alcorns and other coyote men who did a lifetime of coyote control work for late winter through summer any stuff by them is a good read Travis Chilson comes to mind Don Schumaker and many others have studied coyotes for decades and their methods for coyote control in the warm seasons are interesting and enlightening

Thanks Jeff.

OhioBoy you should read the experts on the coyote control that Jeff listed. I need to read it too. I like to use groundhogs in a groundhog size hole. The fresh dirt is good eye appeal and the smell of groundhog in the spring is as good as it gets for bait IMO. Sometimes I add a little skunk smell lure.

Does have a gestation period on average of 201 days. Count 201 days from the peak of the rut. If your buck to doe ratio is good the majority of the fawn season should be plus or minus 30 days from that date. I think our fawn season is from April 25 to June 25 for most years.

Guess he thinks your coyotes are vegetarians