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#653581 - 03/27/08 03:41 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: playin4funami]
DanielE Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 5066
Loc: Eastern NC
Another benefit of the lams is the stiffening of the jaws. In my book...that's a big advantage that's often overlooked.

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#653644 - 03/27/08 04:18 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: playin4funami]
DFronek Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 2332
Loc: N.e.WI. 45
 Originally Posted By: playin4funami
MChewk, I understand tounge in cheek,but I have rarely ever seen foot damage with a proper sized trap and a non-laminated jaw,we also have 24 hr trap checks here, so maybe if left longer in the trap it would cause problems. I have seen some damage when an incidental gets in a trap not meant for them, example: muskrat in a beaver foothold. Otherwise where do you get these thin jawed sharp jaws?I've never seen them!Unless of coarse your sharpening yours? \:\)


Any trap with stamped out jaws are considered sharp IMO, victors were the worst and blake and lambs 1.5's and Dukes at a time but they have gotten better. When set for the intended animal on a 24 hour check you don't see alot of damage,but that's not always the case nor the intended animal such as using a #3 for coyotes but you catch a coon or fox.And if you go a smaller trap say a 1.75 your setting yourself up eventually for failure. Trappers like O'Gorman and Pederson already had this figured out along time ago that mods work. They probably forgot more than most of us will ever know.

Heres one of my favorite pics a 2 toed hind foot catch on a coyote in a #3 Montana with outside lams of 1/4". The angle doesn't show the lams.Caught Dead Center on a center swiveled trap.Coyotes have alot more power to power out of a trap when hind foot caught.But the Center swiveling and lams held just fine. Alot of times from my past experiences with unmodified traps I could catch them that way too, just minus the coyote or fox.

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#653647 - 03/27/08 04:20 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: DanielE]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2655
Loc: Northern Illinois
Playin4...I was refering to the #2 Victor coils and the many look-a-likes of yesteryear.

Been trapping for a while and have seen better results WITH the trap mod.s.

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#653701 - 03/27/08 04:49 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: MChewk]
playin4funami Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 1881
Loc: nebraska
Okay, I agree with that,some of those high production trap years had alot of problems.the #2 victor coil was a peice of junk in my opinion,cheaply built,and not a good trap at all for what they were advertised for.

blak coyote I don't see any jaw laminations in that photo?,but assuming they are there,I've held yotes and foxes exactly like that without laminations many times. That photo really doesn't prove anything to me as that yote could have left you with only two toes if it had fought harder or pulled out. More surface= less holding power no matter how you slice it. I'm not trying to tell you how to trap-do what works for you best,confidence is #1 in my book. If you think the only way to hold a yote is with lams them go for it.

D Edinger, yes it does give some backbone to the jaws,but remember that the individual jaw is only as strong as it's weakest point, and therefore will still flex at those points.

Remember I'm not knocking anyones way of doing things,just debating a topic that there is probably no correct answer for, but I still don't believe every first year trapper needs full modded traps to get started.
_________________________

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#653718 - 03/27/08 04:57 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: playin4funami]
DanielE Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 5066
Loc: Eastern NC
 Originally Posted By: playin4funami
D Edinger, yes it does give some backbone to the jaws,but remember that the individual jaw is only as strong as it's weakest point, and therefore will still flex at those points.


If a jaw bends on the ends, where the steel is parallel to the direction of pull...the something is terribly wrong. Just my $0.02.

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#653748 - 03/27/08 05:12 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: playin4funami]
huntinglonewolf Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 3838
Loc: Wyoming
playin4funami: You are correct when you say: but I still don't belive every first year trapper needs full modded traps to get started. Any new trap with nothing done to it will still catch animals. So the question to you is: Why do people who have been trapping for lots of years say that traps should be modified? Easy, they have tried and tested what works best.
_________________________
"Oh make no mistake, itís not revenge I'm afteróItís a reckoning":


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#653768 - 03/27/08 05:23 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: huntinglonewolf]
DanielE Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/30/06
Posts: 5066
Loc: Eastern NC
 Originally Posted By: huntinglonewolf
...but I still don't belive every first year trapper needs full modded traps to get started....


AMEN!

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#653799 - 03/27/08 05:40 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: huntinglonewolf]
lrjakes Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 1497
Loc: MD 36
Not all pros use all modifications. In fact I would dare guess that a majority of high production trappers do not always use super tricked out gear. I may be wrong.

I will agree that on some models of traps, the added strength is beneficial. And certainly there are some PR benefits.

Personally, I prefer lams for everything but drowning sets. But its not due to increased holding power. And i would still set all my unlaminated traps.

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#654273 - 03/27/08 09:20 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: playin4funami]
DFronek Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 2332
Loc: N.e.WI. 45
 Originally Posted By: playin4funami


blak coyote I don't see any jaw laminations in that photo?,but assuming they are there,I've held yotes and foxes exactly like that without laminations many times. That photo really doesn't prove anything to me as that yote could have left you with only two toes if it had fought harder or pulled out. More surface= less holding power no matter how you slice it. I'm not trying to tell you how to trap-do what works for you best,confidence is #1 in my book. If you think the only way to hold a yote is with lams them go for it.



Didn't say it's the only way nor did I say all first year trappers need them. Just pointing out you'll hold more. Yes it's laminated.I can't see where that coyote could have fought harder,it was hind fooot caught in that pic,which is tougher to hold IMO. With regluar sheared jaws it could of just been toes like I've seen in the past. And it was mentioned the center is the weakest part. Use what you want but I've learned modifying helps insure not getting bit in the backside by a flaw in the trap. And you'll find a flaw eventually in a stock trap if you use them enough and trap enough.If your ok with losing an occassionally then modifying maybe isn't a concern. Not saying you won't lose an animal with a modified trap,but it'll be less often because of trap failure.

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#654311 - 03/27/08 09:39 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: DFronek]
playin4funami Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 1881
Loc: nebraska
I hope everyone understands that this is not a personal attack on the way anything is done by you.

please go back and read the original topic as we've slewed off course a little.

I guess I should have been more specific because now we are adding baseplate,extra springs,larger size springs,etc.
The original Question was about jaw laminations and if they help or hinder the holding abilities of an otherwise stock trap.

I too have some modified traps guys and like them in certain situations and not in some others. How many here use 100% of their traps fully modified and would not use any stock traps?
_________________________

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#654341 - 03/27/08 09:56 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: playin4funami]
huntinglonewolf Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/27/06
Posts: 3838
Loc: Wyoming
I have all mine fully modified and wouldn't use stock traps unless I wanted to trap coons. All my canine and cat traps are fully modified.
_________________________
"Oh make no mistake, itís not revenge I'm afteróItís a reckoning":


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#654427 - 03/27/08 10:50 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: playin4funami]
The Beav Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2796
Loc: Wisconsin
I played this game way back before some of you were born. I did the laminations I did the night latching I did the center swiveling. You know what I really didn't see where any of those things made a signifigant diffrence.
With traps of #2 AND #1.75 SIZE the animals foot will be centerd In the trap. And If that animal was caught high It's first lunge will have pulled the trap to center and down to It's pad. And that's as far as It will go as long as you have a stong trap.
I like to use this anolgy when discusing centerd swiveled traps.
If your truck Is bogged down will It be eaiser to pull It out from either side or from directly behind It? When pulling from the side you are actully pulling the truck In deeper. Same with a animals foot In a trap. And with the swivel hooked to the end of the trap you aren't placeing all the strain on the center of the trap like you do with a centerd mounted swivel. The center Is the weakest part of the trap. And when you place undo strain on the center of the trap frame you also place undo presure on the jaws. That's why you have to add laminations and base plates to centerd mounted swivel set ups.
So If you have a strong trap that Is correctly adjusted and has several swivels In the chain set up and you smooth off any sharp edges I feel that all the other mods are over kill.

Was the old #2 Vic Square jaw trap a good trap? Well for It's time and since it was advertized as a fox trap sure It was. Non of us ever had any trouble holding those light weight red fox in that trap. About the only mods we made were to cut down the pans. They were just to big and you had to many fox standing on the pan and the jaw at the same time. Hence lots of snapped empty traps. Cutting down the pans took care of that problem.
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The forum Know It All according to Muskrat

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#654590 - 03/28/08 06:58 AM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: The Beav]
DFronek Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 2332
Loc: N.e.WI. 45
Gary,your right . You don't need them for everything, especially if your on drowner's for coon. Like I mentioned I've been running all mods on my traps since 93. I was looking for a way to keep critters in the trap till 2:30 in the afternoon back then. We couldn't check traps before 6am by law and my job started at 6am till 2:30. Wanted to reduced cutting and numb feet because we all know where that escalates to. So I started modifying and it helped alot in cutting down losses and wrecked traps. Especially that #2 vic square jaw,I hate that trap.You don't always need to lam smaller traps unless your target like fox has the potential to take a coyote.I know guys catch coyotes in stock 1.75's and 1.5's and IMO it's playing Russian roulette, sooner or later your going to lose. How many posts during the season do you see where someone post a stock trap with the jaws blown.lol

Laminating larger traps is just good good sense when there's the potential for catch smaller critters that are worth a few bucks.But still most #3's stock will hold any coyote that comes along.

Play4 I agree this has strayed a bit. So heres my take on the lams and this is for ADC as well.

First with lams we're not dealing with a smooth face,just a wider face that distributes the pressure,it's still there. But what I like with lams over a cast jaw face is the ribbed effect and I believe it aids in holding. In a regular jaw the foot is held below the jaw well because it digs and the foot below the jaws is spilled over causing the foot to be jammed in a sense or rolled under the jaw like the hide. So if you look at this diagram below you'll still have that,but you'll also have depending on whether you have I/O lams or just one or the other a void between the lams and the jaw where the red arrows point. These voids will also fill in with hide and help IMO hold the foot and not allowing the slipping. I can see with a smooth face cast jaw the possibility for more or have a higher potential for slipping but not on a laminated jaw.At least that's what I think anyway. Maybe I'm out in left field. Who knows,I just know what works for me.

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#654626 - 03/28/08 07:51 AM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: DFronek]
lrjakes Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/03/07
Posts: 1497
Loc: MD 36
Ahhhh, Blak. Thanks for the illustration. I didnt realize what you meant by the "ribbed effect".

I like 1-1/2 coils with inside laminations for non drowning coon sets.

But i wouldnt laminate traps just for the sake of laminating.

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#654664 - 03/28/08 08:50 AM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: lrjakes]
MChewk Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 2655
Loc: Northern Illinois
What Blak says is correct regarding both check times....animal comfort AND the ribbed effect holding paw better that standard jaw. I can vouch for the effects of the ribbed effect...cleaning out the space in between the reg jaw and jaw lam.s when getting ready to prep traps before next season. This area usually has a bunch of fur and other debris in the space.

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#654854 - 03/28/08 11:01 AM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: MChewk]
Josh H. Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/24/06
Posts: 480
Loc: Michigan
I like laminations mainly for the increase in strength they add to the jaws. Laminations will prevent flexing and twisting, which can lead to popped jaws and such. Of course, there are ways to prevent popped jaws, but I still like minimal flexing of the jaws and base.
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#654938 - 03/28/08 11:46 AM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: MChewk]
ADC
Unregistered


 Originally Posted By: MChewk

This area usually has a bunch of fur and other debris in the space.


So then the jaw face is perfectly smooth again right?

-----------------

Ok pretend your finger is caught in a trap. The illustration on the left shows the jaw surfaces the blue indicates your finger. If the springs on both sets of jaws are equally strong, which set of jaws could you more easily pull your finger out of? Obviously the laminated jaws.

The illustration on the right shows where the position of the foot would be guided to when the trap is center swiveled (red chain, red arrow) and the green shows the position the foot is guided to if it's not center swiveled. Again imagine your finger in the trap, where you pull your finger towards to get the least pressure from the springs/levers so it would be easier to pull your finger out? Right where the red arrow is pointing obviously.



I still say the laminations and center swiveling don't help to stop pull outs unless you add stronger springs... etc... They are just good PR and easier on the animals should you decide to sell the feet. (live market, taxidermy, etc...)

Oh and Blak, you agree then that wide flat surfaces like on the cast jaws of the MB550 and 650C reduce the holding power of the traps? \:D

~ADC~

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#654967 - 03/28/08 11:58 AM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: ]
Wright Brothers Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 814
Loc: Pa
I see and understand your theories but, always a but, The red verses the green arrow, the red will have higher lockup of the levers. Yes? And a straight away pull verses a canted pull, Yes?

Myself I like modded traps, and enjoy these topics, carry on.
_________________________




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#654976 - 03/28/08 12:03 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: Wright Brothers]
ADC
Unregistered


 Originally Posted By: Wright Brothers
I see and understand your theories but, always a but, The red verses the green arrow, the red will have higher lockup of the levers. Yes? And a straight away pull verses a canted pull, Yes?


Awwwe... but the foot wouldn't actually be in that position only pulling towards that position. ;\) But even if it was the lever on the opposite side would be even higher equalizing out the pressure so to speak.

\:\)

~ADC~

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#655006 - 03/28/08 12:19 PM Re: debate jaw laminations [Re: ]
trapperkeck Offline
trapper

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 4120
Loc: Crofton, NE
No offense folks, but all this laminating, 4-coiling, base-plating is an awflul lot of extra work and $$$ to go through for very little, if any, benefit. I have been using stock Bridger and Sleepy Creek traps for yotes for years and have had very few misses or pullouts, even on non-target species. I caught my first two cats this year in stock Bridger #3s and there was negligable foot damage and one of them may have been in the trap for a couple of days (had a blizzard and could not get out to check). Now, admittedly, you will get some amount of foot damage on coon and fox, but with a 24 hour check, it really doesn't pay to go through all teh hupla!
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