Here's a pic of bat poo under a gable vent....they've been there a few yrs, I'm guessing.
This attic is not, and will never be a storage area and a pain to crawl vertically into thru the lil "hatch" in the bathroom ceiling.
I know cleaning it up will increase my income on this job, but don't think she'll want to pay for it when I see her next week.
Would y'all just leave it?

Trapjohn,

This is my .02 for you from my perspective.

I do offer guano mitigation services to clients who want it or need it.

I do however judge the scenario and provide them the best info possible to determine true
"need."

Guano left in place if the accumulation isn't causIng odor issues for them or other cursory problems
can be left in place in an attic or in wall or other voids in a structure.

Undisturbed guano is not a health risk in terms of histoplasmosis as it must be made airborne and inhaled
to cause your client any potential risk.

My clients get the straight story regardless of my interest in earning that aspect of services or if I'm just doing exclusion and
they ask about the guano.

Many clients will get online and scare themselves to death believing that guano is going to cause them to become infected and die
from histo.

Worse could many out there will use this fear to market to them that it is a massive risk and must be removed now or else...

I do like to remove it and replace the insulation, not that it is glamorous work or fun (access is always fun), but I also want to follow my clients true need to resolve the problems they see as problems while educating them on the reality of anything they might not be aware of.

So you could explain the guano and what you could offer but also explain that it is up to her if she wants it out.
Some of my clients don't really have any odor issues and have the same unused sryle of attic yet want it out for future sale of the house or other planned renovations.

Hope that helps it is just my perspective along with some facts in terms of left alone versus disturbed guano.

Best,

Justin

I can struggle with this one too. Especially when I see one of the big nationwide companies mentioned in the other thread give out complete attic restoration bids based on 4 droppings found in an attic. Totally uncalled for fear based selling. As far as the picture goes I can say that I have left some that were far worse but the people didn't want to or couldn't pay. And I have done attics that I wouldn't have done myself but the homeowners were insistent. Sometimes, it boils down to if insurance covers or not.

I started speaking to people and telling them what I would do if I were them. I have had to modify that a little and put myself in their economic shoes before I advise them. Sometimes, it involves collecting more data like the attic is never going to be used for storage vs. when they plan to sell the homebuyers's inspector is going to catch it.

Well said Bob!

I think in many instances where the customer insists that you re-insulate it is because he found out that his insurance company would

pay and he's exacting a little revenge for all those many many years of insurance premiums.

I usually sell a encapsulation..........

AKA,,,,,,cover the old with new blow in isolation.

Annndddddddddddddddddddddddd,,,,,,,,,,,,,, They get energy credits.

Give them a fair bid on doing the work properly and let the decision be theirs.

Blowing over it is the dead wrong thing to do.
It is not benign if left alone.
Histoplasmosa spores can be rendered airborne by vibrations such as those created by thunder storms or aircraft breaking the sound barrier.
If they ever sell their home any home inspector worth their salt will flag this and it will have to be done.

They can pay now or pay later.

Best of luck with your client.

Art,

Always willing to learn, do you have a citation for the vibrations from thunderstorms and aircraft making histoplasmosis airborne in bat or bird droppings?

Thanks,

Justin

I can't put my finger on the exact article but I read one either from the CDC or quoting the CDC where the recommendations for removal were revised to state that small amounts in areas that will not be normally accessible to the occupants or otherwise available for contact is safe to leave in situ. It also pointed out that the risk of cross contamination for an otherwise contained small amount outweighs the need for for removal.

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/nas/RDRP/appendices/chapter6/a6-133.pdf

Excerpt from above link:

Hazard Control
To reduce the health risks associated
with the removal of droppings various
methods have been developed. When an
accumulation of bat or bird manure is
discovered in a building, removing the
material is not always the next step.
Simply leaving the material alone if
it is in a location where no human
activity is likely may be the best
course of action. This is not always
possible, of course, and, if the
potential for human exposure exists,
methods of safely controlling the
risks during removal must be
undertaken.

This is what it's all about. Two completely different opinions on an important subject. You can't help but feel that no one is

completely wrong or right on this one, but you've already added some things you didn't know and there is probably more to come. And

outside of the electricity to run the computer ( which is partly tax deductible ) it doesn't cost me a thing!

It has been estimated that 80 percent of people living in endemic areas in the United States, specifically in Ohio and Mississippi River Valleys, have positive skin tests associated with histoplasmosis.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/wsh_histoplasmosis_232031_7.doc

I'll show her the pix and let her know about a future inspector, when selling the house, and let her decide.
Shes at least 80 and it'd be her heirs dealing with it probably.
Thanks so much.

I was told it is not in Western Washington,,,,,,, I would love proof that it is,..............

If done incorrectly it does indeed pose a risk of cross contamination.
If it a small quantity in a very sheltered area free from any construction gaps, it is of low risk. Part of the problem is that there is no clear definition of a small amount and contamination can occur through small cracks and gaps in drywall.
I know personally of two elderly people and one person with an immune disorder who have contracted Histoplasmosis from this scenario. 2 out of 3 died from it.


Persons most at risk are:
Young children whose immune systems have not fully developed yet (think 6 and under)
Elderly people whose immune systems are declining (think 70 and over)
Anyone with an immune disorder

Protocol for remediation is similar to asbestos.
If you are unsure how to set up containment and safely execute a remediation project, you should get the training or refer the job to someone else.
Histoplasmosis can be stopped in its progression up to a certain point, but the damage it does to the body is permeant.
Please exercise good judgement before diving in head first, and take the time to learn the facts before dispensing advise to clients.

Remember the cardinal rule of wearing a full face HEPA filter respirator before ever opening the hatch. You never know what lies beyond.

Art,

Was hoping you would address your statement that histoplasmosis spores can be made airborne by thunderstorms and aircraft breaking the sound barrier.

In terms of the elderly folks who contracted and the two who died my question would relate to how many times in their lifetime were they exposed to histoplasmosis from bird droppings and other environmental scenarios? Just in terms of a long life many folks have swept up bird droppings, worked in barns, farms, on bridges or highway structures with heavy bird and yes bat droppings on them.

In order to tie in the bat guano in their own home to them contracting and dying of histoplasmosis it would take them having been tested prior to being exposed (testing clean) and then being tested post exposure to bat droppings as described to show any tie to that being the cause of their contracting it and their ultimate demise in the case of the 2.

Like any disease, airborne materials, parasites, etc... it takes a clear line of testing to prove how the epidemiological cycle took place.

Example, I see companies tear down gas station canopies all the time to put new ones up, most have heavy pigeon use and the employees of these canopy companies are often completely exposed to all airborne materials.

How many do you think are tested before they get hired to see if they have a positive histoplasmosis result, versus say 10 or 20 years from now a chronic infection results in their ultimate result of histoplasmosis infection and they look the last thing they did, not what they were doing 10 or 20 years ago.

If the elderly folks in the example you gave told you they just crawled through their attic that was full of droppings and then acutely became ill and died, we'd have a pretty good smoking gun though still possible they got it elsewhere. But did they get it from guano sealed inside a space that wasn't able to put histo spores in their living quarters? If so I'd be looking elsewhere for where the infection came from. Maybe they fed birds at a feeder and when they cleaned up the feeder or under it they were exposed to airborne spores that way and contracted it. Who knows, but extrapolation versus morbidity mortality results and case studies that are published is harder to believe in.

The persons most at risk from histo would pertain to literally any disease or virus. Even the old run of the mill flu is on that same level as would be things like salmonella infection from the little chicks kids adopt at easter and newborn rabbits during the same holiday.

I agree anyone going to offer folks guano mitigation or any mitigation of droppings or where other issues may be found should know what they are doing.

That said how many do get training of any kind on how to do it versus reading documents from CDC or OSHA or some other safety entity with written protocol or directions.

Even these are based only on the best available information at the time, not on total reality as often they aren't studied far enough due to lack of interest, lack of funding and lack of concern versus other serious illnesses and disease.

Folks can die from so many low grade simple things, the flu, food poisoning, basic infection from an open wound or scratch or sore. Since it is estimated that so many people have been exposed to histo (as Dave's statement referred to above), now lets imagine histoplasmosis is very very very serious, don't we believe the death toll would be far far greater and the attention on it would be extremely high. We'd know that organism inside and out and testing would be mandatory at your doctor due to it's persistence in the environment related to birds, let alone bats.

Like all things, I would agree "take the time to learn the facts before dispensing advise to clients," I think as well that knowing the true level of risk to a client is important so that it isn't overstated or understated and histoplasmosis is used as a scare tactic often enough that I hear of folks being told they can die from 5-10 bat droppings on their front stoop if they don't hire a company to do a complete insulation tear out, mitigation and ultimately exclusion....

I've worked with plague, rabies, tuberculosis, pseudorabies, brucellosis and a string of others I fail to think about anymore.

The world of zoonotic disease is an important part of a dialogue with many clients, however the knowledge base varies even wider than the skill sets in our industry and in health departments and in game and fish departments and every other entity who uses some of what they hear, some of what they read and then some just off the cuff what sounds sensible.

As long as people don't overstate the risks to sell jobs I don't have a big problem, but if someone is making what sound like scientific statements without scientific publications to refer to, to me that falls into the circular file category.

No one can know it all, but I'm trying hard to picture the graduate student sitting in someones guano filled attic with some type of monitoring devices waiting for a thunderstorm, or a jet to fly over so they can record airborne materials.... So if this is published fact on this organism, I'd seriously like to see it...

The latest rendition with updated info from CDC's website - a good read and watch how much emphasis is placed upon birds and the environment (tilling soil, etc..)

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-109/pdfs/2005-109.pdf

^^^^^^^^ ya that is what I tried to say^^^^..lol

Justin....you should charge for all that website content.

WOW, I will have to agree with Justins guano book he just wrote above..

In both cases of fatalities, the spouses tested positive as well.
When dealing with airborne particulate, weather it is asbestos or histo spores the result will be the same.
Dry particulate is easily rendered airborne by vibration.
If you doubt this go in to any attic, set up a strobe light, then have someone walk on the roof.

Not every scenario will develop an issue with Histoplasmosa spores being present, but if the potential is there and you ignore it or don't present the facts, you are liable. Your insurance will not help you and you will loose everything, as you should due to gross negligence.

You will get lots of keyboard experts and conjecture here and other places on the internet.
My advice and knowledge comes from many years in the field and literally thousands of projects worth of experience across the US, as well as consulting with the leading medical researchers in the field of airborne pathogens.

Morning Art,

Some clarification from the keyboard expert for you this morning just to be sure we stay on track with this little debate if you choose to continue.

"Dry particulate is easily rendered airborne by vibration. If you doubt this go in to any attic, set up a strobe light, then have someone walk on the roof."

What you stated in the previous posts that I asked about evidence of was that histoplasma spores can be made airborne by thunderstorms and jets breaking
the sound barrier.

I asked you if you had a reference for this from a scientific authority (medical community publication, CDC, NIOSH, etc...).

Your response was to say if your buddy or co-worker walks on the roof while your in the attic that you can see airborne particles in your light source.

I would never disagree that dust, dirt and debris are airborne or can be made so by someone walking on a roof, these are particles falling from the ceiling rafters and roofing structure. I live in a wind blown dusty state, so yes I certainly agree with this statement, which however does not relate to a small pile of bat guano or bird droppings on the floor on top of the insulation (the post that started the thread).

Once you are in the attic your movement stirs up dust and insulation and all kinds of things immediately very easy to see in a dark attic with a light source (head lamp, spotlight, flashlight, etc..).

My issue is that you are making a statement that left alone in an undisturbed attic your elderly clients still contracted histoplasmosis and died from it and that if you don't remove any amount of bat guano or bird droppings you are open for a lawsuit for gross negligence.

****

So my follow up questions for you would be this.

1) Are you stating there is no published report or written document that says that histoplasma is made airborne by vibrations from thunderstorms and jets breaking the sound barrier?

2) Do you have your clients tested for histoplasmosis before you conduct any mitigation or removal activities to cover your self liability wise?

3) Do you have a special testing you have done of the living quarters and the attic or other mitigation space to assure the levels of spores or that they are present or absence before you do your work?

4) Do you provide a guarantee there are no spores left in the attic space or other space following your mitigation work?

**"Not every scenario will develop an issue with Histoplasmosa spores being present,**

Histoplasma doesn't occur everywhere and you aren't testing to see if it is there before hand just stating it is a potential risk with bat or bird droppings.

**but if the potential is there and you ignore it or don't present the facts, you are liable.**

Liable is a great term and pretty much relates to everything under the sun if the lawyer wants to go after you. You can be held liable whether you do the clean up right or not technically, it will then be up to you to prove whether they already had it or not, whether there were spores there or not, whether you did anything to contribute during your clean up or not, all of which is up to them to prove as well, but in the end liable just means someone trying to prove something was done wrong by someone else and that can go either way in life, regardless of the scenario in question.

**Your insurance will not help you and you will loose everything, as you should due to gross negligence. **

Stating you will lose everything as you should due to gross negligence are you saying if you don't remove it (guano), if you don't suggest removing it, or if you don't suggest that it could be an issue?

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but no operator I've ever heard of is having the occupants of the house tested prior to mitigation (you have no baseline that they aren't already someone who contracted histoplasmosis (as it is so often non fatal, massive amounts of people would test positive but never develop chronic illness and ultimately death).

No operator I know of is testing the actual guano or bird droppings either to show that the spores are actually present or absent.

No operator I know of is having the environmental conditions tested both in the living quarters and in the attic to assure they have baseline readings to protect themselves in court.

****

Finally, you are correct, lots of knowledge from keyboard experts online, the question is who the new guy or gal follows as they enter this field and
decide to start conducting these types of clean outs and having these discussions about disease, parasites, etc...

I'm not suggesting it is me, however I am suggesting anyone going to use phrases, terms and suggest links and connections to illness and concerns use the most pertinent up to date information.

I take nothing away from you Art for being an operator who uses a particular protocol, uses a particular way of thinking you've developed and that you have years of experience across the states with thousands of projects. Ultimately you've made your business work for you and that is great, good for you!

What I am stating is that if you want to talk liable, it is a quick road there when we don't realize just how open to potential prosecution we open a small business and start giving advice and services to the public. We are all liable, just depends on the lawyer and the "facts," I prefer to base mine on published literature so there is at least a point of foundation for my legal case if it comes to that.

If you think through the issues of not testing before and doing this kind of work, most would hang it up if they thought histo was such a big risk and concern as lawsuits would be low hanging fruit from the guys and gals going into someones attic, often with no respirator, not even a dust mask, using a shovel (talk about vibration) and walking around scooping up insulation or guano or bird droppings, coming down often with no clean room, no sanitary way to get out of the house or building and ultimately setting themselves up for "did you do this according to any guiding documents," "how do you know you didn't expose these homeowners to the spores yourself when they were safe before?"

In reality most companies would be better off likely on the liable end not doing clean outs as proof is beyond difficult once the right lawyer gets after it....

I am Mikes new partner in bat work, and am learning a lot of new things. The question came up today with a client who had been sold on the idea (by a pest control company) of an attic clean out due to relatively small amout of guano in the attic and very alarming to the client, the threat of histoplasmosis. My partner explained that small amounts of guano were not likely to cause health problems and advised the client against the cost of an attic clean out. I have been searching out reputable sources for answers to this question and after reading material from the CDC was surprised to see references to the dangers of sonic booms and thunder storms, lol. I want to thank HD wildlife for clearing things up with your excellent comments well grounded in current research by reputable sources. It means a great deal to a newbie like myself. The question I have is how much is too much poop? I did see that attic spaces not used for storage are okay to leave, but otherwise there is reference with vague language like "an accumulation," or "significant amounts" to describe when an attic clean out is recommended. HD wildlife, I am particularly interest in your thoughts on this given your well thought out responses regarding sonic booms, thunder storms, and losing everything due to negligence I would like to hear from anyone who has a rule of thumb regarding what constitutes and unacceptable "accumulation" in the attic space. Most attics with bats that I have seen have dropping evidence, but I would hardly consider it a significant amount. I look forward to your thoughts.

Mike's new partner, you will find answers to your posts will be very slow in coming this time of the year. Besides fur trapping, this

time of the year we have archery, upland birds, waterfowl, and the gun season for deer will be underway shortly. I think it should be

required that as all these guys come wandering back to the computer, they have to tell us what they got and what they missed!

Mike the standard I use is accumulation of three inches. Its what I was told but embarrassingly did not ask for a source. But that's what I go by.

Paul, deer season is over out here and I didn't bother trying to get out. I hope to for squirrels soon and maybe pheasants for the first time. I am a notoriously bad wing shooter but I went out for waterfowl at a mudflat last week and hit a triple on Canadas first thing. I have never hit two of anything let alone three.. That's more waterfowl than I took the last three seasons! I then got a mallard and missed a few more ducks. Still happy about it. I am getting the three skulls cleaned and mounted on a plaque together.

Mike's New Partner,

Thanks for the kind words, in terms of your new question, there are certainly going to be lots of opinions and many of those folks I learned my ideas from and then of course you create
your own ideas as to what works in your area, in your experience, etc... over time...

So I'll voice my own thoughts, others will do the same and you can draw your conclusions based on what sounds best to you that compliments the current thoughts you have as an operator.

To clarify the new questions are:

1) How much is too much poop?

2) What is a rule of thumb regarding what constitutes an unacceptable accumulation in the attic space?

*******

First I would have to state that the client is one aspect of this equation that can make the decision for you.

What I mean by that is that you may document (photograph) and show the client that you see only a small area with enough guano
to fill let us say a one cup measuring device from the kitchen.

To me, that would not constitute in a typical attic scenario a need to remove it or the insulation, though exclusion may be agreed upon
and that work performed.

The client however may see your picture, have their own idea and say I wish to have all of the insulation removed and the guano as well, how much
to make that happen?

In that case, they are expressing their desire for your service regardless of you expressing the low risks or concerns with this little bit of guano in the attic.

*******

In terms of what is significant and what isn't, that is very open to suggestion. What you may think is serious, I may not, another operator may fall in between...

Based on my experience in my region, when guano and urine have been deposited by bats for a number of years and the odor is evident, most want the guano
gone and insulation mitigated (removed, replaced).

I have had places where in one case several hundred bats living in exterior wall behind brick, never entered attic space, but because the house was old, the insulation
was rock wool style batts and they had mouse issues over the years, the folks wanted me to remove all the insulation and clean up any animal related droppings, nothing to
do with bats but still yielded insulation mitigation.

I have more colonies in wall voids and inaccessible areas (not attics) than I do attic spaces due to architecture, etc....thus my guano removal suggestions vary widely depending
on what would be needed to remove it (removing all drywall for example to reach all of it in a 3 story condo unit with guano and insulation all down inside the walls).

*****

In the end again it is subjective, I do not favor telling people their lives are going to be coming to an end if they don't remove the gallon sized amount from an attic void, however I
will present the facts, describe that we can remove this and if need be remove and replace the insulation just in that location and often folks want it done.

Attics where there exists a 3"-12" thick layer of guano and dead bats on top of insulation I consider that significant and I've yet to have a client who doesn't want that out due to
cursory issues they are dealing with already.

I do not believe there is a document that says what is significant, however I think most of this is fluid or obvious depending on what you see during your inspection and what your interview of the client about the issues reveals to you.

I hope that helps, thats about the easiest way I can think of to say "it depends" which is very true, but not very helpful... lol...

I'm sure others will chime in as they have time, again I've learned from guys on here and within the industry so other than what I've learned that is site specific for me, much of what I'm talking about is second hand knowledge from others that are well known for bat work, guano mitigation and so forth...

Justin

In terms of removing guano, the CDC guidelines are a good starting point but there are three definitive situations you can always use when talking with clients - weight, odor, and parasites.

First is the amount of guano. Trying to come up with a "minimum" amount of accumulation is difficult. If you service an area that is a known histoplasmosis area, the amount may be smaller than if you're servicing an area where cases are not common. Additionally, when you say a height of "X" inches you also should include "X" amount of distance. Let's face it, a pile of guano 3" x 12" is not the same clean out issue as a 1/2"-1" accumulation over 20 sq ft or a 2" pile sitting beside a chimney that measures 3" wide by 25" long. Other factors that you also need to consider are state of the guano (is it fresh, exposed to water/urine, broken down to a soil like consistency, etc.) as well as possible hidden guano under the insulation (i.e., new insulation was installed on top to hide it). You also have other "disturbances" like Justin mentioned that may justify a quote such as water damage, rodent tunnels, or crushed insulation. This makes quoting removal a judgement call for the operator in most cases (just to make sure everyone understands my thoughts here, there is a big difference between quoting removal of a 3 inch pile of guano and quoting an entire attic insulation removal because of the guano pile). However, when there is a structural issue with the ceiling that could lead to it collapsing (in my experience, this is mainly when working with churches or residential homes that also have a water issue) due to the weight above, then it makes sense to quote the removal.

Second is odor. The only way to resolve an odor issue is to either remove the source of the odor, or encapsulate it in such a manner that all gasses that create the odor are trapped and cannot escape. Encapsulation is almost impossible for attic odors, so when odor is an issue once again it makes sense to quote the removal.

Last is parasites. To effectively treat for bat bugs, fleas, etc. you need to remove any harborage areas the insects can use. Additionally, many of these insects will require crack and crevice treatments so you have to expose these areas as well for proper treatment to occur. Of course, when working with parasites we get right back to the "how many is too many" question. While I once again feel this is subjective to the operator, in my experience you either find a good number of them or you don't find them. I've never seen just one bat bug on a project that had bat bug issues once I started looking for them. I have seen low numbers (5 - 10) as well as very high numbers (30+ in a one foot area). Sometimes I've quoted insulation removal and parasite treatment, sometimes I've quoted just insulation removal, and sometimes I've not quoted anything. Again, this will all be situation and operator dependent with no real good lines drawn in the sand rules to go by.

Hopefully, this makes sense to those wondering when they should quote or not quote guano removal services. Again, it will always be situation dependent but if you focus on weight, odor, and parasites you will have a good starting point not only for producing quotes, but also for educating your clients.