Morning Art,

Some clarification from the keyboard expert for you this morning just to be sure we stay on track with this little debate if you choose to continue.

"Dry particulate is easily rendered airborne by vibration. If you doubt this go in to any attic, set up a strobe light, then have someone walk on the roof."

What you stated in the previous posts that I asked about evidence of was that histoplasma spores can be made airborne by thunderstorms and jets breaking
the sound barrier.

I asked you if you had a reference for this from a scientific authority (medical community publication, CDC, NIOSH, etc...).

Your response was to say if your buddy or co-worker walks on the roof while your in the attic that you can see airborne particles in your light source.

I would never disagree that dust, dirt and debris are airborne or can be made so by someone walking on a roof, these are particles falling from the ceiling rafters and roofing structure. I live in a wind blown dusty state, so yes I certainly agree with this statement, which however does not relate to a small pile of bat guano or bird droppings on the floor on top of the insulation (the post that started the thread).

Once you are in the attic your movement stirs up dust and insulation and all kinds of things immediately very easy to see in a dark attic with a light source (head lamp, spotlight, flashlight, etc..).

My issue is that you are making a statement that left alone in an undisturbed attic your elderly clients still contracted histoplasmosis and died from it and that if you don't remove any amount of bat guano or bird droppings you are open for a lawsuit for gross negligence.

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So my follow up questions for you would be this.

1) Are you stating there is no published report or written document that says that histoplasma is made airborne by vibrations from thunderstorms and jets breaking the sound barrier?

2) Do you have your clients tested for histoplasmosis before you conduct any mitigation or removal activities to cover your self liability wise?

3) Do you have a special testing you have done of the living quarters and the attic or other mitigation space to assure the levels of spores or that they are present or absence before you do your work?

4) Do you provide a guarantee there are no spores left in the attic space or other space following your mitigation work?

**"Not every scenario will develop an issue with Histoplasmosa spores being present,**

Histoplasma doesn't occur everywhere and you aren't testing to see if it is there before hand just stating it is a potential risk with bat or bird droppings.

**but if the potential is there and you ignore it or don't present the facts, you are liable.**

Liable is a great term and pretty much relates to everything under the sun if the lawyer wants to go after you. You can be held liable whether you do the clean up right or not technically, it will then be up to you to prove whether they already had it or not, whether there were spores there or not, whether you did anything to contribute during your clean up or not, all of which is up to them to prove as well, but in the end liable just means someone trying to prove something was done wrong by someone else and that can go either way in life, regardless of the scenario in question.

**Your insurance will not help you and you will loose everything, as you should due to gross negligence. **

Stating you will lose everything as you should due to gross negligence are you saying if you don't remove it (guano), if you don't suggest removing it, or if you don't suggest that it could be an issue?

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong, but no operator I've ever heard of is having the occupants of the house tested prior to mitigation (you have no baseline that they aren't already someone who contracted histoplasmosis (as it is so often non fatal, massive amounts of people would test positive but never develop chronic illness and ultimately death).

No operator I know of is testing the actual guano or bird droppings either to show that the spores are actually present or absent.

No operator I know of is having the environmental conditions tested both in the living quarters and in the attic to assure they have baseline readings to protect themselves in court.

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Finally, you are correct, lots of knowledge from keyboard experts online, the question is who the new guy or gal follows as they enter this field and
decide to start conducting these types of clean outs and having these discussions about disease, parasites, etc...

I'm not suggesting it is me, however I am suggesting anyone going to use phrases, terms and suggest links and connections to illness and concerns use the most pertinent up to date information.

I take nothing away from you Art for being an operator who uses a particular protocol, uses a particular way of thinking you've developed and that you have years of experience across the states with thousands of projects. Ultimately you've made your business work for you and that is great, good for you!

What I am stating is that if you want to talk liable, it is a quick road there when we don't realize just how open to potential prosecution we open a small business and start giving advice and services to the public. We are all liable, just depends on the lawyer and the "facts," I prefer to base mine on published literature so there is at least a point of foundation for my legal case if it comes to that.

If you think through the issues of not testing before and doing this kind of work, most would hang it up if they thought histo was such a big risk and concern as lawsuits would be low hanging fruit from the guys and gals going into someones attic, often with no respirator, not even a dust mask, using a shovel (talk about vibration) and walking around scooping up insulation or guano or bird droppings, coming down often with no clean room, no sanitary way to get out of the house or building and ultimately setting themselves up for "did you do this according to any guiding documents," "how do you know you didn't expose these homeowners to the spores yourself when they were safe before?"

In reality most companies would be better off likely on the liable end not doing clean outs as proof is beyond difficult once the right lawyer gets after it....

I am Mikes new partner in bat work, and am learning a lot of new things. The question came up today with a client who had been sold on the idea (by a pest control company) of an attic clean out due to relatively small amout of guano in the attic and very alarming to the client, the threat of histoplasmosis. My partner explained that small amounts of guano were not likely to cause health problems and advised the client against the cost of an attic clean out. I have been searching out reputable sources for answers to this question and after reading material from the CDC was surprised to see references to the dangers of sonic booms and thunder storms, lol. I want to thank HD wildlife for clearing things up with your excellent comments well grounded in current research by reputable sources. It means a great deal to a newbie like myself. The question I have is how much is too much poop? I did see that attic spaces not used for storage are okay to leave, but otherwise there is reference with vague language like "an accumulation," or "significant amounts" to describe when an attic clean out is recommended. HD wildlife, I am particularly interest in your thoughts on this given your well thought out responses regarding sonic booms, thunder storms, and losing everything due to negligence I would like to hear from anyone who has a rule of thumb regarding what constitutes and unacceptable "accumulation" in the attic space. Most attics with bats that I have seen have dropping evidence, but I would hardly consider it a significant amount. I look forward to your thoughts.

Mike's new partner, you will find answers to your posts will be very slow in coming this time of the year. Besides fur trapping, this

time of the year we have archery, upland birds, waterfowl, and the gun season for deer will be underway shortly. I think it should be

required that as all these guys come wandering back to the computer, they have to tell us what they got and what they missed!

Mike the standard I use is accumulation of three inches. Its what I was told but embarrassingly did not ask for a source. But that's what I go by.

Paul, deer season is over out here and I didn't bother trying to get out. I hope to for squirrels soon and maybe pheasants for the first time. I am a notoriously bad wing shooter but I went out for waterfowl at a mudflat last week and hit a triple on Canadas first thing. I have never hit two of anything let alone three.. That's more waterfowl than I took the last three seasons! I then got a mallard and missed a few more ducks. Still happy about it. I am getting the three skulls cleaned and mounted on a plaque together.

Mike's New Partner,

Thanks for the kind words, in terms of your new question, there are certainly going to be lots of opinions and many of those folks I learned my ideas from and then of course you create
your own ideas as to what works in your area, in your experience, etc... over time...

So I'll voice my own thoughts, others will do the same and you can draw your conclusions based on what sounds best to you that compliments the current thoughts you have as an operator.

To clarify the new questions are:

1) How much is too much poop?

2) What is a rule of thumb regarding what constitutes an unacceptable accumulation in the attic space?

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First I would have to state that the client is one aspect of this equation that can make the decision for you.

What I mean by that is that you may document (photograph) and show the client that you see only a small area with enough guano
to fill let us say a one cup measuring device from the kitchen.

To me, that would not constitute in a typical attic scenario a need to remove it or the insulation, though exclusion may be agreed upon
and that work performed.

The client however may see your picture, have their own idea and say I wish to have all of the insulation removed and the guano as well, how much
to make that happen?

In that case, they are expressing their desire for your service regardless of you expressing the low risks or concerns with this little bit of guano in the attic.

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In terms of what is significant and what isn't, that is very open to suggestion. What you may think is serious, I may not, another operator may fall in between...

Based on my experience in my region, when guano and urine have been deposited by bats for a number of years and the odor is evident, most want the guano
gone and insulation mitigated (removed, replaced).

I have had places where in one case several hundred bats living in exterior wall behind brick, never entered attic space, but because the house was old, the insulation
was rock wool style batts and they had mouse issues over the years, the folks wanted me to remove all the insulation and clean up any animal related droppings, nothing to
do with bats but still yielded insulation mitigation.

I have more colonies in wall voids and inaccessible areas (not attics) than I do attic spaces due to architecture, etc....thus my guano removal suggestions vary widely depending
on what would be needed to remove it (removing all drywall for example to reach all of it in a 3 story condo unit with guano and insulation all down inside the walls).

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In the end again it is subjective, I do not favor telling people their lives are going to be coming to an end if they don't remove the gallon sized amount from an attic void, however I
will present the facts, describe that we can remove this and if need be remove and replace the insulation just in that location and often folks want it done.

Attics where there exists a 3"-12" thick layer of guano and dead bats on top of insulation I consider that significant and I've yet to have a client who doesn't want that out due to
cursory issues they are dealing with already.

I do not believe there is a document that says what is significant, however I think most of this is fluid or obvious depending on what you see during your inspection and what your interview of the client about the issues reveals to you.

I hope that helps, thats about the easiest way I can think of to say "it depends" which is very true, but not very helpful... lol...

I'm sure others will chime in as they have time, again I've learned from guys on here and within the industry so other than what I've learned that is site specific for me, much of what I'm talking about is second hand knowledge from others that are well known for bat work, guano mitigation and so forth...

Justin

In terms of removing guano, the CDC guidelines are a good starting point but there are three definitive situations you can always use when talking with clients - weight, odor, and parasites.

First is the amount of guano. Trying to come up with a "minimum" amount of accumulation is difficult. If you service an area that is a known histoplasmosis area, the amount may be smaller than if you're servicing an area where cases are not common. Additionally, when you say a height of "X" inches you also should include "X" amount of distance. Let's face it, a pile of guano 3" x 12" is not the same clean out issue as a 1/2"-1" accumulation over 20 sq ft or a 2" pile sitting beside a chimney that measures 3" wide by 25" long. Other factors that you also need to consider are state of the guano (is it fresh, exposed to water/urine, broken down to a soil like consistency, etc.) as well as possible hidden guano under the insulation (i.e., new insulation was installed on top to hide it). You also have other "disturbances" like Justin mentioned that may justify a quote such as water damage, rodent tunnels, or crushed insulation. This makes quoting removal a judgement call for the operator in most cases (just to make sure everyone understands my thoughts here, there is a big difference between quoting removal of a 3 inch pile of guano and quoting an entire attic insulation removal because of the guano pile). However, when there is a structural issue with the ceiling that could lead to it collapsing (in my experience, this is mainly when working with churches or residential homes that also have a water issue) due to the weight above, then it makes sense to quote the removal.

Second is odor. The only way to resolve an odor issue is to either remove the source of the odor, or encapsulate it in such a manner that all gasses that create the odor are trapped and cannot escape. Encapsulation is almost impossible for attic odors, so when odor is an issue once again it makes sense to quote the removal.

Last is parasites. To effectively treat for bat bugs, fleas, etc. you need to remove any harborage areas the insects can use. Additionally, many of these insects will require crack and crevice treatments so you have to expose these areas as well for proper treatment to occur. Of course, when working with parasites we get right back to the "how many is too many" question. While I once again feel this is subjective to the operator, in my experience you either find a good number of them or you don't find them. I've never seen just one bat bug on a project that had bat bug issues once I started looking for them. I have seen low numbers (5 - 10) as well as very high numbers (30+ in a one foot area). Sometimes I've quoted insulation removal and parasite treatment, sometimes I've quoted just insulation removal, and sometimes I've not quoted anything. Again, this will all be situation and operator dependent with no real good lines drawn in the sand rules to go by.

Hopefully, this makes sense to those wondering when they should quote or not quote guano removal services. Again, it will always be situation dependent but if you focus on weight, odor, and parasites you will have a good starting point not only for producing quotes, but also for educating your clients.