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Leave bat poop? #5239936
10/22/15 08:35 AM
10/22/15 08:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,165
Central NC
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traprjohn Offline OP
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traprjohn  Offline OP
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Here's a pic of bat poo under a gable vent....they've been there a few yrs, I'm guessing.
This attic is not, and will never be a storage area and a pain to crawl vertically into thru the lil "hatch" in the bathroom ceiling.
I know cleaning it up will increase my income on this job, but don't think she'll want to pay for it when I see her next week.
Would y'all just leave it?


Last edited by traprjohn; 10/22/15 08:36 AM. Reason: add pic

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Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5239945
10/22/15 08:51 AM
10/22/15 08:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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NM
Trapjohn,

This is my .02 for you from my perspective.

I do offer guano mitigation services to clients who want it or need it.

I do however judge the scenario and provide them the best info possible to determine true
"need."

Guano left in place if the accumulation isn't causIng odor issues for them or other cursory problems
can be left in place in an attic or in wall or other voids in a structure.

Undisturbed guano is not a health risk in terms of histoplasmosis as it must be made airborne and inhaled
to cause your client any potential risk.

My clients get the straight story regardless of my interest in earning that aspect of services or if I'm just doing exclusion and
they ask about the guano.

Many clients will get online and scare themselves to death believing that guano is going to cause them to become infected and die
from histo.

Worse could many out there will use this fear to market to them that it is a massive risk and must be removed now or else...

I do like to remove it and replace the insulation, not that it is glamorous work or fun (access is always fun), but I also want to follow my clients true need to resolve the problems they see as problems while educating them on the reality of anything they might not be aware of.

So you could explain the guano and what you could offer but also explain that it is up to her if she wants it out.
Some of my clients don't really have any odor issues and have the same unused sryle of attic yet want it out for future sale of the house or other planned renovations.

Hope that helps it is just my perspective along with some facts in terms of left alone versus disturbed guano.

Best,

Justin

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5240278
10/22/15 03:26 PM
10/22/15 03:26 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 95
Florida
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bjansma Offline
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I can struggle with this one too. Especially when I see one of the big nationwide companies mentioned in the other thread give out complete attic restoration bids based on 4 droppings found in an attic. Totally uncalled for fear based selling. As far as the picture goes I can say that I have left some that were far worse but the people didn't want to or couldn't pay. And I have done attics that I wouldn't have done myself but the homeowners were insistent. Sometimes, it boils down to if insurance covers or not.

I started speaking to people and telling them what I would do if I were them. I have had to modify that a little and put myself in their economic shoes before I advise them. Sometimes, it involves collecting more data like the attic is never going to be used for storage vs. when they plan to sell the homebuyers's inspector is going to catch it.


Bob Jansma
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5240327
10/22/15 04:30 PM
10/22/15 04:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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Well said Bob!

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5240596
10/22/15 09:05 PM
10/22/15 09:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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I think in many instances where the customer insists that you re-insulate it is because he found out that his insurance company would

pay and he's exacting a little revenge for all those many many years of insurance premiums.

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5240923
10/23/15 01:40 AM
10/23/15 01:40 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,243
NWWA/AZ
Vinke Offline
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I usually sell a encapsulation..........

AKA,,,,,,cover the old with new blow in isolation.

Annndddddddddddddddddddddddd,,,,,,,,,,,,,, They get energy credits.


Slightly used Shoes 4 sale……………
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5247150
10/28/15 12:01 AM
10/28/15 12:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 52
E Central MO
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Art Lee Offline
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E Central MO
Give them a fair bid on doing the work properly and let the decision be theirs.

Blowing over it is the dead wrong thing to do.
It is not benign if left alone.
Histoplasmosa spores can be rendered airborne by vibrations such as those created by thunder storms or aircraft breaking the sound barrier.
If they ever sell their home any home inspector worth their salt will flag this and it will have to be done.

They can pay now or pay later.

Best of luck with your client.


People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's easier to pick on rich women than bikers.


http://wildlifecontrolsolutions.com
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: Art Lee] #5247184
10/28/15 12:40 AM
10/28/15 12:40 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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Originally Posted By: Art Lee
It is not benign if left alone. Histoplasmosa spores can be rendered airborne by vibrations such as those created by thunder storms or aircraft breaking the sound barrier.


Art,

Always willing to learn, do you have a citation for the vibrations from thunderstorms and aircraft making histoplasmosis airborne in bat or bird droppings?

Thanks,

Justin

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5247456
10/28/15 10:09 AM
10/28/15 10:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 25,432
Georgia
warrior Offline
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I can't put my finger on the exact article but I read one either from the CDC or quoting the CDC where the recommendations for removal were revised to state that small amounts in areas that will not be normally accessible to the occupants or otherwise available for contact is safe to leave in situ. It also pointed out that the risk of cross contamination for an otherwise contained small amount outweighs the need for for removal.


[Linked Image]
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5247482
10/28/15 10:35 AM
10/28/15 10:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 95
Florida
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bjansma Offline
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Florida
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/nas/RDRP/appendices/chapter6/a6-133.pdf

Excerpt from above link:

Hazard Control
To reduce the health risks associated
with the removal of droppings various
methods have been developed. When an
accumulation of bat or bird manure is
discovered in a building, removing the
material is not always the next step.
Simply leaving the material alone if
it is in a location where no human
activity is likely may be the best
course of action. This is not always
possible, of course, and, if the
potential for human exposure exists,
methods of safely controlling the
risks during removal must be
undertaken.


Bob Jansma
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5247527
10/28/15 11:15 AM
10/28/15 11:15 AM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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This is what it's all about. Two completely different opinions on an important subject. You can't help but feel that no one is

completely wrong or right on this one, but you've already added some things you didn't know and there is probably more to come. And

outside of the electricity to run the computer ( which is partly tax deductible ) it doesn't cost me a thing!

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5247967
10/28/15 05:13 PM
10/28/15 05:13 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 25
Michigan
DaveK Offline
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Michigan
It has been estimated that 80 percent of people living in endemic areas in the United States, specifically in Ohio and Mississippi River Valleys, have positive skin tests associated with histoplasmosis.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/wsh_histoplasmosis_232031_7.doc

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5248405
10/28/15 10:02 PM
10/28/15 10:02 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 11,165
Central NC
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traprjohn Offline OP
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I'll show her the pix and let her know about a future inspector, when selling the house, and let her decide.
Shes at least 80 and it'd be her heirs dealing with it probably.
Thanks so much.


www.sevenoakstrappingsupplies.com for trap mods and gear
The 10 Commandments are not suggestions.
Buy a soldiers meal EVERY chance you can.

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5248459
10/28/15 10:34 PM
10/28/15 10:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,243
NWWA/AZ
Vinke Offline
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Quote:
DaveK Offline
trapper

Registered: 29/01/14
Posts: 3
Loc: Michigan
It has been estimated that 80 percent of people living in endemic areas in the United States, specifically in Ohio and Mississippi River Valleys, have positive skin tests associated with histoplasmosis.


I was told it is not in Western Washington,,,,,,, I would love proof that it is,..............


Slightly used Shoes 4 sale……………
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5248574
10/29/15 01:43 AM
10/29/15 01:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 52
E Central MO
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Art Lee Offline
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If done incorrectly it does indeed pose a risk of cross contamination.
If it a small quantity in a very sheltered area free from any construction gaps, it is of low risk. Part of the problem is that there is no clear definition of a small amount and contamination can occur through small cracks and gaps in drywall.
I know personally of two elderly people and one person with an immune disorder who have contracted Histoplasmosis from this scenario. 2 out of 3 died from it.


Persons most at risk are:
Young children whose immune systems have not fully developed yet (think 6 and under)
Elderly people whose immune systems are declining (think 70 and over)
Anyone with an immune disorder

Protocol for remediation is similar to asbestos.
If you are unsure how to set up containment and safely execute a remediation project, you should get the training or refer the job to someone else.
Histoplasmosis can be stopped in its progression up to a certain point, but the damage it does to the body is permeant.
Please exercise good judgement before diving in head first, and take the time to learn the facts before dispensing advise to clients.

Remember the cardinal rule of wearing a full face HEPA filter respirator before ever opening the hatch. You never know what lies beyond.


People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's easier to pick on rich women than bikers.


http://wildlifecontrolsolutions.com
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5248580
10/29/15 02:11 AM
10/29/15 02:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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Art,

Was hoping you would address your statement that histoplasmosis spores can be made airborne by thunderstorms and aircraft breaking the sound barrier.

In terms of the elderly folks who contracted and the two who died my question would relate to how many times in their lifetime were they exposed to histoplasmosis from bird droppings and other environmental scenarios? Just in terms of a long life many folks have swept up bird droppings, worked in barns, farms, on bridges or highway structures with heavy bird and yes bat droppings on them.

In order to tie in the bat guano in their own home to them contracting and dying of histoplasmosis it would take them having been tested prior to being exposed (testing clean) and then being tested post exposure to bat droppings as described to show any tie to that being the cause of their contracting it and their ultimate demise in the case of the 2.

Like any disease, airborne materials, parasites, etc... it takes a clear line of testing to prove how the epidemiological cycle took place.

Example, I see companies tear down gas station canopies all the time to put new ones up, most have heavy pigeon use and the employees of these canopy companies are often completely exposed to all airborne materials.

How many do you think are tested before they get hired to see if they have a positive histoplasmosis result, versus say 10 or 20 years from now a chronic infection results in their ultimate result of histoplasmosis infection and they look the last thing they did, not what they were doing 10 or 20 years ago.

If the elderly folks in the example you gave told you they just crawled through their attic that was full of droppings and then acutely became ill and died, we'd have a pretty good smoking gun though still possible they got it elsewhere. But did they get it from guano sealed inside a space that wasn't able to put histo spores in their living quarters? If so I'd be looking elsewhere for where the infection came from. Maybe they fed birds at a feeder and when they cleaned up the feeder or under it they were exposed to airborne spores that way and contracted it. Who knows, but extrapolation versus morbidity mortality results and case studies that are published is harder to believe in.

The persons most at risk from histo would pertain to literally any disease or virus. Even the old run of the mill flu is on that same level as would be things like salmonella infection from the little chicks kids adopt at easter and newborn rabbits during the same holiday.

I agree anyone going to offer folks guano mitigation or any mitigation of droppings or where other issues may be found should know what they are doing.

That said how many do get training of any kind on how to do it versus reading documents from CDC or OSHA or some other safety entity with written protocol or directions.

Even these are based only on the best available information at the time, not on total reality as often they aren't studied far enough due to lack of interest, lack of funding and lack of concern versus other serious illnesses and disease.

Folks can die from so many low grade simple things, the flu, food poisoning, basic infection from an open wound or scratch or sore. Since it is estimated that so many people have been exposed to histo (as Dave's statement referred to above), now lets imagine histoplasmosis is very very very serious, don't we believe the death toll would be far far greater and the attention on it would be extremely high. We'd know that organism inside and out and testing would be mandatory at your doctor due to it's persistence in the environment related to birds, let alone bats.

Like all things, I would agree "take the time to learn the facts before dispensing advise to clients," I think as well that knowing the true level of risk to a client is important so that it isn't overstated or understated and histoplasmosis is used as a scare tactic often enough that I hear of folks being told they can die from 5-10 bat droppings on their front stoop if they don't hire a company to do a complete insulation tear out, mitigation and ultimately exclusion....

I've worked with plague, rabies, tuberculosis, pseudorabies, brucellosis and a string of others I fail to think about anymore.

The world of zoonotic disease is an important part of a dialogue with many clients, however the knowledge base varies even wider than the skill sets in our industry and in health departments and in game and fish departments and every other entity who uses some of what they hear, some of what they read and then some just off the cuff what sounds sensible.

As long as people don't overstate the risks to sell jobs I don't have a big problem, but if someone is making what sound like scientific statements without scientific publications to refer to, to me that falls into the circular file category.

No one can know it all, but I'm trying hard to picture the graduate student sitting in someones guano filled attic with some type of monitoring devices waiting for a thunderstorm, or a jet to fly over so they can record airborne materials.... So if this is published fact on this organism, I'd seriously like to see it...

The latest rendition with updated info from CDC's website - a good read and watch how much emphasis is placed upon birds and the environment (tilling soil, etc..)

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-109/pdfs/2005-109.pdf

Last edited by HD_Wildlife; 10/29/15 02:26 AM.
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5249868
10/30/15 01:38 AM
10/30/15 01:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,243
NWWA/AZ
Vinke Offline
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^^^^^^^^ ya that is what I tried to say^^^^..lol


Slightly used Shoes 4 sale……………
Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5250067
10/30/15 09:18 AM
10/30/15 09:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 25
Michigan
DaveK Offline
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Justin....you should charge for all that website content. smile

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5254987
11/03/15 01:58 AM
11/03/15 01:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 20
SOUTH CAROLINA
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SOUTHERN STEEL Offline
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WOW, I will have to agree with Justins guano book he just wrote above..

Re: Leave bat poop? [Re: traprjohn] #5261390
11/07/15 10:40 PM
11/07/15 10:40 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 52
E Central MO
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Art Lee Offline
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In both cases of fatalities, the spouses tested positive as well.
When dealing with airborne particulate, weather it is asbestos or histo spores the result will be the same.
Dry particulate is easily rendered airborne by vibration.
If you doubt this go in to any attic, set up a strobe light, then have someone walk on the roof.

Not every scenario will develop an issue with Histoplasmosa spores being present, but if the potential is there and you ignore it or don't present the facts, you are liable. Your insurance will not help you and you will loose everything, as you should due to gross negligence.

You will get lots of keyboard experts and conjecture here and other places on the internet.
My advice and knowledge comes from many years in the field and literally thousands of projects worth of experience across the US, as well as consulting with the leading medical researchers in the field of airborne pathogens.


People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's easier to pick on rich women than bikers.


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