As of tomorrow, we can officially begin bat exclusions. I guess somebody must have leaked this information to the bats and they

decided to leave early and avoid the rush. As usual, a few bats did not upgrade their GPS and found themselves flying around inside

of the house instead of outside. We had three calls before ten thirty last night and three more calls before six thirty this

morning. I don't recall quite that many bats flying around in people's houses but Green Bay played New England last night and maybe

they wanted to watch the game.

Wink,

Though we self impose our closed season here in NM which will end Aug. 31st, some of the pups we've had come in this year for rehab gave us
some great windows into the seasonality with some of the species we don't always see but are house and structure type bats.

We have at least 2 pups that are just starting to fly and at least one of those species is still nursing in terms of formula though it is attempting to
make its first flights now.

The house bats for us during July and August are nearly always pups that are mostly grown but like teenagers they don't have the best sensibility for
where to go to avoid trouble, they also seem to explore and leave colonies that are well established in attics/exteriors and end up inside the living space.

For many since we have vacation homes in much of our service area, no people around means we find dead bats when we inspect, again the preponderance
of them are young of the year.

We do get the occasional adult but generally the house cat is involved in those cases....

That is a good bunch of bat calls in one night! Busy busy!

Waiting for the weather to start cooling off here, has been a wet year, plenty of good in that for all wildlife, bats included, going to be a busy fall exclusion
season with holdovers for spring for all those that call from here on out...

It's interesting how they tell you they are ready...huh...wink? Interesting that you are behind us a week an a half...2 weeks.

Bat bugs are Nasty but I think they are host specific
And usually don't last long after the bats have vacated.

Justin, what is wrong with customers spraying
Water behind shutters to discourage bats from roosting
Under them? I have pest contracts with quite a few customers
That do it on a regular basis and it keeps the bats from using them.

Wrong thread, that was for the organic bat thread.

Hey Kasey,

First I agree with you the bugs make my skin crawl a bit, at least they did when I first started working around them, though having had many during survey work get on my
arm due to being dislodged overhead, I was able over time to watch their behavior a few minutes and as quick as they can they are heading back off you up to a higher location.

For example, if I had my arm out taking some photographs for a report my arm outstretched toward the bats with camera in hand. If the bat bug fell on my skin near my bicep, it would
start trekking for my hand on its way up to where the bats are.

With how many bat colonies I see or any of us see, I'd be curious how many homeowners have actual verified bites from bat bugs like they would get from bed bugs.

In my area people find them dead all the time or dying, but they never ever suggest they've had any bites, any rashes, itching, etc.... Since anything other than a bat would be a secondary host, I just think they are very specific in their preferences for blood meal.

****

In terms of the water spraying I guess I'll explain this in a bit of a long winded manner (no way! lol).

So if someone was to recommend a client or the general public just as technical assistance over the phone should take water and displace
bats from behind their shutters I would ask this of the company.

1) What time of day do you recommend the clients do the water treatment?

2) What device do they use for spraying the water behind the shutters, a hose, a weed sprayer with water in it, a small squirt bottle, a pressure washer?

3) What time of year is acceptable for this type of treatment?

***

There are other questions but let me stick to these three and why I don't favor this.

1) What time of day do you recommend the clients do the water treatment?

I ask this for one obvious reason to anyone working with bats. If it is close to nightfall and bats are about to emerge and you were to use some sort
of deemed appropriate level of water to give them an unpleasant time, to encourage them to choose elsewhere I could see how this would be the least
problem causing for the bats based on their activity level.

In other words if instead you tell the average bat caller who is a bit scared of bats to go outside without a stipulation of time of day they very likely will
do it when they feel most safe, which would be during the middle of the day when bats are in their typical torpor cycle. This would mean those bats
being flushed out (depending on question number 2) or hazed with water are going to in some number end up scattered, flying randomly, some hitting
the ground, shrubs, yard, before they finally wake and start flying away.

All of this makes quite a scene and would look erratic and cause the bats to look more fear inducing then they were simply sleeping behind the shutters
waiting to be properly excluded.

2) What device do they use for spraying the water behind the shutters, a hose, a weed sprayer with water in it, a small squirt bottle, a pressure washer?

We've all heard stories and this brings up my second point. People have what they have on hand. They generally aren't going to run out to buy something
if they are getting or looking for free advice, whatever is lying around is going to be used. So if I'm the homeowner I'd grab my garden hose that has a fixed
heavy spray nozzle on it turn on the water and start blasting away at the shutters in an attempt to motivate the bats to leave.

Bats are pretty amazing but they are certainly not the most sturdy, have thin wing membranes, thin finger and arm bones and are susceptible to damage that
can easily come through a heavy stream of water, let alone water stream plus impact when they fall to whatever is below before being able to take flight.

I am routinely told of highway contractors power washing entire maternity colonies of thousands of bats out of the way during maternity season across the
country. Not isolated events but actually more the norm as they are only concerned with moving forward with the project. I've had colleagues doing associated
biological work for the DOT standing on site as guys turn on power washing equipment and start blasting pups from crevices watching them plummet to the
ground below in hundreds and thousands stating "don't worry they'll fly away with their mothers later."

Now, when I heard this I thought, this has to be isolated to this industry, but since then I've had siding and roofing people do the same in my area alone and homeowners
who have taken a power washer that would cut a hole through your skin and blast it up beneath the drip edge of cedar and wood siding where the bats not only are pinned
in but water is being shot at an angle and duration into the homes exterior that is against why you side and cover it in the first place....

So I guess my question would be if you tell someone to use water, are they using the gentle stream of rain like action against the top of the shutters letting it cascade
down, or do they grab whatever seems best and rip away which to me is damaging to bats or at least potentially damaging when again typical exclusion can be done and
can resolve the issue with less materials than most of what we all exclude.

3) What time of year is acceptable for this type of treatment?

Finally, while any colony might be a bachelor colony are those recommending water spraying taking into account that maternity colonies of various species do use shutters
and louvers as roosts? As I mentioned on this thread, we still have non volant pups here and the company recommended the lady hit this colony with water. If that species of
bat or one of the others that isn't airborne yet with their pups does this action, pups go down, females fly off and again we have damaged the resource when exclusion could
have resolved it.

****

I guess my bottom line is if in what we tell people to do, we aren't explicit and follow similar though processes as we do for why we use exclusion, than our advice may
be too open for the DIY homeowner or maintenance worker at a commercial property to properly follow and this can cause death, harm, orphaning of pups all of which
can be avoided if simple exclusion is done.

I hope that explains it in terms of what I see and what I also hear first hand from respected colleagues. I of course get homeowners who hear some noises, aren't sure what
is behind there and rain down water and see bats fly out, but most of them turned the water off once they saw what was happening, not everyone would and since I would like to not only earn a living working with excluding bats, mitigating guano in attics and so forth, I would also never feel like I'm doing justice if I wasn't always thinking how I can resolve the issues without impacting bats with my methods (other than forcing them to relocate).

I never mind anymore the idea that some may consider me skewed toward bats, but frankly a 10 minute conversation with my clients leaves them understanding every time when I do this right for you and your family and your home, it is also what is right for the bats in terms of removing them properly through exclusion.

Yes there are situations we might struggle with, night roosting, etc.. but we are working on products to resolve those too without anything other than exclusion tactics and so far it is working and our clients our happy and the bats are displaced without any harm or sprays, etc....

It is a fair question though and I understand why you asked it, I hope I addressed my concern over it well.

Best,

Justin

Justin, I think perhaps Kasey's area might be experiencing what we are. There are as many bats as I've ever seen. I'm not a very good

bat expert but I believe that the vast majority of our bats are large browns and they seem to be doing just fine. I'm sure that the

great publicity from people such as yourself may have something to do with that but we certainly have our share of bats.

Paul, are there more bats, or more people?

There are 24 thousand people in our city. We probably have more horses than that. The city of Milwaukee has a little over 600,000

residents and we have a larger city in square miles than they do. I'm guessing that there are way more bats than that but I'll be

darned if I could get those bats to fill out a census form.

Wink,

To clarify my response at any given time about bats isn't because they are on the decline everywhere, or related to the population, but rather related to methodology
that excludes bats whenever possible without using tactics at times of day, time of year, etc... when the operator or those they instruct may cause harm, injury or death.

I'm not saying Kasey's clients are doing this either by using water, however it would depend on all those questions 1-3 above.

*******

Now, to the idea of how many bats there are or how many constitutes a healthy population, that is a much bigger ball of wax.

First bats being able to move about the landscape to reach food and water much further than terrestrial wildlife in a single night, means bat night roosting
in one area on a porch could be day roosting in someones attic on the other side of town. All depends of course on the resource availability and behavior
of the particular species, prey abundance, etc...

We as nuisance wildlife control operators though have an interesting view into the lives of bats that is nearly 100% through those who call us to invite us
to resolve their issues in exchange for our service fees.

Where the rubber meets the road however, how do we gauge the number of bats by the number of people who either see, finally detect or someone tells them
they have a bat problem?

My average clients have had bats at least a couple years or more based on evidence and their description as well. Many that called this year said "we've had them
for years now but think we may need to address the issue as it has...."

This of course wouldn't help with a yearly feel of "plenty of bats" or "we've got more bats than ever" as the people are completely random in who calls and why.

Yes most folks who notice a decent sized colony exiting the home or hear them in the attic are going to call that first time they notice it, however I and I'm sure I'm
not the only one, have had folks who didn't really notice till odor issues appeared or a friend mentioned the odor when visiting and they investigated.

With not only multiple species on the landscape, yes fewer tend to be in homes, you'd also have to factor in, how many big brown bats are counted, how many little
brown (also in WI), even just between those two and with random calls and not waiting each night and counting the number of bats when doing exclusion, how
would what we might see tell any story other than the clients I have this year have bats?

Some areas I work in nearly every structure has bats, literally, you can move 50' and see another colony sometimes the same species, sometimes another, but
I cannot translate that into "we have healthy populations of bats" as I can't know what that number truly is to be "healthy."

Many bats are either on or are getting put on lists for state threatened, sensitive, endangered, as well as federally being looked at due to WNS, however it isn't the only threat.

We all know in our realm of dealing with homeowners, structures and bats, there are those doing exclusion, then there are those who are still killing bats, using all kinds
of methods I won't repeat here for not wanting to provide any ideas to any newbie who stumbles on this thread.

However suffice to say, bats have enough threats in the world and though I'm sure we have in ways benefitted bats through our structures, they use our structures due to absence
of the natural structures that they evolved to utilize. They have adapted well, however we of course don't like sharing our homes with them for some obvious reasons, so when
a colony is called in, depending on who picks up the call and lands the client, that colony could be headed for death, or it could be excluded and left to look for another roost, next door, down the block, across town, etc...

That is another factor in the "we've got plenty" scenario when looking at the jobs we do.

If we are excluding bats for clients, we aren't killing them so they are moved to another area and if they are structure obligate bats like big browns, little browns or others in various regions, they can be seen by two operators in the same year (spring and fall exclusions).

****

I'll summarize though, I don't care if someone told me bats of some species are at a steady healthy level, I would never change my tactics from those I feel produce the most beneficial outcomes for client and bat alike.

To me it isn't a pick and choose and I find no reason to not always be looking for the options that satisfy that desire to do so.

Whats funny is most articles written in the general news and folks in most discussions are nearly always looking at "bats" as all the bats and not concerning their minds with how many species are in the area, how they differ in many ways including threats, numbers, etc....

Thats about the best way I can think of to say, we have no idea how many bats are on the landscape based on the random nature of folks who call us each year. If calls go up, it can be due to better advertising, a different referral source (I have a new guy that sent me 40 new bat clients this year, does that mean there are more bats? Nope, just have a new lead from someone who is in houses in the right areas every day), people are more educated on bats due to WNS and conservation groups pushing bats more in the media....

Ultimately trends can only be utilized if you have enough stable sites or control groups, if you look at the same nests every year for bald eagle nesting for example, you can definitely see the reproductive success over time and track it....

With multiple species of bats, random nature of calls, the only way people track how many bats is generally through winter counts that are done in known hibernacula or in caves/mines, etc... during various seasons.

On the landscape most research is more about presence/absence where they are looking for what species are utilizing this area at this time of year.... Very hard to do any population trends other than counting little bodies in caves each winter.

Anyway as a small operator who uses few sources of gaining bat jobs, when my jobs go up, it isn't related to bat numbers, it is related to folks noticing they have bats and finding me instead of another operator....

Without 100% of homeowners, operators and others reporting each year, species, number in colony, etc... no way to build anything more than a strong feeling in my little toe that bats are doing well.....



I do appreciate you always giving me time to sit and ponder some of these questions so that I can think through the best way to answer them....

Good practice for many audiences frankly....

Justin,have you considered writing a book on bats

How about elevation and latitudes,,,,

Last night the guy that I forward our midnight bat calls to took a date night with his wife....he's been running all night for a couple weeks now and she pretty much demanded it. I grabbed two calls before midnight, and turned the ringer down so I could sleep. At 7 AM this morning that line had 55 missed calls,all from different numbers, and seven voice mails, all but one from within a 5 mile radius. Almost every bat we see is a Big Brown now, but they seem to be doing well. ( He has been averaging 5-15 calls a night)

Throw Back, Wish I felt I had enough to add to the biology/behavior/research of bats to do so, maybe some day...

Vinke, Definitely, I'm sure you see that in (This word is unacceptable on Trapperman) and in the other states you work as well. The tricky part in states with more than a couple of primary house
species is tracking all the different possibilities for maternity season and other aspects as well including overwintering in structures.

Our mountain work was slowed this year due to weather and bats were of course late in showing up and late in maternity seasons due to the same conditions
that held us up... Delayed implantation/fertilization in bats is a key factor in allowing them to be more flexible in birth "dates" so to speak.

I've been in the same town and looked at two different colonies of big browns on the same date and had nursing young pups maybe 7-14 days old with females
while the other colony the pups were nearly indistinguishable save for a few visual cues.

We all know certain animals that drop young at the same time of year nearly like clockwork, but many including bats can have a pretty wide range even within
species and within a geographic area.

Lower altitudes for example here in our valleys we see pallid bats, lots of Mexican free-tailed bats and a couple of others that we don't find at all up in the mountains.

These valley bats can be very early, but they can also in the case of free-tailed bats be extremely late with young born in mid august here that we've documented.

Keeps you on your toes if you want to not trap bat pups in a clients house (for a variety of reasons...

***

Albert, Always good to hear from you and the big brown news in terms of species/call volume. Biologists in several states in the eastern US have been documenting
higher numbers of big browns since white-nose syndrome began decimating little browns. Various reason for the potential increase or theories would be a better statement.

Either way, they do seem to be holding their own and actually increasing despite being mildly susceptible to WNS themselves. Studies have found big browns that do use
caves during winter will be closer to the mouth of the cave, arouse more often from hibernation and of course have larger body size and therefore higher fat stores than little
browns who wake less, are in the colder deeper portions of the cave where the fungus really thrives and have less fat stores, all bad things that skew the death toll toward
them and others like the northern long-eared myotis.

To say it is a shame that little browns are facing local, regional extinction would be an understatement. Between cave counts, acoustic monitoring studies that are long term
projects and other counts, little browns and a few others are not being heard or seen except in small small numbers in very few places in the most hard hit.

As we all know too, the road to recovery of losing hundreds of thousands and millions of bats is much tougher when their birth rate is based on one pup per female bat per year
and often mortality higher than 50% from natural issues.

Recuperating those kind of losses is estimated to take a minimum of 30 years based on mathematical/biological models.

Hoping this winter doesn't bring WNS any closer to us here in NM, last year it moved closer and are now just waiting for the first western states to have a detection. No end in sight.

(Didn't mean to take this toward WNS, but a natural discussion for some of these aspects.)

Justin

How about embryonic diapause?

Vinke,

aH yes..........

I had embryonic diapause once. I took two aspirins and a six pack and it went away.