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Coyote Study #5012668
04/16/15 06:02 PM
04/16/15 06:02 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 77
Virginia
K
Kurt in Va Offline OP
trapper
Kurt in Va  Offline OP
trapper
K

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 77
Virginia

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5012792
04/16/15 07:19 PM
04/16/15 07:19 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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Good article Kurt; Thanks for posting. As someone who has lived four decades without any coyotes and the last three decades with

them running all over the place, I really can't think of a more worthless wild animal. I would love for someone to tell me one good

thing that a coyote does. And don't tell me they keep down the deer herd because we've got just as many whitetails as ever. They are

supposed to be pure death for feral cats but we get more feral cat trapping jobs every year. If we didn't have coyotes, we'd have

more foxes and that would be a good thing. Of course, being in Wisconsin, all we have to do is sit and wait for the wolves to come

down and kill the coyotes. That should be fun!

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5012846
04/16/15 07:51 PM
04/16/15 07:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,808
Lower Alabama (Daleville)
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LAtrapper Offline
"Professor"
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Lower Alabama (Daleville)


Note to self- Engage brain before opening mouth (or hitting the ENTER key/SUBMIT button).

Ron Fry

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5013409
04/17/15 02:31 AM
04/17/15 02:31 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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NM
Somewhere there exists a pack of coyotes sitting around staring up at the night sky saying to each other, what on earth is the benefit of that guy Winkelmann?

smile

Wink, I know you are plenty well traveled and knowledgeable to know that the answer to your question of worth is flawed from the moment it passes your lips, or rather the keystrokes made the post.

The reason being that everything that we exist with, from plants, to animals, to weather, to each other, can be looked at from a literally innumerable set of viewpoints.

Personally I could care less if they control deer, if they eat mice, or the canada goose or feral cats. Why? Because my home, life, etc... isn't based upon any of these aspects of "service" that could be provided by coyotes or other predators.

Your view is based on a variety of mental constructs that tell you that to you the coyote has no value, yet the fox does, again because of some intrinsic set of values or things you've learned that lead you to feeling this way.

I like this point that I hadn't thought of in years, which is what is the definition of a weed.

The first definition I think fits what you are saying about the coyote, and is as follows....

- a plant that is not valued where it is growing and is usually of vigorous growth; especially: one that tends to overgrow or choke out more desirable plants

Now to me growing up I knew you pulled weeds in the garden so they didn't rob from your veggies and also because it looked neat and tidy.

In college I was taught about things like purple loosestrife and the number of people who would pull over and pick this invasive plant or order it (when that was possible) to plant at their homes because it flowered beautifully, yet it was an invasive scourge in wetlands and refuges...

Again, a weed to some, a jewel to others.

Growing up on a farm, much like many of our clients, I saw certain wildlife as a nuisance or a threat to my rabbits, geese, ducks, chickens, sheep, etc..., however now lacking those animals or threats, I can see a coyote every day and not think anything but wheres my camera, same goes for when I leave to head up north for a bat job and as I'm packing up in the 3-4am range, and hear a pack cut loose howling behind my development I can simply stop and listen and enjoy the song.

Again, it is my perspective because honestly I have nothing to worry about, nothing to lose and I see the coyote for what it is, as the article finishes with that Kurt posted, a coyote is just a coyote, nothing more nothing less.

We often lament various wildlife and their value. If we hunt or trap or fish, the animal might nourish us both physically and mentally during the hunt.

I know that this is one of those statements I've heard from you personally multiple times when coyotes get discussed and of course I get that it is perspective based, but I guess I'd ask, what do you need or want in the animal for it to have value to you and your life?

I have my list of wildlife that really make my day, others that fall further down the list, but ultimately entered this field because of a deep love of wildlife and the outdoors that is only satiated by working with wildlife and even wildlife and people resolving conflicts.

Wildlife even invasive wildlife I can find endlessly interesting and I'm constantly in awe of the adaptations of so many species coyotes included.

How we each rank the things around us again is a personal view, but for me I don't need the coyote to provide a "use" to me other than just being a coyote.

I'll throw you one though in terms of a reason to respect coyotes. While the settlers and those who followed were successful at eradicating nearly every large north american predator, the coyote was never ever eradicated or extirpated in western states. They are the ultimate survivor and I don't believe I know more than a handful of trappers that don't consider them a pinnacle animal in terms of intelligence and wits.

All native wildlife are part of the ecology that they evolved with, predators, prey, plants, insects and everything in between including humans. Every day coyotes are performing the ecological role they were designed and adapted for.

Doesn't mean folks have to love them or even like them, but like the weed in the roadside ditch, to some a nasty thing to be sprayed and killed, to others just something that looks pretty or fills them with a positive feeling.

I know I got all soft and touchy here probably got half of you using words like bunny hugger and anti, but lets be honest here, without wildlife this forum wouldn't exist and all of us would be doing something else for a living. Our lives as wildlife control operators, wildlife biologists, hunters, trappers, fisherman, etc.... is made richer by wildlife and the coyote is a member of that group, like em or leave em...

Good article from the original post, haven't had a chance to read the others LA linked yet....

Best,

Justin

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5013416
04/17/15 04:14 AM
04/17/15 04:14 AM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 3,561
Northern MN
Dale Torma Offline
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Dale Torma  Offline
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Posts: 3,561
Northern MN
Sometimes I think the coyotes ARE about a valuable as crab grass. Can't get rid of either. They are so perfectly prepared for survival, and are a lesson in survival.
Around here they run in packs like the wolves, they are natures "Gangstsas" wolves are the ultimate gang though . The coyotes have to sneak through wolf territory or get torn to bits.

I think wolves have a value, but when there are too many, they become worthless pests. Same with the yotes. We can try to control the yotes, but the wolves are off limits and we can't to what we should.

Coyotes give us a mission. A tough mission, to control them .

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5013535
04/17/15 08:26 AM
04/17/15 08:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 7,236
West Michigan
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Getting There Offline
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Getting There  Offline
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West Michigan
Justin, good post. As a man kissed the cow, he said each man to his own taste. But when the guy next door dog takes a dump and I step in it, I don't like his dog. LOL


To Old
U.S. Army 60-63 SGT.
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5013647
04/17/15 09:39 AM
04/17/15 09:39 AM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 77
Virginia
K
Kurt in Va Offline OP
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Kurt in Va  Offline OP
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Virginia
This year at the farm we are getting every couple of week visits from a local pack. One let lose at 2am seemed like ten feet from the bedroom window. Other then that and there wanting to eat the chickens...... Came out the back door one nite and two took off like bats out of .............. they were digging where the dogs bury there bones sometimes. As long as they have fear of people... My 85 pound farm dog would like to explain his version of the the farm trespass rules to them, but I don't need the vet bills. If they become a problem I will do what rural folks have done for generations, take care of it.
Kurt

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5013779
04/17/15 11:30 AM
04/17/15 11:30 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 20,958
St. Louis Co, Mo
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BigBob Offline
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St. Louis Co, Mo
They eat a swell-of-a-lot of small mammals, ie: Mice, Voles,Squirrels, Marmots, Rabbits etc.


Every kid needs a Dog and a Curmudgeon.

Remember Bowe Bergdahl, the traitor.

Beware! Jill Pudlewski, Ron Oates and Keven Begesse are liars and thiefs!
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014359
04/17/15 06:10 PM
04/17/15 06:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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mequon, wisconsin
Those of you that read this might think I'm stretching the truth but everything on here is the Gospel as I know it. Before the late

sixties and late seventies, not only did we not have coyotes in southeast Wisconsin, we also did not have any of these: Beaver,

otter, flying squirrel, red squirrel, bald eagle, peregrine falcon, Canada goose, Cooper's hawk, egrets, house finch, sandhill crane,

wild turkey, sharp-shinned hawk, and turkey vultures. While we did have a very few whitetails, they were rare. I have had them run

into the side of my vehicle on three different occasions in the last twenty years. Now I enjoy each and every one of these new

species and I've dealt with most of them. I was the first one to catch a coyote in our area and I feel the same love for them as I

do a child molester. We didn't miss them when they weren't here and we sure wouldn't miss them if they all left.

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014384
04/17/15 06:29 PM
04/17/15 06:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
H
HD_Wildlife Offline
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HD_Wildlife  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
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NM
I think therapy is in order Paul! Lol!

Sounds like they plague your mind more than should be allowed! smile

I'd like to hear what makes the otter, raccoon, skunk and others something of value just for my own morbid curiousity...


Last edited by HD_Wildlife; 04/17/15 07:33 PM.
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014683
04/17/15 09:26 PM
04/17/15 09:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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Paul Winkelmann  Offline
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mequon, wisconsin
C'mon Justin, that answer is so simple it's pathetic. I have never had an otter, raccoon, skunk, or any other ADC animal kill a

family pet ( although I suppose it could happen ). And if it did happen I could take a cage and probably catch the offending animal.

The only way I'm going to catch a coyote is with a foothold or a cable restraint and that's too risky for my blood. The last family

of coyotes I dealt with lived in culverts on either side of a road in a subdivision. Mom, dad, and nine healthy pups. Can you imagine

the consequences of a 9 or 10 year old kid walking her new puppy along that road or an adult riding a bike with their dog on a leash?

Apparently our police department could. I shot the female, a friend of mine got the male, and another friend had an order for the

pups to be used for training coyote hounds in Montana. Now if I could ship all of our coyotes out west, I and all the people who

lost pets would be really happy.

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014810
04/17/15 10:17 PM
04/17/15 10:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 84
Northern Alabamie
S
Sosalty Offline
trapper
Sosalty  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 84
Northern Alabamie
Writer's credibility is dashed in his opening sentence. " The more coyotes you kill, the more you have."

Sure, animals generally have survival adaptations, but usually the parasites win, not survival of the fittest. Studies that I've read generally report that anywhere from 30% to 70% of coyotes have usually a multiple of 1 to 4 diseases or parasites. Wonder how many are completely healthy? Can't be more than a few %. Nature predator/prey relations tend to boom/crash. Man is the only predator that can apply science and increase both the numbers and health of populations over the long term.

And how many fawns and birthing doe become meals for opportunistic coyotes? I've read more than 2 studies indicating such are regular fare during the spring. The article fails to mention just how much meat is required for a coyote to thrive and gain 1 lb.
For large mouth bass, 6 to 10 lbs of blue gill, as well as small bait (rodents for 'yotes) are needed for a one pound gain. I've read some coyotes and bobcats enjoy a fawn weekly during the season.

For an optimal balance of coyotes and deer, and for pet predation to managed, often the coyote population needs to culled. Since they are so wily being unlikely to be driven to a point of being endangered, a constant effort at reducing their numbers is prerequisite to maximise wildlife numbers and health.

A small pack of coyotes just found the chicken I threw out this evening. My pet cats just came running back to me, good thing, they really like the feral cats I throw down there some days. You tube abounds with vid's of coyotes stealing off with fluffy from a suburban yard and the local coyotes hunt near my house regularly. I've lost pets and there's no doubt they'd scarf one up given the chance.

Last edited by Sosalty; 04/18/15 12:48 PM.

All animals increase at a geometrical ratio, and must be checked by destruction at some period of life. Charles Darwin; 'The Origin of Species' pg79
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014882
04/17/15 10:48 PM
04/17/15 10:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2015
Posts: 776
MN, USA
star flakes Offline
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star flakes  Offline
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Posts: 776
MN, USA
Last night I was awoke to a coyote at 2 AM. Deduction states it is a young male celebrating as the neighbor had shot a female coyote a few weeks back and the male vacated the township. This same male I saw a black, runny scat the day before on the road, having eaten some great ration of meat.
I can tell now when the pecking order arrives. Our state dumped mountain lions in a nearby Game Refuge to kill the deer, and those lions appeared here. There are now those wonderful wolves moving in. Each time one of the major killers appears, the coyotes disappear, and when the major killers move on their hunting routes, the fox appear again in absence of the coyotes.
In civilized cultures, humans by hunting, fishing and trapping occupy the best and most efficient humane management of prey species. America has become a nation of predators meant to destroy wildlife to manage it, as predators do not write letters to the governor complaining of horrid government officials sucking off tax money pretending to manage wildlife.
That coyote will soon be wearing a trap for jewelry as the righteous remedy for a killer. I have noticed that there is nothing but old raccoons now with all the game species disappearing here. Teddy Roosevelt, John Burroughs and Jim Owen all advocated exterminating large predators and that is what American wildlife policy was. For those who are not aware of the two following the founder of Yellowstone, Um John was the father of Yosemite and Uncle Jim was superintendent of the Grand Canyon. That is the historical record and reality, and all of this raising dangerous predators is propaganda introduced to condition the public that people have no place in nature, gun ownership or being martial.

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014884
04/17/15 10:48 PM
04/17/15 10:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
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NV, USA
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NV man Offline
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NV, USA
Well not exactly dashed, salty. There have been several studies showing that killing coyotes can increase the density. This done by removing coyotes with larger territories (often thought to be dominant pairs) and allowing those territories to become smaller, hence more coyotes. This may also be increased in urban areas where territory boundary markers are more available as well as food and other resources.

Good to see you back HD. A coyote is just a coyote.... that does what coyotes do.


"Our nation's health is dependent on local industry and commerce."
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014885
04/17/15 10:49 PM
04/17/15 10:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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mequon, wisconsin
The reason that coyote have so little effect on our deer herd is pretty easy to understand. We have a really big car kill in our

urban/suburban area. Those road kills are not picked up unless they are right in the middle of the city. The majority are dragged

into the brush to be feed on. It doesn't take a coyote with a college degree to figure out that a dead deer will probably not try to

kick his teeth out while he's pulling it down. ( And they taste just as good when they're tenderized by 18 wheeler ) I am not against

this practice. If the coyotes would just eat the road-kill and not the pets, I wouldn't have to argue with Justin. But that is fun!

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014902
04/17/15 10:54 PM
04/17/15 10:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
NV, USA
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NV, USA
Also, If I recall correctly to affect the population of coyotes for the following year somewhere upwards of 70% need to be killed. So Salty isn't exactly wrong with the assumption that the more you kill the less you have, and as has been pointed out I would agree that it is diseases and other factors that would be more a limiting factor on coyote populations than hunters and trappers, with some exceptions of course...

One good thing about a coyote is they are a fun hunting opportunity! And you can shoot as many as you can hit.


"Our nation's health is dependent on local industry and commerce."
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014915
04/17/15 11:05 PM
04/17/15 11:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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Paul Winkelmann  Offline
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mequon, wisconsin
star flakes, you were doing real good until you mentioned Teddy Roosevelt. Great man, great president, and he loved his elk. As a

matter of fact, he loved them to death. He killed more elk by over-protecting them than anyone else on earth.

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014933
04/17/15 11:15 PM
04/17/15 11:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
NV, USA
N
NV man Offline
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NV man  Offline
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NV, USA
Wow Paul,

Another nugget of wisdom!!! Ol Teddy is also continuing to affect wildlife to this day. The MBTA is more detrimental to bird management than many things.... A whole can of worms there, I'll try to leave closed.


"Our nation's health is dependent on local industry and commerce."
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014949
04/17/15 11:30 PM
04/17/15 11:30 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
trapper
Paul Winkelmann  Offline
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Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
NV, I was always taught that the Teddy R/elk mistake was a real learning experience for game management. Removing predators and not

allowing hunting is the best way to get just the opposite results of what you were looking for. The game managers in Wisconsin must

have taken this to heart. Just as we were getting enough elk of our own to hunt, they decided that we needed wolves. The wolves are

now doing a great job of hunting elk and I don't know if humans ever will. There are a lot of people in northern Wisconsin

who feel a lot more animosity towards the wolf than I do about coyotes. At least the coyotes arrived here of their own accord; not

shipped in by the DNR.

Last edited by Paul Winkelmann; 04/17/15 11:33 PM.
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5014979
04/17/15 11:51 PM
04/17/15 11:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 45,264
james bay frontierOnt.
B
Boco Online content
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Boco  Online Content
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Posts: 45,264
james bay frontierOnt.
If pets are getting eaten by coyotes,people must not be minding their pets very well.Likely the same people who let their pets at large to chase game and cause problems for trappers when they get caught in legally set traps.
The more of those "pets" they eat the better.


Forget that fear of gravity-get a little savagery in your life.
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5015058
04/18/15 03:21 AM
04/18/15 03:21 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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HD_Wildlife  Offline
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NM
Wink, I appreciate your honest response to my question, knowing you are a dad and a grandfather and someone who likely knows many in their community, I can understand that your view of the coyote is rooted in this potential for a human bite case or the typical missing family pet scenario.

As I mentioned, perspective right? This is your view and it is as important for me to understand your view as the lady raising sheep, the guy who makes his living on wildlife photography, etc.... Perspectives abound within our world and your view is yours and one that many share that I've run across in terms of worry over the potential and reality of coyotes.

I do agree with you as well that coyotes love a fresh dead deer as much or more as they do a live one that requires a pursuit, energy, calories, potential life ending injury to eyes, jaws, legs, teeth... The same goes for fall deer season, gut piles and other associated fallout from the big game season feeds plenty of predators including coyotes.

In terms of the family pet, I'll have to put up front on this before I go further that I've had dogs that I've loved far more than many people I've ever run across. Have had dogs and for that matter cats around my entire life (no cats in the last 15 years, wife has allergies).

Now, to discuss the family pet and injuries suffered by wildlife, I think we should agree that there are times wildlife cross our boundaries and there are times when we as owners allow our animals to be where they shouldn't be where not only wildlife conflicts can occur, but road hits by cars, being shot by a neighbor and a myriad of other nasty things.

I receive calls every year from folks who are concerned about coyotes eye balling their dog/cat/other, I also get calls where they have taken or injured a family companion animal.

What may shock you, or maybe not is that the leading dog killer in my area of the toy dog left in the yard isn't wiley coyote, it is a bird of prey. One year I had 5 calls for that to every one where a coyote was the suspected killer. In the cases of the birds, people actually saw them come down and grab them, no guessing as to what did it...

People somehow believe that dogs weighing less than 10 lbs can be left out in the backyard when their property is surrounded by quality wildlife habitat for everything from coyotes, to bobcats, rattlesnakes, hawks, owls, etc.... It isn't typically malice of course, it is blissful ignorance.

The same ignorance occurs when I hear people say, "I can't believe I just saw a raccoon cross my block wall" and they live 10' from the Rio Grande River... Or they are right in the mountains and are shocked that they saw a black bear, coyote, bobcat, mountain lion, etc....

I have empathy for the human loss emotion that occurs when someone loses their pet for any reason let alone seeing it ripped apart in the yard by a native predator. I do however clearly feel that husbandry is part of owning an animal, while folks will leave the 10lb toy dog, poodle, chihuahua, yorkie, etc... or cat in the yard, they would never lay a child of that size in the yard unattended.

May seem like a strange analogy, but when the caller wants blood and revenge for the loss I'm often surprised that they left it out for 4 hours from midnight until 4 am and wondered how on earth this could happen. Most as well already knew coyotes were there or other predators. A dog of those sizes or cat is on the menu of many animals if they desire to take after them.

We've been working on a slide for presentations we give on coyotes and other urban mesocarnivores to show the toy dog in a line up with other native prey items, prairie dogs, rabbits, etc... Heck a jackrabbit is bigger than half the dogs that I get called for being taken.

*******

I guess my point would be a bit like Boco's to an extent. I do not support leaving a dog that isn't large enough and strong enough to be able to defend itself outdoors and we all know what we all think of outdoor cats and how they impact everything around them. Again, I have empathy for the loss, but no way I'm blaming the coyote for a free lunch, it is simply doing what a coyote does, bobcats and others here can do the very same thing and if we move to areas with skunk and raccoon rabies there are those issues for folks who leave them to run and might not have even vaccinated...

One of the most vocal citizens wanting pretty much all coyotes eradicated in his little town always mentioned his dog had been attacked 4-5 times by coyotes, which made everyone feel for him and jump on his side. It was later revealed by the vet that was stitching up his dog every time that he allowed his dog to roam the streets and neighborhood in this busy town and he could have been killed or injured by a car, rattlesnake bite, and a dozen other wildlife species each day as this guy didn't actually care about the dog. Needless to say he stopped talking about his dog at meetings....

*******

To move on to the other aspects, we all know well that there have been people attacked and even cases of death. Tragedy comes in many forms, statistically speaking the coyote has to be out there with being hit by lightning and other rare events. I know more people who have had deer or moose or other ungulates come through the window and nearly kill someone or actually kill someone than I've ever heard of the same number of coyote human issues of this serious nature.

I can't imagine losing a family member, friend or child to something as extraordinary rare as a wildlife attack in the lower 48 states. The california cases and many others have proved out to show that people were feeding the coyotes causing a direct reason for the coyote to be pursuing people thinking food would be given.

When I worked in the OR office over in WA state they had a kid nipped on the side of his face and his back side while walking home with friends. Why? A neighbor had been feeding old ma coyote and when her pups were born they learned as well people were food, when the kid didn't produce any the coyote kept pushing trying to illicit the food coming forward....

Coyotes "fault" or idiot human behavior that caused a wildlife conflict and almost a human tragedy?

We all know the general public lack a massive massive knowledge about wildlife and the world around them. Everyone is ignorant about something as very few know everything though many claim to.

Part of our mission I believe is to be sure people get the straight scoop on wildlife as best we know it or see it.

******

The part of this thread talking about the article as false in regard to killing coyotes makes more coyotes is based on science and math that are based on reproduction and actual scenarios. Coyotes exhibit a biological trait known as compensatory reproduction. I can testify that I've known just a couple of coyote trappers in my lifetime and career that have all backed up the claims made by the publications that state that when you kill coyotes as NV man mentioned, they simply have larger litters and adjust numerous other variables to populate more of the landscape.

That doesn't mean people don't still try to keep them in check or go after them for livestock protection or just because they like hunting them, but the reality of making a dent in their population or putting them on a decline is something along the lines of removing 75% for 5 years straight from the area to start the decline. The exact statistic in published but is close to that somewhere, has been awhile since I've discussed that with anyone.

The truth about pubs talking about disease and parasites doesn't illuminate mortality from these issues in most cases. The only way researchers and biologists ever know what an animal dies of is if they run a necropsy with samples of blood and other tissues and due to cost and limited interest this is almost never done, as well you generally need a radio collared animal so you can be picking it up quickly once it dies or you won't have enough samples of any value to tell squat about it. Depending on time of year this can be within hours of death if you need good blood that produces serum when spun down for collection.

Carrying multiple bacteria, viruses, etc... doesn't mean you are going to die of them, even in humans you can be carrying things or have antibodies for them and not die of them if your immune system is solid and they aren't strong enough to take over your white blood cells and defenses.

Same goes for parasites. One project I was on was nothing but coyote work and most was doing full necropsy from stem to stern so to speak and I've seen the most beautiful looking (sorry wink! lol) coyotes who were fat and healthy looking that were fully loaded with tapeworms, roundworms and other parasites along with heavy loads of fleas, etc...

Most parasites aren't interested in killing the host unless it in their life cycle to do so. They may diminish the hosts health, but they want the host to keep eating and moving so they can keep leaching off the calories and food for themselves.

If we didn't vaccinate our dogs/cats, etc... for a number of things, they'd all likely carry similar loads, but we of course worm them, give them shots, etc... which prevents other issues and assures them a longer life, but in the wild life span in a hunted or open population subject to persecution isn't generally more than a range of 3-10 years with a ton of mortality in that first year or two when they are young and looking for a new place to live, lots of risk and little knowledge (not unlike teenagers and young adults).

*****

On the biological end about their meat needs and consumption, all predators in North America have been studied at one time or another to determine their relative success rates for chasing various prey. Being human I can instantly see the fat steak on the plate and all I need is the money to pay for it and its in my gut.

Predators like coyotes have to assess each hunting opportunity and how long it will take, how much energy will it cost, how might they be injured, etc... They do this as we all know in a rapid fashion before deciding to give chase or not.

It may sound stupid to some, but most know that mice, voles, lizards, snakes, insects, fruits and other easy to attain meals are much of the biomass that even a large coyote is going to be pulling in and using to sustain itself.

Chasing a full grown white-tailed deer happens, but the percentage of success can be extremely low unless you are in northern winter deer yard with paralyzing snowfall depths that give the coyote the advantage.

We've all seen the documentaries on African wildlife that show the cheetah ripping along, but they always show some fails. Statistically many predators have as little as 15-30% capture success when trying to bring down large game, versus waiting to pounce on the copious amounts of small protein in the fields...

*******

Mesocarnivore release theory is another aspect of coyote biology. I don't think any trappers will argue this point since I've heard about the effects of coyote on fox populations in the midwest and east for over a decade as they expanded and filled in.

Top dog takes out smaller dog or forces it into niches. What removes or keeps the coyote in check? Other than mange and humans, not much, unless you are in a state with larger carnivores, wolves, lion, bear, etc...

One california study showed something like 75% of the grey fox mortality was from coyote and areas in the west with threatened or sensitive swift or kit fox have removed coyote to try to reduce that predation.

Coyotes again are just part of the natural ecology of the areas they live in. They must feed within the cycle of prey items and food items available, they must face the pressures placed upon them for space by other members of their own and by us, but ultimately they are so adaptable and intelligent that they beat the odds living in places most would never consider logical.

******

Every animal has a behavior and biology that can be interpreted a variety of ways, I've trapped coyotes, followed coyotes with radio collars, necropsied sheep killed by coyotes, worked with urban coyote issues, etc... and I'll never not enjoy the sight or sound of one or more.

Again, my perspective ultimately, I have nothing of my own to lose to them, so I suppose I can feel like the nature photographer or the documentarian who has gotten to follow this animal, learn from it, understand it and respect it for what it is.

*******

Another thought to leave you with....

Man's best friend is one of the leading causes of injury and far far surpasses the coyote or any other wildlife for causing us harm.

Check out a site called dogbites.org and then think about all the dogs we all encounter and that our kids, and others encounter on a daily basis.

I knew where every psycho dog lived growing up when I would walk to friends houses miles away in the country after school or during the summer.

I can't imagine worrying over the coyote potential when dogs are literally everywhere and have the largest amount of opportunity and a proven track
record.

According to that site and a study published there about 1,000 cases a day require medical treatment due to injuries suffered from dogs in the United States.

"Chew" on that.... smile

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5015389
04/18/15 10:53 AM
04/18/15 10:53 AM
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mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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Paul Winkelmann  Offline
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Good post Justin. Just a few things; those beautiful looking coyotes that you dealt with had to be from Montana, Wyoming, or

someplace like that. Our coyotes consistently take last place in the annual canine beauty contest. While I understand yours and

Boco's thinking on the pets being allowed to run loose, this is not the case in our city. ( At least not any of the owners I talked

to and two of them are regular customers ) One dog was killed right in front of the owner and one was bitten while on a leash. My

daughters have three small dogs and we watch them very closely whenever they're out of the house. I like those dogs but I would never

own one. If you're going to own a dog the size of a ferret, get a ferret. I do know about the raptor and small dog problem. I told

the neighbor that his dog got hit by a hawk but he probably still thinks it was a coyote. And I also know all about man's best

friend. My son P.J. must smell like Purina. He could get attacked by a stuffed dog. I, on the other hand, stand a better chance of

getting licked to death. Here's another thing I've noticed; if you pick up a baby coyote it's just like picking up a puppy. No

growling or spitting and they seem perfectly relaxed in your warm hands. Now try the same thing with a fox pup ( but remember to

bring bandages )

Re: Coyote Study [Re: NV man] #5015506
04/18/15 01:10 PM
04/18/15 01:10 PM
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Northern Alabamie
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Sosalty Offline
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Northern Alabamie
My educated presumption is that coyotes are generally overpopulated and that killing them improve the ecosystem, numbers and health. Your example of a dominant pair getting eradicated allowing less dominant individuals to occupy, supports that. No doubt at times killing 2 or 4 will result in 3 or 6 moving in. Just the same, sometimes killing 2 or 4 leaving the zone unoccupied for 6 months or 2 yearling pups taking the slot.

There are many exceptions, but govt and enviromentals rarely get it right. If you live in a state such as CA, the rule with few exceptions, is that predators are parasite and disease ridden. While I can see whitetails getting hunted down, that seldom happens with coyotes. With some studies indicating 30% with parvo before age 5, 40% with heartworms, 50% with mange, and 70% infested with ticks (I don't recall the specifics, just impressed with so many in poor health), and then take into account starvation, injuries, and fighting over territory. Most wild animals live more than twice as long in captivity. One can assess that non hunted/trapped/managed populations are in a natural state of stress to the point that letting nature take it's course can be cruel, even immoral.

Yes, studies that find the exceptions supporting certain narratives get passed around more than they merit.

Last edited by Sosalty; 04/18/15 01:43 PM.

All animals increase at a geometrical ratio, and must be checked by destruction at some period of life. Charles Darwin; 'The Origin of Species' pg79
Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5015530
04/18/15 01:41 PM
04/18/15 01:41 PM
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Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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NM
Mange is by far the worst thing I've seen that is a natural process of population control. With more than 60+ coyotes radio collared at any one time I recall how many we'd eventually find looking worse than death.

An interesting point though is that they were radio collared in high persecution areas with tons of hunting, trapping and hounding.

Highest mortality we documented was through legal harvest with mange running close second.

All species have he greatest losses in newly born and young of the year. Underdeveloped immune system and variables that impact survival are hardest on anything including humans at that age and then again at the far end of the age spectrum when again our systems are weaker and prone to infection...

Working in disease for my entire career usually publications of diseases and infections and parasites are "survey" versus mortality." stats. In other words that an animal was exposed or a carrier versus a death by that parasite, infection, etc....

Apples and oranges in terms of useful on how or why they die.

A solid mortality study has to include tracking the organism from cradle to the grave.

In humans and domestic livestock and pets we get this kind of tracking through doctor and vet records.

With wildlife what killed it is only known through necropsy and testing.

It's a confounding but interesting field.

(Wink those were MI coyotes! Lol)

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5015559
04/18/15 02:13 PM
04/18/15 02:13 PM
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California
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Throw Back Offline
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Throw Back  Offline
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California
Coyotes as bad as child molesters?

Kid gets a pet cat eaten vs unspeakable acts.

Re: Coyote Study [Re: Kurt in Va] #5015594
04/18/15 02:43 PM
04/18/15 02:43 PM
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mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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Paul Winkelmann  Offline
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Throw Back, I admit that I don't know any child molesters personally so I may be unfairly giving them a bad name.

Justin, have you seen a prime Montana coyote? Now that's a beautiful canine. A friend of ours has a Montana coyote coat. It's so white it looks like ermine. Of course after reading your post I'll probably start itching the next time I see it.

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