Does everyone who skunk and raccoon trap get the shots?

Kurt Temple

Nope. I'd say 50/50. Personal choice. I planned to many years ago, but never did.

I don't understand to point in getting them!
Someone care to explain? Just shots for no reason
If you don't get bit,?

I did many moons ago. I'm sure by now they are pretty much useless but who knows? maybe all I need is a booster. We have no raccoon

rabies in Wisconsin and if a skunk or bat ever bites me I'll have to pay $4000.00 like my son did. ( His health insurance paid $1500

and Christian/Baker paid the balance )

Kasey, it's pre-exposure shots. So if you get bit, you only need a booster.
Kind of like a pet, so you don't have to be quarantined for six months if your exposed. ;o)

I've had the pre-exposure shots. Supposedly, if you're bit by a rabid animal you only need a one shot booster rather than the $4000 post exposure series.

Where did you get your shots and how much did they cost?
I have spoke to my local health dept. and they have no idea
what I am talking about.

I got mine, and get a "Titer" test every yr to check for it's retained effectiveness. Not needed a booster yet.

FWIW: I got mine at the VA FREE, might have a small co-pay and have to argue a bit, and/or see the Vet Rep or Patient Advocate. Just tell them you handle wild animals and "NEED" them.

opie28 I got mine through the humane society and they were extremely reasonable. Call you local branch and they will almost certainly

have the info you need. Nobody is more at risk than humane society workers.

I had mine done at my primary care doctors office years ago ..and have had several boosters in the emergency room therafter..when I had my initial vaccines..it was a little over 900 bucks.. and they had to order them...On the other hand my Girlfriend and partner had hers prescribed at her primary care doctor..and ordered them at Wamart for 300 dollars less, then had her doctor administer the shots..and we both have titer test...occasionaly to make sure we are still protected

Joe, my shot was about $30 through the humane society. I mentioned this at a seminar in Vegas and just about everyone called me a

liar because the serum alone was a lot more costly than that. The only thing I can figure is that the city was subsidizing the humane

society and once the vial is open they have to either use it up or throw it out. I guess you don't mind being called a liar when you

save a bundle of money.

I checked two years ago at the county health dept. It was 600.00 and three shots so many days apart, if you missed one or were off by a day it would not take and not be protection. Checked other doctors office and none would do it.

Kurt Temple

Wow! 30 bucks Paul... that's real cheap....My Girlfriend could have gotten them cheaper through the vetarnarian she works for part time.......but I was like..your not a dog..go to your doctor..LOL .. Kurt...3 shots..i believe after the first one it's 7 days apart for the next 2

Yep, that's the right. 1st day, 7thday, 14th day.

I got mine thru the local humane society. I don't remember what they cost. They were vacinating all the employees and I was on the board so we ordered them for anyone who wanted them and the receiver paid the cost. I would contact them and they may do the same.

When I did get my first series...my Insurance DID cover them , my doctor labeled them as a occupational hazard or something to that effect..can't remember precisely..but Ya!

I got the shots about five years ago and the price was around $800. Insurance covered most of it because it is considered a vaccination. It took a while for them to pay though because they had never heard of it before.

Found out today it costs 750.00 at health dept. My insurance will cover it.

A place i never thought of for the pre exposure series is a traveling clinic.

They give shots to folks mostly whI are heading overseas or somewhere with a variety of things like rabies.
A colleague mentioned them being $250.00 at the one here.

*******

To the idea of pre vs post.

Pre protects you in theory by adding antibodies (your titer), without this you have nothing to protect you from an accidental exposure.

We all know the bite is the clear winner for exposing you.

How many have cracked, dry hands right now? Any cuts?

Now add a bit of saliva from an animal you just handled and you have that situation where the pre exposure was a smart gamble.

They give post exposure regardless because why risk the pre not protecting you when we are talking fatal illness.

Liability drives post exposure when folks already have pre exposure and get bitten.

If you work with rabies vectors regardless of your precautions or tactics to prevent exposure in my opinion you should have pre exposure series.

Just my .02,

Justin

I want to get them. Tryin but no one seems to know

The main reason I got the pre-exposure was that it is possible to get exposed without being bitten and not know it. Mine was $900 but insurance paid for most of it...I like the peace of mind. I can't remember the name of the company but it was an office near ATL airport that specialized in various vaccinations for people that travel out of the country.

$300 down here...cheap insurance.

Got mine in 95 or 96 they said I would need a booster every 3 to 5 years.have had titer checked every few years as of 2 years ago still didn't need a booster.Almost 20 years without a booster their not putting any more of that in me.i have talked to a few others that have gone a long time without a booster all from the same time period.

I'm pretty sure that it also protects family, friends, and customers if you bite them.

Rabies has been shown to be an airborn virus, per the NTA Trapping Manual, as in caving or crawling around in an attic with bat's.

Bob is right about the NTA manual but if I remember correctly rabies has never been proven to be airborne. Can you imagine the number

of cases if it were?

Several cavers died from Rabies in at least 2 separate incidents without having been bitten. FWIW. Is it worth taking a chance?
Also as it's highly recommended that post exposure shot's be given if a bat is found in the house where people have been sleeping, is this from fear of not knowing if you've been bitten or just breathing the air?

I know about one incident where several cavers died because the cave held "ten of millions of infected bats". Their coughing and

spitting was so intense that the damp air of the cave was infected. And no, it's not worth taking a chance. I can't for the life of

me understand why any caver would not have the vaccinations. Their chance of getting bit is probably higher than anyone's.

Oh lord we'd all long since been dead if rabies were airborne!

A very sane topic has now gone insane.

How many cavers go in caves every year loaded with bats? How many nwcos and homeowners crawl into crawl spaces laced with skunks?

If you've been bitten by a bat and didn't notice it you'd better get your to a neurologist folks! Bat bites are sharp and painful.

This topic was hashed out months ago if memory serves me. This has gone from why get pre exposure to an excerpt from the brad pit movie about rabid zombies!

Yikes!

*******

Think about the truth about rabies versus reality of how we live with all of these vector species...

Think!!!


Better be wearing a respirator for every mammalian rabies vector you work with folks...

Your all doing that right?

There are plenty of articles of people being infected from airborne rabies from spalunkers in caves to laboratory workers...I was always taught that once the rabie virus hit the air (oxygen)it would be dead shortly after ....I don't know what to think anymore after reading these articles..

Heat kills rabies. Rabies is not a very hardy organism compared to other things like Tb.

I've been to CDC for rabies training. No one is wearing a respirator for this kind of work.

Also worked as part of national rabies projects again, gloves are the required ppe. No respirator.

Quite seriously we would all be dead or fighting for our lives if airborne rabies was occurring outside of crazy circumstances.

You'd never hear about the flu or chicken pox or measles or even ebola.

I understand that the Rabies Virus will die after a few minutes in sunlight, and that it's not recommended to get too close to the opening of a Skunk/Raccoon den because of the danger of inhaling the Virus. Anybody have thoughts on this?

BigBob, sunlight and temp extreme both kill it, with roadkill surveillance we had to acquire a brain sample in a very short period when temps are over a certain level. Rabies doesn't like it outside of that small zone.

Again with the den sites, how many guys would be dead from coon hunting and den trees and from crawling into crawl spaces and attics?

Forget our industry how about plumbers, hvac and so many other trades who have to crawl into these areas that have often live animals in them without knowing? Do you see folks dying on the news of rabies from
this?

This would be major headlines, seriously, I'm not trying to make fun of it, just sit and think, let alone how many homeowners who have older homes and the air from the crawlspace and attic are part of the air in the home.

So many would be dead if this was the case.

With cavers in the earlier posts, how many public lands caves would be open to public use by the cave community and the general public if airborne rabies was killing cavers?

No public cave would be open outside of research with a permit and ppe including respirators if this was common.

Doesn't this make sense to anyone?

I know a ton of folks in the NSS and they all cave without masks, to an earlier point, they also do not touch or mess with bats, if they belong to caving communities they are taught and educate others to not harm or bother
bats and other fauna of the cave and they protect cave ecosystems through their work and groups.

How about we just talk about rabies for what it is to NWCO's, which is about being bitten, being drooled on, etc...

Or if you really want the answers and don't believe me, give a holler to CDC and tell them you believe rabies is airborne in skunk and raccoon dens and caves and get the straight scoop and report back here with quotes.

Good points HD

Well, now you guys did it and got Justin all fired up. lol

While I've heard theories that rabies is spread by air, between skunks in the dens, there are so few cases of human rabies in the US and none of them seem to be associated with skunk and raccoon dens that it's not something I worry about.

I got the shots because I handle the animals. When all was said and done, I think I paid $175 for the shots. That's cheap peace of mind.

If I were to get bit or end up handling an animal that I thought might be rabid I would certainly head to the doctor.

With that being said, I've stuck my face in enough skunk dens to know that it's not the healthiest of air and I really try to avoid such behavior. I expect there's a lot more to worry about than rabies.

SGS,

Sometimes I just can't help myself... What can I say I'm passionate about the field.



I think you are right on in getting the shots for the what if...

I also have known many folks who have been bitten and knew it by a variety of potential vectors and never sought treatment.

At least with the pre shots you have some buffer.

Joe (swampdonkey) I know I saw a post this morning and read it but its gone, anyway, I was going to google up to see what pops out of the internet.

However I happened to already be corresponding with an authority on another subject and so I threw this question over to him about aersolized rabies
and the cases with the two cavers way back when.

The response was this:

********

Other than a lab mishap in New York, there is no proven aerosol transmission of rabies virus. The only thing that some people cling to are some papers describing two deaths in the 1950’s of bat biologists in a densely populated cave. What people arguing for aerosol transmission leave out is that these two biologists banded more than 10,000 bats in the year prior to their death. Exposures occurring during these activities are much more believable compared to aerosol theory.

********

I won't quote who said this, but suffice to say if you know me I don't have a reason to lie that this person comes from an authoritative ability on this subject, in our country there is none higher.

I had always imagined though I didn't know the background that those two biologists (cavers) were actually interacting with bats, but this is confirmation of that. Even with a very low rabies percentage
in wild bat populations, handle 10,000 and I'm betting you are stacking the odds against yourself.

Add in that we are talking 1950's, which wasn't at the level of our knowledge of disease transmission, ppe, etc...

Anyway, thought folks would appreciate the concise answer that was provided to me.

Best,

Justin

Jusitn ...Thanks...I deleted it because I didn't want it to seem like I was trying to bug you....That wasn't the case...Thanks again...
But handling 10,000 bats a whole year earlier , certainly wouldn't have anything to do with their deaths a year later...would the virus lay dormant in 2 people like that ?

Either way....Just sayin...im curious..

Would you guys please cut it out. I'm trying to write a column on rabies and every time one of you posts, I have to go back and

change it. It would be easier to write about a cure for Alzheimer's. ( Which I'm getting from writing this column )

Hey Joe, Not bugging me, in actuality some of these threads ultimately just make me better at discussing with the public (clients, etc...) because I've just brushed up on the latest and greatest in literature on various subjects or contacted some folks who should be the authority on the subject.

In terms of your question which is very logical about why would 10,000 times of handling to band bats over the year prior to the rabies virus in those two gentleman, the answer would lie
in the published periods by WHO (World Health Organization) and CDC (Centers For Disease Control), which both suggest that the virus in humans can show itself anywhere from days after a bite (exposure) up to a year after the event.

Since most people die of rabies in countries like Africa where dog rabies is still prevalent (something that used to be our issue here before vaccination programs) there aren't really that many cases here in the states that they can use as reference cases from known exposure to known death.

If you look at the published literature of X number of deaths per year here in the states over the last several decades it points to folks who often didn't think contact with either a bat or other mammalian vector species (raccoon, skunk, fox) was a cause for concern or the need for shots. This might surprise some of us, but I bet it doesn't as I know too many folks who have been bitten and never thought twice about not ringing up the doc for any shots or treatment.

CDC displays the incubation period after an exposure "may vary from a few days to several years, but is typically 1 to 3 months.

What we of course including myself would be thinking is mostly related to when we are exposed to when we make the call for the shots we know should be very expeditious.

This is based in the fact that outside of those few cases of folks known to have "survived" through due to various treatment methods, once you show clinical signs the disease is considered fatal and therefore the shots no longer do you any good (not that docs won't still try to save you through one of a couple protocols).

Tracking back to the two guys back in the 1953 time, most people didn't know what they know now.

In looking for some info to share here I saw a scientific survey of cavers and this was only in 2000 approximately that shared that more than 26% of those surveyed didn't even believe a bite from a bat was something that required any treatment.

I was surprised by this, but then I'm a wildlife biologist, I grew up hunting, fishing, trapping and hearing about things like rabies, distemper, etc... from birth. Many folks venture into wild situations with wildlife who have no clue about the realities.

**

My wife and I both have grown a great fondness for bats and bat conservation, however I never ever joke with the public about rabies, if they had a situation that is considered an exposure by my DOH, then I instruct to contact those folks to have the bat tested and to proceed with their medical treatment.

We spend lots of our time and money providing talks to kids to adults and a big part of that outreach is telling them DO NOT TOUCH WILDLIFE and if you have to ALWAYS USE A BARRIER.

Okay Wink, I'm pretty well done with this topic, though I do think everyone in our industry should understand more about every disease and parasite, etc... that we work with or that might impact a client. The more we know, the better we are at telling people a balanced truth about things and not providing them more fear for situations that don't merit it.

**

I'd encourage everyone interested in rabies, pre exposure, post exposure, and pathology of the virus to read the CDC pages. These people are our highest level of knowledge and employ doctors who have a sole purpose in each of these various virus, bacteria, etc... I tell clients who want more info the same, rely on good solid information from a trusted source.

If you are so inclined and want your own texts, look on amazon for two texts for mammals, one is the infectious diseases of north american mammals and the other is the parasitic version of the same. Both have a wealth of things most of us will never see happen in them, but they are excellent in your hand books.

Also, my apologies, not for being passionate about the issue, but if I offended anyone, I just sometimes struggle greatly with some of these topics, I hope that the rest of the thread shows that I'm all about learning from and sharing within my industry and among my colleagues on here and elsewhere.

Best,

Justin

Excellent job on the info Justin...I'm sure it educated a few of us ...Personally, it's appreciated by me ! Thanks!!!

Thanks Joe!

Got my first today, $800 for all three

Does the $800 come out of your pocket?

Yes. Too bad there is no nwcoa discount for vaccinated members

I guess I would wait until I needed the post exposure then. Did they tell you that if you got badly bit by a rabies carrier that you

would need further shots, because that's what they told me. Yeah, it costs 5 times as much but at least it's all paid for by insurance.