Anyone have opinions on wintertime bat exclusions? In the past I have performed exclusion work through the winter as the weather allows, leaving the tubes on until spring in case any bats are dormant inside. Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this subject and any potential negative outcomes you may have experienced?

Oh boy this should be good. If you are leaving the excluders up till you know the weather is warm then there should not be a problem. now if you don't let the one or 2 in there out, maybe a problem. Then again roofers and siders, never stop putting roofs and soffits in around me and the tell me they can bat proof a house. In my area only the big browns winter over, and only a few per house. well that is all I have seen in all these years. so if the weather gets warm for a day or 2, like for me today and tomorrow, it will be close to 60 with lows mid 40's, my bats will be seen tonight when I am checking or tending traps. For the past 4 days it didn't get above 39 with lows at 20, the bats did not fly. Next I was told by a bat expert that bats only have one den to which I replied BS! well off to set more traps and a deer stand.

West,

I believe Ron Scheller has the best opinion on this based on his long term experience with bats and winter exclusions.

He is on here from time to time, and hopefully will comment.

The gist would be, if bats are inside still when you reach the house to do the tubing or other one way devices. They
will only have one option if they leave during a warm spell when they become a bit active during winter.

This during the warmer part of the year is of course natural for our exclusions however during winter, finding another roost
that will suit them to allow them to continue using the structure for overwintering could or more likely would result in them
not finding that and dying due to exposure.

Again, I believe Ron has the best thoughts on this and since you are in NY (my homeland) while he's in Illinois, I think you'll
find his comments most pertinent.

We did discuss this a bit on a thread not long ago if you search the archives, think only a month or so back now maybe....

It is generally accepted that while big brown bats do use caves for hibernation, they are more than able to use homes with
the right insulation and microclimate, making this a potentially deadly issue for winter exclusions.

I believe Ron stated he currently does the 99% seal up if it is too late in the fall/early winter and comes back in spring to do
the final deal with one ways and then sealing those last entry points.

By doing this method you allow for the potential of any bats emerging during winter warm ups to leave and return without
being locked out.

_____

I now live in NM and even in the mountains I had big browns that were not gone as of our first snow, these were some I could
see in checks in log cabins looking back at me.

My take home from seeing this combined with what I know from others with decade plus experience is what aren't you seeing down
in the wall void or behind insulation?

For me its not worth the risk that I might trap bats in or out, so I am following Ron's lead on this methodology.

Hope he chimes in, or that you find the thread, he did comment recently on this topic.

My goal as a bat excluder is to resolve my clients issues while not harming bats, so this one is a no brainer and you can still book
and retain the client by doing it this way, as you will have started work and taken a deposit to do the pre-winter work and then come
back in the spring and finish and get that last check for the completion.

Hope that helps,

It is a topic that deserves more debate and discussion and it should be based on sound thoughts versus any knee jerk reactions.
Unfortunately most of the discussion on this point in the rest of the world often comes from southern state folks who are interested
in bat conservation, while in reality this is an issue folks pushing the issue have caused some folks to be punchy thinking someone
down south is going to help make policy that isn't based on northern states biology and behavior in bats.

My personal hope from a bat conservationist and wildlife excluder standpoint is that we can self police and make good decisions
based on common knowledge that benefits our clients and bats.

Best,

Justin

To Jonesie's point, again it depends on your weather, but if you are standing in the snow contemplating bat exclusion with one ways I'd err on the side
of caution.

In terms of how many roosts, most species are known to have multiple roosts during the active season and yes can switch caves and other hibernacula if they are close enough during winter. Houses however in winter I would not agree that there is high likelihood that they will find another suitable house with the same setup for overwintering and they have little time if the temp goes like it does here from 50+ to 18-25 overnight....

Again decide which method to choose based on the outcome you'd like to achieve I guess. My opinion would be why not be cautious?

Well I may not be as well known or respected, But I did start doing this crap in 1979. And there was no sheepskin boys that could tell me how to do bats!!!!! I had to learn the old fashion way! And that was go do it. Every bat job we went to 3 nights in a row counting and watching. we would make mistakes and a bunch I did. Yet I learn from those mistakes. Back in the early 80's No one knew about nursing colonies or the time frames, But I found out real quick about them!!!!!! I wondered why in the month of May bats left the roost and was gone for hours yet in June they came back with in a hour and tried to get in the holes I just sealed? Land right on me!!! Only to open the hole to let females back in when I realized. We learned night work was not the best, too many bats got blocked up. we learned that a large area excluder like a net took longer for the bats to get out because of all the air flow rather than a single hole excluder where the airflow was at one spot. That it was better to put in many excluders rather than just a few and cause a traffic jam, causing the bats to start going into the living space rather than wait their turn out the hole. I was one of the first to say back in 87/88 that I thought there was such a thing as a bachelor colony. How did I figure that out without a book? Simple, In June and early July the colonies that had young you could set you clicker and time watch to the structure, almost the same number or bats and time frames for 3 nights in a row, Some structures, not as many, would have 20 the first night, 40 the 2nd and 10 the 3nd in those same months! And I would not be able to find young. By the way those same fluctuating numbers are seen in my area in the same dens where in July the numbers are consistent, then the customer cancels the job because mid August the 70 bats are gone. by the way I can tell when the young are being born also, How? In May those same nursing dens will have fluctuating numbers, the same as late summer, then the last week of May for my area the numbers become consistent. I am only speaking for my area that I work. I don't know other area patterns. in those early days I would ask a biologist about bats, they would say I don't know jonesie you know more about bats than I do. and the one's that thought they knew would tell me all bats go to the caves in Oct they can not survive in a home in the winter. yet I still got calls all winter?????????? when houses are right next to each other for mile as they are here in NJ. if a bat leaves the one house then there are 20 more that that bat most likely spent time in during at some other time. I just was reading a paper from some school that said big browns are known for their heartiness to survive. Hummm

I am on my second response, my first one I was really, well lets say not as polite as I am trying to be at this point LOL I hit the send button, and GOD saw fit to send it somewhere else, where? I do not know LOL so I guess he was telling me to rewrite LOL

In all reality the gentlemen from NY state can put up all the excluders he wants. his weather up there is going to be cold and colder!!!!!! when he does get a day or 2 that is warm it will not be enough to bring the bats out of sleep. so his bats won't even think of leaving unless he has some time of warmer temps. In my area my bats will move 45 or higher but with that being said if the temps have been below the 40 degrees mark for any amount of time the bats will take longer to wake up or if they do they go into the living space.

HD you most likely have never seen me be critical of any one or at least not to often, But your roofer statement was the most asinine statement I have heard in a while. One min You are saying protect the bats to a fellow wildlife guy, and on the other hand say the roofers are not our business! so which is do we protect the bats or not? we all know that homeowners and construction is far harder on the bats than any one wildlife guy sealing a house that may have a bat in it!

I want to say right NOW!!!! so every one reading this knows I do not condone doing a exclusion in the winter on a colony of bats that simple!!!!! But If I go out and do a inspection because a bat was down in the living space chasing the customer around the house (Maybe some will think I don't know how to do a inspection for bats the right way! And to that, I say, I don't care what you think LOL)and find no sign of bats living in that structure at that time, I am going to do the bat job as long as I don't fall off the roof and if I do I do want snow on the ground and a lot of it to break my fall!!!!

Bats alive to me are money in the bank for next season!!!!! I don't want any bats killed, any time!!! Bats are the 3nd in line of my job types 1 Squirrel 2nd Groundhogs and 3nd Bats, and I make more per bat job than any other job, But I did not get into this work in 1979 to save animals, my job is to protect the customer and their property, within the laws.

by the way it seems that the wildlife control field is doing a better job at saving the bats than the experts are at saving the little brown.

ok let me have

Sealant won't cure properly in the cold. I would hate to re do work come springtime. Bat work in the northern states is seasonal.
www.guaranteedbatremoval.com

I appreciate everyones responses! I have seen bats periodically come out of houses even last week when the temps are in the 40s-50s. I do wait for days when the the temperatures are warm enough for sealants to cure (and not have ice and snow on the roofs!). I would much rather line people up for spring but I typically get the response of if your not going to come solve my problem now I am going to get someone else.

Very good post Mr Ron Jones.

Jonesie,

I read your post thoroughly and I want you to understand something. My statement about the construction industry is not based on a lack of caring or concern, it is based on no ability to impact those folks with this forum.

I was stating my only concern on this forum is how I may impact another NWCO in my industry.

I agree wholeheartedly that homeowners left to their own devices and roofers and suffers will cause harm to many bats.

To the rest I guess in the end you mentioned you don't do bat exclusion in winter unless people get one in the living quarters.

When I have these I seal the interior living space and setup the exterior for spring.

......

On the end of the rest of the post about the history when I mentioned Ron I certainly wasn't stating your points aren't valid. I literally was writing my post without seeing yours and posted and realized you had already.

So it was never meant to suggest you didn't have a valid point.

I appreciate what most share.

As a wildlife biologist I do get sick of folks hammering on what he book learned biologist or researcher thinks. I respect trappers, hunters and fellow nwcos who literally learned on the job.

I respect what you learned over the decades and wouldn't think you'd need to post that those reading books or going to school somehow are not as well informed. Like anything it depends on the individual. I've seen ignorant college grads and I've certainly seen ignorant folks in this field who didn't attend or study.

There is no generalization here. How about we just share our experience on bats or whatever species or topic and avoid putting anyone down within the industry.

Again I've always liked your posts, I'll edit my old post to remove the construction issue in case anyone else isn't clear on what I was saying and I hope you can understand my feelings about folks who talk about book learnin and college like it's a bad word.

I'd like to think this thread is worth saving....

Justin

I kind of liked Jonesie's post too. Especially the part about protecting the customer. I figure when God is done sending Jonesie's

E-mails to wherever, He can protect the bats.

P.S. We were told that some of the flowering trees in Hawaii were pollinated by bats.

For clarity....

I've never had to cause harm to bats to resolve my clients issue.

Their safety and mental well being is always at the front of my inspection and
conversation.

Nearly every client is manic and scared about what bats mean to them and their family.

If I didn't spend time discussing bats and realities versus myths I'm sure I could kill all
of the bats and get paid by just offering to reinforce their fear or myth based beliefs.

I've yet to have even the greatest bat hating client not allow me to do it right so that they were protected and
the bats were conserved.

Just my experience...

*****

I wanted to add just the reasons we often hear for winter bats...

1) Folks hear noises under the in the walls or above the ceiling and think mice... NWCO finds bats. Does this
situation result in homeowner safety issues generally?

2) Bat in the house flying around - this one is obviously more directly related to the clients feeling and ability
to be safe in the home with a wildlife and in this case one they all know is a rabies vector.

3) Folks who knew they had bats, called but they either called to late in the year (toward winter) or were booked
toward the later season due to scheduling.

This to me is the topic more related to what the original poster was suggesting.

The weather is a fickle thing as wildlife can be, we all know that, while in one guys winter area conditions might
open up movement often during winter months, in others the small warm ups are harder to track or confirm and
how they cause bats to move and leave or not as well.

Again, I guess I'll err on the side of caution and if I get inside the house bat calls in my area these are always going
to result in interior seal outs until spring.

The southern half of my state we have bats year round active, however activity is greatly reduced as are the food sources.

Each as we know must know their own state well, talk to other nwcos, biologists, researchers, anyone who ever sees
bats in houses or buildings. In this way you can gain other input that might illuminate something for you to add to your
own experience that in the end shapes the way you are doing business hopefully for the best.

Often these topics seem to become "this is the only way" and I'm not saying this in any of what I've stated, just my beliefs
based on my experience and that shared by others I believe in.

Justin, my SOP for a bat in a house is to ask if anyone could have been bitten. Usually the the answer is, "We hope not." The bat is

then put in a jar and either given to the customer or kept in the freezer until I remember to throw it out. I don't know how long it

can be viable for testing but at least we did everything we could to protect the customer. My last one was in the hallway of a

doctor's office. The peace of mind of a customer is worth the life of a bat.

Just my experience...

Hey Paul,

I'm glad you articulated that, what I'm not talking about in terms of winter exclusions is the single bat inside the living quarters, though my SOP for the bat itself is whatever my DOH says I must do depending on their scenario. I follow the letter of their policy in those cases.

The bat in the jar doesn't tell you rabid or not and either way the folks would have to get shots if it was rabid, something that is often brushed aside in discussions about this topic.

We do not spare the client anything by simply keeping the bat, it does spare the operator I know if the folks don't want it tested but then decide a day or two later they do, however the condition of the bat to confirm rabies or not is then in question and ultimately only if it comes up clean are shots not given.

This is another thread altogether, but one that is fraught with ideas and thoughts and not usually based on what the health department or CDC has written versus what folks need to do for their own liability concerns which I understand.

I do think everyone who does bat work and gets bats out of houses and decides to keep them should make sure they have a clear thought process that involves how to euthanize the bat based on proper standards, as well as how to store that bat or take it to the lab based on the need presented or legal authority from any state or local wildlife or animal control agency involved.

I think if pushed to it, folks would find the "keep it in the jar until" mentality doesn't cover liability if someone was bitten and didn't report it to you when you took the bat. You simply now have the smoking gun in a jar and left them without confirmation.

Again, this deserves its own thread, but what most of our colleagues are doing with bats removed from houses in these cases isn't based on firm action items that are legally defensible, but rather what we feel will defend us in a case where folks need the bat to be tested.

Rabies is highly subject to heat and during summer if not refrigerated or given directly to someone to test it is rendered useless very quickly in ambient temps.

Freezing causes lysis in cells so in the freezer isn't optimal either for such a small brain case and sample.

*****

I guess I'm just saying folks should on this topic have a firm policy that is in fact based on protecting the client versus starting a collection of bats in jars in the garage.

Again, off topic but a good topic for anyone who doesn't feel they have this down already.

Rabies is a slippery slope, kind of like roundworm and other things and how folks tell a client they can "kill it" or "disinfect it"
or "sanitize it" without knowing for certain, liability looms......

(disclaimer - i do understand the liability concerns and why folks take bats even when they are told no exposure, I understand this...)

Sorry Justin, I put down freezer, when I meant refrigerator. I'm back, but my brain is still on vacation.

No worries Paul.

Wow; great info. here.
I suggest that you learn the policies of the municipality in which the bat was caught. As a professional, you're likely liable if you take shortcuts and tragedy happens.

I always tell my customers that the bats will most likely have no reason to leave until spring once we get snow on the ground. I can do half down and half upon completion. Work will most likely be done after the ice goes out, but if we dont have a bunch of snow that day Ill do what I can. I do see some small colonies of little browns spread out and laying under the insulation, but not many. The frost comes in hard and fast here, and I suppose they were too busy to make travel plans.
As far as bats which are in the living space? Most of them go straight to the vet. Its all about making the customer feel better, and covering my 6. If a bat has to die for that.....thats the way it goes.

Justin I am not saying books and school are not needed, matter fact it may be hard to believe, but this ole redneck has read more research papers than I care to admit, and I wish that in my younger days I had gone to school rather than wanting to do the work, I would be way ahead of the game. I may not talk it on here, but I do understand it, so when I have to talk to the legislators or My state biologist, I have to talk on those levels. I get it. My problem is, and you, if you're honest, will admit it, (not saying you, I have never talked to you)that a person of intellect that is not in the field seeing what is really going on, making decisions will refer to papers from someone else of intellect in a complete different geographic area and time to make those decision, to try to figure out how to do something, rather than go to those in that area that are viewed as experts yet have no formal training. That is my beef with academia. and lets face it we all only want to hear and believe what we want to hear and believe. you and me are in the same boat in that aspect. unless we are willing to open our minds and thoughts.

Please forgive me if I placed you into a box, that was wrong of me. But you have to admit from the looks of the post placement and you posting 5 to 8 mins after me, you in my mind was dismissing me. You ticked me off! and in my weakness if you do tick me off you will hear what I have to say whether you like it or not, AND I expect the same form others to do it to me if I tick them off. That is how things get straightened out or sometimes like in the past things got bruised LOL. I would rather do it by voice face to face but here it started and here it must be. Please forgive me for the WAY I confronted you. The 2nd post WAS a lot nicer than the first post that went somewhere, but I may not have been as wise as I should have been.

I have learned in many years there is no one way of doing things. Pride only makes us do things a certain way. Sometimes that is good and some times that is wrong.

I don't think there are too many people on here reading this, maybe a few, that has given more lectures and talks over the years than I have on wildlife control, fur trapping, calling and deer scent usage. NOW hear me out before you think bad of me! I didn't say I was a good speaker just do a lot. The important thing to me is the one thing those talks do to me when I give them, is makes me realize just how much I do not know. Every time I talk to a group, someone comes to me afterwards and teaches me something. This last WCT I was schooled by 3 or 4 that didn't even know they was teaching me. Jim Bethell was one just to mention someone. The reason I learn is because I realize that I can only experience or draw a conclusion to something, in that, I see first hand. unless I see it, even though it may be true, it is only theory. So I take everything I read or hear from whoever or wherever, and then put it to work, and see if it not only works or fails 1 time but in fact works or fails 10 times in the same situation. bat work is no different. there is too much to learn and try to only do it one way. again I am not talking killing bats.

We here in the Wildlife control working field, are the proving grounds to the research. lets face it research can be off. What is plugged in will give the results. So it every thing is not plugged in, then maybe the results will be flawed. Most of what we know about the bats in houses are in theory. There has not been enough real time tested research to prove anything absolute yet. Every year something new comes out, and I have heard a lot of new coming out over the years. Different geographical areas will have different methods that work. We all know that, there is no one shoe fits all. But then again we are a bunch of A personalities that is passionate about our jobs.

That there is a smart redneck. Lol. Seriously...nice discussion.

I've been on a bunch of podcasts with Jonesie, and as far as having his head wrapped around the issue, and being able to stay on point, and explaining things, he is top notch. The day we stop learning is the day we start falling behind. Jonesie is a realist with an open mind who is willing to learn as well as teach. Thats the definition of a leader to me.