I've attended a few nwco seminars including the wct annuals.
So my question is most operators are 40-60 yrs old and the new guys coming in don't seem to last?What's up with this?
bob evans cwcp

At the risk of offending some of the new guys, I'll throw out my guesses.

1 - They jump in full-time before they have themselves established. Lack of income will cause a change of jobs quite rapidly!

2 - Poor business-building method. Primary cause is starting with the wrong outlook or idea. Typical for new folks to "assume" pricing below the competition will keep them growing. It will keep them BUSY (for a little while) but not growing.

3 - Related to #2... Not knowing how to figure costs. This includes all the things that they are probably not familiar with, as most have only worked for someone else in a job. Tools, equipment, liability insurance, ongoing vehicle maintenance and expenses, office expenses, advertising, building "warranty work" into pricing structures, taxes, health insurance, and then still providing for your entire family. (I probably missed about 20 other things, but those who survive the first 2 years will figure them out)

4 - Relating to #1.... Not having enough money put back to live on for a year or 2 while you build the business (for those who jump in full-time). I don't care how much your gross income is during year 1 and 2, you will not get ANY of it if you are investing back into the business as you should be.

5 - Treating it like a hobby (fur-trapping style) and not as a business. Yes, it can be fun, but it's not a "no-pressure" type of fun. The fun begins after you bust your @ss for a few years.

6 - Attempting to survive as a WCO in an area lacking adequate population (human). You're not going to make it in rural settings. Those people have guns and aren't afraid to kill critters.

7 - Trying to survive as a "trapper" (catching only) and not providing exclusion work and other income-producing services. Habitat mods, deck screening, attic vent screening, soffit work, chimney caps, and more.

8 - Directly relating to #7... poor reputation due to just capturing animals instead of solving the problem. More critters return. This is NOT job security. Job security is when your clients never have to call you again (pertaining to animals in structures). Yes, moles, beavers and muskrats may be long-term work.

9 - Inability to KNOW that you have worked for a year and are still losing money. (Lack of business plan, or lack of accounting skills or service)

10 - Failure to recognize what is making you money and what is a "drag" on your business. Drop the anchor services and move ahead.

Anouther great post there "Bat man"

One thing I see in a lot of new businesses.........Living outside your means........
Wife with a new car
new truck
Big payment book...........Then slow time hit......as they do every year

Great Post Ron and a good observation Robert. Just as an add on to what you have written. Over the years we have all seen folks that are all gung ho to get into the business then fizzle out and disappear. Often leaving us to clean up the aftermath.
My advise to those that are thinking of getting into the business is learn to trap first. This will give you a chance to learn your trade and to begin to aquire the equipment that you are going to need.
Know your target species. Read, go on line talk to others in the field, in short educate yourself.
Strive to be the best in your field. Set standards for yourself that are ethical, professional and humain.
Demonstrate respect. Respect for the wildlife that we capture and the enviroment that it is in, Respect for people that we deal with and above all respect for yourself.
Cheers
Pete

There not mean enough like us old timers!

Lt,you're a hoot! No I think it is todays work ethic combined with Ron's very good obsevation.I've seen lots of young guys get the itch and fade into the night. Everyone things the big ticket jobs,BAT,Bird to name a few will make them rich! They don't know how many work hours during the seson it takes too get thru the slow times?
We all talk about our good jobs maybe we need to talk about a few of those jobs from **LL we get from time too time?
bob evans cwcp

Ron and Vinke both make good points. More basic however is the lack of meaningful entry barriers. Anybody can set up shop no matter how unskilled or unprepared they are. How many posts have we all seen from folks who get their permit before they have a clue about what is involved in the business? They all think "easy money" without any thought at all as to whether or not they they have what it takes to be sucessful.

Of course there will be those who will chime in about how it was when we all started, how none of us knew what were were doing either and we should give the newbies and 'wanna just try it part-timers' a break. That was then, this is now.

As Pete said, we all end up cleaning up their mess. That would be no big deal if it ended there but it seldom does. This constant supply of messes that need to be cleaned up and out-of-service phone numbers relfect poorly on us all. We all suffer the consequences of negative public opinion caused by the here today gone tomorrow wannabe operators. It holds the industry back and impacts the ability of us all to make the living we are truly entitled to.

Wildlife control is a business, much more so than it was 20 years ago. While everyone who wants to be a wildlife control operator can presently be one that doesn't change the fact that not everyone who can be one should be one. We need to recognize that. Yes, the market place will eventually weed them out. But meanwhile the endless steam of jackasses who make us all look bad continues. We can do better.

Mandatory liability insurance, more stringent permitting requirements and realistic commercial license fees would go a long way toward making sure those who want to be a wildlife control operator have the forethought, the means, the knowledge and the motivation to succeed.


Mike Dwyer, President
Critter Control, Inc.
"Protecting People, Property & Wildlife"

Discover 'Animal Facts,' have fun with 'Animal Trivia,' and send 'Critter Cards' FREE at http://www.crittercontrol.com

Hey now Bob!! I'm 33 and been at it full-time since age 24. I started my first part-time business when I was in my sophmore year of high school. I have to say this is before NY had an age limit on getting the license. Did you see my profile in this months NYSWMA newsletter? It gives you a little more insight into my past and present. I'm half joking here though. I have been fur trapping since age 12 and put in my time learning the business. I will agree it takes a tremendous amount of dedication, drive and knowhow to be successful. See you at the March seminar.

Craig Conway

Nice artic fox Lt Grey. I caught me a few of them in the late 60's in Alaska.

Arrow1
Nice to hear from you.My son also started at an early age 12 did local calls on a bike no less.Lots 0f things have changed in the industry and legally.Insurance is now a must,with the voume of jobs comes liability!
Mike barriers aren't needed just good work ethics and a sound business scense and good training. A good course on salesmenship with the ability to sell ones self wouldn't hurt.
bob evans cwcp

Washington State just went the "other" way..........The WSTA got control of the program for instruction and testing..........Now the permits are being handed out like soup in the soup kitchen.....I hope it does not bit us in the Butt..........

You better correct that spelling Vinke.....if reads as if they already sank their teeth in ya'! ha Maybe I should move to the Seattle area and we'll own 1/2 of Washington state along the coastline!



I like clam chowder........

Lt.......we would make one heck of a "Team".........You expertise and my Good looks...........

Us means>>>>>> WSTA and trapping in general

Vinke,

Permits... what permits?

I certainly don't feel like I was "handed" an NWCO Certification.

But I also know that I didn't learn a single thing relating to actually operating a nuisance control business either.


I sure would like to know where you guys think a new guy is going to learn all that stuff.

You have to have experience, to do the job, but you have to do the job to gain the experience...
That's a serious "catch 22".

I know what the ADC guys in my area have NOT done to help the new guys out, what about the rest of you?
Do any of you DO SOMETHING to help, or do you just complain about "new guys".

As the newest guy around here, I am highly offended by the jist of this thread.

Mike,

I got my NWCO Certification, before I knew what I was going to do with it, for several reasons.

One, I struck while the iron was hot, I didn't want to miss out, and not be able to take the class later on down the road.
Because I had the time, and the chance, I took advantage of it.

Two, I was told that more numbers in the ranks was good for trapping, good for the Trappers Association, and a good thing for me personally (ironically by some of the very same people, who are now complaining about "new guys").

And thirdly, and most important of all, I HAVE TO have that certification to work for someone else.


Making nuisance trapping highly costly won't weed out the stupid, plenty of ignorant people have more dollars than sense.
Financial worth is often a poor representation of character, or just as often, a representation of poor character.

Brilliant example of the have's keeping the have-not's from ever having.

Merry Christmas?

Do you have any kind of clue, as to how greedy y'all look, right now?

Krusty

(Well Vinke says he looks handsome....)
...and you just look like you should have took me up on my offer to give you some of my extra equipment and show you how I used it when I came up to Washington state. But you declined.
Vinke on the otherhand didn't and I sent him all kinds of things and if he was smart...and I believe he is, he used it and took the lure making knowledge I showed him and will do something good with it.

Everyone I visit gets hundreds of dollars of free stuff from me personally.......greedy? Surely you jest!

Greedy???????????????????????? It is good business sense!!! Nothing more nothing less........
You need to get of the pity pot and Cowboy up! None of the comments are directed at you......But they are there for you and I and others to learn what it takes to run a successful business.

As far a handing out Certification (if you want to play word games)I saw many people walk into the room were the instruction was being given,,,,,,Then LEAVE the convention after they had taken the course......NOT WANTING to lean anything about trapping.....OR meet any of the people that make it possible for them to do so...........

I should have stuck with my original statement from long ago, but I thought I would give it a second chance........And I am resorting back to IT...................I'M DONE!!!!!!!!!!!
and good looking Ha!

29 here, been full time for 3.25 years, my wife has been full time with me for 2 years, we have a full time employee and have had him 1.5 years. i agree to lose the anchor services and give it all you got for the services that pay well, in our case it is moles, squirrels, and bats.

Well I am sorry if I ruffled some feathers, but I called it how I see it.

I didn't take or mean any of it personally, and don't expect, or want, any pity.

You guys, all of you, just plain confuse me.

In climbing, new guys not knowing what they are doing can be deadly, for the new guy and the "old guy".
We dealt with the problem pro-actively.

It's every climber's duty to teach the new guys, sort of a hardcore apprenticeship program.
If I teach you wrong, I die!

What apprenticeship system does the NWCO industry have in place?

I'm not the one who made things look the way they do, I'm just the one who said "the emperor has no clothes".

If it was important to you guys, you'd do something about it.

Show me, what's being done? What part are any of YOU playing in that?

If you're not part of the solution, maybe you're part of the problem?


If, as a whole, and purposefully, making nuisance trapping too costly for all but the financially well off, like "you guys" already in the game, isn't greedy, what is it?

I never said anyone WAS greedy, I said ideas like this can make you LOOK greedy.

From the outside looking in, this thread didn't seem friendly, at first, it's gone downhill from there.
You knew this might offend "some of us" and now you are busting my chops because I am, and I said so?

Krusty

As to the subject of "Many people", I have some thoughts.

I'd have to double check but I believe it's less than 40% of the people who pass trapper training go on to get a trapping license that year.

Threads like this one are a prime example of why...

With Ron's "Top Ten Reasons You Don't Cut It".

By the time "many people" are armed with some knowledge about what it actually takes just to be a hobby trapper, they realize "it's not for them".
The "problem animal permit" process is likely to scare just as many away from NWCO work.


They might also believe they are in for more of what they have just been through... both the regular trapper training, and the NWCO certification course, are mind numbingly boring.

Less so when presented by the WSTA, but still (based on the materials covered), stale and steeped with boring passages of law, with very little (to no) actual trapping covered.

They might need a nap?


It's also hard for the neophyte to see that anything HAS BEEN SAVED, after spending anywhere from two, to six hours, being told what's NOT legal.


Top that off with the same "us" and "you", that we see played out here, and we have strong grounds for alienation.

Krusty.... I'm in absolute agreement about your "take" on much of this "discussion". I hope that you don't look at my "10 reasons" as a slam or dig at any of the newer guys.... I felt that sticking those observations out there would actually be taken as HELPFUL. I've read my own post a couple times now, and still don't see any negatives directed at anyone.

There is no such thing as starting ANY business as a "pro" and never will be. People can take all the classes in the world and have 35 certification "initials" after their name, but that doesn't make them any better than the next guy in this business.

There is an excellent message board for NWCOA members that is by far the best source of info for this industry and has a large group of HELPFUL members on board. I joined the NWCOA several years ago, and to this day the most helpful benefit of being a member is having access to that message board.

Without going into what some feel as "nasty" details, the shut-down of the original NWCOA board (NWCOA.net) over a year ago caused a big shake-up in the WCO industry "leaders". Another association was formed (wildlifemanagementpro.org) and there was a bit (huge amount) of bickering and conflicts concerning which way "everyone" wanted the industry to go.

There are now 2 WCO groups, and though some feel a "split" was a weakening of the industry, others are happy that both exist. From a strictly "observatory" outlook, I see the NWCOA (which I am still a member and fully support) wanting to continue to work with state agencies and WCO's to direct the industry in a positive fashion. However, they do not PUSH mandatory insurance, mandatory testing, or other business related issues that (I feel) should be left to the individual operators. I think you're crazy to operate without insurance, but don't feel your business is anyone's business but yours.

The NWPMA is totally focused on the business aspect. The are working at mandatory requirements for all WCO's. Their website has plenty of info for you to check out.... make your own decision on their goals. I think it is fairly obvious that their "plans" for "barriers" are somewhat self-serving, but that's for each one of us to decide.

Taking wildlife management (nuisance) away from DNR / F&G and giving it to Ag or health agencies will instantly KILL a huge number of potential WCO's, especially the guys (trappers) who are best suited for the work. It will be highly regulated, and I myself HATE excessive regulatory agencies. Since when has the government been able to run ANY programs right? I'm in the "less government, more freedom" group.

This doesn't mean I think WCO work should be a free-for-all as it is in many states. Poor representation will kill us faster than government regs, but there has to be a balance there somewhere.

Check out NWCOA.com and the NWCOA.INFO sites. And don't hesitate to send me an e-mail or PM any questions you may have. I think any of the guys on here who post tips and pics of various jobs are HELPING. It's just too easy to let some "typed" comments get your blood pressure up.......

Ron,

I didn't see anything negative in your list, and I (am inclined to) agree with others, it seems like good information, based on facts gleaned from personal experience.

The fact is, though, for all the reasons you listed, and more, many people don't have what it takes.

Studies show that 85% of all small businesses fail, there's no way to put up "barriers" to that, in any industry.

All of this, is helpful... but it appears it's information that's not getting to (or not sinking in for) many of the individuals who most need to hear it?

Like I say, if it was as important to you that these "new guys" have the skills needed for the "industry" to survive... as it is for my climbing partner to know how to stop the rope while I am falling... maybe the information that addresses your list, is what should be made available?
An if your own butt is on the line for any mistakes these guys might make, maybe you should personally make sure they know how not to make them?

An apprenticeship is how this issue was handled by most trades, in the past, and would definitely end the free for all, as well as solving other problems (like the catch 22).


Webster's Dictionary defines a forum as;

"A place for the exchange and debate of ideas and information."

As an outsider, trying to find my way in, I think my point of view is valuable to the debate, and viable information.
Just like your experience gives you a point to view the subject from, my lack of it gives me a whole different view, without either of us being "right or wrong".

My view might come from left field, but somebody has to be the left fielder.

Otherwise I wouldn't participate in these forums.

I appreciate your understanding, and your willingness to discuss this further.
Character like that, lends credibility to what you have to say, thank you.

I might have to check out some other forums... lord knows I could use a break from this one.

Krusty

Getting new ideas was the reason for stirring the pot with my post.It was not directed at any one just the industry as a whole.
My ancestors believed in shareing knowledge and they instaled that in me at an early age.

As an industry we need new blood but we have to prepare them for some of the problems.it ain't all a bed of Roses.

Now that everyones awake HOW CAN THE INDUSTRY (YOU) help newbes?
JUST WHAT DO THEY NEED FOR TRAINING?
Bob Evans CWCP

A good thread Robert.

I'm 41 and haven't even reached my first year mark in the WCO business.

The way I look at it, I don't think other WCO's can help me. Encourage me - yes.

But...If it is to be, it's up to me.

Skunk03,Your right on it being up to YOU.
I've been at this since 1990 and I can use training help,do you KNOW every thing?
Bob Evaqns Cwcp

I have had the benefit of getting a lot of training and here are a few thoughts :

Why would any WCO want to teach someone the tricks of the trade to someone who could be a competitor and potentially steal your work ? I went to one school that gave out a survey and asked the question " Would you recommend this school to another WCO ? " One reply they got back was " Yes , but only if they lived 150 miles away or more. " I would think that this is somewhat true in a competitive market.

Think about that for a minute.

What can you do ?

It's a rat race out there.....The smartest and quickest rats survive and eat most of the grain and become fat. Don't be the rat on the bottom of the ladder , get the tools you need to advance before your competitor. You can skip school and learn at the school of hard knocks , take 10+ years to get good and really start to earn a good salary or join a franchisee who will teach you but take part of your profits.

Or you can bite the bullet , spend money and time to INVEST in your training. The money I have spent investing in my own training I have gotten back 10 fold. I went from a "newbie" to a seasoned pro in a very short period of time. I now know a lot more than some people who have be doing this a lot longer than I have. However I am always willing to learn more , the more I know , the more money I can make at this and I have a very low failure rate.

I got interested in this field by a friend of mine who was a co-worker where I used to work. My friend is about 65+ years old and been trapping most of his life. He has been doing nuisance wildlife work ever since the idea was thought up , however because I have had so much training that he has not , the student has now become the teacher. He asks me questions all the time because I have learned more that he has in his 50+ years of trapping. Not to say he does not have anything to share , he does and I listen , I want to learn too.

Don't want to be a "newbie" or sell out to a franchise ?

Here's a great way to kick start your career -




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(The NWMPA Wildlife Control Boot Camp web site is under construction and shall be operational very soon. Web site will include all information regarding fees, scheduled classes, instructors and vendors. Please watch for upcoming announcement of URL on http://www.npwma.net and http://www.wildlifemanagementpro.org/

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The guys that know their business inside out are the ones who are living in a good neighborhood , taking care of their family , putting braces on the kids and having plans to send those same kids to college. Much better than just scraping by on what little you know. Most franchise owners do very well because the have the tools they need to make a good wage , but at a cost.

Question , which way to you want to go ?

Cragar,good info.What are You getting out of it? I'm not here to SELL anything.I would like to help some of the beginers.My competion helped train me and are still helping.
Each operator has a job they like and excel at,there is room for everyone.
Bob Evans cwcp

Bob , good question. The only thing I am SELLING here is yourself. As Mike Dwyer and Pete said , they are a lot of untrained people out there that make mistakes that make us all look bad and we end up cleaning up their messes.

I see a lot of new people come and go because it took too much work to learn the proper way to handle wildlife. I cannot stress the value of learning everything you can about running your business to success. This is a lot more than trapping animals. Unless you have a great support system like the way franchisees have , with training , sharing of information between franchisees , and someone who will help you out when you get stuck , it can take a long time to learn all this valuable information.

There is several resources out there that can help you learn how to be come a better WCO/ business owner. books , trade magazines ,videos , web sites ( like this one ) , seminars , state/federal training , and other resources. Eat , Sleep and Breathe being a Wildlife Control Professional , The key here being a PROFESSIONAL. I read every book I can , Subscribe to every trade magazine , have seen most of the videos on the market , I am active on several web sites , go to every seminar I can , attend every state training event. I want to learn everything I can about my trade. I want my colleagues to respect me and my work , I want my customers to be amazed at my skills.

This training has got me a lot of titles , CWCP , ACP , National Goose Academy Graduate , FTA Trapper's College Graduate , Bird Barrier certified installer ,BCI certified excluder , Bird-B-Gone certified installer and more. But these are just titles that 99.999% of the population don't understand. The REAL value is in the knowledge of how it all works , not the title.

Yes , networking with someone in your area is worth it's weight in gold. I have done this since I got started in this business and consider my competitors as colleagues , not the enemy . Your close competitors will not want to do better than them , so sharing of knowledge is somewhat limited. This is where being in a franchise is a BIG advantage , they share info quite freely amongst themselves .

If you have ever been to a function were WCO's are meeting there is great value in sharing of tips and experiences that others have to share. This information is worth it's weight in gold. You can only learn so much from books , videos, web sites and magazines. Going to one day seminar a year is great , even if some of the subject is a bit old hat to someone who has done some work , but interacting with others is always something new and valuable. Attending a regional or state run event will have some drawbacks. There will be direct competitors who will not share any information because they view their competitor as a threat , not an ally. This goes back to old-style trappers who would keep all their techniques secret from other trappers and quite literally took this information to the grave.

Now go to a national event and things are different. One of the first things attendees want to know is there anyone else attending who operates near your service area. Once most attendees find out that there are no competitors present they will sing like a canary about their top-secret method to remove *blank* animal. It is almost like a dam bursting over this big secret they are so proud to have discovered and don't want the guy in the next town away from them to know.

Go to a national multi-day or week long event not only will you get to learn some ' top-secret ' tips , you get to know people and bond with them over the course of several days , you will learn some of their deepest and darkest secrets that they are willing to share. When I went to NWDMA some nights we were up to 2 am just B.S.-ing and swapping tales and tricks. A lot of the instructors at the FTA trapper's college looked forward to the new crop of students every year. Why ? Even with 20-30-40 or even 50 + years of trapping experience there is always something they can learn from their students that in turn makes the instructor a better trapper. Did you know that several of these schools have the same students year after year , taking the same curriculum ? They are there to learn from others not just the instructors. Did you know a fair amount of really good seasoned professionals attend this too ? I have seen quite a few students that probably could teach some of these classes better than the instructor could , however the topic is a lot of times almost an open discussion, and information is shared freely - everybody learns - everybody gains.

Training is not costly , it is an investment. ( plus a tax write-off ) The year I graduated from NWDMA , one month later I made $7,000.00 from just one technique I learned. That made the cost of tuition a joke. That technique is still paying benefits.

Ron , very good #10 things list , I can't agree more.

Krusty , I have seen a lot of your posts and this thread and other places on the site. You have got some good things to contribute and I respect your posts. What I think others are trying to express is that in order to provide a PROFESSIONAL service there is costs involved , insurance , equipment , advertising etc ,etc. You have to charge quite a bit more than someone who is untrained ,uninsured , driving a beat-up truck and quite frankly not very good at what job they perform. You will find this in every trade from the guy down the street that does carpentry on the side - but he takes forever , to your sister's brother-in-law - who fixed your plumbing - but it's still leaking , to the landscaper that does not speak English and one of his helper's just relived himself behind one of your bushes. You get what you pay for. It can be very difficult to justify higher costs to a customer that has gotten a low-ball price from someone who is new or just part-timing for beer money.

But.....?

What's your point?



Duh! What I am trying to express is I don't see any of these people doing anything to help a new guy identify what these costs actually are, or avoid the myriad of pitfalls.

From out of the blue, we are supposed to be able to identify our market, find a niche within it, gain a good enough understanding of it, to write a business plan (that won't fail), and then do the job with the skill and efficiency of a seasoned pro?


Let's look at Ron's list, and deal with it by the numbers.

1. How does one "establish themselves", and what does that mean?

2. How does one without a clue of what the industry even does, on a day to day basis, come up with a plan at all, let alone a good one?

3. Without experience, where will "familiarity" come from... without cognition... there can be no recognition.
How can one address issues they don't know about until they arise?
So a good NWCO is psychic?

4. If they didn't have to struggle on they're own, like you say, for two years or longer, they would make less mistakes for you to clean up after.
They likely wouldn't need as deep of reserves if they went into it "properly prepared".
Wouldn't it be better to be taught to swim, than to be pushed off the dock... sink or swim, sucker! (by someone who could be the lifeguard instead)?

5. Where is a "regular trapper" supposed to learn the difference? Again by leaving these people to dangle in the wind, you are creating the messes you have to clean up.
This is a perfect example of how the information the addresses this list needs to get to them, before it's too late.

6. See #5

7. Once more I refer back to #5, where is a trapper supposed to learn all this stuff?

I worked in the construction trades for the better part of 30 years.
I never even considered that bats (or any other animals) were not being excluded by standard building practices, or what the solutions would be to any problems that this might create in the future.

At this point, even with an advanced set of construction skills, and tools, I wouldn't know where to apply them to NWCO work.

8. Takes us back to #3 and #4, if they were able to recognize the importance of exclusion work, and or had the skills to perform said tasks, they would be more likely not to taint the reputation of "you guys" as a whole.
Proper representation of the group, is better achieved through
personal interaction between those who already posses that reputability, and those who do not.

I seriously doubt anyone goes out there and fails to do a good job because, they don't want to, more likely, they didn't possess the skills needed for the job, or a basic understanding of what the job was... like Cragar's sister's brother-in-law.

Part of this responsibility lies on the customer, too, they often try to cut costs, and get what they paid for in the process.

9. We're back to the beginning, what is a business plan? And without having worked in the industry, where is this foundation of knowledge that they are supposed to build on?

10. Without an idea of what "services" there are, to do, how can one pick and choose between them?
It would be real easy to get stuck in a rut, because it's the only thing you know how to do.

I think Cragar stated it honestly, and well.

"Why would any WCO want to teach someone...?" And went on to say for the most part they don't want to.

Nothing about the industry will change for the better, until this is fixed.
As long as you not only allow, but force others to struggle and die, you will have to put up with the stench of rotting corpses.

Now some of you are starting to look hypocritical.


Nick,

I applaud your fortitude, sticking with it, despite the fact that people are secretly pulling for you to fail, takes guts.

I guess that's the kind of "friends" we have here on Trapperman.... don't you feel honored to be "one of them"?

Mark Twain said "I'd never want to be part of a club, that would have a man like me as one of it's members" I have never understood that more than I do right now.

I'm glad I'm just "me".

Krusty

Nick,

You are taking a very good approach to "making it" in this business. Trying to go full-time immediately often results in failure, as it takes a while to build your business. That's #1 on my list of reasons to fail. I started part-time back in 1990 when Illinois first started the commercial permit system, as there was no way that the business could have supported a family back then. It gets tough to work "2 jobs" but it is a safer approach to surviving the "initiation".

"Newbie" is a relative term..... it is used far too often in this industry. An established WCO may see a new ad in the Yellow Pages, and immediately looks at it as a "newbie" jumping in. In many cases the guy has been doing WCO work for several years, and finally decided to advertise in that media. He is NOT a newbie, but the guy who doesn't know him instantly applies that tag.

I think what most WCO's who have been at this for a long time will "complain" about should not be tagged as a newbie, but more of a fly-by-nighter. Some states don't require testing and permits, so it's a free-for-all. A guy with a pick-up truck who buys 3 cage traps is suddenly out there "competing" with you, and sadly enough the public will take the hit for his lack of professionalism.

Many have no liability insurance, and operate on a cash basis thinking they are "outsmarting" the government and those who run a serious commercial business. In reality they are a time bomb out there.... an accident looking for a place to happen. Of course that happens in any business (as Cragar mentions). I can find 15 back yard mechanics that will fix my car, or a dozen uninsured house painters who will "cut me a deal". Trying to eliminate those people is a waste of time. Focusing on your own business by providing good service will be the key to success.

I am glad to see that Cragar has taken advantage of all the training. It will save ANYONE just starting out a ton of grief as compared to "trial and error" learning techniques. I'm also in agreement with the fact that NONE of our clients have a clue what any of the certification titles mean, nor do they care. The training is for US, not the customer. Customers want their problem dealt with in a professional manner.

If you've been working at this for a couple years and are providing service with successful results, don't worry if anyone on here or anywhere else tags you a "newbie". You and your customers are the ones that count. Any of us who learned "the hard way" have all made plenty of mistakes as we went along, and the key is learning from them and adjusting.

Hey........I resemble that remark........ Ha!

but it got me by for 4 years (still consider myself a Newbie).......bought me a new dodge (cash) because I do not want to be tied to a payment book during the slow times... I enjoy my family more then running a buisness

Some people are "made" to succeed in business......They have "business sense".......other are made to be "worker Bees"......because they want to go home at 5 and forget about there day and not worry about or plan about tomorrows...................

Nick , please take this as constructive criticism , not a personal attack. Nice Jack Russell by the way , I've got one too.






That is quite normal , most people will part-time 2-6 years on average before making the jump to full time.

True , but you are starting to learn the real costs of running a business vs. a hobby. Now is the time to look at how much profit you are making and ask "am I charging enough ?" My prices have gone up again and again and again to the point that some people are outraged at what I ask to perform a certain task. Ideally you SHOULD get some customers that are outraged and appalled at your price. If you are selling 100% of your proposals , you are priced too low. I average 25 % refusals on work , because I charge more. I do those other 75 % jobs and make profit to keep my business healthy - but not greedy. Read Ron's # 3 and #10

I don't think anyone here wants you to fail or make it harder , the only people that might wish that is someone who is in your service area. However , I think a lot of the comments here are directed at how difficult it is to learn the proper way to do business. I seriously doubt ANYONE who could HONESTLY tell you it was a piece of cake to get started. That is where a franchise is a much easier way to get started , than the school of hard knocks.

Because the industry as a whole just took a black eye. If WCO's are portrayed as slobs like shifty used car salesmen , fly-by-night contractors and slimy late night telemarketers , the general public will not want to pay you for your skills and knowledge so you can afford to live in a good neighborhood and send your kids to good schools. I had a customer grill me once about my prices being too high. I asked him if he liked living in a nice house in a good area. He said " Sure , its nice here" I replied back to him that I want to live in a nice house in a good area too , just like everyone else. It is expensive to live here and I think he understood that.

Yes , but only to be replaced with new ones.

At the point where you will call in sick to your regular job to make more money for the day than your regular job. Then you need to be at the point where that happens again and again so your regular job is paying less year round than you could be making working for yourself.

Sorry , posted half a thought , did not get to finish what I meant to say. You have a lot of skills for climbing and rigging ropes and the like that some of us would kill for. The trade as a whole has been crying for more training on this subject and would gladly love to hear more to keep us safer on the job. Your skills in constuction are a lot more valuable in this trade than you think , don't worry you will find out.
You are also smart enough to ask the dumb questions , that's right -smart enough to ask the dumb questions- There are no dumb questions , just people dumb enough to not ask them.

Good move with the new truck. I started out with an old truck too. But it was starting to leak oil and after spending lots of money to stop the leaks. I could only get the oil leaks down to the point where it would leave 1 or 2 drops of oil in a customer's driveway. The truck was too old to properly get it sealed so I would have no leaks at all without spending massive amounts of money. So I got a new one , not like my old truck was breaking down or anything like that. Quite frankly I would have been happier with the older truck , cheaper than a new one , but I can not afford to have it leak oil in customer's driveways ,I could care less if it leaked in my own driveway. Just like a real estate agent needs to have a nice late model car to show homes to clients , having a new truck shows to your customer that this is a serious business and not some "guy" that does this on the side.

Very true , I miss working for someone else who deals with all the problems after I punch out at 5 pm.

Never said working for yourself is easier , just different.

[quote=Krustyklimber]


Duh! What I am trying to express is I don't see any of these people doing anything to help a new guy identify what these costs actually are, or avoid the myriad of pitfalls.

From out of the blue, we are supposed to be able to identify our market, find a niche within it, gain a good enough understanding of it, to write a business plan (that won't fail), and then do the job with the skill and efficiency of a seasoned pro? quote]

This is why I brought up the information for the NWMPA wildlife boot camp. You have many ,many questions as you should. I had just as many when I got started. It is way too hard to answer every question that you will have to go about this successfully. I am still asking questions and trying to learn more. I tell my customer's that I never stop learning , the animals always have something new to teach me. Will you learn everything you need to know by going to a school - NO WAY. But you will learn a lot and that is usally enough to get you pointed in the right direction. This is up to you , how bad to you want to learn and how fast ? Schools , seminars , books ,videos all cost money and time. Franchise owners cut the time to earning over learning much faster than the rest of us , that is why they share some of their profits with corporate owners. The corporation is giving them valuable information to make them successful , getting paid for their knowledge of how to run a business profitably.

Cragar,

Thanks for elaborating on that, I thought you might have been going someplace, but I couldn't tell where.

The value of my construction skills is not lost on me, that's why I will continue to rely on them, to pay my bills.

I do all the work I do now, by word of mouth reputation, and repeat customers. So I'm not the only one who recognizes that value.



That you did.

It was expected that "new guys" should know the things on the list, long before you or I posted in this thread (Ron was the first respondent).
I was speaking to "the industry's" lack of grass roots, regional, instruction, interaction, and apprenticeship.

How can the industry endorse a training system whereby a NWCO can become certified without ever laying eyes on a trap?

Krusty

For someone who understands construction you will have a major leg up on someone else starting out in this business. Everybody thinks there is "easy money" to be made in this business. Doing exclusion work AKA construction repair you can make a lot of money quickly by offering the total package of inspection , trapping and removal , clean-up and exclusion to prevent re-entry. Easily turning a problem into one-stop shopping for your client and a larger ticket job for you. Very easy sell , customers ask if you can do the whole job . Read Ron's # 7 I have people ask me all the time if I am interested to do unrelated repair jobs for them on the side

Sounds like you already know a bit about how to run a business , better yet you have repeat customers and have a understanding of public relations. This turns into more word of mouth advertising. You asked about being "established" , that is part of what you already have , how many of your current customers can use your skills as a WCO ? If you do a good job at construction and can learn to add catching the critters out of the structure your client base will expand quickly. Customers are far more likely to hire someone they know and have tried than someone new. Getting "established" takes some time and effort to get there but it will come as fast as you can get your name out there , you already have a little bit of a "leg-up" at this goal.




This industry's grass roots are very shallow , I know very few people who have been doing this for more than 30 years. This is an all new trade that can follow it's roots to trappers who specialized in ADC work. This however is very different doing nuisance wildlife control vs animal damage control. ADC trapping is done in a more radical manner than most urban city dwellers could handle in today's political correct world. As far as instruction there was almost none 15 years ago. This mostly got started by a few WCO's that started state associations only just 10 years ago. These same associations started to offer training as more and more WCO's were needed to handle animals.

Apprenticeship is a real mixed bag. I know of several WCO's who have trained people to work for them only to have those same people quit , open up their own business and directly compete against the same person that taught them . That hurts big time . Not only is it a slap in the face but it hits your wallet too. There has been talk of a two-tier licence system like some pest control licenses that would not allow you to work on your own until you worked for someone else. However you are stuck making someone else rich before you can spread your wings and fly solo. This would also be another barrier to someone new to the business and as you mentioned you don't want established WCO's from putting roadblocks in your way. I agree. However this lets you ( and everyone else ) loose with not having to learn unless you want to learn.

I am one of the instructors for my state's new WCO licensees getting a licence for the first time. The class consists of laws , legal methods , public perception of WCO's , disease and vectors of public health , euthanasia , filing paperwork with state , animal cruelty and basic biology of most common animals handled. This is a very bare bones class that just about covers you to get a licence and keep out of trouble violating game laws. Then there is a 175 multiple choice test that is NOT easy.

Our state would like use to offer a more involved training class to new WCO's , however this could easily take a LOT more time and money. Does the state have the money for this -NO . Would you tell a prospective WCO wanna-be that the state wants you to take a class that costs $300-$500-$1000 in order to get a licence ? Another roadblock you don't need. A bit of a catch-22 , huh ?

Cragar,

Part of the way I built up a good reputation, is knowing when I'm in over my head, and admitting it.

I just turned down an electrical repair job, because I don't possess the skills to complete it... instead of pulling a "sister's brother-in-law", and doing it poorly.

I cannot sell "the total package" because I am only qualified to make the repairs.
At this point, despite the new license in my pocket, I am still advising clients to hire an experienced NWCO.

Dude... aren't you the one who suggested I need to spend (way more than) $1000 just to USE my license?

I would rather have paid for some training (locally), in the first place... to make said license useful... instead of wasting that time and expense, getting an otherwise worthless piece of paper.

Until I understand A LOT MORE about trapping, I am not going to set a single trap, for fur or for any other reason.

I know enough to know I lost way too much money last year (because of my lack of training and experience), and to leave my traps in the garage, lest I lose even more money this year...

Hanging traps, LOSE no money!

Krusty

Krusty-


I uh........nevermind

Robb,

Uh.... okay?

That's too bad, I was just thinking about how many people are not participating in this discussion.

I dunno why you guys have a problem? I'm just following your advice...

I am not going to do #1 (jump into the business), because of #2 (I don't have a plan, or experience), and #4 (inadequate start up resources, and no money set aside).
But most of all, NOT because of #9... as I said, I can see that I was already losing money (just trying to learn how to trap).
And that I would continue to lose money, and I could not provide a service worth paying for, until I had better skills.

"You guys" should be happy about it.

Krusty

This is a fun thread to read. Now if you want to add another layer of headache, scroll down on the main page to my post on computers. I share all the equipment I have. We (wife and I) did alot of research to find this equipment.
When you get into bookkeeping on the computer you will think about leaving the whole business hanging in the shed!
Everthing has a learning curve. The more you do the better you get.
Dave

LT would be proud............we are up yo two pages...

LT?????????????? Get that computer fixed yet??????

Two pages...

Nothing has been accomplished.....

And I am ready to throw my trapping stuff in the Ocean, again....

LT would be ecstatic.

Cragar,

I found some interesting stuff in the links you provided.



That's an interesting claim to make...



But, this one goes beyond interesting, right on to outrageous!

BECAUSE... all it takes to be one of these "skilled and accountable, qualified professionals"... WHO "can conduct a full assessment"... and "take steps to eliminate the problem and educate homeowners..."

...IS $100!

This is a joke, and I'm missing it, right?

After I send the $100, how are they going to make sure I really am, and can do, all the things they claim?

I can't browse either site, until I join, so I didn't see anything about training.

Just as well I guess, if it costs $100 just to look at the website, I probably don't want to know how much the school costs?

I do wonder, though, if I might actually see a TRAP at that school?

Krusty

It is good to admit when you are in a bit over your head , however you have to learn sometime. When you first held a hammer in your hand I bet you smacked your fingers a few times. It takes a little time to get to the point where you can pound a 12 D nail in with 3 -4 hits without bending it over. It also takes some time to be able to take a saw and get a nice straight flush cut too. Regardless of what you are going to learn , it takes time and trial and error. No one is perfect right from the get-go. I made quite a few mistakes first starting out (and still make some) , you need to get out there and get your hands dirty , just pick some jobs that don't present too much of a challenge and get started.
Don't be self defeating by putting up your own roadblocks. Think more like Clint Eastwood in the movie Heartbreak Ridge " You are a Marine ! - Innovate , Adapt and Overcome. " No one out there is going to be able to teach you everything you need to know in this business. Did my training help me out the time I caught an Iguana 25 ft up a tree -or- the time I was called to catch a peacock loose at some condos -or- catching a sick coon with a catchpole 45 ft up a fire escape - NO. It has been said before and I will repeat it helps quite a bit in this trade if you have a bit of MacGuyver in you and can come up with a solution off the top of your head.

 Originally Posted By: Krustyklimber

Dude... aren't you the one who suggested I need to spend (way more than) $1000 just to USE my license?

I would rather have paid for some training (locally), in the first place... to make said license useful... instead of wasting that time and expense, getting an otherwise worthless piece of paper.

Until I understand A LOT MORE about trapping, I am not going to set a single trap, for fur or for any other reason.

I know enough to know I lost way too much money last year (because of my lack of training and experience), and to leave my traps in the garage, lest I lose even more money this year...

Yes, I suggested you spend $1000+ to invest in training. I am also going to suggest you spend far more than that sum , but not all at once. Buy books , videos , magazines , go to seminars , go online and glean whatever information you can to further your learning curve. Learning does not stop. In this trade new ideas and tools are being dreamed up on a regular basis. Training keeps you on top of the latest ideas that can save you from smashing your fingers with that hammer. Taking a comprehensive week long class will get you much more prepared to run a business and be a more successful WCO than by learning in little bits and pieces.

Want to learn but not spend lots of money ?

OK , now I bit my tongue before and kept quiet but I am about to take a shot at you right now. Please take this as constructive criticism.

You had a chance to meet up with LT Grey and get some valuable knowledge and tips plus some free equipment to boot. Not good. Doing a "ride-along" with someone who has been doing this for a while is very good way to learn. I have done this with other operators and to say the least it was fun , educational , eye-opening and you now have an ally to help you overcome unforeseen challenges by picking up the phone and calling someone who could possibly may be able to give you some tips to succeed in the task at hand. It is best to find someone who is a little bit out of your service area to do this with as some close competitors may not like the idea of teaching the competition. If I had a chance to do a ride-along with LT Grey , I would jump at it. Matter of fact , I would be willing to drive 500+ miles each way to Ohio and spend $$$ on dino-juice to spend a day picking someone's brain and sharing knowledge of my own. ( LT Grey , if you are reading this and are interested in having someone ride-along , P.M. me and I will buy dinner and beer that day. )

 Originally Posted By: Krustyklimber

Hanging traps, LOSE no money!

Yes , hanging traps lose no money , but they also don't make any money. Starting out you will lose money , have a hard time pursuing your quarry , Smash a few fingers and make some dumb mistakes. Hopefully you will not get hurt in the process. It is all part of learning , I think I learn the best from my mistakes. I learn to never , never do the same stupid thing again. You will never be perfect and always have some amount of screw-ups but , training will prevent a lot of them from happening in the first place.

Every time you fail or lose money on a job , you learn. The peacock I mentioned before , I did not catch it. I went a couple times to try to catch it and only one time I was able to get close enough to throw a net over it and it surprised me on how quickly it could become air-bourne by jumping straight up into the air and flying away. Those long legs they have are like springs and it is amazing how fast a bird of that size can be 20 feet in the air at the blink of an eye. I learned. I also did not get paid. I took that call knowing that I might not get paid. The bird was an escapee that no one claimed ownership to and the callers were concerned about coyotes catching the bird. I wanted to catch it solely for the glory and possibility of some real good media coverage being the hero that saved the day and rescued it and got it to some place that would take care of it. I failed but I doubt the coyotes did much better , seeing how well it could get air-borne.

NPWMA.net is a free website , you must register to join and use your real name to sign up. They will not allow you to use an nickname to prevent people who may want to discredit people working in this trade by hiding behind a screen name.

I am quite sure you will see plenty of traps and equipment of all kinds at that school. It is kinda hard to teach without them.

Krusty-

I agree completely with Cragar. You have had great opportunities to learn from both LT Grey and David Vinke. No one locally will ever teach you like you expect.

Krusty,a humbled opinion if you can stand another? Don't turn down work net work with the people in your area that can PROVIDE this work.In turn they will send you work IN YOUR FIELD OF WORK.AS to training HOW CAN I HELP YOU? Answer ? This is what I started this tread for to try an identify what people getting into this business want to learn and what WE as working in it can do so you have what you need?
bob evans cwcp

Without airing a whole lot of dirty laundry, I can say that I tried as hard as I could to deal with both LT and Vinke.

I was actually surprised that LT came to town without telling me.

The last correspondence I had with him, the plan was I was going to pick him up at the airport and drive him up north... then he fell off the radar (and like a dummy I worried about him, not even knowing a flight number to check on).
I e-mailed, I left phone messages, and I was bummed out.

To this day, I don't know why he did me like that.

LT blamed it on Dave, and Dave blamed it on him?
I'm willing to accept my part of the blame, and move on.

Do a search of the history between the three of us (Vinke deletes the cheap shots he takes, so he may appear more innocent), it's not an invisible thing.

I offered LT a handcarved wooden predator call, worth around $100, for the traps he offered me.
He refused to ever send them, even though I was under the assumption we had "a deal"... it's in the archives.
LT also said he was sending me some tapes, but they never showed up... also in archives.

It's funny that real names come into question.... LT is a nameless faceless anonymous imposter.

He's hiding behind a screen name right now.

My name, Jeff Savoie, is posted on this site, in several places,and it's in the phonebook.
I'm not hiding from anything.

When I first asked Vinke to take me on a ride along he told me he was "not allowed to take unlicensed passengers" (which is totally false).
I offered to carry loads, buy lunch, or help him out in any way I could (I know I have skills that would be valuable to him).

I continue to try and help both, Vinke and LT, go look at the outline on cage trapping, I wrote for Dave... archives.
Or ask LT how many pm's I sent him, trying to teach him to post photos, and other computer skills (that could make him a better businessman).

Both of them, do a good job of LOOKING LIKE they are willing to help, but neither has ever come through, in reality.

I didn't squander something, that doesn't exist. They snatched the rug out from under me...

Burn me once, shame on you...
Burn me twice, shame on me.

Cragar,

It doesn't matter if the water is one inch, or one thousand feet over your head, both will drown you, if you're trapped.

I thought the whole point here was "it's a new day, that was then and this is now"... "there's no room for newbies to make mistakes, it gives the industry a black eye"...?

And since you have no idea what my actual skills are, how can you say I won't make "too many"?

Without confidence, I'm pretty sure I would, and that I would put my family back in the financial hole I dug last year (unsuccessfully fur trapping full time, and paying lawyers fees), I'm still struggling to get out of.

It doesn't matter who puts up roadblock, if they are real.

If I found roadblocks in Ron's well thought out list, perhaps there's a reason for it? And I should try to be intelligent enough to weigh the situation for myself, with my own scales.

You have no clue what skills I do or do not possess, so it's easy for you to gamble with my future.
Doing so holds no consequences for you.

I don't like the idea of a website that is private, so it's unlikely I would join, just to look around and possibly never return.

Interesting to me, the only question you didn't answer is the BIG one, "After I send the $100, how are they going to make sure I really am, and can do, all the things they claim?"

If I can BUY IT, how does that title hold any truth?

Robb,

I repeat... The opportunity was a sham. It never existed.

I don't think you understand what I "expect", and what I don't.

I offered "the industry" my thoughts on the possible solutions, to an obvious problem, in this thread.

And I only offered them merely for the sake of the discussion, because few other "new guys" have the thick skin I do, and most are afraid to offer their "view from the outside".

I don't expect my point of view to be acted on, or even taken seriously, by the industry as a whole.
And I don't expect to be beaten up for it.

I don't want, or expect anything, from any of you, anymore...

This has been a colossal drain on my time, and my spirit.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go see what the mexicans bid on the job I looked at yesterday (and probably have the homeowner quiz me about how to tell if they are doing the job right).

I know plenty about competition! I'm tired of going backwards to compete, when I am good at what I do!
And I wish the local kids I taught to do it, WERE competing with me!
At least we'd be competing for an AMERICAN living wage.

I can't stay in this whirlpool much longer.

Krusty (not happy, no wave)

Robert,

I missed your post while writing my novella.

Your opinion, and that of everyone else, is totally welcome, that's why we joined this forum, right?

I haven't turned down work, only one of my steady customers knows of my NWCO, and most don't know I trap at all.
(*And usually it's better if they don't, remember trapping was "banned" by (misguided) voters here... people in Seattle/Tacoma decide "how it's going to be" for the whole State (by overwhelming majority)).
I could lose construction customers by admitting my bloodthirsty ways (hunting and trapping).

The one customer who knows of my NWCO asked if I could do work, but I told him, straight up, of my level of experience... and being a savvy businessman, he said "I'll let you practice for free."

But we all know it's not free, it would come at a loss to me, loss of otherwise billable time (I usually work T&M), and un-recovered costs of operation.

A starling hole we discussed, while I was repairing the roof, a month or more before I got my NWCO, was the "job" in question.

I live right smack in the middle of one of the ten biggest cities in the U.S.
Finding work isn't the problem, completing it, and more importantly the confidence to attempt doing the job at all, are what I lack.

Several months back, in writing the outline for Dave, I realized there were some big holes in my bag of tricks.
And until I could fix them, they might as well be big holes in my cage traps.

Trapping, is the foundation of NWCO work, and of the knowledge needed.

That's where I need to start.

It's impossible for a blind man to lead his guide.

I can't tell you what YOU could do to help, if I could, I probably wouldn't need it.

Krusty

Krusty-

All of us here are simply problem solvers. Sure we trap it and preventing a re-occurrance is equally part of the package. If you are licensed to operate in your city, county and state legally forget the image of our work being bloodthirsty killers. Again. We are problem solvers and operate within the laws of the land as they apply.

If your licensed and insured go ahead hang out your shingle. Trapping is not new to you; simply accept the jobs you are comfortable with. In time you will gain experience doing other new aspects of the industry. Never bite off more then you can chew. Be honest with your customers if your not sure let them know that you can "try". Your time is valuable no need to learn entirely free since you have your own associated costs.

Join a association like NWCOA or NPWMA . For example: NWCOA is I believe $65 a year and it includes a one year subscription to WCT magazine. Its not the only maghazine in the industry either . Got my copy of Wildlife Management Professional in the mail today. Kudos Jeff!!

We were all new once, we have all made mistakes and most of us still do. The trick is not to make the same mistake twice. LOL

LT Grey is very real and his phone number is real too. You will find him listed on The Wildlife Pro Directory in Ohio.

http://thewildlifepro.com/dir.html

I don't understand the conflict stuff and can assure you their are no conspiracies to step on KrustyKlimber any chance anyone gets going on here. I can't ever really think of anyone who has posted here to ever exhibit such behavior.


You need some help, pm me or call . If I don't have the answer I promise you I know who to get the answers from. But most of us do that anyway on this board. Without mentioning names I have many in The Wildlife Pro Network who offer mentoring.

As far as the training and spending money. How long would it take you working by yourself to gain the same knowledge of running around with 15-20 other ADC types learning and bringing their own experiences to the table for one week. If you learned one good technique, and used it for the next 20 years you would find the training priceless. Chances are you will come home with dozens of new ideas you will want to incorporate in your own business. The good thing is those other 15-20 guys will probably network with you in both help and lead production the rest of your time in wildlife control. Training is again: Priceless.

Robb,

I think you misunderstand me, I have a good base of construction and repair customers, some of whom might not continue to require my handyman services if they knew "I kill things" (hunting and fur trapping).

I'm not sure if the liability insurance I carry (bond), covers control work, but I know I am covered for the repair/exclusion part of it though (but only up to 1/4 million).

Once I have some teeth, I'll take your advice, and not bite off more than I can chew.
Until then, I'm not biting anything (trapping related).


LT Grey is not his real name... I can call myself Bob McGillicutty... doesn't make it true either.

And I was thankful for your listings, when he went "missing", I called all of the numbers you have listed trying to find out if he was okay, what flight, when I was supposed to be at the airport?
Nobody ever returned ANY of those messages.

So I, personally, am having a hard time believing in LT.

(*And I had left that whole week open, no work, so I could hang out with Dave and LT, at their convenience... that was for sure NOT a good investment in training!)


I never claimed there were conspiracies to "step on me", I claimed there are no conspiracies to HELP... Nick, or me, or any other "new guy".
Because there aren't.

And I dunno why you guys are mad at me for pointing it out?

Vinke tried to yank the rug out from under me, again... taking back his offer "to have coffee?" ...even though I was smart enough not to get caught standing on it (believing he ever really would help me), because of what I posted in this thread.

I've had enough of his hissy fits, and take backs.

He is, the boy who cried "I can help you"... all talk and no action.


It doesn't matter how good some training is, if I can't afford to take it, or apply it.

And with the "training" I have received in the past... that was supposed to prepare me, but did not... I am a little reluctant to believe your testimony. If I go you your school, will I even SEE a trap?
And too, the association I am part of now, the WSTA, leaves something to be desired, so I am not in a hurry to join another one.

All this, joining, and traveling, and training... seems like a lot to go through, just to see what the business looks like, BEFORE I make the decision whether or not to go into it (on my own).

Krusty

Krusty-

I don't have a school, nor am I paid to promote one I am just an advocate of training.

We all know LT Grey has a real name. Its his choice to remain anonymous not yours. I assure you - I am who I am! I am Popeye the Sailor Man. LOL

I think of this as a honorable profession. I have never trapped for fun or fur. I definitely take offense to any negative characterization of our industry.

Were problem solvers period.

I deal with tree huggers everyday in my work many of them refer me to their friends. I find most folks with animal conflicts have another tune when the animal is destroying their property or home. When asked I state "All my work is humane and according to the laws of my city, county and state".

Maybe you should think of yourself as something other then a Trapper then. You know Wildlife control, animal control or animal damage control something that paints a more positive picture for your clients about what you do!!

Trapper Robb and my public association with the name has actually worked for me!!



Good Luck to you!

Krusty.......Your statement is incorrect.....As a WA NWCO you are not allowed to use others to help (as per Carrol), not even my kids to help....Plus when You asked me I did not Know you! You were dirty looking and did not make a favorable impression.

TWO- The post that I edited were edited because you took them wrong

Three- You [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot] off LT;;;;

Four- I never asked for your Help with ANYTHING!!!!!!!

Five- I don't need you assistance in ANYTHING

Six- I gave you a second change and you neglected to act on it

Seven- I am glad you didn't

Robb,

Right now, I can only portray what I am... I am what I am, and that's all what I am.

I didn't mean to say "it's best if my customers don't know I am a WCO", it's best that some of them don't know I hunt and trap (for fun and fur).

All of my hunting and trapping methods, are humane, and are done according to the law... but people in this state believe they made ALL trapping illegal (unless done by a State agency), and it makes some of them very mad to find out it was not.

I agree, WHEN the time comes, the attitudes of the people I'd not share my personal life with will indeed change.
Until then, I'd rather not put my wage earning power at risk, by discussing MY HOBBIES which they might find objectionable.

I was once let go, on a fencing job, because I offered to come and shoot all the bunnies I thought I was fencing out... turns out I was fencing out the coyotes, the garden was FOR the rabbits.

The "bloodthirsty" comment was sarcastic, and directed at nobody but myself.
My niece, the vegetarian, called me it when I arrived with a prime rib roast, so it was stuck in my vocabulary.

Maybe YOU should think of me, NOT selling myself as a trapper, or a WCO, or anything else...

I got some plum trees to prune, a bathroom to build in a shop, I have to replace a pump house and pour a concrete pad around the well head, and a few more jobs lined up... none of them involves traps or wild animals.

Krusty

Krusty-

The temptation to quit will be greatest just before you are about to succeed."

Robb,

You mean it could get worse... part of me still wants to do it.

Krusty

Here is some info on the upcoming WCT / NWCOA conference. I was contacted about doing a presentation on boom lifts and scissors lifts for WCO work, but it's on my birthday and the family has some special plans. I'll be half-way to a hundred......

http://www.wctech.com/7thsem.htm

And YES... it contains TRAPPING info with a wide variety of equipment!

Vinke,

One- So... when LT rode around with you, he was licensed as an NWCO in Washington?
Sean told me, it was only PAID employees that must be licensed, just like it says in the training materials from the NCWO course.

I wanted to make sure it was legal for me to go with my Dad, in his truck.

Two- You weren't real clean, that day, yourself, hadn't you spent some time under the hood of your beater truck, tired, etc?
I came from work to be at that meeting... I didn't think a trapper's assoc meeting was a fashion show?

Nope, I ain't pretty... but how shallow to hold that against a guy, it's not like I wanted a job, or a kiss.

Three- I still don't understand what I did to make LT mad, he's a big boy, he should get over it... I did, and I thought he did too?
Why can't you?

Four- Just because you didn't ask me personally, doesn't mean you didn't ask for input... on the outline, the bat guano, and other things, I DID try to help with.
I responded as a fellow member of this site and the WSTA, because I could help, and for no other reason.

You don't owe me anything.

Five- You may not need my assistance, but if I can I will offer it, it's part of my nature to turn the other cheek, and try to do the right thing.

If that ever changes, and you need something, don't hesitate to ask.
I'm a better man than that, I never turn down someone who needs my help.
I can be mad later (or not), after they are okay.

Six- Your "chances" are a bunch of baloney!
I was trying to be polite, but I don't want anything from you... that's why I didn't bother to meet you for coffee, or contact you about doing "sub-contract" work for you.

Krusty

Just wanted you to know those words came from our favorite "Proud Yankee Slime".

I would want all the business Vinke could send me and then even more. I would also be sending all the wildlife control opportunities you choose not to do his way. You should be networking here and not in little scrimmages online. That is why I used the earlier in this post.

Maybe getting hired on by a established firm will address many of your concerns. I have been lead to believe you have strong construction skills and some trapping experience and dependent upon your personal communication skills, personality and appearance you may prove to be asset to most any wildlife or pest control company .

Robb,

Dude...

I am not convinced Vinke had any work for me, or ever would in the future.
He might be your favorite, but he's not mine.

Did he ever answer your question about who (in Fla) made the otter trap?

Krusty

Well, in reading through all of this "High School Drama" and trying to weed through the junk to get some usefull information, 2 things are blatently clear.

1. Whatever the original intent of this thread was, is totally lost in the junk that followed

2. KrustyKlimbers worst enemy is himself, nobody else.

If I may offer a little reading for Krusty. Go to any book store in your area and pick up a copy of "Psycho-Cybernectis" by Maxwell Maltz. From reading your many posts, you are lacking in the MOST important aspect of life and any business, SELF-CONFIDENCE and a positive attitude. If you do not beleive in yourself enough to get this off the ground, everything everybody is offering you is a moot point.
I call it like I see it, and from what I see, you need to suck it up and quit whining and finding every possible excuse or possible problem that might get in the way. [Please excuse my language... I'm an idiot], if you want everything laid out perfectly, you are in the wrong business.

Frozentoes,

I agree with you, the point of this thread has nearly been lost... try just reading the first page.

And I agree with you, that in this field, I am lacking the self confidence I would need to make a go of it.
But nobody but me, knows if that's pessimism, or realism!

I've been backed into a corner, and even I don't recognize the person that is now fighting his way out.

The original intent of this thread wasn't "let's offer Krusty help", and that's not why I posted my points of view.

You are also right, in that offering me anything to use in business, is moot... as I don't currently plan on going into business for myself!
So quit beating a dead horse!

I already sucked it up, and made a decision, as to whether or not to continue trapping... no whining involved.
I sat down with my ledger book, crunched up some numbers, and felt sick to my stomach... the REAL ME, had a buncha fun trappin' beavers, but the me I have become in this thread regrets having blown so much of my savings doing it.

Following Ron's good advice, I am going to fill in that hole, and build up a little pile again, before I think about digging another one.
And the real me, with probably man up and give it my best shot (when I am ready), just like I always do.

IF YOU HEAR A WHINE, YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR COMPUTER LOOKED AT!

I never asked for everything laid out for ME, but SEEING A TRAP, might be a good thing to have happen in trapper training or NCWO certification courses, no?
And apprenticeship programs at the local level won't hurt.
Doing away with the barriers between "us" and "them" that alienate people might be a good thing...
And cooperating for the good of all, would probably be, good for all.

I am not in the WCO business, and I don't want to be, anymore.

Not meeting me and hanging out together, was LT and Vinke's loss, too.

I'm a good person, a good friend, an honest, hardworking, overgrown boy scout.
I don't have a problem with the man I see in the mirror, and I don't have trouble sleeping at night, even though I have hit some bumps along my way.

Krusty

Frozentoes,I agree with you, What Is this thred all about anyway? Is It just a pizzing match? I think krusty needs some cheese to go with his whine.I know It Is none of my business to butt In on this so called discussion but I just had to put my
2cents worth In To It.I am new to this business too,I started out with very little knowlege of ADC trapping and very little help from anyone. I learned as I went along with the help of the people from the NWCOA forum.It started out slow as I learned more each year to the point that going Into our 4th year my son quit his full time job to do this full time.My point being, You
don't need help from people who may not want to give It to you. Start off slow and get all the training you can and learn as you go. Join NWCOA and get all the Info you need on there forum, It Is well worth the $100.

This was started in the hope that the INDUSTRY could learn What type of training was wanted or needed to KEEP younger people IN this field!
We have a growing industry but the people that do the WORK are getting older and for the INDUSTRY to continue it needs well trained YOUNGER people involved.
bob evans cwcp

Sorry Robert..........I should have kept my mouth (finger)shut.....

These things go the way they go!Now let's try this again I'd like to know were we can honestly help get these people started right?
I'm not the guy to tell anyone one how to get everything done and done right,the rest of you have more experiance and are better business people.
SO LET"S DO THIS!
bob evans cwcp

I hate losing a debate on the "neener neener, you're a big baby!" clause.
I wonder if that ever happens to the Harvard debate team?

At least I'm smart enough to see what this thread is about.

It is partly a peeing match, but, that's a small part of it... considering the weight of the real problems facing "the industry" and those starting out in it.

I really appreciate the pm's offering help, support, and encouragement.
It's good to know, not all of you share a singular opinion of me.

No way would I tuck tail and walk away from my membership on this site... over this.

I been right before, and I been wrong, neither one killed me.

Krusty

I can't seem to get by the part about this being directed at one person,my post as stated from the start was an open dialog to try and help people who wish to go into this. I've looked at the wildlife hand book (just a few paragrafs) and as with most academia it's not real world help (my opinion).
Here we deal in real wildlife problems and the fastest and most cost productive methods of solving them.
So let's try to get this on the right road?
bob evans cwcp

robert i see the same thing age wise posted a thread about it on another site it seems to me that most wco's are older from what i see in my area is most young people my age aren't willing to take the chance of walking away from that steady paycheck as it seems most want to live well beyond their means or they just plain don't want to work period as it's slow here right now due to cold and snow i'm working for a roofing contractor installing polyslate tile he can't hardly find anyone to work that i'sant on drugs or just plain won't show up i think now days people are so far removed from nature that they have no interest in wildlife control working 9-5 and sitting watching tv or playing video games seems to be the norm for many my age nowdays

You may be right ? It took me a long time to go full time and then I had an income so it was time to do something that was enjoyable.
The drugs effect every industry with ours if you want get high just go to work no DRUGS needed!
Drunks and addicts wouldn't last on this job!
bob evans

i'm still working my way to full time been doing this for 5-6 years but it's just been the last 2 that i've gotten serious about doing it full time there are times when i don't think things are moving fast enough but when i sit and look at how my work has been increasing i feel maybe i'm just a little impaitent lol my plan is one more year of a job plus this and then full time i have a lot to get in order between now and then but to use a quote from clint locklear" i will not fail"

Coonwild,Sounds like your BUILDING a good solid business.Having a plan than sticking too it is very good business.By now you know what your area needs and the services that pay the best.
I started just to have work to do with no plan and NO Idea were I wanted to go!Today it is easier to see were this is going,with the change in peoples attatude toward wildlife.
We have become a vital link in protecting property and agriculture from wildlife harm.
Not only is it nessasary but can be very profitable?
The future can only get better for people in our field.
bob evans cwcp