I wish Wildlife Services would end and private WCO industry was made available to those employees or vice-versa. Come join us Wildlife Services!

In reading through posts since I've joined recently, I've noticed many arguments supporting or not supporting USDA's Wildlife Services. As an American Tax Paying Entrepreneur (ATPE), I absolutely do not support Wildlife Services; however that is not the point in this post. This post is to incite discussion and critical thought into wildlife Services Employees, and any others that may be interested. Come join us Wildlife Services!!

One of the main arguments used to support the continuation of WS is; if WS was abolished than competition from ex-WS employees would be direct and unbearable, alluding to the private WCO industry would suffer. I whole-heartily disagree, This is what the industry needs. Competition, is good for industry and the end consumer, by improving standards and decreasing consumer costs. The other industries that also benefit are of course those who receive quality service, but also those that support the WCOs, such as tool manufacturers, gas stations, advertisers, banks, etc... Not only does competition support private industry but it supports a tax base that should be used to strengthen American Infrastructure. And of course their would be the tax savings to us, Americans. Come join us Wildlife Services!!!

Another argument supporting Wildlife Services is that WS provides a service the private WCO sector either doesn't want to do or that the private sector doesn't have the ability to do it. Again, as an ATPE, I whole-heartily disagree, As my business grows, I provide a wider variety of services and take on a wider variety of jobs. I am quit capable and willing to provide these services for those willing to pay. If there are jobs to big for my current business infrastructure than there is always the bank, and (dare I say) other employees or business partners. Perhaps if there were more professionals in the private WCO industry the ability to do larger and more complicated jobs would be even more readily available. Come join us WS!!!

Yet another argument supporting WS, is that they have the legal authority to do the work they do. Again I disagree, It's a terribly outdated law, our Nation's current physical infrastructure and technology make it so! Additionally, the "exemptions" to other laws are bad for the WCO industry and the Nation. All professional WCOs should have the same laws governing them, that's why laws are made! When competition doesn't improve industry standards, laws are made to regulate standards, yet not having to follow those laws only devalues the standards involved. Here in NV, total lack of industry standards is demonstrated by WS. Let's improve those standards for the entire industry. Come join us WS!!!!

This should get the discussion, and most importantly the critical thought going.

Feel free to send it to all the WS employees you know. Lets get them all to join us!

We've had this discussion over and over again. An intelligent proposal cannot easily be reached. I am not going to patrol hundreds of miles of trout stream looking for beaver dams and neither are you. The only one who does this is doing it! That's WS. I really don't care how much it's costing the taxpayer. At least a couple of trout fishermen are enjoying themselves.

How many of you are reaping the benefits of being in a place like Afghanistan, that we have no business in and is costing us billions? No one! When you get this country to stop throwing away billions on complete insanity, then come and talk to me about throwing away millions on farmers and sportsmen. I will listen.

I do but they are a hand dug ditches that the schools planted salmon in over the years (50 plus),,,,now they are salmon stream,,,, and regulations imposed........

An intelligent proposal is not always easy, neither is running a business at times. Why wouldn't you patrol hundreds of miles of trout stream for pay? I would love to patrol those streams and often do, it's where some of the best wildlife opportunities are. If private industry could get paid to do it than I believe that would be spectacular.

By the way, I don't think beaver dams are very difficult to locate, especially if they are at such a density as to be causing trouble for the trout fisheries. All you've got to do is go look or just ask a trout fisherman (or a skilled beaver trapper). Why do you say WS are the only ones who can patrol trout streams for beaver dams?

I am an agriculture producer and a sportsman who is just trying to stop the wasteful spending of our tax dollars. I'll need your help though Paul, this is going to take more than just me. I haven't read any of the previous discussions that you all have had over and over again, what is your idea of an intelligent proposal? Are you sure you don't care what it costs the taxpayer??????

NV Man,

As a rule govt. employees are not going to engage in discussing anything of this sort on a public forum.

This forum is for ADC private industry folks and so about the only thing this thread will serve to do is to
rehash the dozens and dozens of threads that have been posted about govt. competition with private industry.

If you've read the archives I'd imagine that you saw that this has pretty much been "asked and answered"
and debated endlessly.

I'm thankful that I have some friends and colleagues who I haven't even met but that hashed all this out
over the last many years and ultimately this comes down to a pretty simple few things...

1) If you desire WS to be limited from their current mission, you must work to remove the congressional act
that currently stands and will stand until modified or changed.

2) You and anyone else can walk into your local WS district office or state office and discuss the problems you
are having face to face with a supervisor or state director at any time.

3) WS is cooperatively funded, they aren't funded only through federal tax money, they are funded by cooperative
funding through producer head taxes in some western states, through local county budgets to sustain programs to
alleviate wildlife damage during lambing and calving seasons and so forth. Most govt. programs are fully funded by
your tax dollars and have massive massive budgets that exceed the entire WS budget from top to bottom by 5-10 times.

4) There are many agencies that hire WS who will not hire a private company because that private company lacks a
credential, training, policy manual or other that WS has. I've had conversations as a private guy with state agency staffers
from other states that I have NWCO colleagues in doing work, that tell me that they are thrilled with the work being done
by WS and that they wouldn't change using them and if they didn't exist anymore, they would likely have to find a way internally
to do the work (this doesn't result in hiring a private NWCO).

**

You are in NV, we can see that by your tagline, you mention you are a producer and a sportsman, do you run a private wildlife
control company for profit? I'm asking just because it adds to the discussion to know something about the poster.

Since you are fairly new to this forum I'll tell you what others know, I worked for WS for 10 years, in wildlife disease management,
invasive species management and a variety of other programs in several states. I decided a couple of years ago that I wanted
to finally start my own company after years of not being at the right time. I run a private wildlife control and consulting company
here in NM and I have absolutely zero competition from WS.

I do know folks I consider friends who do have legitimate complaints and I've also passed on complaints to folks I know within WS
to be sure they understand that there are impacts and overlap.

Do you currently have a competition problem with your business and WS employees in your state?

What have you done to discuss this locally with WS or your G&F agency to get a positive resolution?

My old boss was very detailed about referring folks to call private NWCO's, it is something too many of the supervisors I've worked for do
as part of daily business.

Example, public calls and says "I need someone to take care of pigeon issues at X"

Response from my old boss here in NM "There are numerous local companies you can find online and in the phone book that can and do
provide services."

Result, they call a local company such as mine or yours or someone else....

No competition in that scenario.

**
So help me out if we are going to debate, where are you coming from on this, just a concerned taxpayer, or a wildlife control outfit with specific issues you've had with WS in your daily business?

Thanks,

Justin

HD,

Where I am coming from...

I own and operate a company that does wildlife control (and resource improvements and ag production) all by legal means, I'm licensed (city, county, state (2), and federal) and insured (almost beyond reason). I'm educated and experienced in wildlife, natural resources, and livestock. I also used to work for Wildlife Services as a field tech/trapper, biologist, airport biologist, and assistant district supervisor, but because the agency here in NV operates in violation of so many laws including their own cooperative service agreements (essentially the congressional act you mentioned above), I quit for the sake of my ethics and well being.

I am fully aware of the wildlife control market (for lack of a better term), the politics involved with wildlife services and other agencies in NV and am as active as my time allows. Both district supervisors, the state director, region, WS national, OIG, USFWS, USDA Investigations and Compliance, and NV's AG are aware of the scenario here in NV. I could post documentation of the claims I make, but I think I've seen a previous post from you referring to good PR for the industry of which (we) private WCOs are part. Anyhow, I agree that we as an industry need to keep good PR, so I won't bother with the pictures and other documentation of the bad stuff on this forum.

I live in rural NV and pay head tax, predator control fee, county taxes, state taxes, and federal taxes. About the only funds that I don't pay into that WS operates on here are BLM 801 funds that are spent on WS from the grazing boards. So yes, I'm a concerned taxpayer.

I'm licensed and insured in providing the services that primarily ranchers want for livestock protection. I am licensed and insured in the wildlife protection work that the state Department of Wildlife wants. I'm familiar with the disease work as well, of which there isn't a license requirement. I am willing and able to provide these services. Yes there is competition and overlap. However, I also provide more comprehensive, and effective services than WS to many of the same people they "cooperate" with.

I'm familiar with many of the state laws relating to wildlife and agriculture. I'm also familiar with WS policy and a few federal laws and legal requirements. WS is in violation of so many, they are outside of their own mission, and a prime target for anti's looking to change the entire industry. There is much legal concern with WS in NV, and as I am in the same industry I am very concerned. I also think everyone else in the industry should be concerned.

I think that covers quit a bit (not all) of where I'm coming from and responds to 3 of the 4 points you've numbered.

Your 4th point is interesting, however that is not the case here in NV. Politics of the situation here limit work availability for WCOs here in NV not because we aren't qualified, but because WS is forced upon the government agencies.


Where I want to go....

I think a reasonable solution to the problems created by ws is to have them all absorbed by private industry, here's why;

Competition will sort out the best. The folks that are apparently qualified because they're in WS, would still be qualified, they will just be required to produce under the same circumstances (laws, return on investments, etc..) as the rest of the industry. The average quality of WCO services in NV would either improve or the industry would essentially perish.

Markets and results will drive and direct the industry, not a state director in the pocket of a sheep man.

Businesses could grow and contribute more to society. The very few truly skilled and motivated ws employees could join or start these businesses. To fear competition is bad for business and those that do will not grow and may not last in the business world. Business is not about getting rich, although it can be a pleasant result. Business is about providing goods or services to society that people are willing to pay for, basic supply and demand.

And of course, my company could have more opportunity to grow. For example, If I wouldn't have as much difficulty competing with an agency that claims it only costs the cooperator $70/hr for an airplane, a truck, and three employees, I could have an opportunity to charge a fair cost to provide truly cost effective services, and a business deal could be reached.


So now that we might be debating?...

Why wouldn't you want WS to be absorbed into private industry? or Why shouldn't ws be absorbed into private industry?

One logical and enlightening explanation I've heard from another WCO was that because ws does such a poor job, both literally and politically in NV, that their business is getting more support.

Now my fingers are cramping from too much typing... (but looking forward to your response).

NV, that was a very intelligent post. I, for one, appreciate you taking the time to post it.

I agree with Paul nice post NV.

NV, I couldn't agree more.

NV Man,

Thanks for taking the time to reply, in NV I can see that you are in a solid position to make an assessment of how this effects the WCO. You hit on some excellent points that I can see driving where you are wanting to go in terms of this issue. I assume based on your career with WS and the positions you held that you likely spent at least 5-10 or more years with them unless timing of folks leaving jobs opened things up quicker and you had the skills to step in, which happens. Many folks that comment on WS haven't worked for them and though they have met employees or upper management before and have an impression, it matters more to me that folks understand how this outfit runs and how it doesn't.

I think ultimately the only two issues I can debate you on or would take any issue with would be.

1) The word "absorbed" to me doesn't capture what this would entail. The private industry may see WS folks in their ranks if the agency dissolves, though many employees will likely go to other state and federal wildlife agencies or other types of consulting and management within the wildlife field.

The word absorb would suggest that someone like say a national wildlife control franchise, goes to WS and says, "hey, I'd like to add the bulk of your staff to my company at X dollars per hour and so forth. To me that is not a word that is appropriate.

What would be appropriate to say is that you would like to see WS folks leave the govt. positions they hold some for entire careers and go out and hang a shingle to compete against you and I and others in the private industry at a level playing field.

To some this might seem like I'm picking at little things, but to me the word suggests a happy world where everyone has a job and no one is put on the firing line, simply because they didn't see the WCO industry coming along at such a rapid pace.

2) I have encouraged friends and colleagues in WS to leave and start their own company. Not so I don't have them in the agency, but because for most of them they would make more money, be able to better care for their families and follow their own policies and a number of other reasons.

3) Though again this might be picking, I've worked with WS full time 10 years and was based in OR, NM, MI and conducted field programs for a variety of things in TX, PA, WI, MN, AK, WA, CA.

Though I've run across folks just catching a paycheck as you will find in any outfit, they are the extreme rare breed and don't tend to last long because as you well know if you aren't producing results it shows in most of this field.

The 99.9% of the folks I've worked with I'd gladly carry water for, men, women, young and old. They are some of the hardest working people I've ever seen and they do it at the field level and biologist level for funds that do not carry over to the workload.

This is factual. As you know and pointed out, they are offering services at a lower level than we can for the same service due to a variety of factors. Cooperative funding, federal funding and special project funding. Though I've not witnessed a helicopter being offered for less than $500.00 an hour myself and that is a recent number, but I understand you are saying to run an employee with a truck for them is not what it is for you or I.

This is 100% true. They are cheaper and that can be a place where conflict can and does happen.

What I have seen though especially here in NM is in the last several years a focus has been put on this issue from upper management to assure that folks are passing calls to WCO's.

Now, if we are talking depredation management that won't be the case as this is the largest part of western states funding as you know.

But I myself and many other WCO's are more focused on urban/suburban problems that can produce a living. However I know many who do run full time predator removal programs and have within WS states without being burdened by the competition. Though many I know have gone to work for WS after a few years because it was more steady and included other benefits to them and they still are offering the same knowledge and skills they brought to their private clients.

****

Ultimately this is something that deserves more light, but I think it should be made clear as well that many state and federal agencies aren't looking for other help. They like the work they get from WS and they are accustomed to it. Though in NV there may be some rule that is tying things up, as you know the WS program is not regulatory, though they assist USFWS with waterfowl forms and such, they are otherwise following the needs and requests they get.

****

The biggest flaw in logic in terms of wanting them all on the even playing field is this (and I'm sure you know this well).

Every employee knows the county commissioners, the ranchers, the local community members because they live there, work there, raise their kids there, etc... Some might move away and go work elsewhere doing something else, but most have strong ties that aren't broken just because they don't work for WS anymore.

On a daily basis many of these guys are offered full time jobs by their cooperators to just care for their ranch or their property. If they are laid off or let go because of a massive WS change, the easiest thing they can do is start the phone ringing and stop by the local diner to shake a few hands, let everyone know they are freelance and away we go....

This is because unless they are less than 6 mos. on the job, they know that they are expected to provide updates to any/all cooperators on a daily, weekly, monthly and yearly basis and these forums mean in small rural country they are well known.

Likewise those who do airport work or other things can just as easily become a "wildlifeus" on this forum and be doing their own airports because they were just there on Friday, why not hire them back on Monday.

Same for the county beaver guys in the southeastern United States, most of them worked for the county or most of the landowners before getting the job, take the agency away, the guy is right there back in the ditches on Monday.

****

Now I'll close this part off by stating, thank you again because you wrote clearly and stated your issues very clearly.

I appreciate any debate or discussion of this issue that doesn't involve berating as to change an agencies policy or alter their
mission if thats what folks desire, does not have to take place where personal attacks are going against the employees in the field
or any member of management below the agency directors. These folks are paid to address concerns like this and deal with
politics, the guys in the field are not beyond their own area of operation.

This issue is one that could be helped by more folks participating in NWCOA and being a part of the committee that is working
on this issue. NWCOA has met with senior management on this issue and will continue to do so, folks should consider that being
part of a larger voice much like NPMA has proven to the pest management industry can be a very good way to get things moving.

Without folks committed as a group, there are very few folks who are going to listen to a few operators unless they are particular
individuals with the ability to effectively communicate and to make the time to meet with a variety of politicians to try to move the
ball.

***

I'll leave it there, too much work this week, but hope this dialogue continues in a positive vein...

Justin

In case any of you wonder why I consider Justin a friend, it's quite simple. He is the voice of sanity. He left WS after having a good experience and he is not afraid to tell any of us that he enjoyed his employment with a government entity.

As an employee in many states, he has insight to some of the wildlife issues that we don't. ( And probably wish we had ) I feel very privileged to be able to discuss the pros and cons of any issue that we feel is important and I thank Paul and Trapperman for it being so!

Okay, enough of the tear jerkers. Just watch my next post.

Paul,

Thank for you for the kind words, I am very opinionated as you know, but other than maybe one or two issues that have gotten me sideways with a good number on this forum, I also try to be someone who shares and participates in the discussions in a positive way.

Though voice of sanity might be something you should ask my wife about first!

HD,

Ok, I see where you might be coming from on my use of the word "absorbed". Basically I want ws to essentially end, and the employees could then choose to do what they want, weather it be construction or continue in the field of wildlife. Heck, I wouldn't mind hiring one or two, and think I would be able to if ws wasn't competing with me.

I'm glad you encourage many current ws employees to start a career in the private industry. I believe they would be able to contribute more to themselves and to society as a whole. Keep up the good work! Come and join us Wildlife Services.

Your point about suburban wildlife issues providing a living is noted and a common perception. Likewise, Rural communities often lack this ability in perception. However, in the field of wildlife conflicts in western states there are many financial resources that could be used to provide a very decent living. There is the potential for ag producers to pay fair market value and hence support rural jobs in the field of WCO. For example, most ranchers that use ws (subsidy) are wealthy; often in cash and land. They may claim they couldn't afford a private WCO, but I believe this is because they don't want to do what it takes, many are disgusted with the amount of taxes they pay and feel they deserve the ws subsidy, weather it does any good or not. (on a nicer note, some ranchers are even pushing back against these taxes because the see no results from ws)

There are also sportsmen's dollars that would also be available to support the rural WCO. In NV we have a $3 predator control fee for every big game application. What a great resource to provide a living to the rural WCO, at a cost saving to the sportsmen.

I completely disagree that ws does any work cheaper than private industry. They may only charge $70/hr for an airplane, truck, and 3 employees, but it costs us (the taxpayers) the remainder.

Gotta go work, but I will continue the discussion as time allows...

Once again NV, a very intelligent post. My favorite part is the line about, "most ranchers that us ws are wealthy". Well yeah, how do think they got that way? My first job was for Senator Herb Kohl. He owns the Milwaukee Bucks and if I remember correctly, is the largest private landowner in the state of Wyoming. Life might not be fair, but do you want to bet that I'm enjoying life more than Mr. Kohl?

In continuation from my last post....

It is of no concern that ws employees know the community. Many businesses know the community. If anything it helps in customer service. So I guess I don't know where the flaw in logic is...

Another point I would make is that I believe many ws employee are just catching a pay check and retirement and health insurance and a vehicle to drive around in. In nv there is no incentive for ws to provide a cost effective service so there is no incentive to do a good job. Federal funds just keep rolling in, no matter what happens. Just keep one politically endowed sheep man happy and state funds also keep rolling in.

Now as far as Paul's question, I think many land owners have become weathly from the efforts of their parents, few by their own hard work, and a growing number who take advantage of the system/ government subsidies...

Let's shed some light on the legislation from 1931 that supposedly enables ws to provide services. The legislation is outdated and based on an America that had a much limited infrastructure (transportation) and much less technology (refrigerated trucks, sample analysis, data base capabilities, etc...). Today our country is amazing. A professional could fly from California to New York in hours. Data can be transmitted around the world in a millisecond and services that we're unavailable in 1931 are readily available today. These are some of the reasons the 1931 legislation is outdated, and should be removed. Another reason is the inefficiency of the USDA WS is a tax burden that needs to be removed from the tax payers.

NV could never be involved in politics. He makes way too much sense.

Ill agree with that.Sorry NV hope ya wasnt running for office.LOL!!!!!!!

Lol... I've actually thought about running for office. However, I can not allow myself to stand for nonsense. I also do not understand how others allow themselves to allow nonsense. So I guess I would not make a good politician or for that matter a government employee! ...

HD made the point that government employees aren't going to discuss posts like this one? I would agree with him, but Why wouldn't they? Critical thought and discussion are some of the best tools humans have that allow us to learn. These tools are critical in our social structure and our interactions, which help us advance as a society. Of course ws maintains policy that condemns discussion on a post like this...

Conversely, why prevent ws employees from providing potentially valuable input into this discussion? Why not help advance society. If what I say above is true, than are uneducated employees considered a good thing in ws? Perhaps they are easier to manipulate and control?

I encourage ws employees to join this discussion. Perhaps, myself and others would also learn and benefit from their input and contribution. This would help in the advancement of our industry and society. If ws employees think they can't discuss this than I encourage them to join private industry and join this sector in society.

Discussion encouraged,

Perhaps another reason to join private industry??

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014...;utm_medium=RSS

Or perhaps ws employees can excuse this type of behavior....