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#439766 - 12/01/07 06:56 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: pass-thru]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5959
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Doesn't anyone, even the pros in this thread have any comments on what my Dad had to say about the relationship between set visibility and large backings?????????????????Ace

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#440075 - 12/01/07 09:34 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
CharlesKS Offline


Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 11447
Loc: Kansas,32,6-1,220,B/B NS
 Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
Doesn't anyone, even the pros in this thread have any comments on what my Dad had to say about the relationship between set visibility and large backings?????????????????Ace


if i respond to this, are you going to call me a fool to becasue i have a different experiance?

if i set all my sets in the open, like allready said, theyd get run over, seen by deer hunters, etc. i cant see evidence of coyotes not wanting to work a set if they cant see 30 feetin every direction.

i just cant help but think alot of GRAET set locations would be passed by. In an effort to save TIME, which is important to me and many others, i just cant spend 10 minutes walking around trying to find the PERFECT spot that fits all the criteria your dad described. I KNOW im not catching every single coyote. I dont NEED to, im fur trapping, as a hobby. I also dont quite believe i can catch EVERY SINGLE ONE. ive had places ive pulled 15 coyyotes of a small bit of cover or whatever, go back 3 weeks later to cat trap, and theres new tracks.

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#440198 - 12/01/07 10:29 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: CharlesKS]
k9. Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3740
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
"Now why in blank would coyotes always accept sets out in the open and more often not commit to sets with large backings when the same lures were used over and over and over in years of testing? Please tell me how lures could possibly come into play here? You know as well as myself and every intelligent trapper on here can clearly see you sent up a combination smoke screen, twisted the subject and managed to get in a blow below the belt all at the same time. Very skillful I must say but not what one might expect from an officer of the law. I have even had trappers e-mail me sharing the same setiments about your questioable character. Ace"

Wow you are really giving me credit for being far more intelligent than I am, as far as this smoke screen, twisting the subject, below the belt stuff goes.

It is interesting to me that Charles can comment on your lure ingrediants making for a "wary" response and nothing happens. However when I comment on it, and qualify it by saying I donot believe it to be the case, and some deep seated conspiracy exists to somehow damage you.

The point is really not about your lures at all, which I imagine ARE OF EXCELLENT QUALITY. The point is you contradict yourself when you face a common sense response to your wary coyote theory, when you start comparing a coyote naturally chasing or hunting a rabbit in such an environment, but becoming wary at unnatural lure smells. I'm sorry it's a contradiction, it's your contradiction not mine.

I am glad you are getting warm hugs via email to make you feel better. I am not out to make you feel bad, but you do not seem equipped to handle any scrutiny.

Your quesiton to me about coyotes accepting sets in the open, compared to up against cover, high banks, or whatever is easy for me to reply to. I know other trappers personally, and have also read or seen videos by other trappers who I do not know personally, who are with a great degree of consistency catching coyotes contrary to your information. Not only in the past, but they are doing it NOW. Some of these guys are some of the best coyote trappers around. I am not as good a coyote trapper as some of those guys, but I myself have gone out and proven to myself that these are acceptable set locations.

Your advice runs contrary to those peoples experience. That does not make you a bad person. When I assess the information, I wonder what the difference is, and also what the consistency is in each scenario. To me a coyote is a coyote, so the behavior should be consistent nationwide. I know we disagree on this, but I am talking about how I draw MY conclusions, not yours.

I know that a high bank is a high bank, and high cover is high cover, whether it is in Iowa, Kansas, or Michigan. So that is consisent nationwide.

I know that numbers of successful trappers consistently catch coyotes against or by such cover. The only trapper I personally hear talking contrary to this has been you.

I read your father's information. I am being careful here because I have no doubt that your father was a fine man, worthy of a LOT of respect. I am also sure that his teachings and writings had a lot of influence on you.

So I have one guy saying he feels coyotes get wary approaching areas of high cover, and I see lots of others who successfully prove that theory wrong.

I am left to conclude that the observer (YOU) had preconcieved ideas about what should happen and has become close minded to anything else.

You give lot's of advice and I am not saying people should not take it. I am saying that all options should be considered in a common sense way by each trapper and carried on his or her line with them, to use how they see fit. People should look at both extremes in an issue, then find some middle ground that suits them.

You have a lot of trappers on here with varying experience, some much better coyote trappers than me. You just can't make blanket statements about coyote behavior without getting the flipside of the issue represented.
_________________________

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#440232 - 12/01/07 10:51 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: ]
k9. Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 3740
Loc: Brooklyn, Iowa 45 years old st...
Also Asa have your email warm fuzzies look at my first post. I was responding with my beliefs and directing nothing at you. I only directed comments to you when you started quoting me. I am sorry you are personalizing my every comment. I would suggest if you cannot handle such debate you just stop trying to engage me in such discussions. I do not follow the "Thou Shalt not question Asa" part of the rules. The thing is, some of the things you are putting out there should be questioned if you are saying it is the ONLY way.

I have nothing to sell. My motivation is only worthwhile coyote discussion and information.
_________________________

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#440247 - 12/01/07 11:07 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: k9.]
yotes4ever Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 22
Loc: rockwood, mi.
I think if nothing else if a fox or coyote can see the set from more directions I would want low backing.I wouldnt want them to walk right by on the wrong side and never know it was there

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#440414 - 12/02/07 07:39 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: yotes4ever]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5959
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Thanks for a straight forward comment yotes4ever, I agree that your comment is common sense. Straight forward, honest comments sure beat long winded, twisted pages of diatribe. Ace

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#440436 - 12/02/07 08:02 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: yotes4ever]
Jonathan Offline
"Wilson"

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7900
Loc: Northwestern New York(Elder)
When trap placement and "visibility" factors in relationship to the set location for canines are discussed, there is one common denominator generated in the opinion gardens: Each trapper has determined what works for them in their respective geography. And, that is based on their respective experience through training, observation and adaptation for the best methods to harvest canines where they trap. Nothing more.

There is a wide distribution of canines across this continent. Each species has managed to adapt itself to an immense diversity of habitat and topography - from deserts to mountains. That in itself is impressive when all things are considered. And, the trapping effort simply corresponds to the habits and behaviors of those respective territories and the animal's life cycle.

The difference between the differences are spelled in the comments solicited. I am not aware of a trapping "bible" - old, or new testament, that has only one interpretation of the "word" on how to trap canines. There are different recipes on how to do things for everything on the planet - this one included. Interestingly enough, the results are basically the same no matter how the cooks "work" in their own kitchens!

Topics of this nature are valuable and worthy of discussion to demonstrate what works for individuals in different parts of the country, but they are not worth bickering over. What is where you are, just is. The options donated through those opinions can be digested and tried by those who are new or inexperienced at canine trapping to experiment from those classroom notes and applying them to their circumstances.

Jonathan
_________________________
Jonathan
Basic Camera Gear: Canon EOS 50D with Canon EF 10-20mm, EF 28-135mm and EF 100-400mm lenses; Dutch Hill tripod with Wimberly Gimbal head.



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#440460 - 12/02/07 08:20 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Jonathan]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5959
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Now Jonathan, you know I respect you and your opinions but all aspects and factors of trapping techniques do not change with geographical locations. For example, set location, set visibility and eye appeal and utilizing the prevailing wind direction to one's advantage are universal. As my Dad pointed out in the excerpt I copied and pasted from one of his booklets, even if placing a set up againse a large obstruction of view had no bearing on the outcome of the set for that reason the large backing/obstruction would still obstruct good set visibility and whatever eye appeal one may be able to add to the set. In the long run this would diminish one's total harvest. That is just commons universal sense in my opinion!
Thank you for your input Jonathan! Ace

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#440513 - 12/02/07 09:11 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
trapper72 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 1493
Loc: NY
Thanks to all for the comments, I plan on trapping coyotes soon, a first for me.

Asa, I know what your getting at, take everything a location has to offer and work it towards your advantage, working around a few BASIC guidelines.
_________________________
~Another sig that had served it's purpose~

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#440517 - 12/02/07 09:13 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Jonathan Offline
"Wilson"

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 7900
Loc: Northwestern New York(Elder)
Asa, There is a subtle, parallel analogy here in relationship to "universal" in this dialog. For example, you and I were brought up to make red fox sets, without being over anal, to be what many refer to as clean freaks. The northern Midwest regions we trained in, that set site precaution was imperative. There is no way that I could get by with less where I trap compared to the success of those who do not have to bother with this precaution in different parts of the country.

I would not begin to engage in such a debate over human scent consciousness, because I have no capacity to process those regional differences in animal behavior. All that I know is that I have to be especially extra conscious of it in my methods.

Through some quirk of animal evolution, geography, and behavioral adaptation to their living/hunting habitats regionally, it seems like there would be differences in the "visibility" thesis that you espouse.

I really cannot debate this with you, or anyone else, because all of my red fox sets are in the "open" as your canine sets. The only exception in my experience is in making a dirt hole set right in the middle of a thick hedgerow for gray fox. I am not a coyote trapper, so I cannot relate to that aspect of canine trapping.

And, friend, I honor and respect all of your opinions - few of which I have occasion to disagree with. And, this is not one of them because we do it the same way. My comments were digested and keyed to the accounts from those who presented divergent philosophies and practices by comparison based on their respective regions - a personal interpretation from the experiences they presented.

Jonathan
_________________________
Jonathan
Basic Camera Gear: Canon EOS 50D with Canon EF 10-20mm, EF 28-135mm and EF 100-400mm lenses; Dutch Hill tripod with Wimberly Gimbal head.



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#440641 - 12/02/07 10:34 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: ]
ZekeMan Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 1658
Loc: NW Pennsylvania
I was enjoying this post until it turned into a verbal war of insults and name calling. I am observing ALL information. I have only caught one coyote my whole life. I would love to catch a bunch more. I am surprised at some of the outbursts from people who I've read about in trapping magazines since I was a little kid. These are ones who I've considered to be trapping idols of mine. I am not sure what to think about all of this. C'mon guys,if you must direct an insult at someone, do it in a pm. There are young trappers on here who who idolize many of you, and to see these negative remarks will be a huge dissappointment to them. Hope this doesn't offend. Just a fan who is surprised and dissappointed.


Edited by ZekeMan (12/02/07 10:53 AM)
_________________________
NOTE TO VEGETARIANS: My food poops on your food! Enjoy your salad!!!

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#440669 - 12/02/07 10:49 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Nick C
Unregistered


 Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
When possible it is best to keep coyote and red fox set out away, say 25 feet or so from backings that obstruct their view from looking around in every direction before lowering their guard to investigate the set and lure.


 Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
However, with all due respect I don't see any obstructions to view in any one of the pictures, all I see is normal every day set locations, most are set with common sense right in the edge of a field with good visibility in every direction. Ace


I need some clarification.

In Charles's Pictures and most of Gary's PIctures. It's obvious they can't see in every direction for 25-30 feet.

Then you agreed that those are indeed good, every day locations.

What exactly is an obstruction of view, in your opinion, if those don't count?

Honestly?

Please do not copy and paste an excerpt from your Dad's writings. I want to know what you think, as I'm confused, and need some clarification.

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#440688 - 12/02/07 11:01 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: ]
trapper72 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/22/06
Posts: 1493
Loc: NY
 Quote:
What exactly is an obstruction of view


A brick wall three feet high twenty feet long.

I believe what Asa is talking about as obstructed view is a downed tree three feet in diameter in the middle or edge of an opening, I dramatic rise or hump in the ground something like a dump truck load of spoils on a hedge row.
_________________________
~Another sig that had served it's purpose~

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#440723 - 12/02/07 11:26 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: trapper72]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5959
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
If you are referring to me, Sorry ZekeMan, It would be nice if I could ever be allowed to comment on any aspect of trapping without getting a negative response from the same few people. I've been on this forum for 8 or 9 years and there is at least one memeber that has disagreed with every single piece of advice from my experiences I can think of that I ever offered to help a novice trapper. Even a peace loving fellow like me can be driven to the breaking point and have it up to the ears. Many times I have spent a half hour or more thinking and typing of ways to help a trapper with his question and make it understandable only to instantly have the whole thread diverted to defending myself and the subject being completely twisted from it origin. Sometimes those negative answers may have be justified as I may have been misunderstood for not making my point clearly enough. However, most instances are simple diatribe and harassment. My apologies ZekeMan and others who feel the same way, I should know better than to reply at all to certain personalities and let the trappers simply weigh it out in the balance even if they are novive trappers being confused by it all. Ace

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#440732 - 12/02/07 11:37 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Asa Lenon]
Aaron Proffitt Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 1931
Loc: Cimmaron Trail
 Originally Posted By: Asa Lenon
If you are referring to me, Sorry ZekeMan, It would be nice if I could ever be allowed to comment on any aspect of trapping without getting a negative response from the same few people. I've been on this forum for 8 or 9 years and there is at least one memeber that has disagreed with every single piece of advice from my experiences I can think of that I ever offered to help a novice trapper. Even a peace loving fellow like me can be driven to the breaking point and have it up to the ears. Many times I have spent a half hour or more thinking and typing of ways to help a trapper with his question and make it understandable only to instantly have the whole thread diverted to defending myself and the subject being completely twisted from it origin. Sometimes those negative answers may have be justified as I may have been misunderstood for not making my point clearly enough. However, most instances are simple diatribe and harassment. My apologies ZekeMan and others who feel the same way, I should know better than to reply at all to certain personalities and let the trappers simply weigh it out in the balance even if they are novive trappers being confused by it all. Ace


It doesn't always have to be about you,ya know. ;)I've been following this thread and I thought things were civil.
In any case,think maye your taking it a 'lil personal.
_________________________
Does a dyslexic,insomniac, agnostic lie awake at night wondering if there really is a Dog ?

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#440755 - 12/02/07 11:58 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Aaron Proffitt]
Gary Offline
trapper

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 12915
Loc: Indiana, 15 1/4yrs old
asa no disrespect for you and ya dad's methods .... but i read that you must be out in the open to catch canines, and set only on level ground for many years growing up ... this lead me to go out of my way and pass up great set locations cuzz EVERYTHING wasnt textbook perfect ... i pass on what i have learned so the young people wont make the same mistakes i did .... im not saying you are wrong and the few of us that agree that canines can be caught in thicker stuff are right .... just that it works for me ..... sum of these pix arent the best .... but here are a couple yotes IN the corn ... remake ... IN the corn .... not at the edge .... red in a narrow spot in high weeds red next to a HUGE uprooted tree ... ya can see part of a root on the lefthand side ... no way he was seein over it red in a grown up field setting in a narrow strip between two HIGH brush/corn area
_________________________
Possums and fanged beaver Skeer Me frown

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#440756 - 12/02/07 11:58 AM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Aaron Proffitt]
ZekeMan Offline
trapper

Registered: 04/19/07
Posts: 1658
Loc: NW Pennsylvania
Asa........ I will still value your input, as I always have. I just was surprized a little. I know a lot of young people who look up to you as a trapper. As an adult, I can understand being pushed to a breaking point. Some of the younger people who idolize you may not understand. I have faced the same junk from users before. As you said, it always seems to be the same few. I sincerely apologize if you were offended or hurt it any way by my response. That wasn't my intentions. Just trying to look out for the young trappers who don't have the life experience to rationalize that type of situation on their own. I look forward to reading your posts, because I need all the help I can get! LOL!
_________________________
NOTE TO VEGETARIANS: My food poops on your food! Enjoy your salad!!!

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#440765 - 12/02/07 12:08 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: Gary]
Aaron Proffitt Offline
trapper

Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 1931
Loc: Cimmaron Trail
 Originally Posted By: Gary
... this lead me to go out of my way and pass up great set locations cuzz EVERYTHING wasnt textbook perfect


EXACTLY !! Very well said ,Gary.
I used to have alot of those old trapping books when I was a kid and tried to follow 'em to the letter.And it was frustrating.Only when I began to add a little salt to my reads did things really turn productive.
Hard gained experience trumps the theoretical everytime.
_________________________
Does a dyslexic,insomniac, agnostic lie awake at night wondering if there really is a Dog ?

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#440783 - 12/02/07 12:17 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: ZekeMan]
Asa Lenon Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/23/06
Posts: 5959
Loc: Gulliver, Michigan
Zeke Man: Thank you for your reply.

Gary: No one ever said one couldn't catch coyotes with sets made up against large backings that obstruct viewing. What I'm saying and my Dad was saying in his tips booklet is that given a choice I would choose the open spot for the possibly wary canines that are too jittery to lower their heads unless they can see around clearly in every direction for 25-30 feet or so. As my Dad pointed out, keeping sets out in the open has two other advantages also, offering better set visibility and eye appeal should the prevailing wind direction be blowing the lure's odor in the opposite direction of the anticipated approach of the animal and also that if a wary canine does its cautious sniffing back aways from a set they can see clearly from back 25-30 feet they are less apt to detect any possible adverse trap odor and dig at it or avoid stepping on it. These are just small details Gary, but as I always say "its the small details that add up to maximum numbers one by one by one". Of course one is going to make connections as long as there are animals there in the vicinity to trap, sets are made and positioned properly, lures are used appropriately, etc. Everything else about adding numbers relies in application of the lesser details. Think about it Gary, there has to be a reason why some trappers are always and consistently more successful than other trappers in their region. One reason could be they work harder at it and the other is the methodical usage and application of small factors/details incorporated into their trapping routine. Ace

PS-Here is a copy and paste from my first post in this thread that was personally attacked, does anyone see anything in my reply that should spark personal negative replies or anything in the advice that would be detrimental to a trapper's success whatever geographical location they may trap in?

Good advice from stevenr. When possible it is best to keep coyote and red fox set out away, say 25 feet or so from backings that obstruct their view from looking around in every direction before lowering their guard to investigate the set and lure. As stevenr stated, a smaller backing like a hump, rock, etc they can see over keeps the canine from possibly investigating from the backside. I have seen trappers who were trapping tight to large obstructions and catching nothing go to regular harvesting by moving their sets out a few feet into the open and adhering to this simple rule. Obstructions to veiwing do not seem to affect grey fox the same way from my limited experience with the grey fox, having moved into my region in recent years. Ace

Please note that I stated "When possible" it is the best policy. That is my opinion from my own personal experiences and I reaffirm that opinion. Of cours I've broken that rule of my own, circumstances change anything once in a while. I've made hundreds of sets at embankments and other large backings if it was my only choice and caught hundreds of animal doing so. However, that does not alter the fact that a good proven policy isn't a good policy. Given a choice, for example I can't imagine one making a set in the middle of a thicket so thick it could hardly be trampled through if there was an open spot 25 feet away. That is all i'm saying Gary and others. Good trapping! Ace


Edited by Asa Lenon (12/02/07 12:38 PM)

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#440785 - 12/02/07 12:18 PM Re: K-9 trap placement??? [Re: ZekeMan]
inline50 Offline
trapper

Registered: 12/25/06
Posts: 1510
Loc: carroll county, IL.
we all need to stick together, or we fall apart. Whether it's asa,charles, paul, gary,k9 nick,jim,bob,larry, ext. TAKE IN THERE ADVISE ,try there methods and see whitch one works for you. Heck even try some new methods,if it works then you to can be giving advise on here. I've learned a lot on here.even though I'm 42 years old and trapped since i was 10 , not a pro by all means but i have a ball doing so. Now i have kids and a nephew that love to go on the line with us and they have a ball also.So i guess we are doing something right. We might not catch the big no#'s that some do but we still enjoy it.
LETS ALL GET TOGETHER AND HAVE A BIG OL' PARTY!!!!!!
TIM
_________________________
take a child hunting,fishing,or trapping today and you won't have to hunt the streets for them tomorrow!!!!!

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