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Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4395531
03/24/14 11:32 AM
03/24/14 11:32 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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HD_Wildlife  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
Originally Posted By: Throw Back
California law states that a trapped animal must be either euthanized or released on sight. They dont want animals being relocated to prevent the spread of disease. Do any of you trap animals, make exclusions and then choose to release them?


I do this Throw Back. I think the clients calling though do shape the outcome. With anything but a skunk most folks aren't quite as quick to say it has to be euthanized, however with skunks most folks tell me "I'll call you back" and of course they never do.

I have 90% homes that are made of stucco, adobe, etc... and since I don't have tree squirrels with most wildlife species I get called for I can indeed do what you are asking and it hasn't caused me grief in terms of re-entry.

I personally prefer this method of either using 1 way excluders (coontroller and the like) or as you stated if need be live trap, seal that last area and then release.

The most tricky thing in my book is due to maternity issues, but these require more investigation and special circumstance anyway.

Ultimately most (90%+) on this forum if not more are going to say "no" because they either have experience with the grief it has caused in re-entry, or because philosophically it is leaving that animal you know will go right next door if it can't get into the house you blocked it from (of course we all know this happens with any other wildlife (birds, bats, etc...) that we exclude without euthanasia, so it seems more a matter of personal decision as most things are in this field.

I say if you can, do! If it doesn't work for you, then don't! smile

Last year I did have folks take me up on the skunk exclusion without removal and they all were happy and satisfied and there have been no problems.

I used coontrollers combined with trail cams so I had positive proof of exit, also on a side note, had proof that when they came back and things were shut, they didn't go bananas and rip it open. However, I was able to crawl into the crawl spaces and verify they had no young yet, thus no burning need to get inside.

Good luck!

Justin

Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4395858
03/24/14 04:17 PM
03/24/14 04:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2
WESTCHESTER, NEW YORK
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WILDCHILD1976 Offline
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WILDCHILD1976  Offline
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WESTCHESTER, NEW YORK
Before I get started I just want to mention that this particular subject and reply to this thread are not up for debate, and or posted for any controversy. It is simply my view point, and my view point a lone. But I think it has to be presented since we as professionals have the responsibility to do what is best scientifically, and based on facts we are provided by the CDC, along with the knowledge we acquire along the way of trapping nuisance wildlife day in and day out. So with that being said here is my take on releasing on site, and my rules of doing business with a customer who has the choice to do business with another company if they dont like my rules.

On my invoice there is a section that states the warranty, and how it works. The warranty states that I am responsible for the work I provide, and the work the specific points of entry that i sealed off. The customer is provided info on all the areas that could be an issue other than the main entry points. If they decide not to have them sealed for additional money then those points of concern are not covered under the warranty. If the animals get back in under those areas of concern, it is considered a new job and full pricing applies.

The warranty also states that it is only a warranty on the work that is done if, and only if the job is done the way that I see fit, and there is no warranty on my work if the animals are released onsite. I have multiple areas to release animals and signed permission to do so. But I have opted not to release any wildlife that I catch besides not targets, that are #1 not Rabies Vector Species, #2 the obvious domestic animals.

I am way to busy to drive around and let animals go, Any animal that is trapped or captured from inside a dwelling other than a bat (RVS) in a home or bedroom ect..., not a crawl space or attic is euthanized and tested as protocol by the health department.

Releasing animals onsight, regardless of how the home owner feels about it, just isnt going to happen, because i am just not wiling to do the work. It is a waste of my time and their own time to do this. Food, water shelter. Nuisance animals living inside a dwelling with heat and insulation is for sure the most cozy place they have ever lived in. It is also learned behavior... Once an animal calls that home it is always home. If it isnt the customers home it is the neighbors home. Squirrels although not RVS cause tremendous damage, and for sure will find another house to get into. I euthanize everything. Especially skunks and raccoons.

I know for a fact that other ADC companies claim to, and some do release all the wildlife that they catch. It is illegal since most dont have any permission to do so on private land, 2. It is the most irresponsible thing that an ADC professional can do. I catch hundreds and hundreds of animals on an annual basis. If I were to release all of these animals what would that do?

Im releasing a tremendous amount of dangerous or potentially dangerous animals into areas of suburbia that have little or no room as it is to handle additional wildlife. For all the guys releasing raccoons and skunks in my area, 100's a year should just get outta this business. To create such an imbalance in RVS in one area is going to do one thing, and what is that??? PROMOTE the infection of RVS and also the possibility of these RVS transmitting the disease to humans in the process. There are so many other thing that are wrong with this scenario, but I leave it at my rules at the end of the day... It is my way, or no way at all...

JUST REMEMBER FOLKS WE DO THIS ALL DAY LONG, ALL DAY EVERY DAY. CUSTOMERS CANT EVEN BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND OR COMPREHEND WHAT WE KNOW, OR HAVE THE SLIGHTEST INCLINATION OF WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN WE LET THEM MAKE THE CHOICE OF WHAT HAPPENS AFTER CAPTURE, OPPOSED TO WHAT SHOULD BE DONE. CUSTOMER FEELINGS, OVER SCIENTIFIC FACTS HAVE NO PLACE IN THE ADC WORLD, NONE WHAT SO EVER. THERE IS NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN THE WORLD FOR ME TO LET THE CUSTOMER MAKE THESE DECISIONS FOR ME. ITS MY JOB, AT THEIR HOUSE WITH MY RULES. OTHER WISE CALL THAT GUY WHO WHO NAMED HIS COMPANY THE FRIENDLY TRAPPER WITH A HEART.

AGAIN... THESE ARE JUST MY RULES. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT I NEED TO HEAR OR CIRCUMSTANCES TO CONSIDER ANYTHING DIFFERENTLY. CONSIDER MY WORDS, AND THATS ALL.


ON THE ROAD OF LIFE YOU HAVE PASSENGERS AND YOU HAVE DRIVERS. MY TRUCK IS ENTIRELY CONSUMED WITH TRAP EQUIP. ALL BUT THE DRIVER`S SEAT!
Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4396118
03/24/14 06:55 PM
03/24/14 06:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
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Paul Winkelmann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin

WILDCHILD, While I think a rebuttal on some of your post is necessary, I think that to do it properly would take a column. So I'm going to put it in my column in WCT. On the bright side, if you have never had a subscription, just send my your name, address, and E-mail, and you can read what I have to say free of charge. ( Just like on T-Man )

Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4396183
03/24/14 07:29 PM
03/24/14 07:29 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
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NM
Wildchild, Just wanted some clarification on a few points if you have time.


"Any animal that is trapped or captured from inside a dwelling other than a bat (RVS) in a home or bedroom ect..., not a crawl space or attic is euthanized and tested as protocol by the health department."

Does the NYS health department test all nuisance wildlife caught inside of homes including attics and crawlspaces and walls where no human exposure is known to have occurred?

"I know for a fact that other ADC companies claim to, and some do release all the wildlife that they catch. It is illegal since most dont have any permission to do so on private land, 2. It is the most irresponsible thing that an ADC professional can do. I catch hundreds and hundreds of animals on an annual basis. If I were to release all of these animals what would that do?"

I'm assuming you are saying it is illegal for them to release on land without landowner permission, not that releasing on site where caught is illegal?

Which part is the most irresponsible thing that an ADC professional can do, simply releasing on site or releasing on land they don't have permission for?


"Im releasing a tremendous amount of dangerous or potentially dangerous animals into areas of suburbia that have little or no room as it is to handle additional wildlife. For all the guys releasing raccoons and skunks in my area, 100's a year should just get outta this business. To create such an imbalance in RVS in one area is going to do one thing, and what is that??? PROMOTE the infection of RVS and also the possibility of these RVS transmitting the disease to humans in the process. There are so many other thing that are wrong with this scenario, but I leave it at my rules at the end of the day... It is my way, or no way at all... "

You are stating the folks who release on site are creating an imbalance?

You are stating emphatically that being in a rabies vector state or working with rabies vector species means you must kill what you catch or you spread or enhance the chance of "dangerous or potentially dangerous" animals into the area, however removing healthy animals does not reduce the spread of the rabies virus, the only things that do reduce the rabies virus are ORV programs as they've done in your state and up and down the east coast and over in TX, animals dying as the disease runs through the population as it does.

Catching healthy animals or animals simply exploiting human habitation and structures and believing that killing them is reducing the risk of rabies overall in an area is not sound logic and is not proven logic in any scientific publication.

People have been trying for decades now to remove or reduce the threat of large rabies occurrences with some success, however this was with millions of dollars spent on ORV, not by trapping and removal by private companies.

Does reducing animal populations reduce the potential for vectoring, sure the same way flying with 5 people in a 747 would be better than flying with 100 in there during flu season, however it is not a simple straight line and it seems you are saying that if the animal is a rabies vector it should die just because it has the potential to contract the disease, if I'm wrong about what you are saying feel free to clarify.

You are stating CDC is telling us as an industry to kill wildlife that are rabies vectors, I've been trained at the CDC facility in Atlanta, GA and have spent many many field seasons on rabies surveillance projects before beginning this career.

I think too that your final statements in bold ultimately are stating that anyone not killing the offending wildlife species is doing so simply because the owners doesn't want it done because they are kind hearted or soft and don't understand the world of wildlife, however I don't consider not killing a humane act, it is simply an option when the exclusion process being conducted is sound and will not cause more problems for the people as I don't want to come back anymore than you or anyone else does to have their work shown as fallible.

****

If I missed something in what I'm asking feel free to throw it in here, I just see a post that says "rabies, rabies, rabies, rabies, did I mention rabies..."

If rabies were causing animals to attack people in their homes on a daily basis or even weekly we'd see a lot more policies than we all currently live with.

The primary issue is not relocating potential rabies vectors which as you know happens daily in the entire lower 48......

Justin

Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4396235
03/24/14 07:45 PM
03/24/14 07:45 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
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Paul Winkelmann Offline
trapper
Paul Winkelmann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
See, I told you. Justin used darn near a column and he didn't touch on some things.

Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4397288
03/25/14 10:20 AM
03/25/14 10:20 AM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2
WESTCHESTER, NEW YORK
W
WILDCHILD1976 Offline
trapper
WILDCHILD1976  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2
WESTCHESTER, NEW YORK
HD

Like I said. Its how I do things. Its my business so ur logic and my logic are different. And your wrong about many things you are picking apart. If you want to discuss things or have an oppinion you can PM me.

Bats in a dwelling are caught euthanized and handed over to the board of health for testing. Thats protocol, and for my licensing requirements, thats what I have to do.

And you just need to use your head a bit.
You are stating emphatically that being in a rabies vector state or working with rabies vector species means you must kill what you catch or you spread or enhance the chance of "dangerous or potentially dangerous" animals into the area, however removing healthy animals does not reduce the spread of the rabies virus, the only things that do reduce the rabies virus are ORV programs as they've done in your state and up and down the east coast and over in TX, animals dying as the disease runs through the population as it does.

Removing any animal healthy or not reduces the potential of that species coming into contact with each other. That means if you catch an infected animal that you assume is healthy because it is in the very first stages of being infected. Lets say 60 min before it ends up in your trap. And since neither you or me, or anyone else besides a qualified lab can determine if an animal has rabies or other infectious diseases. Then your assumptions is exactly what I mentioned. Irresponsible. You can post all the rhetoric and statistics and opinion, you would like. But at the end of the day, based on my experience, and based on my poor judgement calls in the past making assumptions on things i am #1 no longer willing to do while running MY BUSINESS, NOT YOUR BUSINESS, and #2. You are correct... It is a bold statement, and it is how I feel. But it really doesnt pertain to you one bit. Besides a yeh or neh for my oppinion. You live in NM I live in NYS 30 miles from Manhattan. So considering that my populations, and demographics, and wildlife populations have nothing to do with your area, then most like what I am talking about has nothing to do with the business you run. Just a thought


ON THE ROAD OF LIFE YOU HAVE PASSENGERS AND YOU HAVE DRIVERS. MY TRUCK IS ENTIRELY CONSUMED WITH TRAP EQUIP. ALL BUT THE DRIVER`S SEAT!
Re: Do you release on site? [Re: WILDCHILD1976] #4397334
03/25/14 11:06 AM
03/25/14 11:06 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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HD_Wildlife  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
Originally Posted By: WILDCHILD1976
HD

Like I said. Its how I do things. Its my business so ur logic and my logic are different. And your wrong about many things you are picking apart. If you want to discuss things or have an oppinion you can PM me.

Bats in a dwelling are caught euthanized and handed over to the board of health for testing. Thats protocol, and for my licensing requirements, thats what I have to do.

And you just need to use your head a bit.

Removing any animal healthy or not reduces the potential of that species coming into contact with each other. That means if you catch an infected animal that you assume is healthy because it is in the very first stages of being infected. Lets say 60 min before it ends up in your trap. And since neither you or me, or anyone else besides a qualified lab can determine if an animal has rabies or other infectious diseases. Then your assumptions is exactly what I mentioned. Irresponsible. You can post all the rhetoric and statistics and opinion, you would like. But at the end of the day, based on my experience, and based on my poor judgement calls in the past making assumptions on things i am #1 no longer willing to do while running MY BUSINESS, NOT YOUR BUSINESS, and #2. You are correct... It is a bold statement, and it is how I feel. But it really doesnt pertain to you one bit. Besides a yeh or neh for my oppinion. You live in NM I live in NYS 30 miles from Manhattan. So considering that my populations, and demographics, and wildlife populations have nothing to do with your area, then most like what I am talking about has nothing to do with the business you run. Just a thought


Wildchild,

I agree with a couple of things you state 1000% percent.

1) it's your business not mine so you do as you please within your states laws.

2) no one can tell if an animal is rabid or about to be without absolute lab testing affirmation.

.......

Bats just to be clear we're not part of this thread, throw back specifically referred to animals we trap which largely is going to be raccoon and skunk and others. No mention of animals coming into contact with the public or having exposure yet lots of rabies concern from your thread.

When I see disease mentioned as the reason for all animals being out down I feel obliged to state this has no scientific merit. I am not questioning you deciding for liability reasons that you don't release on site, that is up to you as the operator. My statements regarding release on site are related to exclusion being performed first not simply catch an release which I see no one in their right mind doing.

There are dozens of published peer reviewed publications that show you can't kill your way out of a disease in wildlife populations though folks often try. It is bad science and always proves out to be in the end.

I never said you or anyone shouldn't do as tey please within the law, but rabies and urban areas doesn't change my opinion. I grew up in NYS lived there 26 years, have lived and worked all over the country doesn't change the facts about rabies.

I'll leave it at that,

Justin


Amendment - I wasn't trying to offend when I said "bold" statement, I was referring to the use of all capital letters, not that you were being bold or overbold in your statement. Just wanted to clarify that.


Last edited by HD_Wildlife; 03/25/14 11:26 AM.
Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4397868
03/25/14 04:54 PM
03/25/14 04:54 PM
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
P
Paul Winkelmann Offline
trapper
Paul Winkelmann  Offline
trapper
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,361
mequon, wisconsin
WILDCHILD,Please do not stop what you are doing! There are very few people that have been criticized more than me for what they know is true. The hard part for all of us is believing that different parts of our country can get away with things that you and I would probably never even attempt.

Justin has no grey squirrels and Ron Jones ( Jonesie ) has grey squirrels that probably know his entire family! I wouldn't know a mole if it bit me in the nose, but I would bet that very few on here have wrestled as many raccoons into submission as I have. This is not bragging; it just shows my lack of education.

What I am trying to say is that I have never given up just because a majority of the readers have disagreed with me. On the contrary, this gave me the opportunity to prove that I was correct and that perhaps, someone else could learn from my experiences. Keep up the posts, we need people with a strong attitude!

Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4397875
03/25/14 04:58 PM
03/25/14 04:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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HD_Wildlife  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
Paul I would say actually that he is in the majority not the minority.

Don't feel anyone shouldn't feel free always to declare their opinions or how they believe in what they do.

Forum is basically just that, an open discussion and debate.

smile

Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4398499
03/25/14 10:17 PM
03/25/14 10:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2
WESTCHESTER, NEW YORK
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WILDCHILD1976 Offline
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WILDCHILD1976  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2
WESTCHESTER, NEW YORK
Paul thanks for the concern. Gentlemen its all good. Sorry if it sounded defensive. And yes maybe I didnt stay exactly on the subject.

HD- you mention skunks and raccoons being the main factors in the conversation which throwback originally stated in the thread he started. I may have slightly veered toward bats on the tangent I was on, but the main points of my discussion were skunks and raccoons. It wasn't really much to do with bats but you chose to need clarification on the small bat segment, with in a skunk and raccoon thread. I have no intentions of trapping my way outta disease, nor do I need peer written articles or scientific data to confirm what I have learned in the area I conduct a majority of my business, and these areas specifically.

I respect the fact that you have done work around the country, and that you have been in business for so long, obviously what you do works for you and I commend that. I have lived in NYS for 37 years and I can tell you I have witnessed pieces of property be reduced to 1/3 its size. Populations are increasing at a rapid rate, especially post 911. NYS is a huge area with primarily rural and suburban demographics. But here in Westchester county 30 mi. from manhattan it is stacked with people upon people. It has definitely changed to beyond recognition to even 10 years ago.

For me releasing skunks and raccoons just isnt an option. I dont have enough room in my F150 for all the cages, to have the animals contaminating my equipment any more then it is already is... And still get it all done in the fashion I need to get it done to run a successful business.

But this is not the reason I choose to dispatch everything. Dead animals dont come back and that I know 100%. That means that this animal will not get back into my customers place, they wont get back into a neighbors house. And to many times when I started the business the animals harass the customer regardless of if they can get back in or not. If I drive around during the summer time around any housing development there are an unbelievable amount of skunks, and raccoons roaming around with little to any fear of humans, why is that? Because the population here is completely horrified of wildlife.

Young kids have no idea the danger they are in when the animals are so close, and the natural fear of humans is basically non existent. With what I have said thus far is just the beginning of my reasoning. So the main reason I choose to euthanize is that 100% this animal will be a non issue, for any of the reasons me or you can come up with, besides a stench....

To clarify the bold aspect... That was correct... I am bold, and I am confident that my reasoning is no shot in the dark, and although I do not have your experience working and conducting nuisance work around the country, I am well rounded as an outdoorsman, and there has never been an instant that I went into a new neck of the woods in other states, and or other country's where I could not attain my goal fishing, hunting or trapping. If you are a trapper and understand the art of trapping, fishing and hunting is a piece of cake.

My post was clear from the get go that I didnt want to get into the debating aspect of this, simply because my reasons, are not what another operators issues are. What I should have clarified was that I was talking specifically about my county. These rules I hold myself to are solely for this area. And it really gets under my skin that there are operators who release animals offsite and introduce an imbalance of animal populations that has no benefit to anyone, or anything else beside their own agenda. The reason that they do not release animals on site is they want to appease the customer, and they cant figure out a way to keep them out. And they for sure dont want to get a call from a job they have already been paid on... Hence irresponsible.. AGAIN this is just my opinion based on my experience, where I conduct my business.

I APOLOGIZE for any confusion, and I can see now how it could be misinterpreted. But believe me HD I have thick skin, I also know that my entire life has been dedicated to the top 3. I have experience and in depth experience hunting big game, small game, predator hunting. Hunting over hounds for big game and small game, training hounds, I consult for a nationwide hound and horse, fox hunting club. I went to SUNY Cobbleskill for Fish and wildlife mgt. I fish for everything and anything I have a chance too. That includes panfish, smallmouth, large mouth walleye, pike, norlunge, trout salmon stream, river, lake or pond every method I have time to apply. Big Game fish for marlin tuna mako, thresher. Giant tuna. All bottom fish in numbers and I like to eat native to where I have a chance to fish. I have hounds I hunt hares and cottontails over. I love to archery hunt, I kill a book buck every year, or I dont kill one at all. Specific animals. My best friend and salt water mentor has personally fished with Tred Barter on multiple occasions, his father was on the boat and fishing trip that Tred Barter set the IGFA Big Eye Tuna record of 19 Big Eye Tuna over 200lbs. Im so color blind I cant track blood, so im a good shot LOL... But can track bucks regardless of if they bleed since I have no choice. That goes for any game i am after or quest i am on. And none of this luck, and none of this was done on the job, but in the wild.

I do research and conduct my own studies regarding photo periods, ambient air temperatures, water temperatures, and the effect it has on fish, and wildlife behavior, gestation periods, torpor and anything else that helps me become a better and more knowledgeable student of ma nature. It was only natural for me to become an operator.

I mention all this for only one reason. My world and experience is way different than anyone else. This is not so much who I am, but what I am. I'm no better than the next man, and I base my actions and thought process on my experiences. I accredit your hard work and dedication to be in this field for so long, but the fact of the matter remains... I am not looking to change anyones mind or convince them that my way is the way to conduct the business that they run, including you. I do enjoy reading and hearing what everyone has to say. I am new here to trapperman, and thus far i have met some good people. I choose to read more than comment, regardless of whether I agree, or disagree. But I am not on here so much to debate, or defend what I do.. Simply cuz i'd rather spend my time learning not just here, but most likely on the water, with my hounds, or designing innovate products to make my job easier for me, and you alike.

Just an FYI its all good. I figure that I let it be known now that there is no love lost. I can be quite resourceful, I am approachable, I dont boast because i have nothing to prove and I am in no competition with anyone at all. Mr. Paul W. once again thank you for considering my feelings. And I am here to help, and learn, as well as teach anyone that wants to learn about anything I have mentioned above. I will do my best.... Thank you for your time..


ON THE ROAD OF LIFE YOU HAVE PASSENGERS AND YOU HAVE DRIVERS. MY TRUCK IS ENTIRELY CONSUMED WITH TRAP EQUIP. ALL BUT THE DRIVER`S SEAT!
Re: Do you release on site? [Re: Throw Back] #4398728
03/26/14 12:46 AM
03/26/14 12:46 AM
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 111
NM
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HD_Wildlife Offline
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Joined: Apr 2010
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NM
wildchild, well said and I am culpable for not seeing what you were trying to say in the first post you made. I took it the wrong way and therefore
we ended up down another road.

You statements about those folks running around telling the client one thing and dumping up the road I totally agree with, this is a very irresponsible thing, usually illegal and just plain unethical in terms of client relations in my book.

Also very much respect every bit of field time you note you spend. Though we both went to college for the wildlife management field, I'm sure you'd agree that the great amount of learning both at school and outside of it is in the field itself from the various creatures we pursue or study for one reason or another.

Though I come from upstate lake country of NYS, I have seen the massive shrinking even in the rural area I grew up in. The best rabbit hunting of my youth was a subdivision in the 80's and more exist now than before. I can't imagine how the area you are in must be. I also agree 1,000% that your average kids and adults in many of these areas simply don't understand anything about wildlife around them from the danger, to simply how nature works in terms of life and death.

I hope you will post more, as you write well, expressed yourself clearly and were willing to spend some time discussing and debating!

While I love NM, I do miss NYS and all my family and my extended family (friends since birth) are all there still in basically 2 counties. My NYS is farm/field and where I learned to fish, hunt and trap as well, only hounds I had were beagles, though they made life better in their own right!

Anyway, appreciate your responses and again, hope you'll be a frequent contributor as time and business allow...

Justin

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